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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 18 2010 19:44 Wolf wrote: Tried this A LOT and found limited success. Early drone scouts know this is coming and will block your Nexus and this could totally crush you. same with zerg's hatch first - pull an additional probe and put down the forge in the process; then you have a forge FE that's still decent | ||
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0tso
Sweden67 Posts
On October 18 2010 19:44 Wolf wrote: Tried this A LOT and found limited success. Early drone scouts know this is coming and will block your Nexus and this could totally crush you. Can't we just do what zergs do? (send two probes) | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
This is for several reasons: - the hatch comes down earlier as the nexus as it is cheaper. - a hatch costs 300 and a pool 200 so the difference in builds between hatch first and pool first is very little in timing. If you block their hatch they cna easily go pool first and hardly notice it (you lose about as much by having send the early probe as they lose to the hatch block really). For protoss the difference is huge as a nexus block means you have 400 minerals stored and if you put a forge down then you got a severely worse build order. - zerg's build system stored production so cutting drones a bit for the hatch isn't too bad as they can immediately build up a few more drones if they get blocked and be fine, with protoss you are already probe cutting making it far worse. If you feel you are going to get nexus blocked you really need to pull 2 probes asap or your entire build order can get ruined. If you switch into a forge FE at that point you open the way for the zerg to win by double expanding. I would like to know what the OP really thinks the best build order is. I think if you 9 pylon 9 scout into 15 nexus you are getting too big a probe cut at 15. I estimate you have to cut probes for about 20 secs if you want to go that way. With such a huge probe cut and the tech delay this build gets, not too mention being forced to get forge+cannons against 14 pool which might not even mean ling pressure, i'm not too sure if this is too good a build at most maps. I like it at the maps where you only need 1 cannon or no cannons to defend vs 14 pool but think it's a bit counterproductive on others. I mean 14 pool is economically better as 14 hatch for zerg (the reason to 14 hatch is only to have less chance of a hatch block and making the hatch a bit easier to defend because it's done earlier) and will force you into a cannon + forge + a substantial probe cut. By simply droning and not attacking they get quite a big advantage then, especially as your tech delay and investment in cannons means they are free to take their third. I'm trying to get a building placement that will work with 12 scouting which can still win against a 6-pool. That would make the probe cut alot less and make it economically a lot smoother putting you less behind if the zerg happens to do 14-pool into mass droning. | ||
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Kelorienne
United States50 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8394/examplewallin.jpg) An example for steppes of war. The red numbers indicate the order to make the buildings. First pylon at the edge of the ramp. Scout on 12 and your probe arrives at the opponents base around 2:10 at steppes of war. If you see a 6-pool going on (which arrives at your door at 2:45 roughly) you can immediately make a forge and gateway (as noted by the numbers 2). These along with your first pylon will wall you in completely. Then make a pylon behind the wall as zerg will probably knock down your pylon, which can only be hit by 3 zerglings max though so will take a while. If the pylon falls you can setup a additional gateway to seal yourself off again (number 4) so you get time to place your cannons (number 5) which are powered by your additional pylon. When the wall busts you need to buy some time with probes for your cannons to finish but you should be far ahead then. If he backs off you can simply cancel the additional gateway and knock down the pylon yourself to open your wall again. This build also allows you to easily cannon expand at your nexus as the pylon on top of the ramp powers cannons placed directly next to it (as shown by the blue lines). I think these kind of wall-ins which are possible for LT and metapolis as well are a better way to place your buildings. You are relatively safe against 6-pools with them but don't need to scout on 9. Also if you scout a 14 pool you can just go 15 nexus and start placing cannons near your nexus to defend. | ||
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XiGua
Sweden3085 Posts
Take away the rocks Blizzard, we don't need it! 15 Nexus on Jungle Basin Imba... | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 18 2010 21:00 Markwerf wrote: A hatch block for zerg is not as bad as a nexus block is for protoss really. This is for several reasons: - the hatch comes down earlier as the nexus as it is cheaper. - a hatch costs 300 and a pool 200 so the difference in builds between hatch first and pool first is very little in timing. If you block their hatch they cna easily go pool first and hardly notice it (you lose about as much by having send the early probe as they lose to the hatch block really). For protoss the difference is huge as a nexus block means you have 400 minerals stored and if you put a forge down then you got a severely worse build order. tell that to tester, who I've seen adjusting with 15 forge into nexus against 14 pool-scouts; it really doesn't matter if you put down the forge on 12 or on 15, if he 6-pools you need to abandon your normal BO anyways, if he doesn't your cannons will definitely go up with 15 forge; your build won't be severely worse at all, you just get a normal forge FE with slightly delayed forge, that's all | ||
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skipdog172
United States331 Posts
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On October 18 2010 22:22 XiGua wrote: The BEST map for the use of 15 Nexus is Jungle Basin, it's just too imbalanced to become a map. Take away the rocks Blizzard, we don't need it! 15 Nexus on Jungle Basin Imba... Without the rocks, there would be two entrances into the initial base, and terran plyaers would guaranteed lose to 6 pool and 2 gate every single game. So no, the rocks are needed. | ||
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Azron
Australia11 Posts
Since the patch it has been a constant defence battle especially if they try to do a roach all IN however once you've defended the initial roach push - your economy will just over run theirs You will be having to use alot of FF - and since the patch stalker balls anyone? | ||
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Taniard
United States114 Posts
 I have never lost when doing an all-in to a forge fast expand... But to each his own. | ||
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Azron
Australia11 Posts
NEXGenuis GSL - watched his game last night - amazing | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
Also it seems like zergs I'm facing are getting better and better at reacting to this build. I'm losing regularly now to macro zergs who know the timing of the 6-8 warpgate attack and know how to maximize early game droning and quickly get out enough units to defend their 3rd. That doesn't mean this build sucks though, it just means I can't easily walk over players much better than me just because they don't know what to do against 15 nex :p My strategy now against double expo is to not be too aggressive, and instead try to keep up the macro game by getting my own 3rd down earlier, and then teching to dual robo for a huge protoss ball backed by immortal/colossi (not too fast though). It's much easier fighting zerg off creep than on creep - i.e. it's much easier to engage the zerg by defending your 3rd rather than attacking the zerg's 3rd. Of course, if the opportunity presents itself and I scout the zerg being too greedy, I won't hesitate to attack. | ||
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Mareng
Sweden11 Posts
I'm just a little curious of how to wall off properly on Xel'naga.You referred to the new game on metalopolis but Xelnaga just seems a little different than metal so I would greatly apprieciate if you could upload a replay of a game on xelnaga as well! | ||
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XiGua
Sweden3085 Posts
On October 19 2010 06:10 bobcat wrote: Without the rocks, there would be two entrances into the initial base, and terran plyaers would guaranteed lose to 6 pool and 2 gate every single game. So no, the rocks are needed. Then remove the map. The thirds are too hard to secure as a zerg... | ||
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nekuodah
England2409 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
If you scout 14 hatch 14 pool (like you did on the 1.1.2 metapolis replay) I think you could consider going 16 nexus 16 gateway 17 pylon 18 gateway. They won't have roaches soon with such a build and on metapolis and lost temple it's easy to wall the entrance to your base with nexus and double gateway. That way you don't have to spend so much on cannons and you are much better off against 3 base play. As you have a much earlier gateway and thus cybercore as well you should be having stalkers in time to defend against roaches. Against a roach / ling mix you can simply use the sim city in your natural + a sentry or 2 to defend. It would require a few more probe cuts then the 17 forge build but you would have more invested in units instead of cannons so it's worth it I think. It pays off by having quicker tech and more units with a slightly worse economy. In addition earlier stalkers are much easier for defending roach pressure then more cannons imo, since the range upgrade you just lose your wall buildings to roaches way too fast (or be forced to make a abundance of cannons). 14 hatch 14 pool gets the pool at roughly 2:40. 16 nex 16 gate gets gate at roughly 2:55. Pool finishes at 3:45 gate at 4:00. Lings take 24 secs to hatch, chronoboosted zealots take about 25. At 4:10 max 8 lings will head to your base, you will have 1 zealot at 4:25 and 2 more soon. Walk distance at even the shortest spawns is at least 20 secs for lings so it is doable to defend ling pressure from a 14 hatch without forge and cannons. In the same way you can defend roach pressure from 14 hatch without cannons as can have 2 stalkers and 3 more soon by the time roaches get to your base. I really like this strat at jungle basin, metapolis, LT and shakuras plateau at the moment. Those maps allow you to defend a 14 hatch without needing a forge and also quite important they allow you to easily wall in while putting your first pylon on top of the ramp (which is the safest way against 6 pools). Example of LT setup: ![[image loading]](http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7748/ltwallin16nex.jpg) First pylon on top can be used to wallin yourself with forge + gateway against 6 pool. Also powers up the gateway at the bottom of the ramp. Against 14 hatch: 9 pylon + scout, 16 nexus, 16 gateway, 17 pylon, 18 gateway. Buildings placed as seen in picture will wall in your entrance forcing lings to go around the nexus. Between geyser and pylon is a gap that can be plugged with a zealot if you fill up route behind the geyser (for example with a cybercore as shown here). I think such a setup leaves you at a much better midgame against 14 hatch then a forge because you can pressure them if they try to get a third or you can secure a third yourself more easily. You can hold off roach pressure by simply kiting with stalkers and perhaps a single sentry. | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On October 19 2010 21:22 XiGua wrote: Then remove the map. The thirds are too hard to secure as a zerg... .....Because you have to lay down more than two creep tumors to make a highway? How is the third any different from Xel Naga Caverns, Steppes of War, Desert Oasis, Blistering Sands, or any other map that isn't Lost Temple or Metalopolis? If you want to discuss the imbalance of this map, make a thread or use the search function to find one rather than flooding this thread. To the OP. Watch the replays and started practicing this build. It is remarkably hard for the Z player to punish unless they scout you very early(like at 8 supply). Consider my skepticism rebuked. | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On October 19 2010 07:58 tangz wrote: Don't get me wrong I have lost to a well timed all in, however if it's defended usually zerg will get punished - generally or not us toss can crawl back up NEXGenuis GSL - watched his game last night - amazing I find that the attempt to all in after scouting this build is what causes so many zerg players to lose to it. I have 2 cannons behind gateways/forge at either base and you come in with 20 lings? They have to run all the way around the buildings while getting shot and then they get probe blocked and only 3 or 4 lings end up attacking while the rest run around. Then you have the players who try to roach rush (more effective than lings but still bad) and end up getting pushed back by stalkers. If the zerg player would just stick to droning on their 2 base while we made cannons and then massing up hydras with a few roaches they would have a much better chance of killing you. | ||
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