• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:35
CEST 20:35
KST 03:35
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy4Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27
Community News
Classic & herO RO8 Interviews: "I think it’s time to teach [Rogue] a lesson."2Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey.8Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)14BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1
StarCraft 2
General
Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing How herO can make history in the Code S S2 finals Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey. Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2) Classic & herO RO8 Interviews: "I think it’s time to teach [Rogue] a lesson."
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals WardiTV Mondays Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps BW General Discussion Recent recommended BW games FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 4
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Best crypto recovery experts in the world Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 32925 users

[Q] PvZ FE Nexus before Forge

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 04:26:06
September 18 2010 03:42 GMT
#1
I played a PvZ recently where I dropped my Nexus before Forge at my expansion. It resulted in a really strange (and sloppy) macro game.

I am a mid-Plat Protoss player wondering if anyone in higher leagues has found this old-school build useful or viable.

PvZ Nexus FE

Some of my observations coming out of the game were:

1. The Zerg went for early speedlings and still did not disturb expo
2. It enticed the Z to cut drones and try a baneling bust
3. It takes more than 8 banelings (400/200) to kill a wall of 3 pylons in front of 2 cannons (600/0), with 1 cannon surviving (red health).
4. You can have 13 probes vs Zerg 16 drones (3 gas) and still keep up in minerals because you are on 2 base.

Now, please note that the game was sloppy on both ends, but my main question still stands. Does building a Nexus before Forge work for anyone, or is waiting until the Forge is down not delay the expansion significantly anyway?

Also, in light of the discussion about worker getting a +7% boost to mineral production with "shift-CC" commands, would an extra Nexus this early allow for a bigger boost?

Any replays of successful (or not) FE Nexus first gameplay would be helpful!

Thanks

VonLego
Profile Joined June 2010
United States519 Posts
September 18 2010 04:01 GMT
#2
The 7% boost would be very difficult to pull off at multiple locations, I wouldn't strive for that.

When are you building your first zealot? I'd be paranoid of the first dozen zerglings rocking my world.

I'll watch the replay with you put it up.
zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
September 18 2010 04:32 GMT
#3
I think the first zealot hits the field around 6 min. (Again this was a sloppy game for me, trying to get this build to work. I definitely need to tighten it up).

Utukka
Profile Joined September 2010
26 Posts
September 18 2010 04:33 GMT
#4
I think going nexus first is a bit to risky, lots of kids go for that early pool and from my experiences, I've been able to kill kids outright even with a 14 pool(depending on map). The possibility of drops and nydus canals are also another problem. Perhaps that I play random makes a substantial difference on many of the opening builds I face but if I'm P, a nexus first would be great if he doesn't fast pool and if he did hatch first, maybe not even make a forge. Would be a fun build to test out more tho I think you're better off with forge first or many of the other FEs that have been going on recently.

As for the boosting, it would definetly be helpful due to min lines being thin still tho most people probably can't maintain the speed to do them all without sacrificing their overall gameplay which makes those small amounts of minerals not worth it.
slained
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada966 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 04:42:24
September 18 2010 04:39 GMT
#5
I always expand nexus before forge, on LT is easy to wall off.

I'm a 1500+ protoss

Definitely going to shift heres a couple of my reps, ones against Idra which was a fun game but I didn't make enough stalkers at my push, shouldve expanded to gold like him. But its pretty safe if you wall off nice.

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]
zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
September 18 2010 04:42 GMT
#6
What about expanding on other maps, like the new one "Xelnaga Caverns. or perhaps Kulas Ravine. Both seem much more risky, as Utukka mentioned. Thanks for the replays.
slained
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada966 Posts
September 18 2010 04:45 GMT
#7
one xelnaga in there. ill find some more. I have a wall off on every map
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 04:50:15
September 18 2010 04:46 GMT
#8
NEXGenius pulled off a 15Nexus build in a game, I will hunt down the replay and edit with link.

[edit] Fruitseller vs NEXGeniuus on Metalopolis

Vertical positions.
Like a G6
zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
September 18 2010 05:07 GMT
#9
Just to clarify, I was thinking of FE with Nexus before Gateway or Forge
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
September 18 2010 08:39 GMT
#10
You can nexus before forge if you scout 14 hatch. I do it all the time.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
DarKFoRcE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1215 Posts
September 18 2010 08:39 GMT
#11
yes if you scout him in time nexus first is a pretty strong build on some maps (LT meta blistering scrap, not sure about others). if you play it blind its a little risky, but can still be played.
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
slained
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada966 Posts
September 18 2010 08:42 GMT
#12
Apologies for the misunderstanding of before gateway. I dont really do it often. But on scrap ive seen it done plenty of times. Its hard to do the 7% trick on 2 bases while scouting and adapting. You can barely get it done on 1 base with every worker
zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
September 18 2010 13:54 GMT
#13
No worries. I just tried another game where I attempted to do the 7% trick on two bases and, it is pretty much impossible at my stage.

Gotta work on my Sim City some more too!
zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
September 18 2010 19:36 GMT
#14
On a related note, I am working on a 10/Nexus 11/Forge build for PvZ. I have found that you can get your Nexus down by 1:45, right around the time a 13pool (+gas) is 1/4 the way done.

At 11, the forge and Nexus finish at the same time, and by the time the first 4-6 lings are out, you can have your first 2 cannons up. 1 of 2 things happens after this:

1. Zerg plants Natural

In this case, he is already behind because you can chrono boost out 2 probes at a time and your economy will still be greater from 12 supply onwards because you will have a 2nd base up for longer. Also, because Zerg usually invests 3 drones in early gas, you will be way ahead in mineral count.

2. Zerg rushes to Banelings/Roaches

I find roaches tougher than banelings in this regard, because a proper SimCity usually allows your cannons/units to survive. There is enough time to get out 4-5 Zealots (for clean up after the banelings hit your Gateway/Pylon/Forge) before 6-8 banelings arrive.

As for Roaches, your Cannon placement is crucial, and can be a very powerful lure. A very early rush of 4-6 lings and 4-5 Roaches can be held off by about 4 cannons (and you should have 1-2 zealots). Larger pushes that come around 8 min mark should give you enough time to get Stalkers, Sentries, etc...

I am still working on the details and cataloging results for rushes. It is tight, but I think 10/Nexus (though absolutely ballsy) may be doable.

BO:

Get to 10 probes ASAP, using boost immediately.
At 320 minerals, send probe to Nat and build Nexus
Keep probe there and build first pylon, then send as scout
11/Add Forge
13/2 cannons (and maynard 4 probes)
14/Pylon, cannon (high ground if possible), Pylon, Cannon
15/Gateway [should complete main part of SimCity

I found that the key is not to overbuild probes just because you have 2 nexi. Instead, 13-14 is the sweet spot vs. Zerg. At 13 probes on 2 bases, you will be ahead of a teching Zerg by 3 workers per mineral, which translates into a wide gap on the income tab (I think 100 points roughly).

Once your Gateway is up, figure out whether your opponent is expanding/teching/rushing (the last one is pretty obvious). If he is rushing, simply keep replacing pylons, cannons, and gateways as necessary (it is cost effective, don't worry). Get 4-5 zealots ready for the wave of Zerglings that your opponent will try to stream in after the Blings, or to attack roaches when they charge in.

If he is teching, tech with him: drop 4 assimilators and your cyber core, and start macroing heavily. Your macro advantage will win the day.

If he is expanding, pump probes and get a cybercore, then slowly tech. Establish about 6 warpgates and apply some pressure to make your opponent build spine crawlers (= less drones).

Well, most of you are much more skilled at taking advantage of a macro situation, so I won't go any further. I'll try and get some more replays up regarding the 10/Nexus 11/Forge soon.
mskaa
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark155 Posts
September 18 2010 19:55 GMT
#15
ive seen TTone do this, and ive tried it my self a few times.. It seems to just hold the normal 13 pool/gas that many zergs use.. Its 9 pylon, crono nexus 2 times, then nexus on 15.. Then a pylon, forge and gate, and cut probes if you need to. When forge is up, get a cannon at your ramp as a part of/behind the wall off. Have 6-8 probes hotkeyed at your expo to defend against the first 6 zergling, just to by time to get the cannon up.. Then crono out a zealot and put him in the mineral line. That makes it pretty hard for small numbers of zerglings to get any probe kills at all..I will see if i can get a replay up.
zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 20:22:50
September 18 2010 20:00 GMT
#16
Yeah, others have shared 9 pylon/15 nexus, but I am concerned specifically about 10/Pylon and its viability in comparison. I think planting the pylon first is safer, but I am wondering about this (perhaps crazier) alternative.
Warrior Madness
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada3791 Posts
September 19 2010 02:02 GMT
#17
I don't play protoss but I just gotta say that this is my favourite PvZ build. I've been toying around with this build for the past two days and I've beaten some pretty decent zerg with it surprisingly enough. This or some variation of forge FE will probably become a future standard. Once I wall myself in I get 3 stargates going asap and go for a VR/phoenix all in push (plus mass zealots). It's just really fun to do lol. One precaution I take is stealing the zerg's gas so he can't go for a 1 base roach nydus attack.
The Past: Yellow, Julyzerg, Chojja, Savior, GGplay -- The Present: Luxury, Jae- The Future: -Dong, maGma, Zero, Effort, Hoejja, hyvaa, by.hero, calm, Action ---> SC2 (Ret?? Kolll Idra!! SEN, Cool, ZergBong, Leenock)
Chronopolis
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1484 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-19 03:29:48
September 19 2010 03:06 GMT
#18
On September 19 2010 04:36 zaldinfox wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On a related note, I am working on a 10/Nexus 11/Forge build for PvZ. I have found that you can get your Nexus down by 1:45, right around the time a 13pool (+gas) is 1/4 the way done.

At 11, the forge and Nexus finish at the same time, and by the time the first 4-6 lings are out, you can have your first 2 cannons up. 1 of 2 things happens after this:

1. Zerg plants Natural

In this case, he is already behind because you can chrono boost out 2 probes at a time and your economy will still be greater from 12 supply onwards because you will have a 2nd base up for longer. Also, because Zerg usually invests 3 drones in early gas, you will be way ahead in mineral count.

2. Zerg rushes to Banelings/Roaches

I find roaches tougher than banelings in this regard, because a proper SimCity usually allows your cannons/units to survive. There is enough time to get out 4-5 Zealots (for clean up after the banelings hit your Gateway/Pylon/Forge) before 6-8 banelings arrive.

As for Roaches, your Cannon placement is crucial, and can be a very powerful lure. A very early rush of 4-6 lings and 4-5 Roaches can be held off by about 4 cannons (and you should have 1-2 zealots). Larger pushes that come around 8 min mark should give you enough time to get Stalkers, Sentries, etc...

I am still working on the details and cataloging results for rushes. It is tight, but I think 10/Nexus (though absolutely ballsy) may be doable.

BO:

Get to 10 probes ASAP, using boost immediately.
At 320 minerals, send probe to Nat and build Nexus
Keep probe there and build first pylon, then send as scout
11/Add Forge
13/2 cannons (and maynard 4 probes)
14/Pylon, cannon (high ground if possible), Pylon, Cannon
15/Gateway [should complete main part of SimCity

I found that the key is not to overbuild probes just because you have 2 nexi. Instead, 13-14 is the sweet spot vs. Zerg. At 13 probes on 2 bases, you will be ahead of a teching Zerg by 3 workers per mineral, which translates into a wide gap on the income tab (I think 100 points roughly).

Once your Gateway is up, figure out whether your opponent is expanding/teching/rushing (the last one is pretty obvious). If he is rushing, simply keep replacing pylons, cannons, and gateways as necessary (it is cost effective, don't worry). Get 4-5 zealots ready for the wave of Zerglings that your opponent will try to stream in after the Blings, or to attack roaches when they charge in.

If he is teching, tech with him: drop 4 assimilators and your cyber core, and start macroing heavily. Your macro advantage will win the day.

If he is expanding, pump probes and get a cybercore, then slowly tech. Establish about 6 warpgates and apply some pressure to make your opponent build spine crawlers (= less drones).

Well, most of you are much more skilled at taking advantage of a macro situation, so I won't go any further. I'll try and get some more replays up regarding the 10/Nexus 11/Forge soon
.


How do you scout the zerg tho, after you wall in?
MayorITC
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Korea (South)798 Posts
September 19 2010 03:25 GMT
#19
1400 Toss player here.

9 Pylon (scout)
16 Nexus (unless zerg is going 12 or less spawning pool)
16 Forge
17 Pylon (on Blistering Sands, Scrap Station make second pylon by breakable rocks)
18 Gateway
18 cannon
19 cannon (at other pylon for Blistering Sands, Scrap)

You should have a 1 space gap by your choke for a zealot to block (except on Blistering Sands; completely wall off by nat)

Check to make sure the Zerg player expanded as well. If he didn't, he is most likely either going for a baneling bust or a nydus canal into your main.
Chronopolis
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1484 Posts
September 19 2010 03:29 GMT
#20
On September 18 2010 13:39 slained wrote:
I always expand nexus before forge, on LT is easy to wall off.

I'm a 1500+ protoss

Definitely going to shift heres a couple of my reps, ones against Idra which was a fun game but I didn't make enough stalkers at my push, shouldve expanded to gold like him. But its pretty safe if you wall off nice.

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


I watched the 1st and 3rd replay, going to watch the idra one next, and the build was nothing short of fucking slick. As a ~1200 toss player who blows at pvz, I think this might be the savior. I never thought you could apply so much pressure with 1 gate zealot pump with 2 chrono's. I'm still wondering, how do you figure out what the opponent is up to. Or does it not really matter, when your pumping mostly gateway units.
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL: ProLeague
18:00
Bracket Stage - Day 4
Bonyth vs Dewalt
Cross vs Doodle
MadiNho vs Dragon
ZZZero.O274
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ZombieGrub374
mouzHeroMarine 234
IndyStarCraft 149
BRAT_OK 89
MindelVK 12
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 4309
Rain 2719
Horang2 1253
ZZZero.O 274
BeSt 151
Sacsri 57
sSak 40
Hyun 31
Killer 16
Terrorterran 8
Dota 2
Gorgc7685
League of Legends
Dendi2101
JimRising 430
Counter-Strike
fl0m5448
Foxcn371
flusha124
rGuardiaN71
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King170
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor756
Other Games
tarik_tv43322
gofns22123
FrodaN3510
summit1g2793
B2W.Neo932
Mlord811
C9.Mang0564
Beastyqt561
KnowMe185
TKL 133
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream13921
Other Games
gamesdonequick969
EGCTV891
BasetradeTV16
angryscii9
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• 3DClanTV 55
• HeavenSC 52
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV508
• Ler129
League of Legends
• Jankos3071
Other Games
• imaqtpie1272
• Shiphtur288
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
5h 25m
Wardi Open
16h 25m
Replay Cast
1d 5h
Replay Cast
1d 15h
RSL Revival
1d 15h
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
2 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Serral vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
Reynor vs Scarlett
ShoWTimE vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
SC Evo League
5 days
Circuito Brasileiro de…
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-11
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
BLAST Open Fall 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.