EPT[G] PvZ 15 Nexus - Page 4
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
This is not necessarily a bad thing but rather a stylistic choice. I feel the game is much harder to play reactively. | ||
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yarkO
Canada810 Posts
Can you explain a bit why you decide to make the cut at 15? When I play, I normally cut at 16 until I have Forge, Nex, Gate and Cannon, maybe even Gas, before adding on that 2nd Pylon and resuming Probes. | ||
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
On October 12 2010 20:45 Keilah wrote: Proxy hatch to break the wall with spines is an interesting idea, but you can't contain a toss with defensive structures! He just makes a pylon on the edge of the cliff and warps in his units below it. Or gets a warp prism. Or learns blink. With a second nexus he'll be able to chrono out warpgate very fast if he chooses, so don't say it's worthwhile just for the delay. Also if he notices the proxy hatch all he needs to do is make a cannon or two in front of the wall and you can't spine push him. If you make units to kill the cannon(s), you aren't making drones, and you will lose a few units as well. Depending on the map the contain might work better or worse. Plus, you can kill proxy pylons on cliff if they are close enough to the edge and you spot them OL (using some roaches or a spinecrawler there) The contain isn't just spinecrawlers outside of his wall. You spread the creep and take all precautions to keep anything from getting out that can go over cliffs like blink and collossus, warp ins. I don't think blinking down a cliff would be a problem if you are spreading creep all the way around his main and expo area, putting a couple crawlers around the cliffs and OL to spot for cliff edge pylons (thinking LT here). Lings are great against stalkers if they are on the map without zealots, and if they are blinking to get out, they won't have the zealots. Only thing that really hard to stop from getting out is the warp prism. Need excelent scouting to stop a warp prism flying round the side of the map, especially if pheonixes have been going around blasting OL. But if the protoss is oppening pheonix after FE like in the OP, they are going to have late robo bay. And if they open robo bay, they will have even later pheonix, and you will still have good scouting measures. And as far as him putting cannons up to stop a spine push, spines + some fodder (infested terrans, lings) will be enough to bust down any forward cannons. If there is any mass stalker blink, which would be likely, you just have to throw extra minerals into more lings than crawlers. Ling infestor is a good counter vs blink stalkers (especially if 1.2 buffs FG to stop them from blinking away too) | ||
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freshjive
United States32 Posts
Here is my original post where I got torn to pieces http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155040 Thanks for giving me the confidence to keep working on it. Best. | ||
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Hunch
Canada336 Posts
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mappiechampion
Sweden155 Posts
I can't move out of my base because I will get trapped by lings and killed of rather fast, scouting is denied by the mutas. Finally the zerg takes a fourth and I have to move out and die because he has like 20-30 more supply than me. How do you deal with mutaling? | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 13 2010 01:18 yarkO wrote: Can you explain a bit why you decide to make the cut at 15? When I play, I normally cut at 16 until I have Forge, Nex, Gate and Cannon, maybe even Gas, before adding on that 2nd Pylon and resuming Probes. I cut at 15 to make sure I can get a forge up and cannons in time to stop a 14 pool (5-10 seconds). Note that I'm still placing my nexus down before the forge. Against hatch first I don't cut probes at all. If you stop probe production any more than that then you're really just undoing all the eco gain you get from that early of a nexus. On October 13 2010 05:56 mappiechampion wrote: I think this build is really good. I am a 1200 Protoss and use this on big maps against Z, though I have a really hard time dealing with muta/ling. The Z knows there won't be any pressure from me so he takes a fast third and gets like 70 zerglings and 10-20 mutas. I can't move out of my base because I will get trapped by lings and killed of rather fast, scouting is denied by the mutas. Finally the zerg takes a fourth and I have to move out and die because he has like 20-30 more supply than me. How do you deal with mutaling? You would probably have to show a replay, the fast stargate is already designed with countering muta/ling in mind. My guess is that your micro is suspect, as in you're not kiting mutas well enough with phoenix and not placing good enough FFs against lings. You need to be proactive with your phoenix - if he's not chasing your phoenix around with his mutas, you should be hunting down his mutas with your phoenix, and not letting him mass up. Most zergs will stop making mutas entirely upon seeing phoenix, but if for some reason they continue massing mutas then continue chrono'ed phoenix production and invest in air upgrades. Some prefer to add a 2nd stargate, but that's too much micro for me. I've also heard people having success with archons, so getting an early council for blink and then going for templar may not be a bad idea either. | ||
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korean7793
United States61 Posts
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NET
United States703 Posts
The modern day Forge Fast expand. Now we just have to incorporate Dark Templar along with your Phoenix play and call it the Bisu Build v2! One thing I do note is that usually during the time you are about to get your Twilight Council up, you have around 1000 minerals and about 300 gas. A suggestion I have is maybe get plus 1 shield and warp in a set of zealots instead of stalkers to balance out your cash reserves. Its just a thought, but I did notice that as a trend in some of your replays, and it may make the build that much more solid. A 1/1/1 Gate Army timing push would be that much more devastating. | ||
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 13 2010 08:41 Anihc wrote: Most zergs will stop making mutas entirely upon seeing phoenix, but if for some reason they continue massing mutas then continue chrono'ed phoenix production and invest in air upgrades. Some prefer to add a 2nd stargate, but that's too much micro for me. I've also heard people having success with archons, so getting an early council for blink and then going for templar may not be a bad idea either. since I was the one suggesting 2 stargates, I try to explain why I think this is imo very necessary vs muta/ling the problem with muta/ling is NOT that it can kill your stuff quickly, but that it can allow zerg to mass-expand while keeping you from expanding yourself; 3 bases cannot be defended with just 3 groups of stalkers unless you have HTs or really, really many cannons; what many seem to forget is, that phoenixes are good vs mutas even WITHOUT MICRO! phoenixes kill mutas in straight up battles cost-effectively; if you add in just a little bit hit and run you are ahead quite comfortably; now you have the chance to harass zerg all over the place while he desperately has to make a tech-switch most critically is imo, that this makes any plans of early game-ending hive-tech reduntant since neither ultras nor brood-lords provide anything vs phoenix-harass; zerg is left without any overlord before he can even start producing them lol so if you give up phoenixes you not only give up map-control and the "attackers-advantage" but you also allow zerg to stick with his plan, that will often be an ultra-tech once he has established the contain; if you are gateway-heavy this could turn out bad; to be perfectly honest, nexus first into 2 stargates is a clear build-order-win if your opponent sticks with mutas; no reason to switch away from phoenixes vs mutas....ever; just my 2 cents On October 13 2010 01:12 Jaeger wrote: This build seems safe and effective enough but in pvz protoss starts with the initiative and zerg has to react, unless he steals initiative with a cheesy early pool. Opening nexus first you really give away your initiative and zerg is free to be exploitive. You don't have the option of just killing him immediately anymore so the impetus is on you to scout and react to what he is doing instead of vice versa. This is not necessarily a bad thing but rather a stylistic choice. I feel the game is much harder to play reactively. tbh I always get the feeling it's the other way round....when I open with early aggression then most of the time zerg just throws up tons of spine-crawlers; then I have to retreat and have to "wait" for zerg to "announce" its tech; will it be mutas? then blink+templars it is; will it be hydras? then colossi are needed; I feel like when I'm not successful with my initial aggression, then I'm already behind because zerg can kinda "force" its tech onto me; nevertheless nexus first into phoenixes is "always" good, even vs quick hydras, because the hydras won't normally arrive before phoenixes and additionally I can trap zerg in his base....moreover zerg can't really safely establish 3 bases because he'd have to split his hydras up; exactly the same situation as with muta-harass vs stalkers; if zerg all-ins me then everything changes anyway....because once I've defeated his troups without major losses I'm "so" ahead economically, that I could run him over probably with just masses of zealots | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
On October 13 2010 16:20 Inori wrote: This BO works on Steppes of War against 12 pool into Roach all in (performed by 1700 Zerg). Just sayin'. It's awesome. :D replay? | ||
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Craixs
Denmark170 Posts
Edit: And you all forget the fact that corruptors OWNS phoenixes so you cannot go air to air with a zerg, which leaves them both with the strongest army and the stronger economy. where you are forced to do effective DT play into a 3rd or into a Big push with HTs and archons, the whole BW idea cannot be done due to the fact that zergs air is stronger than protoss air ( prehaps if you get 200 pop rays it is not but you will not be able to anyway). | ||
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lovewithlea
168 Posts
i'd like to know if the OP or any one else did this build facing a 14 hatch into roach/hydra +1 push. i played quite a few games versus either fast expanding Ps or 3gate expanding Ps. what i did was my standard 14 hatch into full saturation while teching to lair and getting one or two rangeground upgrades. i then pushed with about ~10 roach 10 hydra. if the P goes for stargate he's pretty much dead, in any other case he has to hope to not take too much damage before his colossi pops. which can delayed using 2 overseer. well that's just my experience and probably my enemys reacted poorly - that's why i ask if some of you faced this playing a fast expo with P | ||
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Gnial
Canada907 Posts
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
for corruptor they will not hit ground and your stalker will own them.so dont combat with your phonex.they are for harass and protection only. | ||
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 13 2010 17:46 Craixs wrote: Edit: And you all forget the fact that corruptors OWNS phoenixes so you cannot go air to air with a zerg, which leaves them both with the strongest army and the stronger economy. what a big pile of nonsense, you are obviously theorycrafting and have never, ever used or played against this corruptors own phoenixes in the unit-tester, but in the open field it's pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to do anything with corruptors since they are awfully slow; zerg needs many bases in mid/lategame and definitely can't afford to put tons of corruptors at each base, just to get overrun by mass-stalkers/sentries+"insert-any-tech-you-like" later on; they bring corruptors to one base? no big deal, just fly away to the next one; they split? no big deal, just kill the corruptors with your far superior phoenix-number (moving injured phoenixes away is extremely easy thanks to their awsome speed, if you're on top of your micro you might even take shield damage only) even if the zerg gets corruptors, this shuts down his ability to harass with mutas; mutas are there for hit and run, not to straight-up fight; it's simply impossible for any zerg to do hit and run with muta AND corruptor; also if he seems to tech to hive quickly, you could even switch into mass-void rays, which not only do very decently vs corruptors but straight up roflpwn ultras/broodlords nevertheless the most important thing is still: if they "really" commit to corruptors in order to break your phoenix-force, their won't be anything left for decent anti-ground in mid-game; corruptors don't attack ground by definition, so I don't even need a colossi-tech and can just straight-up mass gateway-units (no harass!)....and attack before zerg can even get a useful number of hive-tech-units; without neither hydras nor muta-harass, there's nothing that would stop me from just marching into the zerg's main with tons and tons of stuff this is the far more important reason why zerg has to get hydras to deal with phoenixes: not only to prevent the harass but also to NOT DIE vs simple gateway-stuff, which is very easy to mass off two bases | ||
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MKZSlice
United States19 Posts
Great idea though. | ||
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