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Orzabal
France287 Posts
I was wondering what was your analyse of your loss vs Slush. My analys is : "omg Slush is a monster killing machine which come from another dimension to wipe us all" hum not pretty helpfull  You didn't do your regular Fast VR Expand vs him. is-it because he fast lair ? You seems less confident vs him, am I right ? You're a great protoss btw. PS : sorry for my bad english. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
Personally I think the strength of voids is it's ability to keep zerg from just expanding like crazy, and something I prefer over phoenixes on larger maps. Voids are also do better vs common zerg late game units of ultra/roach/corruptor. But phoenixes do seem stronger in the mid-game and of course vs mutas. It's going to depend a lot on your oppponent's army comp and the map obviously. | ||
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
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GoDannY
Germany442 Posts
A few weakpoints to work on I noticed: - heavy zergling all-in is kinda hard since voidrays charge not well on speedlings. You need enough FF and good micro to survive this properly but once you did you can finish him off easily - heavy baneling bust on your core throws you off kinda hard - especially on small maps - thicken you wall with some additional buildings will keep you alive until you wreck his base with the void rays - on LT the build is not very nydus-hydra drop on the cliff proof - once he is save in his base you should keep an eye on overseer aiming for vision on the cliff (use the voidray survivors or go blink) - get your 3rd early - your colloss die hard to fast ultralisk so you need more gas to compensate the quick tech after expo and get some counters up! Overall a nice build to pull if and have some variety if you play like a Bo5 ;-) Thanks for the writeup! | ||
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Doko
Argentina1737 Posts
Its very very hard to do real damage that will slow him down if he's careful about not loosing overlords and I've basically wasted a lot of gas and minerals on 2 flying glass cannons with no armored targets to shoot till late game when ultras / broodlords show up. I'm no zerg player so I really don't know exactly how much the lack of information on the map itself affects them but with some good ling control I would imagine its not so bad I'm not saying the strat is bad by any means. But those are some of the concerns I would have. Beyond that I really love how much info you can get on the zerg with this and how void rays make people "scared" to leave their base. | ||
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forgotten0ne
United States951 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136188.jpg) | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
Also I find that counters and drops are really strong due to the all in nature of most players at this stage. I'm thinking about delaying the robo slightly in favor of +1 attack vs the first ling attack. Sure the colossi aggression would come later but it would also be stronger thanks to the +1. I noticed how +1 could be useful in a game where the zerg went 1 base lair into roach / hydra (with roaches on hatch tech). I got my expo up later (after 3 gate) and did almost no damage with the voidrays but I popped a force for cannons at my nat and also got the +1 weapons. Then he tried to all in me with like 6 hydras 10 roaches and mass ling rally. I don't think I would have taken that without the +1 for my zealots. I dunno, it might be impossible to adjust the timings with a forge and +1 early but I'm gonna look for ways to do it. Alternatively I could skimp on sentries a bit to get the +1 out and still get colo tech in time. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
On August 06 2010 18:02 GoDannY wrote: I tried it out in a few games yesterday and I have to admit - I like this build. Once you get a crisp timing it is really solid since voidrays are always good for some damage and also for defense if used properly. Since it gives you also lots of opportunities to scout and / or force your enemy to a certain playstyle. A few weakpoints to work on I noticed: - heavy zergling all-in is kinda hard since voidrays charge not well on speedlings. You need enough FF and good micro to survive this properly but once you did you can finish him off easily - heavy baneling bust on your core throws you off kinda hard - especially on small maps - thicken you wall with some additional buildings will keep you alive until you wreck his base with the void rays - on LT the build is not very nydus-hydra drop on the cliff proof - once he is save in his base you should keep an eye on overseer aiming for vision on the cliff (use the voidray survivors or go blink) - get your 3rd early - your colloss die hard to fast ultralisk so you need more gas to compensate the quick tech after expo and get some counters up! Overall a nice build to pull if and have some variety if you play like a Bo5 ;-) Thanks for the writeup! If you suspect a zergling all-in (e.g. more than 6 lings), you will have to scout more and add gates faster. A sentry wouldn't go wrong either after 2 or 3 zealots. The key here is to scouting. If you think it's coming, scout with your first void ray for the drone count. You can always just cancel your expo and hold your ramp, getting a few more gates or going for 2gate-colo then expanding. Won't put you too behind versus this strat. A baneling bust is very uncharacteristic on a gate/core block, but still very possible. Again, send another probe out. Usually a zerg player going banelings won't expo. If you scout it while building your stargate, just add another 2 gate immediately after and get sentries to buy time. Holding this off pretty much secures you the win. Nydus-hydra drop: scout your base better I suppose. You'll have enough forces to take it out if he goes this route. Thanks =) I know that any kind of aggressive play is strong against this strat, so the point is not to dedicate yourself to the opening even after putting your stargate up, and to scout for drone/zergling counts and expo timing. On August 06 2010 18:05 Doko wrote: My biggest concern about doing this strat is basically a zerg that simply leaves all his overlords in a safe location and uses lings to scout as much as he can. Once he wants to take his 3rd he just leaves about 5-6 hydras by his 3rd till its up and running. I'm not sure its possible to push at that point to take advantage of it. Its very very hard to do real damage that will slow him down if he's careful about not loosing overlords and I've basically wasted a lot of gas and minerals on 2 flying glass cannons with no armored targets to shoot till late game when ultras / broodlords show up. I'm no zerg player so I really don't know exactly how much the lack of information on the map itself affects them but with some good ling control I would imagine its not so bad I'm not saying the strat is bad by any means. But those are some of the concerns I would have. Beyond that I really love how much info you can get on the zerg with this and how void rays make people "scared" to leave their base. No zerg will leave their overlords all in a safe location =P Nevertheless, that won't hurt you too much... I didn't get more than 1 or 2 overlord kills in most of my games playing this strategy. If the zerg player plays passsively, you should be about even or ahead in probe count. That's a good thing, you don't have to take advantage of it, just match his expo with your own. Real damage isn't necessary  Void rays: deny further expoes, scout the timing of the tech, deny any overlord scouting, shuts down roach/zergling attacks, and force hydras or mutas.The strat isn't foolproof of course, but the player has to adjust to what they see anyway; I feel it is a very strong build in the hands of a capable player! On August 06 2010 19:10 forgotten0ne wrote: May I request a match vs this build? Antimage.291, msg me when I'm on. On August 06 2010 23:59 StarBrift wrote: Ok I¨'ve been playing this build now as standard vs zerg at around 700pts diamond on almost all maps (atleast the ones with an easy nat) and have been quite successful. The big problem I have is when someone tech rushes to hydras and cuts drones and all ins the expo. I can't really sac it cause the colossi tech really needs 4 gas. The other problem I have is when zerg does like 40 zergling attack on the expansion. Sure he lost alot of drones doing that but he can just redrone later since I'm only on one base. Also I find that counters and drops are really strong due to the all in nature of most players at this stage. I'm thinking about delaying the robo slightly in favor of +1 attack vs the first ling attack. Sure the colossi aggression would come later but it would also be stronger thanks to the +1. I noticed how +1 could be useful in a game where the zerg went 1 base lair into roach / hydra (with roaches on hatch tech). I got my expo up later (after 3 gate) and did almost no damage with the voidrays but I popped a force for cannons at my nat and also got the +1 weapons. Then he tried to all in me with like 6 hydras 10 roaches and mass ling rally. I don't think I would have taken that without the +1 for my zealots. I dunno, it might be impossible to adjust the timings with a forge and +1 early but I'm gonna look for ways to do it. Alternatively I could skimp on sentries a bit to get the +1 out and still get colo tech in time. Tech rushing to hydras, cutting drones is something you have to scout out. Add cannons/sentries before your colo gets there. If it's a 1 base hydra ... well this build isn't recommended against 1 base zerg builds because of exactly that =) When the zerg masses lings on the expansion, just cancel it, get 2 more gates out then secure it with more forces. You'll delay your expo, but they delay their macro for units that are useless against your colo/gateway ball, whereas your units are still very useful later on. Colossi aggression would come later, but it's more a necessity to get it out to counter fast hydra attacks off 2 bases. Sure, try some other transitions and let me know how it works? On August 07 2010 00:09 xDaunt wrote: Question for Antimage (or whomever else): Instead of going colossus after expanding, why not go down the templar techpath instead? You can get chargelots pretty quickly keep the pressure on the zerg (as long as he doesn't get too many hydras) and storm isn't very far away. To fend off a fast hydra break attempt, HT doesn't come out fast enough and chargelots melt without splash damage support (zerglings, hydras, roaches all do pretty well against them). | ||
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AmaZing
Nepal299 Posts
i wasn't planning to go robo but if he was better i think i would have been destroyed by burrowed roaches and hydra push. so def gonna try void rays into fast expo and collosi. | ||
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forgotten0ne
United States951 Posts
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Loophole
United States867 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/Loophole/WinningStreak.gif) | ||
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TrogdorBurninate
United States104 Posts
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Ftrunkz
Australia2474 Posts
Would definitely be a useful alternative to switch it up, especially on maps where the nat is crazy-wide open (which blizz seems to love on their maps for some reason...) | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
On August 08 2010 06:57 forgotten0ne wrote: As I showed Antimage today in a few pickup games, there is a good not really out of the way counter to this. *hint* Just think about your gas managenent Zergs and you can stop this fairly easily. Er, why not just make the relevant post. | ||
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forgotten0ne
United States951 Posts
Because in the early stages of any game, there's a huge advtange to having builds that aren't mainstream, or leaked. The more people start responding a certain way, the more likely you get to come up with something new. I just like to let Zergs know when they read these "powerful builds" against them, sticking to Zerg isn't a lost cause. | ||
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
I gotta give this thread major props though as this build has taken my PvZ to another level. It's great because it lets me learn timings of aggression and weakness within the zerg build that I have use of even when doing other builds. For reference I was about 600 pts a few days ago on EU ladder and rank 5 in my division (not a very noteworthy one). After I started using this build and altered my PvT builds a bit I rose to 800 points being ranked #12 on the EU server overall and #4 for protoss players. My PvZ win ratio skyrocketed and I basically only lost if I faced someone like dimaga / haypro (or other known names) or if I fail to retain my voidrays somehow. It's kinda ironic how angry some kids get when I use this build. They start screaming about all in or whatnot. But this build is the very definition of stable play. It has long term transitions that aim to get you into lategame rather than win early. | ||
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Endorsed
Netherlands1221 Posts
With zerg players like Sheth, SLush, and Idra leading the way, the imbalance in PvZ has begun to stand out.e Lmao, stopped reading User was warned for this post | ||
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