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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On October 24 2010 19:08 Tossup wrote: people say that if they go 6 pool and you 9 scout, your forge will not beat 6 pool. If you know first off if it's 6 pool, you can defend even better and go forge nex instead of nex forge They're wrong. | ||
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Tossup
United States208 Posts
Or...you're definitely wrong. forge + cannon - 85 seconds pool + zerglings - 89 seconds This means, if you spot the pool building 5 seconds after it's built, your cannons will be behind. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On October 24 2010 19:48 Tossup wrote: Or...you're definitely wrong. forge + cannon - 85 seconds pool + zerglings - 89 seconds This means, if you spot the pool building 5 seconds after it's built, your cannons will be behind. Zerglings still have to cross the map. Anyway, in BW, a 5pool would deliver zerglings before the Protoss could get cannons up, but Protoss would start a cannon in the mineral line and defend w/probes until it completed --> not a problem. Zerglings are weaker than in BW, and cannons are stronger... | ||
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SethDrone
United States51 Posts
Sante - loss ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160167.jpg) Warmaster - win | ||
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
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Brandus
148 Posts
On October 25 2010 00:29 SethDrone wrote: Couple 15 nex replays from today/yesterday, would welcome any critique's on it. Both are vs diamond players, the first one beats me with a one base all-in roach push and the other one I win vs a 1.2k diamond. I think the link to the second one is broken but I found it on gamereplays. The first one I was surprised how quickly it fell to roaches. Even at the 7 minute mark you really had nothing but cannons which is about when you first start seeing early pushes. The second one the zerg slipped terribly and only had like 12 drones mining in his main. Nevertheless the phoenix play was impressive. | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
In your lose on LT, I would highly recommend a different building/cannon placement. Gateway/forge/nexus/Gatweay (or cyber) should form a wall such that there is only one way in and the cannons can hit them the entire time they are trying to funnel through. That way those 2 cannons in your main can be down at the choke point where they will do more good. A cannon on that high ground ledge overlooking the nat is great as well. Also I think going for stargate first is not ideal before you get a couple stalkers/sentries out unless you scout him going for early lair tech ( mutas ). | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 24 2010 19:57 Severedevil wrote: Zerglings still have to cross the map. Anyway, in BW, a 5pool would deliver zerglings before the Protoss could get cannons up, but Protoss would start a cannon in the mineral line and defend w/probes until it completed --> not a problem. Zerglings are weaker than in BW, and cannons are stronger... Not only that, but you should've been constantly pumping chrono'd probes. You should have enough probes to fight off the initial 4-6 lings from the Zerg with just probes quite easily or at least delay long enough to get your first cannon up. As long as you don't go below 6-7 probes by the end of the rush you will be in the lead x] | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
On October 26 2010 10:05 Ryuu314 wrote: Not only that, but you should've been constantly pumping chrono'd probes. You should have enough probes to fight off the initial 4-6 lings from the Zerg with just probes quite easily or at least delay long enough to get your first cannon up. As long as you don't go below 6-7 probes by the end of the rush you will be in the lead x] I got early pooled on this build yesterday on scrap station, as soon as I scouted it (scouted normally on 9) I dropped a forge and I think my cannon was just barely starting when the lings showed up. I managed to keep the lings busy with probes, etc and just kept dropping pylons, cannons and making probes as necessary. Once I had 2 fully operational cannons in my min line I just transitioned into 4gate and crushed them. | ||
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
In fact, I like to poke at zerg by having a mini-wrap gate rush at the time when my wrap gate is finished and I have around 4-6 gates. It's usually enough to kill zerg's expansion. | ||
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SethDrone
United States51 Posts
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&&id=160165 | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2335 http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show?id=2336 I wonder how he defends against a 2 base hydra push though. Or 3 bases into hydras. He basically 15 nexuses and gets 2 stargates. Pumps out 6 phoenixes and starts to harass while getting an additional 3 gateways. I hope we see more of this build. It's really cool and we've gotten to see it versus two different zerg builds so far. | ||
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
On October 27 2010 15:30 Warrior Madness wrote: I think Sangho's been reading this thread: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2335 http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show?id=2336 I wonder how he defends against a 2 base hydra push though. Or 3 bases into hydras. He basically 15 nexuses and gets 2 stargates. Pumps out 6 phoenixes and starts to harass while getting an additional 3 gateways. I hope we see more of this build. It's really cool and we've gotten to see it versus two different zerg builds so far. Yeah, i think this was on scrap and cross shakuras, I think he was banking on the zerg not being aggressive with hydras/creep highway. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-161210.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-161211.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-161212.jpg) These are 3 games where I scout a 14 hatch so I decide to skip the forge. This makes the build a bit faster and gives you faster stalkers, faster tech etc. Against 14 hatch it's perfectly safe. If I don't see roaches (or was just to crap to notice them) i follow up with a stargate for phoenix to scout and harass (though a voidray can at times be useful). After that proceed with phoenix stalker vs mutaling or switch to stalker immortal colossi vs hydra/roach. One game I lose because of not adapting to muta's properly later on (i was stupid to get colossi and lacked the gas for enough stalkers because of it). ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-161213.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-161214.jpg) In these games I scout a 14 pool or at least a lack of a 14 hatch and thus go with a forge and 1 cannon. More is rarely neccesary and by going 2 gateways after the forge you can pump out stalkers & sentries fast enough to stop baneling or roachling pushes etc. Same as other stuff, follow up with stargate or robo and counter appropiately. This thread deserved a bump imo and this strat is very strong at maps that favor it (easy natural, can protect both natural and main with 1 cannon). As long as you wall properly and start off with stalker/sentry you can defend any push and stalker/sentry are good no matter what your opponent makes. | ||
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s4m222
United States272 Posts
Question: If the only weakness to this build is early pooling, then why not just go 6 scout instead of 9 or 10 scout? sort of takes away from the whole greedy build concept. If you 6 scout your WHOLE 15 nexus build order is slowed down meaning if they DONT 6 pool your entire build is slower because you pulled the early probe. | ||
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NETRAT
Belarus180 Posts
I've been using this from time to time lately, and I find it defendable, in worst case scenario you have to pull some probes (5-10) but you won't loose them and still will be ahead in economy | ||
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Musketeer
142 Posts
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wxwx
527 Posts
On November 07 2010 02:40 Musketeer wrote: On Steppes/TL/Metal, how do you defend cheese if you wall your natural? I'm not a great player (1300 diamond), and 6 pool is pretty common, especially on LT - almost every game against Z. Am I correct in understanding that I just abandon the 15-nexus in favor of a 12 forge if my pylon-builder-scout sees a 6 pool? There's not enough time to scout all of the bases before I have to decide whether I need to 12-forge or 15-nexus. probably can't 12-forge, it'll probably turn out to be 14-15 forge which should be enough to defend against lings. Oh yeah, first pylon goes above your ramp in case of a 6 pool. Also send your 10th/11th probe diagonally to the edge of your base for LT/metal to check cross position overlord | ||
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