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On October 14 2010 06:12 Jayrod wrote:
TLDR: I still think its better to wall off than sim city this strat and it should be no harder to defend. I simply wouldn't recommend this build on certain maps (like blistering) because its so hard to take a 3rd. I think a 3 gate pressure into expand or a wall at natural into 6 gate pressure - > third... are better options for macro players.
I think you misunderstood me, I'm only suggesting not walling on certain maps, and walling for others. I will have to disagree with you about the 3rd though... I feel that difficulty in getting a 3rd hurts the zerg a lot more than the toss, since a toss should beat a zerg on equal bases. Plus this isn't BW, zerg's mobility compared to P isn't that great, even with creep (and absolutely horrid without creep).
I made a small update to the guide, hopefully to clear up some common confusion involving the walling/not walling business.
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Here's a counting trick I use for workers because I dont think enough people count workers and it can be really informative. It will help you know what you're looking at even if you scout early because to get an early pool they have to drone cut a bit.
Rather than trying to count all the drones, which is impractical... instead you count the mineral patches that have two drones... or at 14 or 15+ workers, deduct how many patches DONT have 2 workers on them from 16. 8 patches.. if 4 patches have 2 drones rotating he has 12 drones, etc. Likewise... if only one patch is being solo mined he has 15...
Anyways count workers, its vital information that alot of people just ignore and it can help you guys that are having trouble telling if someone went pool on 13 or 14.
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i had some problems with 3 base zerg players responds to this build.i lost 2 game today.after watching the replays he had more workers than me.and icant choose the timing attack.if we add some cost effetive units to this build like collo or temp how much our 6 warp push delay?
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On October 14 2010 08:55 ssregitoss wrote:
i had some problems with 3 base zerg players responds to this build.i lost 2 game today.after watching the replays he had more workers than me.and icant choose the timing attack.if we add some cost effetive units to this build like collo or temp how much our 6 warp push delay?
If you're losing to 3 base zerg try experimenting with other transitions, such as skipping the stargate and going straight for the 6 warpgates to stop the 3rd base, or dual robo for immortal/colossi and coming out with an unstoppable ball.
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On October 14 2010 07:49 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 06:12 Jayrod wrote:
TLDR: I still think its better to wall off than sim city this strat and it should be no harder to defend. I simply wouldn't recommend this build on certain maps (like blistering) because its so hard to take a 3rd. I think a 3 gate pressure into expand or a wall at natural into 6 gate pressure - > third... are better options for macro players. I think you misunderstood me, I'm only suggesting not walling on certain maps, and walling for others. I will have to disagree with you about the 3rd though... I feel that difficulty in getting a 3rd hurts the zerg a lot more than the toss, since a toss should beat a zerg on equal bases.
exactly this
I played a game last night vs a 1,2k zerg on shakuras where I went for fast double stargate, it came down to phoenixes vs mutalisks (game itself was horrible...was already tired, I did sport before that, was a bit dizzy, misclicked the whole time....)
although he took his third quite in time, he couldn't really establish a good economy because he constantly had to refill his muta count; so after a while at about ~15 minutes into the game the superiority of phoenixes kicked in and I ripped his third to shreds killing countless drones; although I stacked up ~3-4k minerals and was always quite low on gas, I could easily tech to a huge stalker/colossi-ball and overrun him;
from re-watching the rep I saw that he played better on the macro-part; way better; but he NEVER got enough gas for anything decent after sticking with mutas for too long; without it, he would've lost his third way earlier though or couldn't have established it in the first place
this is the true strenght of phoenixes after nexus first on large maps, that you can completely control the mass-expand from zerg and ALSO take a third yourself quite undisturbed
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I was hoping to get Anihc's opinion on the new roach range now that its official.
Do you have any plans to modify this build or do you think it still stands?
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Pretty sure it still stands. If it's possible to hold up to a hydra bust, it's also possible to hold up to a roach bust. Everything that Z can throw at you T1 and T1.5 is largely unchanged save for the Roach, and after playing with it the difference is marginal and will only help out with large scale battles and against MMM or Stalker balls.
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tried this out tonight against a fast roach rush. I need some work on it but I won the only ladder game I had a chance to try it on.
Need to be careful where you place your forge, unless its cannoned the roaches can pop it.
Love this build bc it throws everyones timeing off esp if they havent seen it before. They just keep blowing their units up on the cannons!
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What's to stop a Z that opens with speedlings from simply ignoring your nat and running into your main to attack your workers/main nexus? Looking at the building formations you posted it protects your nat workers/nexus well but how does it protect your main from a sling runby?
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On October 15 2010 12:44 Oceanic wrote:
What's to stop a Z that opens with speedlings from simply ignoring your nat and running into your main to attack your workers/main nexus? Looking at the building formations you posted it protects your nat workers/nexus well but how does it protect your main from a sling runby?
holy crap i wrote the TL;DR section just for people like you. please read.
Regarding the new patch, I haven't played any games yet so I can't say for sure, but my guess is that although it'll still be doable, fending off early roach aggression will be much harder, and may even require some kind of modification to the build. I'll make an update after I play some games with the new patch.
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On October 15 2010 12:49 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 12:44 Oceanic wrote:
What's to stop a Z that opens with speedlings from simply ignoring your nat and running into your main to attack your workers/main nexus? Looking at the building formations you posted it protects your nat workers/nexus well but how does it protect your main from a sling runby? holy crap i wrote the TL;DR section just for people like you. please read. Regarding the new patch, I haven't played any games yet so I can't say for sure, but my guess is that although it'll still be doable, fending off early roach aggression will be much harder, and may even require some kind of modification to the build. I'll make an update after I play some games with the new patch.
had quite a bit of truoble with early roach aggression.
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What if a zerg just balls out doubles expands? It doesn't seem like the nexus first would deal any pressure with the zerg being greedy. At that point it would be who can power a better eco and macro harder for the win.
You'll be sinking alot into defenses- and if you thought defending against 3 base zerg was hard wait till they hit their 4th and have enough gas to mass produce whatever
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On October 15 2010 13:58 Zvendetta wrote:
What if a zerg just balls out doubles expands? It doesn't seem like the nexus first would deal any pressure with the zerg being greedy. At that point it would be who can power a better eco and macro harder for the win.
You'll be sinking alot into defenses- and if you thought defending against 3 base zerg was hard wait till they hit their 4th and have enough gas to mass produce whatever
I guess that's how theocrafting works. I myself do a 15 nex into a 8 gateway blink stalker push. You don't make any units until 40 probes or so. Pretty much it's impossible to have more drones than workers and survive the push if you double expand. I have a replay of a low diamond double expand vs this build and making nothing but drones, a dozen lings, and 4 spine crawlers, yet when I rolled in 3 rounds of warped in stalkers he died.
Overall it's a great build, the troubles I have is scouting what they have to place cannons accordingly. Usually what I face is 2 bae tech by them into muta/hydra and lings. Stalkers arrive in time to deal with muta and hydra and lings can't really break 4 cannons and a forge + gateway not letting them attack.
Although I lost with this build 5 times in maybe last 50 times I used it. I saw only lings with probe so I didn't make many cannons, only to be greeted by banelings and killed. I have died to a nydus in my main with streaming roaches, Id imagine a drop would work just fine... And a couple times I didn't make my wall ling tight so I could get out and use a couple probes to block the enterance but they managed to get through.
Great build overall. Works well vs anything besides a 7 pool usually, especially on a map like lost temple where if he's in the second scouting position your forge goes down at 14 supply which is usually too late.
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Curious, how has the build been holding up with the new roach range? Do you think it will have any effect?
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It's quite a bit tougher to pull off now.
I don't know if the roach change was the big thing or if Zerg's underestimated roaches before but I am definately having more trouble now.
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Even if a cannon is directly behind a gateway/forge without a gap, a roach can attack the gateway without getting hit by the cannon if the zerg player positions the roach at an angle correctly.
Also stalker kiting roaches is next to impossible now.
FE builds is a lot more vulnerable to roaches post patch.
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EDIT: nvm, shouldn't post at 5am
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I think it's scary/stupid that OP and his build easily takes down Zergs when he's not even playing to full potential. Not trying to criticize OP by any means, but if he used chronos better and a little higher apm, it would make the already big gateway/phoenix timing push window even bigger and make it all too easy to throw up a 3rd/tech while applying pressure so even if you don't win right there, you're at equal bases and better off economically. I honestly feel the best and maybe only counter to this build as Zerg is double expand, but stay tier1 units roach/sling/bling and get a bunch of queens to get passed the timing push then tech/counter/expand.
With new roaches though, this will need a revamp, 2base roach or even 1 base can just snipe in the timing window of low units/only cannons making half of what I said irrelevant lol, oh well.
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wow i cant believe one of my fav builds vs zerg have been totally destroyed, iv tried 5 games in a row 15nexus vs zerg, i just cant hold the first push of roaches + some lings (i tried fast stalks, more cannons, fast stargate - it just dont work because zerg comes in waay before u can tech to smth usefull)
i rly doubt that this build is viable now, fast roach push totally counter this ;'(
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On October 15 2010 18:30 kidd wrote:
With new roaches though, this will need a revamp, 2base roach or even 1 base can just snipe in the timing window of low units/only cannons making half of what I said irrelevant lol, oh well.
honestly, I simply think it will need the better scouting - because if zerg really commits to an attack it ALWAYS comes down to just holding it...because afterwards you are just so far ahead it's not even funny
stalkers still do exceptionally well vs roaches and there are many maps where you can do some clever cannon-placement (LT and BS: cannons on the ledge; shakuras: cannons on natural-ramp; force fields to prevent units getting vision of the high ground);
I was sceptical earlier, but now with roach range 4 I highly doubt a FE can hold cost-effectively (!) on xel naga and delta quadrant
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EPT
