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On January 09 2011 22:36 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 21:41 Akash wrote:That's some nice archon usage  . I dont know if he would had been better of using broods instead of ultras.But without roach support,u could had just walked to the broods and killed them. People forget how good archons are (altought slightly nerfed compared to the BW version). Your composition seemed more like an giant version of zealot/archon with some stalker support :D.But i dont understand why not build 1-2 cannons per mineral line to push early instead of defending against mutas? That would had allowed u to push earlier. Also why didn't u scouted for any third expo? Using those 2 early zeals to pressure would had forced him to make lings.And on Meta it's kind of logical for the zerg to take the gold (i dont have any exact data,but taking a regular third expo means he is just equal to u no ?) because it allows him to continue having a economical advantage. Your replays coupled with others from this thread changed my vision on the matchup. The only maps which u can't do 15 nexus or FFE are ones with backdoor (Shakuras Plateau or Blistering).Yes,u might get a cannon in time,but if he breaks the rocks and runs past ur cannon,u'r dead. I'm not saying u should 15 Nexus on every map except those 2 above,but doing that puts pressure on the zerg.For the first time we are not the ones obligated to put pressure and catch up economically,the zerg has to do that now. And if u manage to scout and find the zerg's third and get some zeals to attempt to snipe it or force early lings,u'r in top shape. Maybe we're returning to the Path of Nal_Ra once again ? (altought he used FE mostly,but the ideea is similar) Dude, my post was 3 months ago. Since then, the archon build, as well as my blink stalker build, stopped working due to the range buff on the roach and increased viability of infestors. Nowadays I use a mass void ray style to follow up an early nexus.
Aren't i the late guy to the party :<.I knew it was a diferent patch since the game exited to load an older version.
Also the mass void style might change also after the new patch with the removal off Flux Vanes.
We will have to see.
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I'm only in gold but I've tried it and it works pretty good at this level at least.
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I have started trying to practice this build and it seems like it has lots of potential. I am only practicing against the v hard comp (i know its not the best, but just wanna get a feel for the build order and macro aspects as well) and have noticed a couple of things in my play. I played on Xel Naga, and since the comp went 14 pool (they always do but i 'mock' scouted anyways  )
1) Scouting at the right time is hard without stalkers. What times should I send my probe into their base to scout? I always go 9 scout, and circle around the base for awhile until about 13/14 supply to see if they go pool or hatch first....but after that, from my perspective when should I scout again to see their response? E,g, should I scout when i get to say 20 supply??
2) Where do you hide your 9 probe scout so he can scout for you later??
3) The computer did a roach 1base all in and i build 3 cannons, against their 7ish roaches that was constantly reinforced...they were able to snipe each cannon one by one (its wide spacing since its xelnaga) while i was waiting for my first 2 stalkers to come out. How do you hold this off? They managed to kill all 3 cannons JUST as my 2 stalkers came out. But I feel a real opponent would have walked his roaches around the back of the natural and kill my probes etc.
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bankai:
I'm trying to learn this build as well. The only way to hold off a roach bust is to simply spam cannons. At first it sounds like a stupid overreaction (and you will feel a bit silly doing it) but if he has seven roaches you're gonna need five to seven cannons. The hardest part is to make just enough cannons so that he can't kill you. That's something you have learn by just trying out how many you need. It might be six. It might be ten. I'm still not sure. It's so situational but atm I get arround eight of them if I scout he's going for a roach bust.
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On January 12 2011 08:29 Tekakan wrote:
bankai:
I'm trying to learn this build as well. The only way to hold off a roach bust is to simply spam cannons. At first it sounds like a stupid overreaction (and you will feel a bit silly doing it) but if he has seven roaches you're gonna need five to seven cannons. The hardest part is to make just enough cannons so that he can't kill you. That's something you have learn by just trying out how many you need. It might be six. It might be ten. I'm still not sure. It's so situational but atm I get arround eight of them if I scout he's going for a roach bust.
You do not need 5-7 cannons for 7 roaches that is overkill. Just know the timings and scout appropriately (1 base roach hits your front door ~6 mins, 2 base roach ~7 mins depending on map). As for how many cannons you need that depends on what kind of support you have for your cannons. I open stargate after FE and I have never had to make more than 3 cannons per entrance before my void pops out ~8 mins vs 2 base roach (vs 1 base you can afford to OD on cannons since it is all-in). If you 6 gate you can get away with 2 per entrance since you will have stalkers and sentries.
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On January 12 2011 08:51 Skyro wrote:
You do not need 5-7 cannons for 7 roaches that is overkill. Just know the timings and scout appropriately (1 base roach hits your front door ~6 mins, 2 base roach ~7 mins depending on map). As for how many cannons you need that depends on what kind of support you have for your cannons. I open stargate after FE and I have never had to make more than 3 cannons per entrance before my void pops out ~8 mins vs 2 base roach (vs 1 base you can afford to OD on cannons since it is all-in). If you 6 gate you can get away with 2 per entrance since you will have stalkers and sentries.
I would love to see you dealing with a 7 RR followed up with constant new roach production with just three cannons. I've tried it and on maps like Meta or Xel Naga Caverns the Roaches can easily pick off one cannon after the other. So if played out properly how many units do you have at the 6th minut mark that will insure you to be safe against a 7RR? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong when dealing with roaches with only 3 cannons but in my experience it doesn't work. I do tend to get too many cannons though so I'm not saying you're wrong I just have a hard time of seeing how you can go 15 or 16 nexus, then a forge + 3 cannons and still get enough GW units (especially Stalkers and Sentries if you want to start the WG tech ASAP) to deal with the roach bust.
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On January 12 2011 10:05 Tekakan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 08:51 Skyro wrote:
You do not need 5-7 cannons for 7 roaches that is overkill. Just know the timings and scout appropriately (1 base roach hits your front door ~6 mins, 2 base roach ~7 mins depending on map). As for how many cannons you need that depends on what kind of support you have for your cannons. I open stargate after FE and I have never had to make more than 3 cannons per entrance before my void pops out ~8 mins vs 2 base roach (vs 1 base you can afford to OD on cannons since it is all-in). If you 6 gate you can get away with 2 per entrance since you will have stalkers and sentries. I would love to see you dealing with a 7 RR followed up with constant new roach production with just three cannons. I've tried it and on maps like Meta or Xel Naga Caverns the Roaches can easily pick off one cannon after the other. So if played out properly how many units do you have at the 6th minut mark that will insure you to be safe against a 7RR? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong when dealing with roaches with only 3 cannons but in my experience it doesn't work. I do tend to get too many cannons though so I'm not saying you're wrong I just have a hard time of seeing how you can go 15 or 16 nexus, then a forge + 3 cannons and still get enough GW units (especially Stalkers and Sentries if you want to start the WG tech ASAP) to deal with the roach bust.
Depends on map, of course. Try it on Lost temple or Shakuras Plateau.
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On January 12 2011 10:05 Tekakan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 08:51 Skyro wrote:
You do not need 5-7 cannons for 7 roaches that is overkill. Just know the timings and scout appropriately (1 base roach hits your front door ~6 mins, 2 base roach ~7 mins depending on map). As for how many cannons you need that depends on what kind of support you have for your cannons. I open stargate after FE and I have never had to make more than 3 cannons per entrance before my void pops out ~8 mins vs 2 base roach (vs 1 base you can afford to OD on cannons since it is all-in). If you 6 gate you can get away with 2 per entrance since you will have stalkers and sentries. I would love to see you dealing with a 7 RR followed up with constant new roach production with just three cannons. I've tried it and on maps like Meta or Xel Naga Caverns the Roaches can easily pick off one cannon after the other. So if played out properly how many units do you have at the 6th minut mark that will insure you to be safe against a 7RR? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong when dealing with roaches with only 3 cannons but in my experience it doesn't work. I do tend to get too many cannons though so I'm not saying you're wrong I just have a hard time of seeing how you can go 15 or 16 nexus, then a forge + 3 cannons and still get enough GW units (especially Stalkers and Sentries if you want to start the WG tech ASAP) to deal with the roach bust.
to be honest i think cannons are a great thing to get early if your going 15 nexus but its probably smart to afterwards wall your ramp with pylons / forge to prevent zergling runby as you go on and keep a probe outside the wall to build cannons while the nexus finishes and simply go forge after nexus and make your gateways late and spam a bunch of cannons if you scout your enemy did a worker cutting aggressive build
if your enemy isnt cutting workers then you dont spam all those cannons because if your enemy scouts you making a bunch of cannons he can double expand and it will be 4base vs 2base
so yeah cannons are fine to spam if you scout that your enemy went for a worker cutting build. now you have cannons to block his aggression on your expansion plus you got 2 bases while he has been cutting workers. just worry about cannons protecting the expansion you can wait a little while before worring about drops or nydus in your main
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On January 12 2011 10:07 iChau wrote:Depends on map, of course. Try it on Lost temple or Shakuras Plateau.
Yeah I only do 3 or 4 on those maps if I scout an early roach warren (usually i only do 1-2 on all maps if the zerg goes for a FE as well). I'm just curious to find out if there's a more efficient way of dealing with roach busts then spamming cannons since they're only static defense.
roymarthyup:
Thank's for the advice. Is that the same as saying that if you scout the Roach Warren and you see he's saving up on larva you can asume he's cutting workers? (I'm in low diamond playing against low/mid diamond so we can asume everyone I play doesn't let their macro slip that early on in the game)
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On January 12 2011 10:05 Tekakan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 08:51 Skyro wrote:
You do not need 5-7 cannons for 7 roaches that is overkill. Just know the timings and scout appropriately (1 base roach hits your front door ~6 mins, 2 base roach ~7 mins depending on map). As for how many cannons you need that depends on what kind of support you have for your cannons. I open stargate after FE and I have never had to make more than 3 cannons per entrance before my void pops out ~8 mins vs 2 base roach (vs 1 base you can afford to OD on cannons since it is all-in). If you 6 gate you can get away with 2 per entrance since you will have stalkers and sentries. I would love to see you dealing with a 7 RR followed up with constant new roach production with just three cannons. I've tried it and on maps like Meta or Xel Naga Caverns the Roaches can easily pick off one cannon after the other. So if played out properly how many units do you have at the 6th minut mark that will insure you to be safe against a 7RR? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong when dealing with roaches with only 3 cannons but in my experience it doesn't work. I do tend to get too many cannons though so I'm not saying you're wrong I just have a hard time of seeing how you can go 15 or 16 nexus, then a forge + 3 cannons and still get enough GW units (especially Stalkers and Sentries if you want to start the WG tech ASAP) to deal with the roach bust.
I stated I need only 3 cannons per entrance vs 2-base roach since 3 cannons will hold until my first void pops out ~8 mins on the maps I actually FE on (Scrap/Jungle/Shakuras and to a lesser extent LT). Obviously on metal you need more cannons because of the wide open natural but personally I do not believe FE'ing on metal (or any of the other maps I didn't specifically list above) is worth FE'ing on.
A better question though is why you are FE'ing vs a 7RR which is a very specific all-in build in which you can easily scout the early pool. If they go standard 14 gas/pool or pool/gas and do not expand they hit you ~1 min earlier so you may need 1 extra cannon, but like I said above vs any 1-base play you can afford to go bonkers on cannons since the zerg is going all-in.
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What I do as a Zerg to counter this is maps that are not to huge is to drone up heavily, quickly tech to lair, get ovi speed and mass hydras. Build a creep highway and add tons of spine crawlers when getting out of gas. Colossus or storm is barely out and if so, only in small numbers and hydras rape everything coming out of the gateway.
Hope this helps you.
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On January 12 2011 10:16 Skyro wrote:A better question though is why you are FE'ing vs a 7RR which is a very specific all-in build in which you can easily scout the early pool. If they go standard 14 gas/pool or pool/gas and do not expand they hit you ~1 min earlier so you may need 1 extra cannon, but like I said above vs any 1-base play you can afford to go bonkers on cannons since the zerg is going all-in.
Okay I'll admit I'm refering to the wrong build. I mean when they rush to get 7 or 9 roaches straight after their pool is done if they do a 14 gas/pool or pool/gas or maybe scouting you're pylon on the lowground and getting roaches ASAP. Anyways in refrence to what I said earlyer I ment 6-10 cannons for maps like Meta or Xel'Naga, not Blistering Sands, Scrap Station, Jungle Basin, Lost Temple or Shakuras. Afterall it was Xel'Naga Caverns he had been playing and asked for advice on.
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Just wanted to say great post to the OP, very well written and touches on a lot of things, thanks!
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The biggest weakest of this build is always in scouting. Zerg basically know exactly how many cannon, how many gates and how many probed for 5 minutes.
Instead of forcing Zerg into guessing game (how many drones I can make without dying?); he can just count your cannons and decide to pump drones or troops.
Losing in the information war is very dangerous against those macro Zerg, I do think Gate forge or 3 gate expand are much safer to execute in high level games.
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On January 12 2011 10:40 Tekakan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 10:16 Skyro wrote:A better question though is why you are FE'ing vs a 7RR which is a very specific all-in build in which you can easily scout the early pool. If they go standard 14 gas/pool or pool/gas and do not expand they hit you ~1 min earlier so you may need 1 extra cannon, but like I said above vs any 1-base play you can afford to go bonkers on cannons since the zerg is going all-in. Okay I'll admit I'm refering to the wrong build. I mean when they rush to get 7 or 9 roaches straight after their pool is done if they do a 14 gas/pool or pool/gas or maybe scouting you're pylon on the lowground and getting roaches ASAP. Anyways in refrence to what I said earlyer I ment 6-10 cannons for maps like Meta or Xel'Naga, not Blistering Sands, Scrap Station, Jungle Basin, Lost Temple or Shakuras. Afterall it was Xel'Naga Caverns he had been playing and asked for advice on.
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Thanks for the advice!
I think from reading everything, it sounds like maybe forge FE is not the best build for close position maps like this. It doesnt sound very worth it building more than 4-5cannons and its not safe with roach sniping/baneling busting gonig on. Could someone answer my q1 and q2 as well?
Can anyone quickly tell me the BO for a 3gate sentry expand vs Z? what unit composition should i have when i lay down the nexus?
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On January 12 2011 10:40 Tekakan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2011 10:16 Skyro wrote:A better question though is why you are FE'ing vs a 7RR which is a very specific all-in build in which you can easily scout the early pool. If they go standard 14 gas/pool or pool/gas and do not expand they hit you ~1 min earlier so you may need 1 extra cannon, but like I said above vs any 1-base play you can afford to go bonkers on cannons since the zerg is going all-in. Okay I'll admit I'm refering to the wrong build. I mean when they rush to get 7 or 9 roaches straight after their pool is done if they do a 14 gas/pool or pool/gas or maybe scouting you're pylon on the lowground and getting roaches ASAP. Anyways in refrence to what I said earlyer I ment 6-10 cannons for maps like Meta or Xel'Naga, not Blistering Sands, Scrap Station, Jungle Basin, Lost Temple or Shakuras. Afterall it was Xel'Naga Caverns he had been playing and asked for advice on.
Well specifically talking about Metal or XC the better advice is just to go 6-gate after FE so you have a mobile army to defend your wide open natural, rather than making so many cannons. But like I said I do not personally think it is worth it to FE on these maps because it limits what you can do (i.e. stargate openers after FE is not really viable on these maps). Making an exhorbitant amount of cannons to defend your natural defeats the purpose of the FE in the first place since you are just using so much of your extra econ on defense. 3-gate expand on these maps is way safer and not very economically behind compared to a FE that builds a ton of cannons.
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On January 13 2011 01:58 Skyro wrote:Well specifically talking about Metal or XC the better advice is just to go 6-gate after FE so you have a mobile army to defend your wide open natural, rather than making so many cannons. But like I said I do not personally think it is worth it to FE on these maps because it limits what you can do (i.e. stargate openers after FE is not really viable on these maps). Making an exhorbitant amount of cannons to defend your natural defeats the purpose of the FE in the first place since you are just using so much of your extra econ on defense. 3-gate expand on these maps is way safer and not very economically behind compared to a FE that builds a ton of cannons.
You're forgetting to take account that the zerg is not doing a macro build. He's sacrifising doing drones for getting early Roaches therefor the only hard part in this process is to make just enough cannons to survive his Roach Bust.
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On January 13 2011 02:32 Tekakan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 01:58 Skyro wrote:Well specifically talking about Metal or XC the better advice is just to go 6-gate after FE so you have a mobile army to defend your wide open natural, rather than making so many cannons. But like I said I do not personally think it is worth it to FE on these maps because it limits what you can do (i.e. stargate openers after FE is not really viable on these maps). Making an exhorbitant amount of cannons to defend your natural defeats the purpose of the FE in the first place since you are just using so much of your extra econ on defense. 3-gate expand on these maps is way safer and not very economically behind compared to a FE that builds a ton of cannons. You're forgetting to take account that the zerg is not doing a macro build. He's sacrifising doing drones for getting early Roaches therefor the only hard part in this process is to make just enough cannons to survive his Roach Bust.
I'm not forgetting anything. You can hold 2-base roaches coming from a standard 14 gas or pool or hatch first opening with about 3 carefully positioned cannons since you will have sentries to defend, even on close positions on metal. Vs 1-base roach like I said it doesn't matter you can go overkill on cannons since he is all-in at that point.
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3 gate FE is safer than 15 nex, but 15 nex is economically better if you can pull it off. Right? Wrong, on both parts. 15 nex is not a dangerous or risky build at all. The zerg can’t “punish” you for going nexus first unless you’re just greedy or don’t scout well. Meanwhile, 15 nex isn’t necessarily economically better than 3 gate FE, relative to the zerg player. By putting pressure on the Zerg early on, you force him to spend larva on units instead of drones, and both of you are potentially still at the same relative economy had you both just massed probes/drones.
Not true on the second part. FFe is better than 3gate FE in economy, by far. Around mid-game you get 10-15 workers behind zerg with 3 gate FE while with FFE you get equal or superior harvester count.
FFE is definetely stronger build, economically.
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On January 13 2011 05:25 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +3 gate FE is safer than 15 nex, but 15 nex is economically better if you can pull it off. Right? Wrong, on both parts. 15 nex is not a dangerous or risky build at all. The zerg can’t “punish” you for going nexus first unless you’re just greedy or don’t scout well. Meanwhile, 15 nex isn’t necessarily economically better than 3 gate FE, relative to the zerg player. By putting pressure on the Zerg early on, you force him to spend larva on units instead of drones, and both of you are potentially still at the same relative economy had you both just massed probes/drones. Not true on the second part. FFe is better than 3gate FE in economy, by far. Around mid-game you get 10-15 workers behind zerg with 3 gate FE while with FFE you get equal or superior harvester count. FFE is definetely stronger build, economically.
You seem to be assuming that the zerg can drone up nearly freely, a well executed 3 gate FE won't be more behind a zerg then a forge FE really, it all just depends on the map.
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