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[G] PvZ 15 Nexus - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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ThE.SparkZ
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States381 Posts
October 11 2010 02:54 GMT
#21
Thanks for the guide i've really been curious about fast expands. Thanks for all the reps too :3
A battle between gods is just so damn beautiful
CrazyF1r3f0x
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2120 Posts
October 11 2010 03:29 GMT
#22
Quick question, in your experience does a build similar in nature to this one work against terran or protoss?
"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery."
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
October 11 2010 03:30 GMT
#23
why not adapt your build to state that if you see zerg hatch at expo before pool, or if you scout him last on a 4-player map, you build a forge at 14?

That'll keep you safe if he ling rushes, and let you deny his expo with a cannon if he goes hatchery first.

When you eventually scout him, if you see that it's safe you can place a nexus before any cannons and you're only very slightly behind economically compared to nexus first.

Just a small change that keeps you safe when you scout late and punishes him if he stupidly goes hatch first.
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
October 11 2010 03:31 GMT
#24
On October 11 2010 12:29 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
Quick question, in your experience does a build similar in nature to this one work against terran or protoss?


seems insane vs terran, reaper gonna pwn u.
vohne
Profile Joined September 2010
Philippines197 Posts
October 11 2010 03:38 GMT
#25
This looks like a great guide. I will watch the replays when I get home. I have been trying to add more strategies to my PvZ, currently it is either 4 gate timing push, 2 gate early pressure to voids, zealots charge with stalkers -> DT's, Thanks for this.
Camlito
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Australia4040 Posts
October 11 2010 03:42 GMT
#26
Can't wait for patch 1.2.
sAviOr...
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 11 2010 05:01 GMT
#27
Anihc,

Wonderful, well written guide. Will try this in coming PvZ games.

A few polish edits I'd recommend:

1) Remind reader to SCOUT for 6-10pool builds before committing to pylon-nexus start. This is implied but not stated. Since the decision making process (see: hard counters) is based on this scout, I would recommend you include it in overview.

2) Chrono probes early on has a second reason: Once you have gateways and later stargates you will have 2 NEXUSES(nexii?) worth of periodic chrono boosts. Huge advantage of this build vs. Other FE builds is earlier energy pool from second nexus. Deserves mention!

-Danglars
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Wiro
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 14:36:27
October 11 2010 10:28 GMT
#28
I only tried this for a handful of zerg games tonight but it worked out really well. I was so confused on what to do against zerg because my early aggression never went well enough to put a dent into him or allow me to safely expand.

This allowed me to keep things even long enough to engage and the early pheonix gives great map control and scouting.
Tasteless > Day9
PookMasterSlim
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4 Posts
October 11 2010 10:36 GMT
#29
--- Nuked ---
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 10:44:16
October 11 2010 10:38 GMT
#30
LOL I just wanted to write something like that on the weekend but decided I can't impress anybody with my ~1k points to convince ppl it is do-able

really nice write-up, this is why I love TL - awsome replay-collection to show the variety of strats this can beat; there is also a replay from tester vs fruitseller where he WANTS to do this build (he saves up 400 minerals and cuts probes) at 15, but decides to abort when he sees fruitseller going for a 14 pool and puts down forge first;
I think this is the core problem/part where you wanna think about switching away and adapting; because if zerg does NOT go for hatch first, then forge before nexus will still put you in a VERY comfortable position and you don't have to pull many probes because you can throw down a cannon asap before gate; then you are safe and just need to pull few probes to block the entrance; although you can definitely hold, from the yabot-testing I've done I always felt that nexus before forge may force you to pull quite many probes to scare the zerg off - because once you lose too many probes and/or delay your tech too much it could easily snowball out of control and leave you behind

EDIT: also I'm still not sure if you really want to do this build on maps like xel naga, steppes or delta quadrant....you have to invest so much in defense structures and wall-off to avoid ling-run-by it's not eaven funny; I'm nowhere saying it's not possible, but...well..."feels not right" lol, if you know what I'm trying to say;
maps where I've tested it vs ~1.2k zergs (not that good admittedly) but felt fine the whole time are LT, metalopolis, blistering sands and scrap station; also the two new maps are PERFECT for this build, after a quick glance at the easily defendable naturals I knew I'd definitely try nexus first on these two
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
October 11 2010 17:58 GMT
#31
On October 11 2010 19:38 sleepingdog wrote:
LOL I just wanted to write something like that on the weekend but decided I can't impress anybody with my ~1k points to convince ppl it is do-able

really nice write-up, this is why I love TL - awsome replay-collection to show the variety of strats this can beat; there is also a replay from tester vs fruitseller where he WANTS to do this build (he saves up 400 minerals and cuts probes) at 15, but decides to abort when he sees fruitseller going for a 14 pool and puts down forge first;
I think this is the core problem/part where you wanna think about switching away and adapting; because if zerg does NOT go for hatch first, then forge before nexus will still put you in a VERY comfortable position and you don't have to pull many probes because you can throw down a cannon asap before gate; then you are safe and just need to pull few probes to block the entrance; although you can definitely hold, from the yabot-testing I've done I always felt that nexus before forge may force you to pull quite many probes to scare the zerg off - because once you lose too many probes and/or delay your tech too much it could easily snowball out of control and leave you behind

EDIT: also I'm still not sure if you really want to do this build on maps like xel naga, steppes or delta quadrant....you have to invest so much in defense structures and wall-off to avoid ling-run-by it's not eaven funny; I'm nowhere saying it's not possible, but...well..."feels not right" lol, if you know what I'm trying to say;
maps where I've tested it vs ~1.2k zergs (not that good admittedly) but felt fine the whole time are LT, metalopolis, blistering sands and scrap station; also the two new maps are PERFECT for this build, after a quick glance at the easily defendable naturals I knew I'd definitely try nexus first on these two


I'm glad you liked the guide, but I think you're missing the 2 most important points I'm trying to make with it...

1. Nexus before forge is perfectly safe against 14 pool. I don't know about your yabot-testing but from my hundred games of real ladder-testing (and as the cool vs nexgenius gsl rep shows), you don't fall behind at all even if you pull probes. In fact the zerg falls even more behind by hatching those 6 zerglings asap instead of drones to catch up.

2. It works on maps like xel naga or delta quadrant, not just LT or metal (but I'll agree with you that LT and metal are better for it). You only have to invest in additional defense structures if the zerg is investing in an early attack. If you see the zerg double expanding you don't need to make 50 cannons.
qoiN
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden576 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 18:03:23
October 11 2010 18:03 GMT
#32
Been doing 15nex myself quite a few times, it works really good against z as long as they don't 6pool pretty much. Though, with the roach range change I don't see it as viable :[
Lobber
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada414 Posts
October 11 2010 18:42 GMT
#33
I've done it a few times and it works really well vs any ling/bling action and any sort of muta tech, however, I've been losing to 1 base or 2 base roach, and 2 base hydras...
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
shenzu88
Profile Joined June 2010
48 Posts
October 11 2010 18:46 GMT
#34
I read the build order wrong and was doing 9 pylon and 12 forge 15 nexus. <- This build has won me the last 3 games with top level zergs (1800+) mainly due to the insane amount of probe production, that can keep me in par with zerg production.

I always felt that after the initial phase where the zerg can get begin to saturate I fall behind in food very quicky (20+) but this build allows me to get 50+ probes very quickly and harass with pheonixes.

The phoenix is the strength of this build. You can begin to pick off many overlords, and force them to go hydra which you want. After 4 phoenixes I go double robo (tasteless: double robo all the way) and pump colossus. At around 130 food you can push out with around 3 colossus to claim your victory before hive tech starts.

If they go banelings and kill one of your bases' worth of supply you are still ahead. Banelings would be the WORST response to this build, but it seems that a lot of zergs are opting for it.

[image loading]

[image loading]


sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
October 11 2010 21:35 GMT
#35
On October 12 2010 02:58 Anihc wrote:
1. Nexus before forge is perfectly safe against 14 pool. I don't know about your yabot-testing but from my hundred games of real ladder-testing (and as the cool vs nexgenius gsl rep shows), you don't fall behind at all even if you pull probes. In fact the zerg falls even more behind by hatching those 6 zerglings asap instead of drones to catch up.


nonono, I believe you 100% that nexus first is safe vs 14 pool and that it puts zerg more behind than you

what I meant was, vs 14 pool forge before nexus will put YOU more "in front" than nexus first because you only have to pull 2-3 probes to fill the whole in the wall...although mostly the cannon alone suffices; also depends on the rush distances of course; what I mean is, if you play nexus first and he goes zergling-harass after 14 pool you WILL most likely have to pull probes - this is what I meant, this "probe-pulling" will normally go slightly worse for you economy-wise compared to throwing down the forge asap and delaying the nexus for just a little bit

I never intended to challenge that nexus first is hold-able vs 14 pool, it definitely is, and I prefer it on really long rush-distances too (metalopolis cross pos., scrap station; vs hatch first every time when I don't 3 gate sentry-expand)
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
October 11 2010 22:20 GMT
#36
On October 12 2010 06:35 sleepingdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2010 02:58 Anihc wrote:
1. Nexus before forge is perfectly safe against 14 pool. I don't know about your yabot-testing but from my hundred games of real ladder-testing (and as the cool vs nexgenius gsl rep shows), you don't fall behind at all even if you pull probes. In fact the zerg falls even more behind by hatching those 6 zerglings asap instead of drones to catch up.


nonono, I believe you 100% that nexus first is safe vs 14 pool and that it puts zerg more behind than you

what I meant was, vs 14 pool forge before nexus will put YOU more "in front" than nexus first because you only have to pull 2-3 probes to fill the whole in the wall...although mostly the cannon alone suffices; also depends on the rush distances of course; what I mean is, if you play nexus first and he goes zergling-harass after 14 pool you WILL most likely have to pull probes - this is what I meant, this "probe-pulling" will normally go slightly worse for you economy-wise compared to throwing down the forge asap and delaying the nexus for just a little bit

I never intended to challenge that nexus first is hold-able vs 14 pool, it definitely is, and I prefer it on really long rush-distances too (metalopolis cross pos., scrap station; vs hatch first every time when I don't 3 gate sentry-expand)


Oh I see, sorry for misunderstanding you as well, you may be right in that case. However a lot of times zergs who go 14 pool will not make those 6 lings and just opt to expand quickly upon seeing you either go forge and/or nexus first, so I'd still rather drop the nexus first on 15 no matter what.
KaoReal
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada340 Posts
October 11 2010 22:29 GMT
#37
WOW I actually feel like I have direction in my game against zerg now, thanks a lot
1 Basing always felt really uncomfortable vs zerg to me, and I'd always feel behind economically if I tried another FE build, if I didn't botch it before the 5 minute mark, that is.
With this though, I feel like I have some flexibility and the game is in my hands for once.
Great guide, tyty.
Life can only be understood backwards, but must be lived forward
Sava90
Profile Joined July 2010
Denmark144 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-11 23:47:33
October 11 2010 22:51 GMT
#38
I love this opening! Thx for the guide.

I've used it versus both Z and P 5 times now, and I only lost once(~1200point diamond). Though I only tried this once vs P on Jungle Basin where the expo is easy to defend. I get a solid economic lead, and I simply outproduce my opponent.

Though it seems like many don't know how to respond properly to this opening yet When they scout me and only see my single pylon, they start to either get a lot of zerglings or in another case throw down a spine crawler(cause they might expect proxy gates from me).

I actually feel very safe doing this build, but I feel like a good timing push with maybe 12-14 roaches could be devastating, cause its so hard to scout until you get your robo or whatever tech you are going, due to the delay of the first gateway.

Also, beware of Nydus Worms on maps where you can wall off with forge/cannons like Lost Temple or Shakuras Plateau


EDIT: Okay so after a few more games vs P, I can say its much much harder due to proxy pylons/warp prism/blink/stalkers in generel. Think ill just use this for PvZ:D
Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the present.
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
October 11 2010 23:28 GMT
#39
Hmm it's interesting to hear that so many people are having trouble against roaches when using this build, for me roaches are the easiest to handle. Anyone have a replay losing to roaches with this?

BTW I wouldn't recommend nexus first against P or T...
Suerte
Profile Joined July 2010
United States117 Posts
October 12 2010 00:20 GMT
#40
Exciting! I've been doing a 3 gate expand build vs Zerg lately however that seems incredibly weak in many cases so hopefully this fills the gap. I really enjoy being able to not 1 base games so this is awsome news to see a build like this. Thanks for all the replays as well!

I'm curious though, what is your reasoning when you place your initial cannons. I noticed on a few maps like Scrap station the first one was in your main and the second was in your natural. Is there any reason or is it just that on a map like Scrap where both bases are easily accessible without having to go through the natural to get to your main you just arbitrarily picked one to put the first cannon?
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