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On October 22 2010 19:37 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 19:30 ssregitoss wrote:
second game on sakura.doing the same ... yeah; now we see what I have been talking about earlier - muta/corruptor can NOT stop phoenix-harass!
that is right now we see this strat on a progamer hand.but he goes double stargate.and we see how phonex own mutas+corruptor.cause they are faster than mutas and corr.i still find it is very risky for 2 stargate.and babybyebye goes really fast triple gas.
it is time for liquipedia.
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The trick is to scout the 15 nexus and then go 6 pool. Trust me, 6 pool counters 15 nexus so hard.
User was warned for this post
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On October 22 2010 20:27 McFoo wrote:
The trick is to scout the 15 nexus and then go 6 pool. Trust me, 6 pool counters 15 nexus so hard.
if you wanna troll at least do something funny
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On October 22 2010 20:29 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 20:27 McFoo wrote:
The trick is to scout the 15 nexus and then go 6 pool. Trust me, 6 pool counters 15 nexus so hard. if you wanna troll at least do something funny
Well your counter troll isn't very funny 
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On October 22 2010 20:27 McFoo wrote:
The trick is to scout the 15 nexus and then go 6 pool. Trust me, 6 pool counters 15 nexus so hard.
if you go 6 pool you cant scout.are you crazy. heh. believe this strat stops 6 pool with 9.probe scout.cause you go forge before nexus and no expo.with one cannon you macro well with one base vs 6 pool zerg.
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On October 22 2010 19:02 SCvanTango wrote:
idk, if that helps, but. I tried this build for the last few games vs Z and hell, did it work well, but anyway
I had one opponent who tried to 6 pool me and I scouted it around 15 Food but with pylon at my main Nexus (not the ramp) and just went forge and then threw down 2 cannons at the mineral line, then normally got gateway/cyber and CBed out probes as I would always do and won no problem. His first 6 lings arrived around the time the first cannon was almost done, and they didn't do much damage, as once the cannon finished, my probes plus cannon killed any lings who tried to attack the workerline quite easily.
With a little bit of probemicro for saving dying probes there really werent too many losses, maybe 2 probes or so, I think.
again, I don't know if my opponent just sucked or was confused as to what he should do, so I can't say if this helps vs other zerg players (1k diamond here btw, just for refference)
On the other hand, if a zerg goes 6 pool, then he's already soooo much behind on drones, he won't be able to catch up ecenomically anyway, so I guess, if the lings don't do much damage you sorta autowin, by just continue going your normal build off of one base instead of 2, at least until you can fend off the pressure with your army instead of cannons, I guess
So I should always build the first pylon close to my nexus to survive 6-7 pools?
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Sangho uses 16 nexus two games in a row in the GSL.
Wins both games handily.
I've been mixing this strat in with my forge FE.
I typically go phoenix into chargelot => dt => ht/dt/zealot/archon and I really enjoyed watching Sangho's blind double stargates.
The ability to get out so many phoenix so fast allows him to destroy queens and overlords so efficiently
The double stargate looks very promising and safe overall. Again, thanks for this build. I"ll post some replays when I find which transitions I find most successful from the 15/16 nexus.
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On October 22 2010 21:32 Ummbeefy wrote:
The double stargate looks very promising and safe overall. Again, thanks for this build. I"ll post some replays when I find which transitions I find most successful from the 15/16 nexus.
the best thing of this build is, that it's entirely up to you what you make out of it - you are literally "incontrol" now; if you screw up and do only minor damage..you die and rightly so; if you use your phoenixes very effectively you can kill huge numbers of overlords, drones and probably queens;
if you manage to do that you can transition into basicly everything on at least an even footing; since the phoenixes also provide perfect scouting intel, you should know exactly what to do
what I mean is, this is a very "mentally satisfying" build to practice...because each and everytime you lose, you will already in the game realize "hell, now I screwed this and that up";
quite the opposite of playing vs terran MMM where you get pwned and then go "hmm...and what exactly should I have done against this now?" - way more motivating if you always know that there are so many holes in your game left to improve
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On October 22 2010 21:23 Mareng wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 19:02 SCvanTango wrote:
idk, if that helps, but. I tried this build for the last few games vs Z and hell, did it work well, but anyway
I had one opponent who tried to 6 pool me and I scouted it around 15 Food but with pylon at my main Nexus (not the ramp) and just went forge and then threw down 2 cannons at the mineral line, then normally got gateway/cyber and CBed out probes as I would always do and won no problem. His first 6 lings arrived around the time the first cannon was almost done, and they didn't do much damage, as once the cannon finished, my probes plus cannon killed any lings who tried to attack the workerline quite easily.
With a little bit of probemicro for saving dying probes there really werent too many losses, maybe 2 probes or so, I think.
again, I don't know if my opponent just sucked or was confused as to what he should do, so I can't say if this helps vs other zerg players (1k diamond here btw, just for refference)
On the other hand, if a zerg goes 6 pool, then he's already soooo much behind on drones, he won't be able to catch up ecenomically anyway, so I guess, if the lings don't do much damage you sorta autowin, by just continue going your normal build off of one base instead of 2, at least until you can fend off the pressure with your army instead of cannons, I guess So I should always build the first pylon close to my nexus to survive 6-7 pools?
It really depends on the map. With maps like Blistering where there are backdoors, it's probably safer to build your pylon near your nexus as you can just wall your mineral line. On maps without backdoors and more defensible ramps you can pylon at your ramp and upon scouting the 6-10 pool just throw down buildings at your ramp to block it off.
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I liked this strat so much it compelled me to make a TL account so that I could join in the fray.
I used to use this all the time prior to the recent patch to great effect, often in conjunction with cannoning the zerg ramp. The roach range increase made me thing all was lost for a while. However, after some extensive testing with a Z buddy we've found that it definitely holds up against a roach all-in against it on a map where you can wall off a choke at. We worked it as a straight up timing exercise against a 14 pool into roach and concluded that about three cannons and two gates chrono boosting stalkers is sufficient to hold the choke.
My question is if anyone knows if this is viable against a one base roach all-in without a wall off. I've won with it against poor opponents but suspect that it is not safe. I intend to test it on my own of course, but would hate to repeat someone else works.
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The thing I like about this is that many zerg players don't know how to respond, so they end up going heavy muta. I've responded by making this build focus on getting out archons. They move fast and counter muta very well due to splash. (It's a bit harder if they magic box, but micro can help a lot) One problem I've noticed is that I get very high on minerals though.
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After further testing, I think it can be safe to still go phoenix in this patch. You just have to get more scouting done to know whether roach pressure is coming.
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16 nexus
i had a LOT LOT LOT of excess minerals, because i haven't 1v1'd for a while and first time having an economy this gigantic. was still able to pull through.
i am 1200 plat, opponent 1200 diamond
i was in vent with him, and i think when he saw the nexus it threw him off a little bit.
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On October 23 2010 10:18 Platypus84 wrote:
I liked this strat so much it compelled me to make a TL account so that I could join in the fray.
I used to use this all the time prior to the recent patch to great effect, often in conjunction with cannoning the zerg ramp. The roach range increase made me thing all was lost for a while. However, after some extensive testing with a Z buddy we've found that it definitely holds up against a roach all-in against it on a map where you can wall off a choke at. We worked it as a straight up timing exercise against a 14 pool into roach and concluded that about three cannons and two gates chrono boosting stalkers is sufficient to hold the choke.
My question is if anyone knows if this is viable against a one base roach all-in without a wall off. I've won with it against poor opponents but suspect that it is not safe. I intend to test it on my own of course, but would hate to repeat someone else works.
Hello, could you maybe post some of the replays of your training games, that would be really really helpful for the timings 
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Does anyone have reps at the upper diamond level of people holding to one base roach? I've just been doing that against this and it's been working out well so far. I deny scouting with my lings and if toss happens to scout me I attack with about 8 roaches and rally more and I'm always able to break toss because he doesn't have enough stuff out.
Also let's pretend it's either prepatch or I don't want to one base allin. What beats this as zerg? Double expo? It seems like every toss punishes me for this with an earlish push at some point and I can't get enough units out without killing my econ.
Is there any kind of roach ling attack off two base that works that us mere mortals can do? I saw sen do this on his stream before and I had no f'ing idea how he knew he could break toss on xel naga and it was pretty close, he had amazing control and timing with the attack, and if it didn't work he was screwed. How about a 2 base hydra timing attack?
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On October 23 2010 17:23 Silidons wrote:16 nexus i had a LOT LOT LOT of excess minerals, because i haven't 1v1'd for a while and first time having an economy this gigantic. was still able to pull through. i am 1200 plat, opponent 1200 diamond i was in vent with him, and i think when he saw the nexus it threw him off a little bit.
This was again vs another diamond opponent, but he was around 700. It was also a 20 nexus, still very early though!
And I found out how to spend all those excess minerals!
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Question: If the only weakness to this build is early pooling, then why not just go 6 scout instead of 9 or 10 scout?
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On October 24 2010 16:24 Tossup wrote:
Question: If the only weakness to this build is early pooling, then why not just go 6 scout instead of 9 or 10 scout?
Because a 9 scout sees the 6 pool still with time to not throw down a nexus and to prepare to defend.
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On October 23 2010 15:30 grimAuxiliatrix wrote:
The thing I like about this is that many zerg players don't know how to respond, so they end up going heavy muta. I've responded by making this build focus on getting out archons. They move fast and counter muta very well due to splash. (It's a bit harder if they magic box, but micro can help a lot) One problem I've noticed is that I get very high on minerals though.
If you're high on minerals against mutas pump out more cannons, then you can leave your base to counter sooner, and use cannons to hold another expansion if spines up and your counter can't kill him.
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On October 24 2010 17:06 Moodwen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 16:24 Tossup wrote:
Question: If the only weakness to this build is early pooling, then why not just go 6 scout instead of 9 or 10 scout? Because a 9 scout sees the 6 pool still with time to not throw down a nexus and to prepare to defend.
people say that if they go 6 pool and you 9 scout, your forge will not beat 6 pool. If you know first off if it's 6 pool, you can defend even better and go forge nex instead of nex forge
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