Some of my observations coming out of the game were:
1. The Zerg went for early speedlings and still did not disturb expo 2. It enticed the Z to cut drones and try a baneling bust 3. It takes more than 8 banelings (400/200) to kill a wall of 3 pylons in front of 2 cannons (600/0), with 1 cannon surviving (red health). 4. You can have 13 probes vs Zerg 16 drones (3 gas) and still keep up in minerals because you are on 2 base.
Now, please note that the game was sloppy on both ends, but my main question still stands. Does building a Nexus before Forge work for anyone, or is waiting until the Forge is down not delay the expansion significantly anyway?
Also, in light of the discussion about worker getting a +7% boost to mineral production with "shift-CC" commands, would an extra Nexus this early allow for a bigger boost?
Any replays of successful (or not) FE Nexus first gameplay would be helpful!
I think the first zealot hits the field around 6 min. (Again this was a sloppy game for me, trying to get this build to work. I definitely need to tighten it up).
I think going nexus first is a bit to risky, lots of kids go for that early pool and from my experiences, I've been able to kill kids outright even with a 14 pool(depending on map). The possibility of drops and nydus canals are also another problem. Perhaps that I play random makes a substantial difference on many of the opening builds I face but if I'm P, a nexus first would be great if he doesn't fast pool and if he did hatch first, maybe not even make a forge. Would be a fun build to test out more tho I think you're better off with forge first or many of the other FEs that have been going on recently.
As for the boosting, it would definetly be helpful due to min lines being thin still tho most people probably can't maintain the speed to do them all without sacrificing their overall gameplay which makes those small amounts of minerals not worth it.
I always expand nexus before forge, on LT is easy to wall off.
I'm a 1500+ protoss
Definitely going to shift heres a couple of my reps, ones against Idra which was a fun game but I didn't make enough stalkers at my push, shouldve expanded to gold like him. But its pretty safe if you wall off nice.
What about expanding on other maps, like the new one "Xelnaga Caverns. or perhaps Kulas Ravine. Both seem much more risky, as Utukka mentioned. Thanks for the replays.
yes if you scout him in time nexus first is a pretty strong build on some maps (LT meta blistering scrap, not sure about others). if you play it blind its a little risky, but can still be played.
Apologies for the misunderstanding of before gateway. I dont really do it often. But on scrap ive seen it done plenty of times. Its hard to do the 7% trick on 2 bases while scouting and adapting. You can barely get it done on 1 base with every worker
On a related note, I am working on a 10/Nexus 11/Forge build for PvZ. I have found that you can get your Nexus down by 1:45, right around the time a 13pool (+gas) is 1/4 the way done.
At 11, the forge and Nexus finish at the same time, and by the time the first 4-6 lings are out, you can have your first 2 cannons up. 1 of 2 things happens after this:
1. Zerg plants Natural
In this case, he is already behind because you can chrono boost out 2 probes at a time and your economy will still be greater from 12 supply onwards because you will have a 2nd base up for longer. Also, because Zerg usually invests 3 drones in early gas, you will be way ahead in mineral count.
2. Zerg rushes to Banelings/Roaches
I find roaches tougher than banelings in this regard, because a proper SimCity usually allows your cannons/units to survive. There is enough time to get out 4-5 Zealots (for clean up after the banelings hit your Gateway/Pylon/Forge) before 6-8 banelings arrive.
As for Roaches, your Cannon placement is crucial, and can be a very powerful lure. A very early rush of 4-6 lings and 4-5 Roaches can be held off by about 4 cannons (and you should have 1-2 zealots). Larger pushes that come around 8 min mark should give you enough time to get Stalkers, Sentries, etc...
I am still working on the details and cataloging results for rushes. It is tight, but I think 10/Nexus (though absolutely ballsy) may be doable.
BO:
Get to 10 probes ASAP, using boost immediately. At 320 minerals, send probe to Nat and build Nexus Keep probe there and build first pylon, then send as scout 11/Add Forge 13/2 cannons (and maynard 4 probes) 14/Pylon, cannon (high ground if possible), Pylon, Cannon 15/Gateway [should complete main part of SimCity
I found that the key is not to overbuild probes just because you have 2 nexi. Instead, 13-14 is the sweet spot vs. Zerg. At 13 probes on 2 bases, you will be ahead of a teching Zerg by 3 workers per mineral, which translates into a wide gap on the income tab (I think 100 points roughly).
Once your Gateway is up, figure out whether your opponent is expanding/teching/rushing (the last one is pretty obvious). If he is rushing, simply keep replacing pylons, cannons, and gateways as necessary (it is cost effective, don't worry). Get 4-5 zealots ready for the wave of Zerglings that your opponent will try to stream in after the Blings, or to attack roaches when they charge in.
If he is teching, tech with him: drop 4 assimilators and your cyber core, and start macroing heavily. Your macro advantage will win the day.
If he is expanding, pump probes and get a cybercore, then slowly tech. Establish about 6 warpgates and apply some pressure to make your opponent build spine crawlers (= less drones).
Well, most of you are much more skilled at taking advantage of a macro situation, so I won't go any further. I'll try and get some more replays up regarding the 10/Nexus 11/Forge soon.
ive seen TTone do this, and ive tried it my self a few times.. It seems to just hold the normal 13 pool/gas that many zergs use.. Its 9 pylon, crono nexus 2 times, then nexus on 15.. Then a pylon, forge and gate, and cut probes if you need to. When forge is up, get a cannon at your ramp as a part of/behind the wall off. Have 6-8 probes hotkeyed at your expo to defend against the first 6 zergling, just to by time to get the cannon up.. Then crono out a zealot and put him in the mineral line. That makes it pretty hard for small numbers of zerglings to get any probe kills at all..I will see if i can get a replay up.
Yeah, others have shared 9 pylon/15 nexus, but I am concerned specifically about 10/Pylon and its viability in comparison. I think planting the pylon first is safer, but I am wondering about this (perhaps crazier) alternative.
I don't play protoss but I just gotta say that this is my favourite PvZ build. I've been toying around with this build for the past two days and I've beaten some pretty decent zerg with it surprisingly enough. This or some variation of forge FE will probably become a future standard. Once I wall myself in I get 3 stargates going asap and go for a VR/phoenix all in push (plus mass zealots). It's just really fun to do lol. One precaution I take is stealing the zerg's gas so he can't go for a 1 base roach nydus attack.
On a related note, I am working on a 10/Nexus 11/Forge build for PvZ. I have found that you can get your Nexus down by 1:45, right around the time a 13pool (+gas) is 1/4 the way done.
At 11, the forge and Nexus finish at the same time, and by the time the first 4-6 lings are out, you can have your first 2 cannons up. 1 of 2 things happens after this:
1. Zerg plants Natural
In this case, he is already behind because you can chrono boost out 2 probes at a time and your economy will still be greater from 12 supply onwards because you will have a 2nd base up for longer. Also, because Zerg usually invests 3 drones in early gas, you will be way ahead in mineral count.
2. Zerg rushes to Banelings/Roaches
I find roaches tougher than banelings in this regard, because a proper SimCity usually allows your cannons/units to survive. There is enough time to get out 4-5 Zealots (for clean up after the banelings hit your Gateway/Pylon/Forge) before 6-8 banelings arrive.
As for Roaches, your Cannon placement is crucial, and can be a very powerful lure. A very early rush of 4-6 lings and 4-5 Roaches can be held off by about 4 cannons (and you should have 1-2 zealots). Larger pushes that come around 8 min mark should give you enough time to get Stalkers, Sentries, etc...
I am still working on the details and cataloging results for rushes. It is tight, but I think 10/Nexus (though absolutely ballsy) may be doable.
BO:
Get to 10 probes ASAP, using boost immediately. At 320 minerals, send probe to Nat and build Nexus Keep probe there and build first pylon, then send as scout 11/Add Forge 13/2 cannons (and maynard 4 probes) 14/Pylon, cannon (high ground if possible), Pylon, Cannon 15/Gateway [should complete main part of SimCity
I found that the key is not to overbuild probes just because you have 2 nexi. Instead, 13-14 is the sweet spot vs. Zerg. At 13 probes on 2 bases, you will be ahead of a teching Zerg by 3 workers per mineral, which translates into a wide gap on the income tab (I think 100 points roughly).
Once your Gateway is up, figure out whether your opponent is expanding/teching/rushing (the last one is pretty obvious). If he is rushing, simply keep replacing pylons, cannons, and gateways as necessary (it is cost effective, don't worry). Get 4-5 zealots ready for the wave of Zerglings that your opponent will try to stream in after the Blings, or to attack roaches when they charge in.
If he is teching, tech with him: drop 4 assimilators and your cyber core, and start macroing heavily. Your macro advantage will win the day.
If he is expanding, pump probes and get a cybercore, then slowly tech. Establish about 6 warpgates and apply some pressure to make your opponent build spine crawlers (= less drones).
Well, most of you are much more skilled at taking advantage of a macro situation, so I won't go any further. I'll try and get some more replays up regarding the 10/Nexus 11/Forge soon
9 Pylon (scout) 16 Nexus (unless zerg is going 12 or less spawning pool) 16 Forge 17 Pylon (on Blistering Sands, Scrap Station make second pylon by breakable rocks) 18 Gateway 18 cannon 19 cannon (at other pylon for Blistering Sands, Scrap)
You should have a 1 space gap by your choke for a zealot to block (except on Blistering Sands; completely wall off by nat)
Check to make sure the Zerg player expanded as well. If he didn't, he is most likely either going for a baneling bust or a nydus canal into your main.
On September 18 2010 13:39 slained wrote: I always expand nexus before forge, on LT is easy to wall off.
I'm a 1500+ protoss
Definitely going to shift heres a couple of my reps, ones against Idra which was a fun game but I didn't make enough stalkers at my push, shouldve expanded to gold like him. But its pretty safe if you wall off nice.
I watched the 1st and 3rd replay, going to watch the idra one next, and the build was nothing short of fucking slick. As a ~1200 toss player who blows at pvz, I think this might be the savior. I never thought you could apply so much pressure with 1 gate zealot pump with 2 chrono's. I'm still wondering, how do you figure out what the opponent is up to. Or does it not really matter, when your pumping mostly gateway units.
It works if you get lucky, and the other guy doesn't go for an early aggression build.
I generally go this BO.
9 Pylon 14 Nexus 16 gate 18 single/double cannon 19 Core Continue to mass gates/tech.
Ad lib as you need to survive.
You will be cutting quite a few probes at the start from the need to get buildings up. It takes a while before you can constantly produce probes from both Nexuses.
Once you get past that window where you're vulnerable, though, you are in a very good position (obviously)
For the 10/Nexus, 11/Forge FE, I don't get my first pylon until after the nexus. I send a scout either directly after I plant the Nexus, or after I plant the first pylon. Given the fact that many toss wait to scout until after gate (as in 9/pylon, 12/gate), it is not too late to still scout speedlings.
My challenge is to see some replays where you plant the Nexus before your first pylon. Do it up!
It's weak against 6-9 pool and requires probe micro vs 10 pool. Should only be used on certain maps, LT is the easiest one. I actually have the build for it saved to a document so I'll C&P it here:
Cannon opening: 9 pylon 15 nexus 15 forge -> send probe to scout, send a 2nd probe from main to natural 16 or 17 pylon Cannon when forge is done Gate to create wall with 1 space opening 2nd cannon if needed Zealot when gate is done, plug wall Cynbernetics core as part of wall 23 assimilator 26-27 assimilator 3rd cannon if needed
Zergs might double expand or mutaling in response. Then you can use this transition: Start chronoing warpgate research when core is done Use probe to check for zerg 3rd base, check for unit composition afterwards Also start +1 weapons 36 add some gates 40 add gates until 6 gates Gates finished: turn all into warpgates, spend all gas on sentries and make zealots Push out at 9 minutes with gateway units as +1 finishes, chrono gates Get +2 and templar tech, research blink or charge, make robo just in case
If they go fast roach into hydra instead, you should forget about the +1 zealot push and turtle behind cannons instead while waiting for robotics.
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