EPT[G] PvZ 15 Nexus - Page 2
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ThE.SparkZ
United States381 Posts
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
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Keilah
731 Posts
That'll keep you safe if he ling rushes, and let you deny his expo with a cannon if he goes hatchery first. When you eventually scout him, if you see that it's safe you can place a nexus before any cannons and you're only very slightly behind economically compared to nexus first. Just a small change that keeps you safe when you scout late and punishes him if he stupidly goes hatch first. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On October 11 2010 12:29 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: Quick question, in your experience does a build similar in nature to this one work against terran or protoss? seems insane vs terran, reaper gonna pwn u. | ||
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vohne
Philippines197 Posts
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Wonderful, well written guide. Will try this in coming PvZ games. A few polish edits I'd recommend: 1) Remind reader to SCOUT for 6-10pool builds before committing to pylon-nexus start. This is implied but not stated. Since the decision making process (see: hard counters) is based on this scout, I would recommend you include it in overview. 2) Chrono probes early on has a second reason: Once you have gateways and later stargates you will have 2 NEXUSES(nexii?) worth of periodic chrono boosts. Huge advantage of this build vs. Other FE builds is earlier energy pool from second nexus. Deserves mention! -Danglars | ||
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Wiro
United States3 Posts
This allowed me to keep things even long enough to engage and the early pheonix gives great map control and scouting. | ||
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PookMasterSlim
United States4 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
really nice write-up, this is why I love TL - awsome replay-collection to show the variety of strats this can beat; there is also a replay from tester vs fruitseller where he WANTS to do this build (he saves up 400 minerals and cuts probes) at 15, but decides to abort when he sees fruitseller going for a 14 pool and puts down forge first; I think this is the core problem/part where you wanna think about switching away and adapting; because if zerg does NOT go for hatch first, then forge before nexus will still put you in a VERY comfortable position and you don't have to pull many probes because you can throw down a cannon asap before gate; then you are safe and just need to pull few probes to block the entrance; although you can definitely hold, from the yabot-testing I've done I always felt that nexus before forge may force you to pull quite many probes to scare the zerg off - because once you lose too many probes and/or delay your tech too much it could easily snowball out of control and leave you behind EDIT: also I'm still not sure if you really want to do this build on maps like xel naga, steppes or delta quadrant....you have to invest so much in defense structures and wall-off to avoid ling-run-by it's not eaven funny; I'm nowhere saying it's not possible, but...well..."feels not right" lol, if you know what I'm trying to say; maps where I've tested it vs ~1.2k zergs (not that good admittedly) but felt fine the whole time are LT, metalopolis, blistering sands and scrap station; also the two new maps are PERFECT for this build, after a quick glance at the easily defendable naturals I knew I'd definitely try nexus first on these two | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 11 2010 19:38 sleepingdog wrote: LOL I just wanted to write something like that on the weekend but decided I can't impress anybody with my ~1k points to convince ppl it is do-able really nice write-up, this is why I love TL - awsome replay-collection to show the variety of strats this can beat; there is also a replay from tester vs fruitseller where he WANTS to do this build (he saves up 400 minerals and cuts probes) at 15, but decides to abort when he sees fruitseller going for a 14 pool and puts down forge first; I think this is the core problem/part where you wanna think about switching away and adapting; because if zerg does NOT go for hatch first, then forge before nexus will still put you in a VERY comfortable position and you don't have to pull many probes because you can throw down a cannon asap before gate; then you are safe and just need to pull few probes to block the entrance; although you can definitely hold, from the yabot-testing I've done I always felt that nexus before forge may force you to pull quite many probes to scare the zerg off - because once you lose too many probes and/or delay your tech too much it could easily snowball out of control and leave you behind EDIT: also I'm still not sure if you really want to do this build on maps like xel naga, steppes or delta quadrant....you have to invest so much in defense structures and wall-off to avoid ling-run-by it's not eaven funny; I'm nowhere saying it's not possible, but...well..."feels not right" lol, if you know what I'm trying to say; maps where I've tested it vs ~1.2k zergs (not that good admittedly) but felt fine the whole time are LT, metalopolis, blistering sands and scrap station; also the two new maps are PERFECT for this build, after a quick glance at the easily defendable naturals I knew I'd definitely try nexus first on these two I'm glad you liked the guide, but I think you're missing the 2 most important points I'm trying to make with it... 1. Nexus before forge is perfectly safe against 14 pool. I don't know about your yabot-testing but from my hundred games of real ladder-testing (and as the cool vs nexgenius gsl rep shows), you don't fall behind at all even if you pull probes. In fact the zerg falls even more behind by hatching those 6 zerglings asap instead of drones to catch up. 2. It works on maps like xel naga or delta quadrant, not just LT or metal (but I'll agree with you that LT and metal are better for it). You only have to invest in additional defense structures if the zerg is investing in an early attack. If you see the zerg double expanding you don't need to make 50 cannons. | ||
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qoiN
Sweden576 Posts
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Lobber
Canada414 Posts
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shenzu88
48 Posts
I always felt that after the initial phase where the zerg can get begin to saturate I fall behind in food very quicky (20+) but this build allows me to get 50+ probes very quickly and harass with pheonixes. The phoenix is the strength of this build. You can begin to pick off many overlords, and force them to go hydra which you want. After 4 phoenixes I go double robo (tasteless: double robo all the way) and pump colossus. At around 130 food you can push out with around 3 colossus to claim your victory before hive tech starts. If they go banelings and kill one of your bases' worth of supply you are still ahead. Banelings would be the WORST response to this build, but it seems that a lot of zergs are opting for it. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156798.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156799.jpg) | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 12 2010 02:58 Anihc wrote: 1. Nexus before forge is perfectly safe against 14 pool. I don't know about your yabot-testing but from my hundred games of real ladder-testing (and as the cool vs nexgenius gsl rep shows), you don't fall behind at all even if you pull probes. In fact the zerg falls even more behind by hatching those 6 zerglings asap instead of drones to catch up. nonono, I believe you 100% that nexus first is safe vs 14 pool and that it puts zerg more behind than you what I meant was, vs 14 pool forge before nexus will put YOU more "in front" than nexus first because you only have to pull 2-3 probes to fill the whole in the wall...although mostly the cannon alone suffices; also depends on the rush distances of course; what I mean is, if you play nexus first and he goes zergling-harass after 14 pool you WILL most likely have to pull probes - this is what I meant, this "probe-pulling" will normally go slightly worse for you economy-wise compared to throwing down the forge asap and delaying the nexus for just a little bit I never intended to challenge that nexus first is hold-able vs 14 pool, it definitely is, and I prefer it on really long rush-distances too (metalopolis cross pos., scrap station; vs hatch first every time when I don't 3 gate sentry-expand) | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 12 2010 06:35 sleepingdog wrote: nonono, I believe you 100% that nexus first is safe vs 14 pool and that it puts zerg more behind than you what I meant was, vs 14 pool forge before nexus will put YOU more "in front" than nexus first because you only have to pull 2-3 probes to fill the whole in the wall...although mostly the cannon alone suffices; also depends on the rush distances of course; what I mean is, if you play nexus first and he goes zergling-harass after 14 pool you WILL most likely have to pull probes - this is what I meant, this "probe-pulling" will normally go slightly worse for you economy-wise compared to throwing down the forge asap and delaying the nexus for just a little bit I never intended to challenge that nexus first is hold-able vs 14 pool, it definitely is, and I prefer it on really long rush-distances too (metalopolis cross pos., scrap station; vs hatch first every time when I don't 3 gate sentry-expand) Oh I see, sorry for misunderstanding you as well, you may be right in that case. However a lot of times zergs who go 14 pool will not make those 6 lings and just opt to expand quickly upon seeing you either go forge and/or nexus first, so I'd still rather drop the nexus first on 15 no matter what. | ||
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KaoReal
Canada340 Posts
 1 Basing always felt really uncomfortable vs zerg to me, and I'd always feel behind economically if I tried another FE build, if I didn't botch it before the 5 minute mark, that is. With this though, I feel like I have some flexibility and the game is in my hands for once. Great guide, tyty. | ||
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Sava90
Denmark144 Posts
I've used it versus both Z and P 5 times now, and I only lost once(~1200point diamond). Though I only tried this once vs P on Jungle Basin where the expo is easy to defend. I get a solid economic lead, and I simply outproduce my opponent. Though it seems like many don't know how to respond properly to this opening yet When they scout me and only see my single pylon, they start to either get a lot of zerglings or in another case throw down a spine crawler(cause they might expect proxy gates from me). I actually feel very safe doing this build, but I feel like a good timing push with maybe 12-14 roaches could be devastating, cause its so hard to scout until you get your robo or whatever tech you are going, due to the delay of the first gateway. Also, beware of Nydus Worms on maps where you can wall off with forge/cannons like Lost Temple or Shakuras Plateau  EDIT: Okay so after a few more games vs P, I can say its much much harder due to proxy pylons/warp prism/blink/stalkers in generel. Think ill just use this for PvZ:D | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
BTW I wouldn't recommend nexus first against P or T... | ||
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Suerte
United States117 Posts
I'm curious though, what is your reasoning when you place your initial cannons. I noticed on a few maps like Scrap station the first one was in your main and the second was in your natural. Is there any reason or is it just that on a map like Scrap where both bases are easily accessible without having to go through the natural to get to your main you just arbitrarily picked one to put the first cannon? | ||
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