Ok i see you are doing 16 nexus instead of 15 nexus now in your 1.1.2 games. Makes much more sense, I in fact think 17 nexus is even better. The timing of the nexus itself is not so relevant really, getting it a few secs later doesn't matter much as getting a extra probe early on is a much bigger economy boost (as you don't have saturation yet). 16 or 17 nex also allows you to chronoboost 3 times early on instead of 2 times making it all the better, you have hardly any use for your chronoboost in this strategy anyway. If you scout 14 hatch 14 pool (like you did on the 1.1.2 metapolis replay) I think you could consider going 16 nexus 16 gateway 17 pylon 18 gateway. They won't have roaches soon with such a build and on metapolis and lost temple it's easy to wall the entrance to your base with nexus and double gateway. That way you don't have to spend so much on cannons and you are much better off against 3 base play. As you have a much earlier gateway and thus cybercore as well you should be having stalkers in time to defend against roaches. Against a roach / ling mix you can simply use the sim city in your natural + a sentry or 2 to defend. It would require a few more probe cuts then the 17 forge build but you would have more invested in units instead of cannons so it's worth it I think. It pays off by having quicker tech and more units with a slightly worse economy. In addition earlier stalkers are much easier for defending roach pressure then more cannons imo, since the range upgrade you just lose your wall buildings to roaches way too fast (or be forced to make a abundance of cannons).
14 hatch 14 pool gets the pool at roughly 2:40. 16 nex 16 gate gets gate at roughly 2:55. Pool finishes at 3:45 gate at 4:00. Lings take 24 secs to hatch, chronoboosted zealots take about 25. At 4:10 max 8 lings will head to your base, you will have 1 zealot at 4:25 and 2 more soon. Walk distance at even the shortest spawns is at least 20 secs for lings so it is doable to defend ling pressure from a 14 hatch without forge and cannons. In the same way you can defend roach pressure from 14 hatch without cannons as can have 2 stalkers and 3 more soon by the time roaches get to your base.
I really like this strat at jungle basin, metapolis, LT and shakuras plateau at the moment. Those maps allow you to defend a 14 hatch without needing a forge and also quite important they allow you to easily wall in while putting your first pylon on top of the ramp (which is the safest way against 6 pools).
Example of LT setup:
First pylon on top can be used to wallin yourself with forge + gateway against 6 pool. Also powers up the gateway at the bottom of the ramp. Against 14 hatch: 9 pylon + scout, 16 nexus, 16 gateway, 17 pylon, 18 gateway. Buildings placed as seen in picture will wall in your entrance forcing lings to go around the nexus. Between geyser and pylon is a gap that can be plugged with a zealot if you fill up route behind the geyser (for example with a cybercore as shown here).
I think such a setup leaves you at a much better midgame against 14 hatch then a forge because you can pressure them if they try to get a third or you can secure a third yourself more easily. You can hold off roach pressure by simply kiting with stalkers and perhaps a single sentry.
That's an interesting idea - FEing without the forge. I'd be scared to have to defend any sort of early aggression without cannons, but I guess it could work. Do you have any replays of doing this?
On October 16 2010 05:22 kcdc wrote: Roach busts are infinitely more threatening vs cannon expands now that they have 4 range. We're going to have to start using more cannons and SPRINTING for mass stalker I think.
Yes, I find the only way to hold off heavy roach pushes by getting stalkers as soon as possible. I've only tried this build a few times post-patch, but stalkers are extremely key to holding. Also cannon placement becomes a bit trickier.
Also, if you know they are going for a roach bust you can crank out a couple void rays. Ideally you would send them into his base asap to stop any hydras/mutas that he might be transitioning into, then go to work on his probes. He probalby won't have any static defense and even if he takes out your natural you can cannon up your main and hold him off while still being on one base. I really like this idea better than phoenix harass at this point unless you were so busy defending you are concerned he had time to build a spire.
Maybe it only worked because i'm in platinum, but VR seems to be a solid response to roach busting your FE, perhaps a seasoned diamond could comment.
I successfully pulled off this build against a diamond level player going baneling bust last night. On two separate occasions he busted my front defense, killed all my zealots and cannons, and half my probes, but with 2 nexus chrono boosting more probes out I still stayed ahead in economy and went on to win with a massive midgame army. If you keep up with your chrono boosting at all times and bring your probes out to defend early (like as soon as you see the lings/blings knocking on your door) I think you can hold even well-executed baneling busts with this build. Just try to make sure the banelings are gone before sending the probes into the fray lol
I've been having problems with zergs that are comfortable with just sitting back and droning and taking a quick 3rd. At first they're using roaches and lings to hold off any of my aggression and then they transition to a giant muta cloud supported by corruptors to completely deny my pheonixes while harassing my base with the mutas. What are your guy's thoughts on dealing with this? I was thinking that my initial push in the future would consist of DTs and a random assortment of other gateway units and using unupgraded templars to feedback any overseers.
I feel pretty hesistant taking a relatively quick 3rd because of the possible muta/corruptors flying around the map to deny any pheonix defense as well.
Just have to find the timing... once it turns into an econ game like that the key is just to hit him like 30 seconds before his muta cloud is ready with an optimized force. As for how to do that... well that's the kind of intuition that only practice can bring =[
I'd say just double forge early and hit him when you're at 2-2. The DT idea sounds great too; DTs in general are really strong against zerg now since overlords no longer detect. They 1 hit lings and drones, tear down buildings, and take away zerg's option to expand without thinking about it; now instead of just plopping down a hatch at another base instead of his main and getting the extra income in addition to the extra production which he needed anyways, now if he wants to expand he needs to worry about detection which takes tech, time, resources, and energy. At first I was unhappy that DTs and HTs now require separate buildings but considering how much better DTs have become especially in pvz it's understandable.
@ Suerte, how are corruptors denying a phoenix defense?? Corruptors do beat phoenix but they don't kill them quickly (they just last very long). Phoenixes against muta/corruptor will just have your phoenixes wipe out his muta's while he will be left with useless corruptors, which you can easily outrun if you have phoenix left. If he keeps making corruptor/muta just keep making phoenix and push with zealot/phoenix/stalker(/archon) making sure to get some attack upgrades on your zealots. +1 zealot/stalker/phoenix absolutely demolishes muta/corruptor/ling. If he has spine crawlers set up just try to deny his 3rd and get a 3rd your own and start adding archons to your army.
@ anihc ill try to get some replays of a forgeless defense but I'm not finding zerg on ladder on that 14 hatch alot on those maps where it is possible (for some weird reason).
On October 20 2010 21:28 Markwerf wrote: @ Suerte, how are corruptors denying a phoenix defense?? Corruptors do beat phoenix but they don't kill them quickly (they just last very long). Phoenixes against muta/corruptor will just have your phoenixes wipe out his muta's while he will be left with useless corruptors, which you can easily outrun if you have phoenix left.
this
it seems like many ppl are just theorycrafting instead of trying it out; phoenixes kill mutas MUCH faster than corruptors kill phoenixes; so you can just kill the mutas and LOL at the remaining corruptors flying around uselessly; zerg will have sunk minerals and you can mass-gate or tech to templar
EDIT: also corruptors means a) less mutas and b) a much slower flying ball, you have actually time to bring in your stalkers as well because they can't leave their muta-ball unprotected and have to adjust their movement-speed to the speed of corruptors
Thanks, I'll try that next time. I'm usually a bit wary when it comes to directly engaging with phoenixes because especially at that point in the game I'm at about 6-8 while there are around 12 mutas and like 6 corruptors but sure I'll start targeting the mutas when they come in from now on.
The only issue I have with trading armies in this instance is that unless you can get into their mineral line and do damage, the Zerg player can easily just slam out another round of mutalisks and then you're kind of screwed (unless you brought stalkers along into the fight to pick off mutas faster/get some corruptors.)
Zerg players are loving them some early roach pressure vs cannon expands. It was initially very effective against me, but I've started going gate-assimilator-gate-core after my cannons (sort of like a very delayed double stalker opening) and it shuts down roach pressure a million times better than gate-gas-core-gate. Starting the second gate before your core does require some slight probe cutting, but I think it's a worthwhile sacrifice. Also, having the double stalkers available means you don't have to make as many cannons. 2 is fine on all maps that don't have a back door.
love this build. do it every time against zerg on LT except I cut gate units and go for 2 warpgates with more cannons at the front. The zerg will do one of the following: 1) Attack your front (good cannon #s and placement + 1-2 sentries should handle this) 2) Go mutas (phoenix > mutas) 3) Fast nydus (bring 2 probes to patrol the perimeter until you've set up a decent pylon network. If you see the nydus, pull 7-8 probes off mining to kill it - more people need to do this). My success rate against zerg diamond with this is like ~80% but that's only on LT. It works ok on metalopolis. Not as good on XC because it's hard to get decent frontal coverage/building placement
I love this build and im holding off roach pressure very easily on some maps by doing what kcdc posted above, was just wondering if some people could send me replays of them doing this build on a map like xel naga, jungle basin and mabe shakuras so i can get a good idea of good cannon placement as it has to be very precise now with the roach range buff.
Did this build in a 1500+ diamond game on ladder, it worked just fine. Since he went for hatch first, he basically could put up no aggression at all, and was content to just go to 3 base, however even though it was 2 base vs 3 base, i found that i could get out adequate gate/colossi army to counter ling roach hydra3 base army. I think with this build its important to get observers out and keep tabs on how many bases he is on, where his army is, how big it is etc.
I think its viable, but on some maps you may not be able to scout a 6 pool in time to make a decision on whether to FE or not. Honestly.. if T and P both need to make a pylon or supply depot before they make attacking units.. i think it should be the same for Z. Just force them to make an overlord before lings, tadaa we have no more super cheesy builds.
On October 21 2010 02:48 kcdc wrote: Re: roach range buff
Zerg players are loving them some early roach pressure vs cannon expands. It was initially very effective against me, but I've started going gate-assimilator-gate-core after my cannons (sort of like a very delayed double stalker opening) and it shuts down roach pressure a million times better than gate-gas-core-gate. Starting the second gate before your core does require some slight probe cutting, but I think it's a worthwhile sacrifice. Also, having the double stalkers available means you don't have to make as many cannons. 2 is fine on all maps that don't have a back door.
although I disagree with 2 cannons being enough with hardcore zerg-pressure (depends how hard he commits of course), this is so very true the first time I saw this was in the games of pippi vs cezanne.....if you save up chrono-boost and get double-stalker first quite quickly is huge; together with cannons it will really scare any very early roach-force off and you can proceed and get more gates/stalkers if you spot early roach-pressure; if not you are still good to get early stargate and do some harassment, second gate before core doesn't slow you down at all considering you have to get a 2nd gate before stargate anyways, unless you are 100% that he won't attack...like if you see something really weird like super-early double expand before pool etc.
I've been playing with this build when I play against Zerg and I have won all my games. Can safely confirm it works on Bronze league. Thanks OP this will be my standard opening.
The good thing is that when they don't see a wall many Zerg players(in my level) cut drone production and try to go in for the kill at 2 bases. With 4-5 Phoenixes you can hunt a bunch of overlords and delay the Zerg so much so that when your Push comes they will die quite easily.
Could this work against Terran? I mean, 15 Nexus with 1 gateway instead of a Forge? I actually tried but he expanded 3 times and steam rolled me with Mass Banshees(My fault, I should have thrown down a stargate instead of more Stalkers)
Ok i really want to make this work now. Every time I do it I get a response from zerg, here's a sample: 1. Wow thats a fast expand 2. NEVER fast expand against zerg. ( he ended up losing ) 3. Are you a pro? What League? 4. (this guy was a piece of work) Honestly, what did you think would happen? ( as he's annihilating me with mutas ) 5. you can't fast expand against zerg, ever. 6. Just letting you know I just took my 3rd expansion (me) thanks 7. (after I lost) (me) gg (him) not really you suck. 8. Proxy pylon? As i'm dropping cannons/pylons at his natural.
This build is a lot of fun, but it DEFINITELY takes a lot of practice.
Some things that help: 1. Gas/Core up quickly. You will need lots of gas to get the units you need to defend. Cannons can only take you so far. Sentries are pretty key early, you can even defeat roaches with just a lot of zealots/sentries if you use shileld/FF well. 2. Scout - Definitely out an occasional probe or three to scout expansions, see what he's building so you can react accordingly. 3. Cannon his expo. Especially if he takes 2 of them. If you can get this to work at his natural or someplace close to his main, get warpgates immediately, warp in units and keep pressing. 4. Cannon his ramp, send in zealots to reinforce the cannons asap, get warpgates. I've seen pros do this very successfully, might need 2-3 cannons to hold since your zealot is delayed. Either way it will delay his expansion, and force him to make some ground troops to take them out. 5. Plan out ahead of time where you are going to place your initial buildings/cannons on each map. On more open maps you will probably want to use your gateways to help you wall in/protect your natural, and you'll need a few more cannons than normal.
I still do 15 Nex against zerg just about everytime, unless it's Steppes and I cannon wall their base. Mainly you have to switch your cannon sim city, I generally put the cannons at the top of the nexus so they can still hit incoming roaches. Otherwise they will just range kill the pylons at the top and this still protects your mineral line from zerglings. While still cannoning both bases my main rush is to chrono out one void before doing other tech or working on phoenix's. That pretty much ends roach/ling pushes for the early game.
Disclaimer: I have not had many ppl go banelings against this, they either double expo or over commit on running me over with zerglings/roaches.
Excellent post. You have a great build that would give me trouble. I watched your last three replays to see how it deals with roaches, and it does seem pretty strong.
However, there is still a window of vulnerability to a strong early roach push. None of the replays demonstrated that. I'm talking about a past 5-7 roach push before expanding. Your base is pretty vulnerable from the 4-5:30 point because you can't even build stalkers yet and are completely reliant on cannons. I would probably get confused if I saw your build in game because it's new to me, but if I understood what you were doing I would focus the cannons down unlike some of the players you were against.
Once you get past that window you're pretty safe. In fact, it probably has an enormous advantage over slower expanding builds. Interesting that you suggest you're most vulnerable to pre-warpgate attacks. I guess if the Zerg has two bases and cuts drone production at about 30-35, they could have a really strong push. It seems like hydras are also going to be difficult to deal with because their range will help a great deal against your wall in.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7748/ltwallin16nex.jpg)
As i'm dropping cannons/pylons at his natural.
