EPT[G] PvZ 15 Nexus - Page 7
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Krychek
United States172 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 15 2010 18:30 kidd wrote: I think it's scary/stupid that OP and his build easily takes down Zergs when he's not even playing to full potential. Not trying to criticize OP by any means, but if he used chronos better and a little higher apm, it would make the already big gateway/phoenix timing push window even bigger and make it all too easy to throw up a 3rd/tech while applying pressure so even if you don't win right there, you're at equal bases and better off economically. I honestly feel the best and maybe only counter to this build as Zerg is double expand, but stay tier1 units roach/sling/bling and get a bunch of queens to get passed the timing push then tech/counter/expand. No, I agree with you 100%, and already made the same criticism of myself  :On October 11 2010 05:32 Anihc wrote: You might also notice that my micro is sloppy, and my macro is even worse. I shoot up past 1k many times, and still beat players better than me. You don’t need to be a 200 apm korean amateur to pull this build off. On October 15 2010 20:15 sleepingdog wrote: honestly, I simply think it will need the better scouting - because if zerg really commits to an attack it ALWAYS comes down to just holding it...because afterwards you are just so far ahead it's not even funny stalkers still do exceptionally well vs roaches and there are many maps where you can do some clever cannon-placement (LT and BS: cannons on the ledge; shakuras: cannons on natural-ramp; force fields to prevent units getting vision of the high ground); I was sceptical earlier, but now with roach range 4 I highly doubt a FE can hold cost-effectively (!) on xel naga and delta quadrant This. You will always be able to defend an attack if you can scout it early enough, and if the zerg commits to an attack you can "waste" money on 10 cannons and still come out ahead. That's much easier said than done of course, and with the new roach buff I agree this will probably not really be viable on some maps now. Played 3 games last night on ladder with it (all versus ~2100 zergs), I'm at work right now so I can't post reps but here's how they went: loss on metal: lost to roach/speedling. Poor scouting, only had 1 cannon up by the time attack came. Held off roaches for awhile with cannon/stalker, but roaches were able to snipe wall and then speedlings came in and GG. I still think metal is a decent map for this build, but need to come up with better way to wall so I can fit in more cannons somewhere. Also I forgot to make sentries, which sucked. win on LT: LT is still a great map for this build I think. I denied the zerg's quick 3rd with chrono'ed zealots out of my first gateway, and the zerg canceled and switched to 2 base roach/ling bust. I was easily able to hold it off with cannon/stalker/sentry due to the nice layout of the LT natural, and I rode out the advantage for the win. loss on xel'naga: zerg played a standard macro game and took the gold as a 3rd. Phoenix harass was moderately successful, and I win the first battle at his gold, but was unable to kill the hatch before reinforcements came and pushed me back (the zerg hatch life buff might have made a difference here lol). I had also expanded to the gold by this point, but I lost it because of sub-par mid-late game multitasking. Again, I think xel'naga has some potential to still work with this build, just need to work out a new way to defend natural against early roaches. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
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yarkO
Canada810 Posts
PvZ on Blistering Sands, I decide to use this build, placing my Pylon at the natural choke in anticipation of the wall off. While my scouting Probe is on the way, I see a drone coming towards my base, which seemed REALLY early by my standards but I didn't think much of it. I got to his base and recognized that he was going for a Hatch first build of his own, so I was feeling pretty smart with my 15Nex opening. After a while, I noticed that he didn't put his pool down at what would be normal timing, and I get a gut feeling that he might be doing some ballsy 3-Hatch-before-pool build because he super early scout saw me going Nexus first. As soon as I put down the Nexus and realize that he's not building a pool (suspected Proxy hatch lol), I cut Probes and add 2 Gateways to seal off my entrance. I use my initial scouting Probe to check around the map and sure enough, he has taken a 3rd base before putting down his pool. Now at this point, I'm thinking that by going 2Gate instead of Gate + Forge, I'm gonna be able to roll this kid. He took the expansion near my destructible rocks, and I had forward 2Gate with saved Chrono boost. When my first Zealot arrives, he has 2 Lings and started a Spine Crawler. By the time my next wave shows up, he is streaming in Lings and overwhelming my production capability. As a strike against myself, I did unfortunately supply block for about 3-5 seconds after my first Zealot. I watched the replay myself and I just don't get it. I wish I had saved it so you could get a better idea. Did I react wrong? What would be the proper response to scouting a 3Hatch before Pool when you have decided (and committed) to Nexus first? | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
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yarkO
Canada810 Posts
So you would just play it out normal and let him take it? I kind of freaked out because of how close it was to my base, I was worried about getting contained if I let it go up. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
On October 15 2010 14:16 Skillz_Man wrote: I guess that's how theocrafting works. I myself do a 15 nex into a 8 gateway blink stalker push. You don't make any units until 40 probes or so. Pretty much it's impossible to have more drones than workers and survive the push if you double expand. I have a replay of a low diamond double expand vs this build and making nothing but drones, a dozen lings, and 4 spine crawlers, yet when I rolled in 3 rounds of warped in stalkers he died. Overall it's a great build, the troubles I have is scouting what they have to place cannons accordingly. Usually what I face is 2 bae tech by them into muta/hydra and lings. Stalkers arrive in time to deal with muta and hydra and lings can't really break 4 cannons and a forge + gateway not letting them attack. Although I lost with this build 5 times in maybe last 50 times I used it. I saw only lings with probe so I didn't make many cannons, only to be greeted by banelings and killed. I have died to a nydus in my main with streaming roaches, Id imagine a drop would work just fine... And a couple times I didn't make my wall ling tight so I could get out and use a couple probes to block the enterance but they managed to get through. Great build overall. Works well vs anything besides a 7 pool usually, especially on a map like lost temple where if he's in the second scouting position your forge goes down at 14 supply which is usually too late. How do you usually deal with muta ling? Can you post a replay? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 16 2010 05:22 kcdc wrote: Roach busts are infinitely more threatening vs cannon expands now that they have 4 range. We're going to have to start using more cannons and SPRINTING for mass stalker I think. Yea, in the NEXGenius vs Cool rep, Genius actually goes nexus > forge > gate > cannon even in the face of 14 pool, getting that gate down (and eventual stalkers) even earlier than normal. We might have to always start doing something like that. Might also have to cut a few probes at some point... | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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Haestan
Germany19 Posts
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Eeeegor
Australia809 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The build order in your guide states 9 pylon + scout into 15 nexus which is simply not possible without a huge probe cut or not using chronoboost at all. If you chronoboost your probes and scout at 9 you can only get a nexus down at 17. After that you will have to put up a forge or gateway soon and a pylon so you will get a huge probe cut that I wonder if it's even worth it then. If you don't scout and didn't place your pylon in a way that you can wall off a 6 or 9 pool is simply lethal most of the time. Off all the replays I checked (about 5 at random) you scout at 12 or 13 instead of 9 (like the guide states or is vague about). This will let you get the nexus at 15 which is a huge difference for the smoothness of the build really. A 15 nexus 15 forge works ok but a 17 nexus 17 forge will get you another probecut at 18 pop. The gateway will be delayed by a ton as well making it vulnerable to roach stuff etc. Now with 9 pylon, 12 scout 15 nexus this is quite a solid strat, BUT it will lose to anything faster then a 10 pool as by the time you arrive at their base at the earliest you will be placing your nexus. Even if you do scout the 9 pool or so coming in the forge will go down when you are at 15 food already AT THE EARLIEST and you won't have a wall. I simply don't see how that is not autolose. So either I'm missing something or the guide and the replays just don't mesh (ie. the guide talks about fantasy build times which aren't possible) and it isn't as safe as you make it seem. On fairly large 2 player maps a pylon at the ramp can be safe probably with a 12 scout I think. You are bound to see the incoming zerglings then and could throw down a 14 forge along with a pylon wall-in. Then you could cannon up and be safe. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 18 2010 10:10 Markwerf wrote: What I don't like about this about this guide is that it's very vague in the details. The build order in your guide states 9 pylon + scout into 15 nexus which is simply not possible without a huge probe cut or not using chronoboost at all. If you chronoboost your probes and scout at 9 you can only get a nexus down at 17. After that you will have to put up a forge or gateway soon and a pylon so you will get a huge probe cut that I wonder if it's even worth it then. If you don't scout and didn't place your pylon in a way that you can wall off a 6 or 9 pool is simply lethal most of the time. Off all the replays I checked (about 5 at random) you scout at 12 or 13 instead of 9 (like the guide states or is vague about). This will let you get the nexus at 15 which is a huge difference for the smoothness of the build really. A 15 nexus 15 forge works ok but a 17 nexus 17 forge will get you another probecut at 18 pop. The gateway will be delayed by a ton as well making it vulnerable to roach stuff etc. Now with 9 pylon, 12 scout 15 nexus this is quite a solid strat, BUT it will lose to anything faster then a 10 pool as by the time you arrive at their base at the earliest you will be placing your nexus. Even if you do scout the 9 pool or so coming in the forge will go down when you are at 15 food already AT THE EARLIEST and you won't have a wall. I simply don't see how that is not autolose. So either I'm missing something or the guide and the replays just don't mesh (ie. the guide talks about fantasy build times which aren't possible) and it isn't as safe as you make it seem. On fairly large 2 player maps a pylon at the ramp can be safe probably with a 12 scout I think. You are bound to see the incoming zerglings then and could throw down a 14 forge along with a pylon wall-in. Then you could cannon up and be safe. I guess I was a bit unclear, there will be a small probe cut at 15 supply in order to get the nexus down at 15. I already noted and explained that there are going to be discrepancies between my guide and the replays, because some of the replays are from a long time ago while I was still developing this strategy/guide. I don't think any of my replays have nexus as late as 17 though, and considering that this guide is titled "15 Nexus" I don't think I would go so far as to be vague about that :p BTW, regarding this build post 1.12: I didn't get a chance to ladder much this weekend but for the few games I played, this build still works just as well on LT (and other maps like LT) as before. I've been roach rushed almost every game and have been able to hold it off with cannons behind a wall just like before. For other maps though, I'll still need to play around a bit with this and then I'll make an update to the guide. | ||
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Lancette
China120 Posts
Just theorycrafting a bit. Will a fast phoenix build after the initial stage be a good counter to roach pressure (lifting them to disable) in 1.1.2? The timing and resources are possible though I am not sure how effective will it be. Also, is it viable for some Void Ray play after 4~6 Phoenixes ? | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 16 2010 02:02 yarkO wrote: Did I react wrong? What would be the proper response to scouting a 3Hatch before Pool when you have decided (and committed) to Nexus first? tbh 3 hatch vs 2 base protoss provides for very balanced matchups - because zerg needs some time to really capitalize on his economical advantage and 2 base protoss is helluva strong as it is if I see a double expand I normally go straight 2 gate into 2 stargate, get a couple of sentries and sink my minerals into cannons; I've always managed to put really hard pressure on with my phoenixes because zerg just can't have that much anti-air at this point; on blistering sands I normally make a complete wall-off anyways with the intention of busting my own rocks when I feel like it's time to move out also do NOT underestimate the strength of mass-phoenixes vs hydras; hydras my have awsome DPS, but if you have outnumbered them slightly (which will be the case in the early stages of 2 stargate vs double expand) they die like flies because phoenixes do bonus-damage vs them; just easy math: phoenix do 20 damage vs light and hydras have 80 hp; so if you have a nice phoenix-force they are pretty much one-shotted; therefore you should be able to put really nice pressure on zerg | ||
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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