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replay of a game using a good wall-in and a 16 gateway after 16 nexus against 14 hatch. Forge isn't needed as the zealot will pop out in time to block against the maximum of 8 lings he will be sending early (3 from main 1 from his natural). The replay has 14 hatch into 16 pool but it's safe vs 14 hatch 14 pool as well really.
By having a earlier gateway you can also have a much earlier cybercore and thus stalkers/sentries out before he can use roaches. As long as you wall properly and make the right units in time it's perfectly safe vs 14 hatch. Offcourse it requires a wall-in that be defended with 1 zealot vs 8 lings for a short while which so far is easy to do on LT, metalopolis (only east spawn is a bit harder), shakuras and jungle basin. On other maps it's much harder as your pylon(s) will be exposed a lot more.
I know the replay itself isn't good but it's merely to show the opening which if you notice the timings is perfectly safe.
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The Zerg did a 14-Hatch 16 pool 15 Gas build so an earlier pool might have given you some trouble. I think, especially on LT, that a cannon on the highground is key to hold off ling/ bling agression. Would've made your game a lot easier too 
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Well your first zealot will always be out before his 8 lings reach your natural. Then your 2nd zealot will be done about 15 secs after (you have saved up chronoboost anyway so you can CB non-stop). As your 2nd zealot pops your cyber will finish and you can make zealot + sentry in case of (bane)ling pressure and otherwise you go stalkers.
14 hatch 14 pool really is no problem with this (they will hurt themselves more then they possibly will you) if you defend it well.
After the initial defense i was screwing up in this game as i forgot to mine gas for a bit resulting in getting sentries a lot later then i should have. If you just get 1 sentry straight after the cyber is done you won't have any problems with ling pressure really.
Imo such a build is far superior then a cannon defense as cannon defense is pretty damn weak against a zerg who just pokes with 4 to 6 lings and then drones MASSIVELY on 3 base. Forge and cannons delay your tech by some time and can't be used for aggresion.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but this build loses to a 7-10 pool. You won't hold 7 pools scouted on last position and even if you survive a 9 pool by completely walling your ramp, you would be too far behind, especially on a map like blistering sands with rocks where you also have to make atleast one cannon to survive. I'd like to hear some better protoss players thoughts about this
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On October 22 2010 16:52 Mareng wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this build loses to a 7-10 pool. You won't hold 7 pools scouted on last position and even if you survive a 9 pool by completely walling your ramp, you would be too far behind, especially on a map like blistering sands with rocks where you also have to make atleast one cannon to survive. I'd like to hear some better protoss players thoughts about this
If it was forge first pylon near main nexus, then no amount of lings will beat that, but gate first FE's are always gonna be vulnerable to lings.
the positioning of the buildings is very clever.
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On October 22 2010 16:52 Mareng wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this build loses to a 7-10 pool. You won't hold 7 pools scouted on last position and even if you survive a 9 pool by completely walling your ramp, you would be too far behind, especially on a map like blistering sands with rocks where you also have to make atleast one cannon to survive. I'd like to hear some better protoss players thoughts about this
The purpose of building the first pylon in your main (either near nexus or choke) not at your nat is because if you 9pylon and send that probe to scout, you will always scout them before you actually put down your 15 nexus, even if you scouted last position.
This allows you to abort the 15 nexus build and wall off either your ramp or mineral line with an immediate forge followed by a cannon (or two). By the time lings get to your base your cannon(s) should either be up or almost up. You'll have to fight back with probes, but they do decently well against small ling numbers and will easily delay for the cannon to come up. Against a 7-10 pool on a small map, you'll have scouted them pretty early so you should have cannons up or almost up by the time lings get to your base anyways.
TLDR: Basically you obviously don't continue going 15 nexus if you scout a 7-10 pool (which you should scout in time if you scout on 9) and build a forge + cannons.
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its just too risky... if the zerg 7 pools, or 6-pool- or even 9-pools, you will lose. even a 10-pool wont be easy to hold of with this nexus first build.
i prefer the save variation with pylong+forge first, then a cannons, then the nexus..
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On October 22 2010 17:59 Gr4ndmasterSexy wrote:
its just too risky... if the zerg 7 pools, or 6-pool- or even 9-pools, you will lose. even a 10-pool wont be easy to hold of with this nexus first build.
it's so annoying that ppl can't stop posting the same useless stuff again...and again...and again
OF COURSE you don't get nexus first vs 7 pool, it was written countless times that the timing of 15 nexus plays out exactly so that you scout the zerg even on 4-player maps (last spot) before you actually throw down the nexus; early pools require a totally different response anyways, nobody will throw down a nexus in case of a <10 pool; now at 15 you'll have saved up enough ressources to drop a gateway and a forge (against 6-pool) or 2 gateways (8-9 pool) and be fine because zerg pretty much has to do some damage or be very far behind
I mean, in the kcdc-thread we didn't discuss how to one gate FE vs terran who went double proxy rax either did we?
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On October 22 2010 18:02 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 17:59 Gr4ndmasterSexy wrote:
its just too risky... if the zerg 7 pools, or 6-pool- or even 9-pools, you will lose. even a 10-pool wont be easy to hold of with this nexus first build. it's so annoying that ppl can't stop posting the same useless stuff again...and again...and again OF COURSE you don't get nexus first vs 7 pool, it was written countless times that the timing of 15 nexus plays out exactly so that you scout the zerg even on 4-player maps (last spot) before you actually throw down the nexus; early pools require a totally different response anyways, nobody will throw down a nexus in case of a <10 pool; now at 15 you'll have saved up enough ressources to drop a gateway and a forge (against 6-pool) or 2 gateways (8-9 pool) and be fine because zerg pretty much has to do some damage or be very far behind I mean, in the kcdc-thread we didn't discuss how to one gate FE vs terran who went double proxy rax either did we?
I know that if I scout the earlier pools I'm not supposed to put the Nexus down, but instead wall off my ramp. I did that yesterday vs a friend, I scouted his 9 pool and put a forge and a gateway on my ramp and held off the lings. It was on blistering sands, so I also had to cannon by the rocks and that put me far behind him and I had no chance 5 min later.. But maybe I would have been much better off with 2 gateways immediately placed if I scout a 9 pool, instead of 1 forge 1 gate as I now did?
Is the correct response to 6-7 pool to put 1gate/1forge, and 2gates vs 8-9 pool, as you wrote? I'm only ~1000 pts platinum so I don't really know how to deal with these early pools anyway, no matter what build I intended from the beginning. Sorry if I was a little unclear with my criticism vs the 15 Nexus. The reason for my post was because I scouted a 9pool, abandoned my build, held off the rush and still lost due to falling behind.
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On October 22 2010 18:24 Mareng wrote:
Is the correct response to 6-7 pool to put 1gate/1forge, and 2gates vs 8-9 pool, as you wrote? I'm only ~1000 pts platinum so I don't really know how to deal with these early pools anyway, no matter what build I intended from the beginning. Sorry if I was a little unclear with my criticism vs the 15 Nexus. The reason for my post was because I scouted a 9pool, abandoned my build, held off the rush and still lost due to falling behind.
well, tbh there is no "correct" response because it depends entirely on the way the zerg proceeds - in theory zerg could put down an 8-pool just to screw with your head and produce just drones lol....know what I mean?
I prefer 2 gate vs 8 pool because after I get my core down I chrono 2 stalkers out and put pressure on the zerg who - at this point - normally tries to drone up; first 2 zealots to fend off early ling shenanigans of course (if you think the zealots will be a tad too late....just sim-city with a pylon and cancel it on the last second; no reason why not to)
if zerg goes for early pool, you fend it off without pulling (too many) probes AND have pretty much constantly produced probes then there's no way on god's green earth you can be behind at this point, I'd need a rep to see what the hell went wrong there 
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On October 22 2010 18:36 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 18:24 Mareng wrote:
Is the correct response to 6-7 pool to put 1gate/1forge, and 2gates vs 8-9 pool, as you wrote? I'm only ~1000 pts platinum so I don't really know how to deal with these early pools anyway, no matter what build I intended from the beginning. Sorry if I was a little unclear with my criticism vs the 15 Nexus. The reason for my post was because I scouted a 9pool, abandoned my build, held off the rush and still lost due to falling behind.
well, tbh there is no "correct" response because it depends entirely on the way the zerg proceeds - in theory zerg could put down an 8-pool just to screw with your head and produce just drones lol....know what I mean? I prefer 2 gate vs 8 pool because after I get my core down I chrono 2 stalkers out and put pressure on the zerg who - at this point - normally tries to drone up; first 2 zealots to fend off early ling shenanigans of course (if you think the zealots will be a tad too late....just sim-city with a pylon and cancel it on the last second; no reason why not to) if zerg goes for early pool, you fend it off without pulling (too many) probes AND have pretty much constantly produced probes then there's no way on god's green earth you can be behind at this point, I'd need a rep to see what the hell went wrong there
Thanks for your answer! Hopefully I'll manage to survive the 9pool now if I should face it on the ladder. We also tried a 7pool allin on LT, where I scouted him on the last position and he attacked with lings and 2 drones and I couldn't hold it.. But maybe it's me who needs practicing. How can I hold a 7pool when I'm on 15 food and have only a pylon on your ramp?
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The proper defense against a 6 to 10 pool is just sealing off your ramp with 2 gates and pylon or gateway+forge+pylon. If you scout in time it in time i'd advise double gate as that leaves you in better position if they start to drone, but sometimes you need forge + gateway as that is a little easier for actually deflecting the rush.
I've posted pictures a few pages before of a easy wall in with forge + gateway + pylon as long as you place the pylon at the ramp. Most maps you can easily 'double' wall as well, ie. put a extra gateway behind the pylon so that even if they break the pylon they are still walled off. That can buy you enough time for some zealots or a cannon and lets you mine longer with your probes. Just make sure to get probes to fight along with your zealots/cannon at exactly the time you wall breaks.
Only if you scout them last on a 4 player map can you have some trouble vs 6 pool really. On DQ that's a different case but i'd never advise a 16 nexus on that map. On LT and metalopolis you can usually find them first or 2nd as you can generally assume they are not next to you if you don't see their scouting overlord, just scout the closest position first then go cross if you didnt get ovie scouted otherwise move down to where the ovie came from. As long as you see the pool reasonably on time it isn't too hard to fend off, if you don't scout the zerg before you are on 14 pop you can always just switch to a regular 14 gate which is automatically safe vs 6 pools with proper walling really.
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idk, if that helps, but. I tried this build for the last few games vs Z and hell, did it work well, but anyway
I had one opponent who tried to 6 pool me and I scouted it around 15 Food but with pylon at my main Nexus (not the ramp) and just went forge and then threw down 2 cannons at the mineral line, then normally got gateway/cyber and CBed out probes as I would always do and won no problem. His first 6 lings arrived around the time the first cannon was almost done, and they didn't do much damage, as once the cannon finished, my probes plus cannon killed any lings who tried to attack the workerline quite easily.
With a little bit of probemicro for saving dying probes there really werent too many losses, maybe 2 probes or so, I think.
again, I don't know if my opponent just sucked or was confused as to what he should do, so I can't say if this helps vs other zerg players (1k diamond here btw, just for refference)
On the other hand, if a zerg goes 6 pool, then he's already soooo much behind on drones, he won't be able to catch up ecenomically anyway, so I guess, if the lings don't do much damage you sorta autowin, by just continue going your normal build off of one base instead of 2, at least until you can fend off the pressure with your army instead of cannons, I guess
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+ Show Spoiler +yeah, 15 nexus from sangho in GSL vs PhoenixWerra! how awsome is that EDIT and phoenixes from 2 stargates, wow I love this player already; he does exactly what I've been doing lately...just....better  EDIT#2 ok, anybody still not convinced that nexus first into double stargate works on proper maps HAS to see the vod of sangho vs phoenixwerra; terrible, terrible roflpwn
On October 22 2010 18:59 Markwerf wrote:
Only if you scout them last on a 4 player map can you have some trouble vs 6 pool really. On DQ that's a different case but i'd never advise a 16 nexus on that map.
yeah, DQ is a strange map...
I wouldn't 15/16 nexus on close-positions either obviously; especially metalopolis close positions are a definite nono, closest rush-positions of all maps here
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today on gsl babybyebye made this strat on scrap on round 1.zerg respond with 3 hatch.toss gone for double stargate harrassed with 6 phonex and mass stalker imo than gg.
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second game on sakura.doing the same ... this time zerg went one base baneling took 8 probe.then exp and mass drones teching to mutas.toss standart 2 stargate and GG.
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The map pool is incredibly favored for nexus first atm.
-scrap station
-lost temple
-shakuras plateau (easiest nexus first ever)
-jungle basin
-blistering sands (can be tricky)
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On October 22 2010 19:30 ssregitoss wrote:
second game on sakura.doing the same ...
yeah; now we see what I have been talking about earlier - muta/corruptor can NOT stop phoenix-harass!
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time for liquipedia maybe?
protoss make front page of tl again i think so...
braintoss ftw...
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On October 22 2010 19:45 johngalt90 wrote:
time for liquipedia maybe?
protoss make front page of tl again i think so...
braintoss ftw...
I think this thread has the same potential as the kcdc-FE-thread.....now, after all the haters FINALLY saw that this build indeed works (on the proper maps) on the very high level, I think MUCH more will actually try it out instead of just theory-crafting around it
I'm hoping for much more reps/discussion about the different responses from zerg on this; especially in the light of the new patch
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-159552.jpg)
