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[Q] PvZ FE Nexus before Forge

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 04:26:06
September 18 2010 03:42 GMT
#1
I played a PvZ recently where I dropped my Nexus before Forge at my expansion. It resulted in a really strange (and sloppy) macro game.

I am a mid-Plat Protoss player wondering if anyone in higher leagues has found this old-school build useful or viable.

PvZ Nexus FE

Some of my observations coming out of the game were:

1. The Zerg went for early speedlings and still did not disturb expo
2. It enticed the Z to cut drones and try a baneling bust
3. It takes more than 8 banelings (400/200) to kill a wall of 3 pylons in front of 2 cannons (600/0), with 1 cannon surviving (red health).
4. You can have 13 probes vs Zerg 16 drones (3 gas) and still keep up in minerals because you are on 2 base.

Now, please note that the game was sloppy on both ends, but my main question still stands. Does building a Nexus before Forge work for anyone, or is waiting until the Forge is down not delay the expansion significantly anyway?

Also, in light of the discussion about worker getting a +7% boost to mineral production with "shift-CC" commands, would an extra Nexus this early allow for a bigger boost?

Any replays of successful (or not) FE Nexus first gameplay would be helpful!

Thanks

VonLego
Profile Joined June 2010
United States519 Posts
September 18 2010 04:01 GMT
#2
The 7% boost would be very difficult to pull off at multiple locations, I wouldn't strive for that.

When are you building your first zealot? I'd be paranoid of the first dozen zerglings rocking my world.

I'll watch the replay with you put it up.
zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
September 18 2010 04:32 GMT
#3
I think the first zealot hits the field around 6 min. (Again this was a sloppy game for me, trying to get this build to work. I definitely need to tighten it up).

Utukka
Profile Joined September 2010
26 Posts
September 18 2010 04:33 GMT
#4
I think going nexus first is a bit to risky, lots of kids go for that early pool and from my experiences, I've been able to kill kids outright even with a 14 pool(depending on map). The possibility of drops and nydus canals are also another problem. Perhaps that I play random makes a substantial difference on many of the opening builds I face but if I'm P, a nexus first would be great if he doesn't fast pool and if he did hatch first, maybe not even make a forge. Would be a fun build to test out more tho I think you're better off with forge first or many of the other FEs that have been going on recently.

As for the boosting, it would definetly be helpful due to min lines being thin still tho most people probably can't maintain the speed to do them all without sacrificing their overall gameplay which makes those small amounts of minerals not worth it.
slained
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada966 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 04:42:24
September 18 2010 04:39 GMT
#5
I always expand nexus before forge, on LT is easy to wall off.

I'm a 1500+ protoss

Definitely going to shift heres a couple of my reps, ones against Idra which was a fun game but I didn't make enough stalkers at my push, shouldve expanded to gold like him. But its pretty safe if you wall off nice.

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]
zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
September 18 2010 04:42 GMT
#6
What about expanding on other maps, like the new one "Xelnaga Caverns. or perhaps Kulas Ravine. Both seem much more risky, as Utukka mentioned. Thanks for the replays.
slained
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada966 Posts
September 18 2010 04:45 GMT
#7
one xelnaga in there. ill find some more. I have a wall off on every map
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 04:50:15
September 18 2010 04:46 GMT
#8
NEXGenius pulled off a 15Nexus build in a game, I will hunt down the replay and edit with link.

[edit] Fruitseller vs NEXGeniuus on Metalopolis

Vertical positions.
Like a G6
zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
September 18 2010 05:07 GMT
#9
Just to clarify, I was thinking of FE with Nexus before Gateway or Forge
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
September 18 2010 08:39 GMT
#10
You can nexus before forge if you scout 14 hatch. I do it all the time.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
DarKFoRcE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1215 Posts
September 18 2010 08:39 GMT
#11
yes if you scout him in time nexus first is a pretty strong build on some maps (LT meta blistering scrap, not sure about others). if you play it blind its a little risky, but can still be played.
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
slained
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada966 Posts
September 18 2010 08:42 GMT
#12
Apologies for the misunderstanding of before gateway. I dont really do it often. But on scrap ive seen it done plenty of times. Its hard to do the 7% trick on 2 bases while scouting and adapting. You can barely get it done on 1 base with every worker
zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
September 18 2010 13:54 GMT
#13
No worries. I just tried another game where I attempted to do the 7% trick on two bases and, it is pretty much impossible at my stage.

Gotta work on my Sim City some more too!
zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
September 18 2010 19:36 GMT
#14
On a related note, I am working on a 10/Nexus 11/Forge build for PvZ. I have found that you can get your Nexus down by 1:45, right around the time a 13pool (+gas) is 1/4 the way done.

At 11, the forge and Nexus finish at the same time, and by the time the first 4-6 lings are out, you can have your first 2 cannons up. 1 of 2 things happens after this:

1. Zerg plants Natural

In this case, he is already behind because you can chrono boost out 2 probes at a time and your economy will still be greater from 12 supply onwards because you will have a 2nd base up for longer. Also, because Zerg usually invests 3 drones in early gas, you will be way ahead in mineral count.

2. Zerg rushes to Banelings/Roaches

I find roaches tougher than banelings in this regard, because a proper SimCity usually allows your cannons/units to survive. There is enough time to get out 4-5 Zealots (for clean up after the banelings hit your Gateway/Pylon/Forge) before 6-8 banelings arrive.

As for Roaches, your Cannon placement is crucial, and can be a very powerful lure. A very early rush of 4-6 lings and 4-5 Roaches can be held off by about 4 cannons (and you should have 1-2 zealots). Larger pushes that come around 8 min mark should give you enough time to get Stalkers, Sentries, etc...

I am still working on the details and cataloging results for rushes. It is tight, but I think 10/Nexus (though absolutely ballsy) may be doable.

BO:

Get to 10 probes ASAP, using boost immediately.
At 320 minerals, send probe to Nat and build Nexus
Keep probe there and build first pylon, then send as scout
11/Add Forge
13/2 cannons (and maynard 4 probes)
14/Pylon, cannon (high ground if possible), Pylon, Cannon
15/Gateway [should complete main part of SimCity

I found that the key is not to overbuild probes just because you have 2 nexi. Instead, 13-14 is the sweet spot vs. Zerg. At 13 probes on 2 bases, you will be ahead of a teching Zerg by 3 workers per mineral, which translates into a wide gap on the income tab (I think 100 points roughly).

Once your Gateway is up, figure out whether your opponent is expanding/teching/rushing (the last one is pretty obvious). If he is rushing, simply keep replacing pylons, cannons, and gateways as necessary (it is cost effective, don't worry). Get 4-5 zealots ready for the wave of Zerglings that your opponent will try to stream in after the Blings, or to attack roaches when they charge in.

If he is teching, tech with him: drop 4 assimilators and your cyber core, and start macroing heavily. Your macro advantage will win the day.

If he is expanding, pump probes and get a cybercore, then slowly tech. Establish about 6 warpgates and apply some pressure to make your opponent build spine crawlers (= less drones).

Well, most of you are much more skilled at taking advantage of a macro situation, so I won't go any further. I'll try and get some more replays up regarding the 10/Nexus 11/Forge soon.
mskaa
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark155 Posts
September 18 2010 19:55 GMT
#15
ive seen TTone do this, and ive tried it my self a few times.. It seems to just hold the normal 13 pool/gas that many zergs use.. Its 9 pylon, crono nexus 2 times, then nexus on 15.. Then a pylon, forge and gate, and cut probes if you need to. When forge is up, get a cannon at your ramp as a part of/behind the wall off. Have 6-8 probes hotkeyed at your expo to defend against the first 6 zergling, just to by time to get the cannon up.. Then crono out a zealot and put him in the mineral line. That makes it pretty hard for small numbers of zerglings to get any probe kills at all..I will see if i can get a replay up.
zaldinfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada60 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 20:22:50
September 18 2010 20:00 GMT
#16
Yeah, others have shared 9 pylon/15 nexus, but I am concerned specifically about 10/Pylon and its viability in comparison. I think planting the pylon first is safer, but I am wondering about this (perhaps crazier) alternative.
Warrior Madness
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada3791 Posts
September 19 2010 02:02 GMT
#17
I don't play protoss but I just gotta say that this is my favourite PvZ build. I've been toying around with this build for the past two days and I've beaten some pretty decent zerg with it surprisingly enough. This or some variation of forge FE will probably become a future standard. Once I wall myself in I get 3 stargates going asap and go for a VR/phoenix all in push (plus mass zealots). It's just really fun to do lol. One precaution I take is stealing the zerg's gas so he can't go for a 1 base roach nydus attack.
The Past: Yellow, Julyzerg, Chojja, Savior, GGplay -- The Present: Luxury, Jae- The Future: -Dong, maGma, Zero, Effort, Hoejja, hyvaa, by.hero, calm, Action ---> SC2 (Ret?? Kolll Idra!! SEN, Cool, ZergBong, Leenock)
Chronopolis
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1484 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-19 03:29:48
September 19 2010 03:06 GMT
#18
On September 19 2010 04:36 zaldinfox wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On a related note, I am working on a 10/Nexus 11/Forge build for PvZ. I have found that you can get your Nexus down by 1:45, right around the time a 13pool (+gas) is 1/4 the way done.

At 11, the forge and Nexus finish at the same time, and by the time the first 4-6 lings are out, you can have your first 2 cannons up. 1 of 2 things happens after this:

1. Zerg plants Natural

In this case, he is already behind because you can chrono boost out 2 probes at a time and your economy will still be greater from 12 supply onwards because you will have a 2nd base up for longer. Also, because Zerg usually invests 3 drones in early gas, you will be way ahead in mineral count.

2. Zerg rushes to Banelings/Roaches

I find roaches tougher than banelings in this regard, because a proper SimCity usually allows your cannons/units to survive. There is enough time to get out 4-5 Zealots (for clean up after the banelings hit your Gateway/Pylon/Forge) before 6-8 banelings arrive.

As for Roaches, your Cannon placement is crucial, and can be a very powerful lure. A very early rush of 4-6 lings and 4-5 Roaches can be held off by about 4 cannons (and you should have 1-2 zealots). Larger pushes that come around 8 min mark should give you enough time to get Stalkers, Sentries, etc...

I am still working on the details and cataloging results for rushes. It is tight, but I think 10/Nexus (though absolutely ballsy) may be doable.

BO:

Get to 10 probes ASAP, using boost immediately.
At 320 minerals, send probe to Nat and build Nexus
Keep probe there and build first pylon, then send as scout
11/Add Forge
13/2 cannons (and maynard 4 probes)
14/Pylon, cannon (high ground if possible), Pylon, Cannon
15/Gateway [should complete main part of SimCity

I found that the key is not to overbuild probes just because you have 2 nexi. Instead, 13-14 is the sweet spot vs. Zerg. At 13 probes on 2 bases, you will be ahead of a teching Zerg by 3 workers per mineral, which translates into a wide gap on the income tab (I think 100 points roughly).

Once your Gateway is up, figure out whether your opponent is expanding/teching/rushing (the last one is pretty obvious). If he is rushing, simply keep replacing pylons, cannons, and gateways as necessary (it is cost effective, don't worry). Get 4-5 zealots ready for the wave of Zerglings that your opponent will try to stream in after the Blings, or to attack roaches when they charge in.

If he is teching, tech with him: drop 4 assimilators and your cyber core, and start macroing heavily. Your macro advantage will win the day.

If he is expanding, pump probes and get a cybercore, then slowly tech. Establish about 6 warpgates and apply some pressure to make your opponent build spine crawlers (= less drones).

Well, most of you are much more skilled at taking advantage of a macro situation, so I won't go any further. I'll try and get some more replays up regarding the 10/Nexus 11/Forge soon
.


How do you scout the zerg tho, after you wall in?
MayorITC
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Korea (South)798 Posts
September 19 2010 03:25 GMT
#19
1400 Toss player here.

9 Pylon (scout)
16 Nexus (unless zerg is going 12 or less spawning pool)
16 Forge
17 Pylon (on Blistering Sands, Scrap Station make second pylon by breakable rocks)
18 Gateway
18 cannon
19 cannon (at other pylon for Blistering Sands, Scrap)

You should have a 1 space gap by your choke for a zealot to block (except on Blistering Sands; completely wall off by nat)

Check to make sure the Zerg player expanded as well. If he didn't, he is most likely either going for a baneling bust or a nydus canal into your main.
Chronopolis
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1484 Posts
September 19 2010 03:29 GMT
#20
On September 18 2010 13:39 slained wrote:
I always expand nexus before forge, on LT is easy to wall off.

I'm a 1500+ protoss

Definitely going to shift heres a couple of my reps, ones against Idra which was a fun game but I didn't make enough stalkers at my push, shouldve expanded to gold like him. But its pretty safe if you wall off nice.

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


I watched the 1st and 3rd replay, going to watch the idra one next, and the build was nothing short of fucking slick. As a ~1200 toss player who blows at pvz, I think this might be the savior. I never thought you could apply so much pressure with 1 gate zealot pump with 2 chrono's. I'm still wondering, how do you figure out what the opponent is up to. Or does it not really matter, when your pumping mostly gateway units.
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