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On January 13 2011 06:12 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 05:25 UFO wrote:3 gate FE is safer than 15 nex, but 15 nex is economically better if you can pull it off. Right? Wrong, on both parts. 15 nex is not a dangerous or risky build at all. The zerg can’t “punish” you for going nexus first unless you’re just greedy or don’t scout well. Meanwhile, 15 nex isn’t necessarily economically better than 3 gate FE, relative to the zerg player. By putting pressure on the Zerg early on, you force him to spend larva on units instead of drones, and both of you are potentially still at the same relative economy had you both just massed probes/drones. Not true on the second part. FFe is better than 3gate FE in economy, by far. Around mid-game you get 10-15 workers behind zerg with 3 gate FE while with FFE you get equal or superior harvester count. FFE is definetely stronger build, economically. You seem to be assuming that the zerg can drone up nearly freely, a well executed 3 gate FE won't be more behind a zerg then a forge FE really, it all just depends on the map.
It depends on so many factors (amount of larve you forced zerg to spend on defenses, how much you spend on defenses, etc.) it's pretty hard to say. But generally from what I've seen 3-gate sentry expand will be behind slightly economically going into the midgame vs a competent 2-base zerg player, whereas a 15+ nexus is roughly even. I cannot really comment about FFE too much since I dislike FFE as any map which forces me to make a forge first to secure my FE I feel is not worth to FE on.
3-gate expand is safer though, and the reason I FE is not so much for the economical gain but the fact you can different things from having a 2-base economy w/o having to spend all that early gas on sentries and stalkers.
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I'm a mid diamond player, and i've been playing this build for quite a while now (probably november). I had ups and downs based on my understanding of the build and my opponent's response.
Sadly, i'm currently in a down, as most zerg counter it with an hydra push. I usually go stargate into sotrm, but with this hydra bust (which occured mostly on scrap station but not only), they just caught me with my pants down as i only have a few phoenix and a few warpgate units (no templars).
Do you guys have faced that ? Is there some variation to the build to make it work on scrap or should i just abandon it altogether ?
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On January 13 2011 16:42 Fushin wrote:
I'm a mid diamond player, and i've been playing this build for quite a while now (probably november). I had ups and downs based on my understanding of the build and my opponent's response.
Sadly, i'm currently in a down, as most zerg counter it with an hydra push. I usually go stargate into sotrm, but with this hydra bust (which occured mostly on scrap station but not only), they just caught me with my pants down as i only have a few phoenix and a few warpgate units (no templars).
Do you guys have faced that ? Is there some variation to the build to make it work on scrap or should i just abandon it altogether ?
Your best bet is to harass as much as possible with your phoenixes to delay them. I usually target gas drones first but will kill a queen if it's alone and I feel I will have the time to do so. Also try to pick off small clumps of hydras (especially as the first batch of hydras pop) to whittle their numbers and delay their push.
You should see the push coming a mile away since they will have to break through the rocks, so judge accordingly. Worst case scenario you make a few more cannons. You should have been constantly making zealots as your mineral dump as well if you opened double stargate off FE so sandwiching the hydras with your zealots/voids and cannons can hold it off fairly well if they attack your main ramp (make sure to bust down your backdoor rocks before this so this is possible). If they go through the backdoor you should be able to hold it easy as it is very easy to defend since it is such a narrow choke.
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I usually go phoenix out of 1 stargate, maybe i need 2 to have a high enough phoenix count to harass efficiently before the hydras get there.
I'll take your advice and train it this evening, thanks.
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Diamond 2500 and i am VERY VERY angry now jsut ragequitted -.-
He will just go MASS ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH. He will just MASS THE SHIT and overrun you. there is nothing you can do.
Roach are just cheap as hell and you can't beat them with gateway units!
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and again -.- common base race. Tried it with void rays and phoenix. One is in the others base, both destroyng the other. In the end the massed roaches win -.-
I HATE STARCRAFT II FOR THIS BASERACE SHIT
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On January 17 2011 01:44 CuChullain wrote:
Diamond 2500 and i am VERY VERY angry now jsut ragequitted -.-
He will just go MASS ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH. He will just MASS THE SHIT and overrun you. there is nothing you can do.
Roach are just cheap as hell and you can't beat them with gateway units!
Stalker/Sentry/Immortal+ maybe Voids?
When does he attack lol and show a replay?
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On January 17 2011 02:34 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 01:44 CuChullain wrote:
Diamond 2500 and i am VERY VERY angry now jsut ragequitted -.-
He will just go MASS ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH ROACH. He will just MASS THE SHIT and overrun you. there is nothing you can do.
Roach are just cheap as hell and you can't beat them with gateway units! Stalker/Sentry/Immortal+ maybe Voids? When does he attack lol and show a replay?
Go hit find match, get paired vs zerg, see first hand.
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On January 13 2011 06:41 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 06:12 Markwerf wrote:On January 13 2011 05:25 UFO wrote:3 gate FE is safer than 15 nex, but 15 nex is economically better if you can pull it off. Right? Wrong, on both parts. 15 nex is not a dangerous or risky build at all. The zerg can’t “punish” you for going nexus first unless you’re just greedy or don’t scout well. Meanwhile, 15 nex isn’t necessarily economically better than 3 gate FE, relative to the zerg player. By putting pressure on the Zerg early on, you force him to spend larva on units instead of drones, and both of you are potentially still at the same relative economy had you both just massed probes/drones. Not true on the second part. FFe is better than 3gate FE in economy, by far. Around mid-game you get 10-15 workers behind zerg with 3 gate FE while with FFE you get equal or superior harvester count. FFE is definetely stronger build, economically. You seem to be assuming that the zerg can drone up nearly freely, a well executed 3 gate FE won't be more behind a zerg then a forge FE really, it all just depends on the map. It depends on so many factors (amount of larve you forced zerg to spend on defenses, how much you spend on defenses, etc.) it's pretty hard to say. But generally from what I've seen 3-gate sentry expand will be behind slightly economically going into the midgame vs a competent 2-base zerg player, whereas a 15+ nexus is roughly even. I cannot really comment about FFE too much since I dislike FFE as any map which forces me to make a forge first to secure my FE I feel is not worth to FE on. 3-gate expand is safer though, and the reason I FE is not so much for the economical gain but the fact you can different things from having a 2-base economy w/o having to spend all that early gas on sentries and stalkers.
I don't think 3 gate expand would be the go to PvZ opening for strong players if they were behind economically going into midgame with it. I think a huge factor that you are ignoring is how early zerg can take their third. Against FFE they can double expand immediately, or they can drone really hard early and then pump enough units to take their third relatively early and hold off your 2 base timing.
OTOH, against 3 gate expand you have a much larger force early on, and in particular, a ton of sentries. This makes droning harder early on and makes taking a third early impossible. On many maps, with a large stalker/sentry force you can force a cancel or kill a hatch and prevent the zerg from ever engaging you. Also, the sick number of force fields you have makes it so much harder to stop 2 base colossus timings.
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Okay i was little bit in a rage while writing my double post. Sorry for that. I take full responsability ;-)
Now i'm calm but i still can't see roaches without the wish to vomit. Well i will soon post some replay with either gates, robo or stargate.
Just to mention: If you go Void ray AND Immortals, firstly you will have a lack of minerals cause it's too much different tech and as the Zerg scouts it, and he will just by trying a push, he will easily switch to hydras. (Not to mention that you are not in the position to pump the same quantity Colossi in the same time Zerg can get hydralisk then and shitloads of hydras)
If I go Void rays out of 2 Gateways he will just run with his roach army straight into my base as soon as he realizes i am straight there with about 4-7 Void rays. It's the most hated base race scenario where i already lost one time due to a drone becoming an assimilator...
Well in fact sometimes Gateway units or High temps works of course. But this is only if zerg is lazy. A good zerg will scout with tasting roach pushes and see the strength of my army and push in as hell^^
BTW: Of course P late game army is death to Z late game army (except broodlords^^) but as we both macro zerg will soon make double expo and in this position he is just easily ahead. So i have to set pressure (I think) after 2 Bases are running.
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On January 17 2011 06:36 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 06:41 Skyro wrote:On January 13 2011 06:12 Markwerf wrote:On January 13 2011 05:25 UFO wrote:3 gate FE is safer than 15 nex, but 15 nex is economically better if you can pull it off. Right? Wrong, on both parts. 15 nex is not a dangerous or risky build at all. The zerg can’t “punish” you for going nexus first unless you’re just greedy or don’t scout well. Meanwhile, 15 nex isn’t necessarily economically better than 3 gate FE, relative to the zerg player. By putting pressure on the Zerg early on, you force him to spend larva on units instead of drones, and both of you are potentially still at the same relative economy had you both just massed probes/drones. Not true on the second part. FFe is better than 3gate FE in economy, by far. Around mid-game you get 10-15 workers behind zerg with 3 gate FE while with FFE you get equal or superior harvester count. FFE is definetely stronger build, economically. You seem to be assuming that the zerg can drone up nearly freely, a well executed 3 gate FE won't be more behind a zerg then a forge FE really, it all just depends on the map. It depends on so many factors (amount of larve you forced zerg to spend on defenses, how much you spend on defenses, etc.) it's pretty hard to say. But generally from what I've seen 3-gate sentry expand will be behind slightly economically going into the midgame vs a competent 2-base zerg player, whereas a 15+ nexus is roughly even. I cannot really comment about FFE too much since I dislike FFE as any map which forces me to make a forge first to secure my FE I feel is not worth to FE on. 3-gate expand is safer though, and the reason I FE is not so much for the economical gain but the fact you can different things from having a 2-base economy w/o having to spend all that early gas on sentries and stalkers. I don't think 3 gate expand would be the go to PvZ opening for strong players if they were behind economically going into midgame with it. I think a huge factor that you are ignoring is how early zerg can take their third. Against FFE they can double expand immediately, or they can drone really hard early and then pump enough units to take their third relatively early and hold off your 2 base timing. OTOH, against 3 gate expand you have a much larger force early on, and in particular, a ton of sentries. This makes droning harder early on and makes taking a third early impossible. On many maps, with a large stalker/sentry force you can force a cancel or kill a hatch and prevent the zerg from ever engaging you. Also, the sick number of force fields you have makes it so much harder to stop 2 base colossus timings.
You think? Sounds like you don't really know. It's the "go-to" opening because it is viable on all maps and is the safest opening to get into the midgame, but you will be behind economically vs competent zergs. That's not necessarily a big problem though because on equal economies protoss is usually at an advantage (thus the old zerg adage of "stay at least 1 base ahead of protoss").
Like I said about FFE I can't really comment since I do not like forge-FE since on maps where you are forced to forge first before FE, I don't feel it is worth it to FE to begin with. But Nexus first builds are completely viable on certain maps (in particular Scrap and Jungle, and to a lesser extend Shakuras and LT) and there is simply no way for a zerg player to defend their 3rd on Scrap and Jungle from a double stargate or 6-gate. It is easier to defend (but still hard) on Shakuras and LT, but at the same time a Protoss' third will also be easier to defend, so that's the rub. All this "just take an early 3rd" logic is simply not true on these maps, and on ones that it is true on I do not recommend FE'ing on (though some pros seem to still do it on occassion).
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On January 17 2011 06:36 CuChullain wrote:
Okay i was little bit in a rage while writing my double post. Sorry for that. I take full responsability ;-)
Now i'm calm but i still can't see roaches without the wish to vomit. Well i will soon post some replay with either gates, robo or stargate.
Just to mention: If you go Void ray AND Immortals, firstly you will have a lack of minerals cause it's too much different tech and as the Zerg scouts it, and he will just by trying a push, he will easily switch to hydras. (Not to mention that you are not in the position to pump the same quantity Colossi in the same time Zerg can get hydralisk then and shitloads of hydras)
If I go Void rays out of 2 Gateways he will just run with his roach army straight into my base as soon as he realizes i am straight there with about 4-7 Void rays. It's the most hated base race scenario where i already lost one time due to a drone becoming an assimilator...
Well in fact sometimes Gateway units or High temps works of course. But this is only if zerg is lazy. A good zerg will scout with tasting roach pushes and see the strength of my army and push in as hell^^
BTW: Of course P late game army is death to Z late game army (except broodlords^^) but as we both macro zerg will soon make double expo and in this position he is just easily ahead. So i have to set pressure (I think) after 2 Bases are running.
I open double stargate after FE and I'm perfectly fine vs roaches. Perhaps your stargates are too late? My first void pops out ~8 mins, and a 2 base roach push only hits you slightly earlier than that (you need ~3 cannons to hold the roaches until your first void pops out). If he continues to pump roaches at that point it is a losing proposition for him. It sort of sounds like you are making too many voids and trying to be too aggressive with them, and while that is viable if you see a vulnerability there it isn't something you should force every game.
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If you go phoenixes vs the roaches, the push will hit you before you can get the voidrays out. Even one round of chronoboosted phoenixes.
Basically what happens is your opponent hits you with a bunch of roaches and does what damage he can. If he spots a voidray, he'll back off until burrow. Meanwhile, he's massing hydras at home, which makes Phoenix harass weak. You're now in a situation where you can try to tech to colossus or HT. Either choice is suboptimal, and either way you're behind. The push comes 2-3 minutes later, and it takes VERY good force fields to hold off. Unless your opponent makes a mistake, you're probably dead here.
If your opponent backs off again, he has complete map control and usually you get starved on two bases and are forced to make a push out at some point. The reinforcing kills you afterward.
PvZ is easy for me in every situation except the 2 base roach timing attack. It's really quite difficult to hold off if executed correctly.
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i stoped to do 15nexus because of this 2bases mass roach all in around 8min 
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On January 17 2011 06:36 CuChullain wrote:
Okay i was little bit in a rage while writing my double post. Sorry for that. I take full responsability ;-)
Now i'm calm but i still can't see roaches without the wish to vomit. Well i will soon post some replay with either gates, robo or stargate.
Just to mention: If you go Void ray AND Immortals, firstly you will have a lack of minerals cause it's too much different tech and as the Zerg scouts it, and he will just by trying a push, he will easily switch to hydras. (Not to mention that you are not in the position to pump the same quantity Colossi in the same time Zerg can get hydralisk then and shitloads of hydras)
If I go Void rays out of 2 Gateways he will just run with his roach army straight into my base as soon as he realizes i am straight there with about 4-7 Void rays. It's the most hated base race scenario where i already lost one time due to a drone becoming an assimilator...
Well in fact sometimes Gateway units or High temps works of course. But this is only if zerg is lazy. A good zerg will scout with tasting roach pushes and see the strength of my army and push in as hell^^
BTW: Of course P late game army is death to Z late game army (except broodlords^^) but as we both macro zerg will soon make double expo and in this position he is just easily ahead. So i have to set pressure (I think) after 2 Bases are running.
Lol you 2 gate void ray expand?
Bad, bad, bad.
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I realize I'm late to the party here.... but was there discussion of 15 nex vs 11pool?
Lot of transitions from 11 pool could be dangerous to nexus, but if zerg opts economy and protoss reacts, that's going to be a problem.
Assuming that the protoss player is good enough to know the difference between 10pool and 11pool, with this build, he WOULDN'T abandon 15nexus? or he would?
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On January 17 2011 08:22 wherebugsgo wrote:
If you go phoenixes vs the roaches, the push will hit you before you can get the voidrays out. Even one round of chronoboosted phoenixes.
Basically what happens is your opponent hits you with a bunch of roaches and does what damage he can. If he spots a voidray, he'll back off until burrow. Meanwhile, he's massing hydras at home, which makes Phoenix harass weak. You're now in a situation where you can try to tech to colossus or HT. Either choice is suboptimal, and either way you're behind. The push comes 2-3 minutes later, and it takes VERY good force fields to hold off. Unless your opponent makes a mistake, you're probably dead here.
If your opponent backs off again, he has complete map control and usually you get starved on two bases and are forced to make a push out at some point. The reinforcing kills you afterward.
PvZ is easy for me in every situation except the 2 base roach timing attack. It's really quite difficult to hold off if executed correctly.
Good. Now Toss can expand because of mobility. Hydras are not that fast, so void rays can easily go around picking things off. If you split the hydras up, the void rays can pick off hydras.
When Toss expands he can go carrier/zealot, colossi, or templars, and he has a lot of time to do this with a bunch of cannons.
Cannons + air + choke > roach/hydra
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So far I been using this build and I have won many of my games, excluding 6 pool on cross (inability to scout), failing to scout the army composition, or overlord drops (I now know how to defend drops).
However, when the zerg double expands, I usually cannon the 3rd. The problem is that if he catches me with his 2-4 lings before I can get there and usually I fail. I try to double expand, but 3 expo zerg macro is incredibly powerful. I notice that I did not use chrono-boost for a while which would've got me 2 extra probes, but it wouldn't really matter.
Should I not have expoed? Also, I saw a post that sad Socke used a 6/7 for to beat Dimaga's double expo. How great is it? Massing gates to do a timing attack before his expoes are fully saturated seems like a good idea. I also think a multi-pronged attack will do pretty well (sending 3-4 zealots into 3rd to take out drones --> he comes in to try to take it out --> quickly take out 2nd or snipe more drones and run away).
Here is a replay:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140148-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
He simply drones up, gets a 3rd, and masses up roaches quickly with his new production capabilities. Also, I got kinda tripped off when I couldn't cannon his 3rd (xD) so I kinda paused throughout the game and got supply-blocked.
Also, his supply difference was amazing: he was around 40-60 supply ahead of me with queens + roaches.
I just wasn't used to it. He didn't go hydras too so that tripped me even further.
Thanks.
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At pro level, the most used follow up to 15 nexii is indeed a timing. Ofc, depends pretty much on what have you scouted, but +1 weapons/6gate/11minute timing is the most used options by pros, and i personally defeated better rated players than i with that strat.
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EPT
