[G] PvZ Antimage's Void Ray Expo Build

Antimage

Canada1293 Posts

August 04 2010 03:26 GMT

PvZ - Antimage's Void Ray Expo Build

Disclaimer:
This guide is not 100% complete. I rushed it out but I will continue to address concerns and mid/late game transitions if they are unclear later on, but a lot of people wanted to see it so here it goes...

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With zerg players like Sheth, SLush, and Idra leading the way, the imbalance in PvZ has begun to stand out. Surprise 6 gate into 2 robo colossi builds put you too behind economically to be effective against anyone competent. 2 gate or 3 gate robo gives up map control and against a good flanking zerg army, you stand no chance.

Playing any of those above builds straight up against a top notch zerg will put him too ahead in army count in worker count, and this build is to balance it out (and give Protoss an edge).

The difference between this and any comparatively ineffective 2 gate robo or 3 gate expand builds (which I adopted back in beta), is that you force hydras because roaches melt under 2-4 void rays. Thus, your colossi will be doubly effective, your expo is out faster so you have 4 geysers to tech switch if you find it necessary.

Side note:
I call this my Void Ray Expo build, but it’s also kind of a 1-1-1, but you’ll have to adjust your transitions to what you see. You can always get your robo before your second and third gates if you see zerg playing standard macro style, but that’s not a guarantee.

Begin: Antimage's Void Ray Expo Build

This build is designed to put you on even footing against a fast expanding zerg player.

Just like Sheth intends to make mini-Sheths with his infamous ZvP thread, so I will make mini-Antimages to combat those mini-Sheths.

Details:
Step 1: Choose protoss. Hate on opponent for choosing imba zerg. Nah I kid.

...

1 gate-core opening, blocking ramp with gate and core. You'll need two units to fully block it, but it is infinitely safer than blocking with pylons (banelings anyone?), if anyone still does that.

Get your second gas as soon as you can, at around when your core is about 200 HP up. If you don't scout a fast expo and see 2 gases or anything strange (roach warren, etc, baneling nest), then this build is probably not the best one to go for.

Usually, you should be able to put your second gas up before starting your zealot (which may or may not even need a chrono depending on how many lings initially pop out). This build is designed to counter Idra type play - which means whoring drones like the dirty zergs they are.

A basic rule of thumb in PvZ: against a regular zerg macro build, you can afford to make your core and then your first zealot, without even chrono'ing it. It'll be out in time, and you can chrono a second zealot (or stalker if you have time to block with it) if they went gas/pool/hatch in which case there's a threat of mass speedlings, so your block has to hold.

Got your gas stolen? Don’t worry about it, just kill it and get your stargate anyway. You will need to add 1 or 2 gates before your robo since you won’t have enough gas to sustain it after your first few void rays.

Once your core is done and you have a stalker building (to try to deny scouting/complete your wall), begin your stargate off two gases. Doesn't matter if the zerg sees it with an overlord. The point here is to force more queens off the two zerg bases.

He sees it coming!

Doesn’t matter if you know it’s coming bro. =)

Once your first void ray is out (chrono'ed - you don't need to chrono warp gate tech), send it to the zerg base and rally your stargate to that unit.

This opening forces spores if they drone too much. Further delaying their tech. Also note that here that SLush is in the red supply.

At the same time, move out with your 3-4 zealots and 1 stalker and claim your natural. Expand with your next 400, all the while continuing to pump void rays non-stop. With your void rays, try to inflict as much damage as possible. Snipe off overlords, extractors, whatever you can lay your dirty protoss hands on. I prefer to go for the overlords - they go down faster and delay the hydra counter effectively with a smaller risk of dying to queens.

In this case, when they mass more lings, you want to add more gates before your colossus to defend your expo. Your void rays should see the lings.

Your next tech choice depends on what you see with your void rays. If there are signs that they teched faster to lair than normally, make 2 more gates and a robo, cutting probes if you're worried. Once you robotics facility finishes, get your support bay and chrono out colossi ASAP. If however you spot or suspect mutas (both natural geysers are taken), add on 2 more gateways and go heavier on stalkers/sentries, while getting +1 – cut some probes to get up to 5-6 gates so you can further outmuscle the fragile muta army. From here on out, it's a regular macro game.

Information received! If you’re colo is late, add a forge and a few more gates immediately!

Defending that initial push once they feel they have enough hydras. If you feel you can’t defend adequately, get a forge up with your gates/robo and cannon up a little.

The zerg player may choose to expo again. However, your void rays should take care of that. Note the minimap, how all close bases are scouted with the void rays.

Deny more expos with your void rays. It’ll be 2 base against 2 base on a map like metal.

Another expo deny. Note the huge differential in worker count.

Once your colossi numbers start building up, up your gateway count. You’ll need it for late game if the game draws out. Start with stalker/sentry to deal with anything that isn’t ultras.

Ahh, the beauty of the void ray/colossus/stalker/sentry ball. Force field makes it impossible for a ground army to be able to position well at the same time the air units hit. They won’t get good army positioning against you.

Yes, it beats a maxed out army if the zerg players decides to go mutas. Just sit tight, and float around the middle so their mutas can’t roam free without the threat of a backstab into their base.

End game:

Looks a bit barren, doesn’t it? This is what happens when zerg tries to tech to ultras. They can’t defend their 3rd expo in time once you have 3 or 4 colossi out.

Ultras may work pretty well against this strategy but once you already have a huge econ advantage and many gates, you can switch it up and go heavier on zealots and high temp.

Weaknesses:
Timing pushes with fast hydras will really push your defenses. If you suspect this coming, you might even want to consider sentries/cannons to buy yourself some time.

Mutas will keep you in your base longer as your ground army is weaker, but once you add more gates, you'll be able to abuse sentry/stalker/guardian shield/ground upgrades and you'll be ahead again in no time.

Mass ling is also a great threat if you do not scout it properly. If you see mass ling coming, prepare acordingly with heavy zealots. Once your colossus is out, with good enough force fields, you're gold.

Worker counts:

Vs machine, after the hydra counter is repelled (up 2)

Vs masterasia, after the hydra counter is repelled (up 8)

Huge worker count differential when opponent fails to do damage with mass speedlings (up 13)

Large worker differential while zerg tries (but fails to) put up a third after failing the hydra push (up 13)

Author’s note:
My laptop died so I can't really play SC2 anymore; it starts up properly maybe 10% of the time - I'll be playing on a friend's laptop in the meanwhile. Please see my blog for more details and how you can help!
Click here!

Replays here

[url blocked]

Antimage

Canada1293 Posts

August 04 2010 03:27 GMT

Second post reserved for Q&A, user testimonials, etc.

On August 04 2010 16:00 teamsolid wrote:
Wouldn't a hydra --> roach --> corruptor --> broodlord strategy counter this pretty nicely?

Your colossi melt hydras, your void rays with colossi/stalkers do pretty well against roaches. You'll be ready for the transition to roaches and corruptors very well. You're not dedicating yourself too much to colossi or void rays, just 3-5 of each and you're going with gateway units for the bulk of your army.

On August 04 2010 17:16 Ordained wrote:
I haven't checked out the replays yet, but are there any of you losing or showing how a Zerg can fight this? This build looks wonderful by the way, I am definitely trying it out when I offrace.

Strifeco beat me when I was still fine-tuning the strategy. He immediately went for fast hydras, cut drones to do so and arrived at my door with way too many for me to handle. The protoss player will have to peek at drone counts and other signs to be able to see it coming. It can be defended though, with 2-3 cannons and gates if your colossus does not come out on time.

On August 04 2010 18:52 Alpina wrote:
Haven't faced this strat but looks like hydra/roach army with corruptors would counter that.

You are forcing hydras by void rays, so that you can counter them with colossi, for which your opponent will either get roaches or corruptors. In the meanwhile, a key point is that you get your expo running faster than with other strategies, and will be able to keep up with any tech switches (e.g. with HT tech or additional gates, etc)

On August 04 2010 19:55 Whole wrote:
Do you think you could make 3 early Phoenixes instead of 2 Void Rays if you deny scouting? Eventually switching to Void Ray later on. I was going to try some Stargate openings today, and I was favoring Phoenix over Void Ray against Zerg.

Edit: How early do you start saving Chronoboost? When the Cyber Core finishes or what?

Phoenixes won't be able to fend off early pushes. I also start saving chronoboost after my nexus starts building (which is about when warpgate tech finishes anyway). I like to have 100/100 to get my first colossus out asap, which makes a huge difference in the initial zerg push (if it comes).

On August 04 2010 20:30 Plexa wrote:
You build a lot of VRs every game, yet never research speed. Have you considered it? Speed allows them to outrun hydras and their harass potential skyrockets.

Void rays are used as a transition. Since they were nerfed to 6 range, they just don't do well at all against hydralisks, so I wouldn't bother continuing to build them or invest further in it. I suppose if my opponent goes heavy roaches (but really, who does that against air?), I'll get more void rays but VR speed is too much of an investment of gas I'd rather spend on other tech.

On August 04 2010 23:14 FreeZEternal wrote:
I've been adding void rays in my play vs zerg. The thing is if you screw up with your first VR and die to Queens it's like GG 80% -.-;;

On August 04 2010 23:28 ensign_lee wrote:
How do you deal with just mass queens eating up your void rays?

That's fine. You should react fast to not lose your first VR, but if you do, it's used as a transition to secure your expo anyway. You don't *need* to do damage with your void rays, you just want to secure your expo by using them offensively, like using corsairs in SC1 PvZ.

On August 04 2010 23:43 ShinyGerbil wrote:
on topic: i'm curious when the observer timing is in this build, as it could potentially be important dealing with annoying creep tumours and/or burrowed roaches.

Well as you'll be rushing colossus out with your robo, your observer will be delayed. However, your 3-gate/robo/3-4VR transition should keep you fairly protected against anything. Burrowed roaches could be a problem, but void rays clean them up very nicely so it's not anything to worry about.

On August 05 2010 04:40 rS.Sinatra wrote:
How many voidrays do you pump out?

3 or 4 usually. I stop production in favor of gateway units/colossi as soon as those buildings are done.

On August 05 2010 04:43 GenesisX wrote:
Have you ever heard of baneling busts?

Just sayin.

If you suspect anything odd or you don't see an expo out yet for the zerg player, sneak another probe out to keep scouting. Add a gateway if you have to. But baneling busts are easy to beat with force field so you wouldn't need such a thorough guide - if you survive you've already won.

On August 05 2010 08:44 sYz-Adrenaline wrote:
Not sure if this was said yet but what about adding in a phoenix in the starting harass to pick off lone queens?

By the time a void ray is out at his base, he'll have at least 2 queens with more on the way. If the protoss player dedicates more resources to the harass (especially gas) that won't be useful in later battles, it will be much harder to fight off the hydra push or make it into the mid-game.

On August 06 2010 18:02 GoDannY wrote:
I tried it out in a few games yesterday and I have to admit - I like this build. Once you get a crisp timing it is really solid since voidrays are always good for some damage and also for defense if used properly. Since it gives you also lots of opportunities to scout and / or force your enemy to a certain playstyle.

A few weakpoints to work on I noticed:

- heavy zergling all-in is kinda hard since voidrays charge not well on speedlings. You need enough FF and good micro to survive this properly but once you did you can finish him off easily

- heavy baneling bust on your core throws you off kinda hard - especially on small maps - thicken you wall with some additional buildings will keep you alive until you wreck his base with the void rays

- on LT the build is not very nydus-hydra drop on the cliff proof - once he is save in his base you should keep an eye on overseer aiming for vision on the cliff (use the voidray survivors or go blink)

- get your 3rd early - your colloss die hard to fast ultralisk so you need more gas to compensate the quick tech after expo and get some counters up!

Overall a nice build to pull if and have some variety if you play like a Bo5 ;-)

Thanks for the writeup!

If you suspect a zergling all-in (e.g. more than 6 lings), you will have to scout more and add gates faster. A sentry wouldn't go wrong either after 2 or 3 zealots. The key here is to scouting. If you think it's coming, scout with your first void ray for the drone count. You can always just cancel your expo and hold your ramp, getting a few more gates or going for 2gate-colo then expanding. Won't put you too behind versus this strat.

A baneling bust is very uncharacteristic on a gate/core block, but still very possible. Again, send another probe out. Usually a zerg player going banelings won't expo. If you scout it while building your stargate, just add another 2 gate immediately after and get sentries to buy time. Holding this off pretty much secures you the win.

Nydus-hydra drop: scout your base better I suppose. You'll have enough forces to take it out if he goes this route.

Thanks =) I know that any kind of aggressive play is strong against this strat, so the point is not to dedicate yourself to the opening even after putting your stargate up, and to scout for drone/zergling counts and expo timing.

On August 06 2010 18:05 Doko wrote:
My biggest concern about doing this strat is basically a zerg that simply leaves all his overlords in a safe location and uses lings to scout as much as he can. Once he wants to take his 3rd he just leaves about 5-6 hydras by his 3rd till its up and running. I'm not sure its possible to push at that point to take advantage of it.

Its very very hard to do real damage that will slow him down if he's careful about not loosing overlords and I've basically wasted a lot of gas and minerals on 2 flying glass cannons with no armored targets to shoot till late game when ultras / broodlords show up.

I'm no zerg player so I really don't know exactly how much the lack of information on the map itself affects them but with some good ling control I would imagine its not so bad

I'm not saying the strat is bad by any means. But those are some of the concerns I would have.
Beyond that I really love how much info you can get on the zerg with this and how void rays make people "scared" to leave their base.

No zerg will leave their overlords all in a safe location =P Nevertheless, that won't hurt you too much... I didn't get more than 1 or 2 overlord kills in most of my games playing this strategy. If the zerg player plays passsively, you should be about even or ahead in probe count. That's a good thing, you don't have to take advantage of it, just match his expo with your own.

Real damage isn't necessary

Void rays: deny further expoes, scout the timing of the tech, deny any overlord scouting, shuts down roach/zergling attacks, and force hydras or mutas.

The strat isn't foolproof of course, but the player has to adjust to what they see anyway; I feel it is a very strong build in the hands of a capable player!

On August 06 2010 19:10 forgotten0ne wrote:
May I request a match vs this build?

Antimage.291, msg me when I'm on.

On August 06 2010 23:59 StarBrift wrote:
Ok I¨'ve been playing this build now as standard vs zerg at around 700pts diamond on almost all maps (atleast the ones with an easy nat) and have been quite successful. The big problem I have is when someone tech rushes to hydras and cuts drones and all ins the expo. I can't really sac it cause the colossi tech really needs 4 gas. The other problem I have is when zerg does like 40 zergling attack on the expansion. Sure he lost alot of drones doing that but he can just redrone later since I'm only on one base.

Also I find that counters and drops are really strong due to the all in nature of most players at this stage. I'm thinking about delaying the robo slightly in favor of +1 attack vs the first ling attack. Sure the colossi aggression would come later but it would also be stronger thanks to the +1.

I noticed how +1 could be useful in a game where the zerg went 1 base lair into roach / hydra (with roaches on hatch tech). I got my expo up later (after 3 gate) and did almost no damage with the voidrays but I popped a force for cannons at my nat and also got the +1 weapons. Then he tried to all in me with like 6 hydras 10 roaches and mass ling rally. I don't think I would have taken that without the +1 for my zealots.

I dunno, it might be impossible to adjust the timings with a forge and +1 early but I'm gonna look for ways to do it. Alternatively I could skimp on sentries a bit to get the +1 out and still get colo tech in time.

Tech rushing to hydras, cutting drones is something you have to scout out. Add cannons/sentries before your colo gets there. If it's a 1 base hydra ... well this build isn't recommended against 1 base zerg builds because of exactly that =)

When the zerg masses lings on the expansion, just cancel it, get 2 more gates out then secure it with more forces. You'll delay your expo, but they delay their macro for units that are useless against your colo/gateway ball, whereas your units are still very useful later on.

Colossi aggression would come later, but it's more a necessity to get it out to counter fast hydra attacks off 2 bases.

Sure, try some other transitions and let me know how it works?

On August 07 2010 00:09 xDaunt wrote:
Question for Antimage (or whomever else): Instead of going colossus after expanding, why not go down the templar techpath instead? You can get chargelots pretty quickly keep the pressure on the zerg (as long as he doesn't get too many hydras) and storm isn't very far away.

To fend off a fast hydra break attempt, HT doesn't come out fast enough and chargelots melt without splash damage support (zerglings, hydras, roaches all do pretty well against them).

FragKrag

United States11540 Posts

August 04 2010 03:32 GMT

Nice. I've been struggling with PvZ and my timings for a while now.

Thanks for this

Saracen

United States5139 Posts

August 04 2010 03:32 GMT

lol cute thread

You might want to ask for a [G] tag.

Netherlands12045 Posts

August 04 2010 03:35 GMT

clap clap clap with tears T__T, i used VR in this match up since phase 1 and my PvZ almost nailed since then. Now you post this, we no longer can scream Z is imba anymore.... T__T

Phase 2 was on top 200 NA. VR can also be follow up after 2 gates which is kinda cheesy but super effective. basicly the combination of VR(s) and zealots are super strong vs any combiation of units Z can through out early on rightafter lair finish. maximum number of queen they have is 3 amost 4 when the 1st vr arrive. with decent VR zealot micro, lings + roachs burned under VR and queens die to zealots.

good guide with all the flashy imgaes :D

infinity21

Canada6683 Posts

August 04 2010 03:51 GMT

Don't write a guide for PvT

Antimage

Canada1293 Posts

August 04 2010 03:52 GMT

On August 04 2010 12:51 infinity21 wrote:
Don't write a guide for PvT

PvT is too intricate for me to make a solid build for. More like teach people how to adjust and stuff.

infinity21

Canada6683 Posts

August 04 2010 04:00 GMT

On August 04 2010 12:52 Antimage wrote:

Show nested quote +

PvT is too intricate for me to make a solid build for. More like teach people how to adjust and stuff.

phew... I thought I was a goner for a while there

ShinyGerbil

Canada519 Posts

August 04 2010 04:04 GMT

This needs more attention! really sick guide, I really think people can learn a lot from studying and exploring this build in detail.

Alou

United States3748 Posts

August 04 2010 04:05 GMT

#10

I used to use voidrays a bunch in PvZ glad to see someone else trying them out. I'll give this a try and report back Master Antimage <3

Netherlands12045 Posts

August 04 2010 04:15 GMT

#11

On August 04 2010 13:04 ShinyGerbil wrote:
This needs more attention! really sick guide, I really think people can learn a lot from studying and exploring this build in detail.

dude, you lost to me by this strat =))

On_Slaught

United States12190 Posts

August 04 2010 04:22 GMT

#12

Great detail. I'm just recently switching from terran to protoss and this should be of help.

Powster

United States650 Posts

August 04 2010 04:31 GMT

#13

Will try this tommorow.. havent tried a voidray build vs zerg yet.

MelMelMel

Canada4 Posts

August 04 2010 04:34 GMT

#14

Maybe you should study some strategy? How bout that?

Liquid`Sheth

United States2095 Posts

August 04 2010 04:51 GMT

#15

Mini-Antimages be ware of Mini-Sheth's!

Great guide, keep writing more information!

SONE

Canada839 Posts

August 04 2010 05:05 GMT

#16

Nice one Antimage, will study it further

Khrane

United States127 Posts

August 04 2010 05:38 GMT

#17

I used to do a pretty much exact build to this, except with phoenixes rather than void rays. I think I'll try this out.

BcGladiator

United States58 Posts

August 04 2010 06:01 GMT

#18

I (being in gold league) can usually kill/cripple any zerg with a zealot rush, so I never really get into mid/late game against zerg (zerg also seem to be fairly rare in my skill level, so I receive very little experience with my PvZ). I'm sure that this guide will be extremely helpful once I start facing better and better zerg, as I have not really devised my own mid game strat for pvz.

Wolf

Korea (South)3290 Posts

August 04 2010 06:37 GMT

#19

Great guide ! This is a really nice post. I think what's important here is that people realise you use the VRs to expand, not to win the game. Going to be trying a lot of this stuff in the near future to refine what I already do with VRs already. Thanks for the tips.

teamsolid

Canada3668 Posts

August 04 2010 07:00 GMT

#20

Wouldn't a hydra --> roach --> corruptor --> broodlord strategy counter this pretty nicely?

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