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Haha sorry for the late update =)
My computer has been acting up lately and I haven't been able to really do anything I want ...
This strategy works best against pool-hatch-gas or hatch-pool-gas builds, as early zergling speed really hurts this strategy. However, it is not infallible, even against the builds it is designed to work well against if you don't follow up correctly.
I think of this opening as one of many others in my PvZ strategies versus a 2-base zerg.
Some adjustments-
If you see a fast lair and no ling speed (first 100 gas going into the lair upgrade), you can be sure that he's fast teching to hydras to bring down your expansion. In this case, cut probes more (you'll be even on bases so don't be afraid of doing this), get a forge out, and get 2 or 3 cannons to defend against it, and chrono out that colossus out while using your 3 or 4 warpgates as much as possible. I believe that once you have your robo/gateways building after your nexus, you can continue to pump probes.
If he expands again, you can get more gates out, pump more units and more colossi from your one robo, and use a timing push to clean him up.
Yes, the oversky build beats this build pretty handedly =( Just think of this as another tool in addition to 2 gate expand, gate/forge expand, and 3 gate openings!
I've been busy with school and other things - I'm going on vacation in a few days so don't expect a very detailed update ^^
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On August 13 2010 11:01 zomgzergrush wrote:
Strictly looking at your build order and choke placement, I guarantee the oversky build will kill you before VR come out.
13p, 15g, 100g speed + 2nd hatch
linglinglingling ~36 -> attack your front door. There's no way in hell you will ever have enough to defend or stall long enough to the flood of zerglings with this fast of tech.
Without fail, I immediately go for this oversky ling rush build on the Z side whenever I see a 1 gate core build. I have never lost a game in any configuration (including full building walloffs) when P try to rush VR this fast.
At the very best you get 1 VR out that can pick fruitlessly at the mass of lings in your base or go directly to the Z base who has 2 queens waiting for you.
2 gate pressure is a MUCH better approach to take for faster P expos.
I suggest you dont dismiss the build until you've actually tried it. I'ev held of mass mass mass ling multiple times by just spamming chrono boost on my gate and making zealots. Unless he forgoes killing my probe in his main then there is no chance of his getting to my base before 2 zealots. If he indeed goes straight for the main just send like 4 probes to block the wall with your 1 zealot and then keep making zealots. Also adding a second gate faster and pressuring him into more lings is good if you intend on making a voidray still. Obviously you adjust your build when you see early pool and that he saves up larvae.
Actually this build works well even with a White_ra style second pylon before gas. That build is alot more flexible vs early pressure as you start your first zealot before core. Notice that you don't need to get the voidray as fast when he goes early pool if you can force him into making lings.
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Anyone else have any luck with this build? It seems like every Zerg I play (~700 Diamond) builds 4-5 queens. When that doesn't happen, this build works great, since you can be an asshole and pick off so many random things.
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So from watching your replays, I gather that this build works on the premise that the zerg must make queens/hydras to defend. Since he's focusing on defending, his macro slips as well as next to none zergling production. This allows the expansion. Since you continue with your harass with your voids, the zerg has to go either hydras or mutas. Basically, this build assumes the zerg will go hydras as you always get your robo and bay as soon as you get your expansion up.
Imo, it's still kind of shaky late mid game as you move into colossus because those hydras can kill you too easily. Also, even though zerglings are obviously bad against void rays, if he massed up enough zerglings, he could kill your expansion while going hydras for a slightly later game push with hydra/ling.
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On August 20 2010 02:20 0mar wrote:
Anyone else have any luck with this build? It seems like every Zerg I play (~700 Diamond) builds 4-5 queens. When that doesn't happen, this build works great, since you can be an asshole and pick off so many random things.
I succesfully attempted this even though the zerg had hydra's and several queens (he teched before expo).
I still managed to harass him and pick a few overlords and deny 3 expansions when he saw my expansion.
It's really great if u can't kill any overlord or anything else at his main base.
You just put each VR at an expo and deny when he expands while u expand urself.
I won the game eventually and I have to say thank you to antimage.
I have tried this build a few times (note:4 times before) but now I got the timing down (I think).
Harassment works and if the zerg fails and has 1 queen I end the game right there or I pick a few overlords making him supply blocked and not have a queen for atleast queen production time + supply block time.
The build is great and I hope u can explain more succesfull builds @Antimage.
I love the macro game as Protoss now :D and hope u have more builds like these.
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Thumbs up to you sir!
I've just played a pretty even game against rank 1 diamond zerg after reading this (I'm high plat only). He opened with 1 base roaches and VR popped out just in time to save my base. I managed to snipe his roach warren soon after that. He obviously then made more queens and went for hydras while I teched up to colossi. I only lost due to not scouting his spire in the late game and having too many zealots in my army, but I did have a clear macro advantage at some point (which I didn't use though).
I used to play in pretty similar way, but opened with phoenixes instead of VRs, which were not quite as effective. Do you think adding DTs to the build at some point would be helpful to prevent zerg from mass expanding?
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I am wondering: how does this build fare with the recent decrease to the damage output of a charged Void Ray (from 10+15 vs armor to 8+8 vs armor)?
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On October 20 2010 21:32 Malderon wrote:
I am wondering: how does this build fare with the recent decrease to the damage output of a charged Void Ray (from 10+15 vs armor to 8+8 vs armor)?
It still does fine. The point of the void ray is to have the defensive superiority because lings and roaches can't hit void rays. It forces either hydras or more queens. Afterward, you can respond accordingly.
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Unfortunately, my experience is that Zergs are learning how to deal with this build without reacting at all. It no longer forces hydras or more queens (they will build a 3rd or eventually a 4th queen, but they won't cut drones to do it) or even a fast lair, and I never see spore colonies anymore.
I always felt that the strongest reaction to this build was in fact to go mass mutalisk, and that is even stronger than ever with the last patch. You can make him commit to the stargates, then tech switch to hydras when YOU are ready. But zergs also have access to new timing pushes with roaches against this build that they are taking advantage of.
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Any replays of using this after the roach buff? I'm really lookin for a new non-robo opening build to get an early expo up.
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The thing I don't get about this build is how forcing mutas is a good thing -_-
If you don't get pheonixes and go straight for collosi mutas will just pwn your face in. And as others have said, every zerg nowadays gets at least 4 queens. Coupled with the fact that any lair tech choice zerg decides to utilise counters void rays, VR harass is practically worthless.
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On November 09 2010 07:00 Geovu wrote:
The thing I don't get about this build is how forcing mutas is a good thing -_-
Forcing mutas is a awsome if you already have a stargate up - few people seem to get this, but phoenixes BEAT mutas in straight up battles cost-effectively.
You can frickin a-move equal cost phoenixes into mutas and win.
The only problem is, that IF mutas are flying around in your base and you don't have a stargate up, it's already too late, they will get an absurd number of mutas before you can get anything remotely able to beat this out of your stargates.
Nevertheless this build should allow you to scout the spire very early and deny the mutas with pre-built phoenixes from the beginning. Today no sane zerg will do this though, everybody will go with fast hydras. Which again isn't too bad if you scout it in time and prepare.
This being said I never really liked the build, was too gimmicky for me....so take my comments with a grain of salt. Not that this would be any sort of "serious" critique, I just prefer 15 nexus into mass-gates or two gate stalker into expo into whatever more.
EDIT: just did a quick unit-test since many seem to not know this: 6 phoenixes (900/600) vs 8 mutas (800/800), a-moved into one another --> 4 phoenixes live afterwards.
8 phoenixes (1200/800) vs 11 mutas (1100/1100), a-moved into one another --> 4-5 phoenixes live
and just for the sake of the argument:
20 phoenixes (3000/2000) vs 25 mutas (2500/2500), a-moved into one another
--> the absurd number of 11 phoenixes survives
Really, if you got a stargate and scout a spire, you can consider yourself lucky.
Mutas eat up gas like roflwhat, and the funny thing is, if you are in the phoenix vs muta-battle, that can be won very cost-effectively, you are in the rare position to DENY zergs their mass-expand.
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I love phoenix play and actually like it when zerg go muta, I just can't stand the roach play lately which has made my normal 15Nex play pretty much obsolete at 1400-1600zergs I keep running into. If I can reverse that and get the void first then FE I would be fine with that, just looking for a good build to transition out of 15Nex.
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Yeah forcing mutas was awesome. The only problem is the tech switch. It's easy to force him to go mutas, but it's not actually easy to make him KEEP going mutas. What you see is, he builds 6-14 muta, takes out your void rays (being slow and easy to snipe and doing even less damage now), and then pumps corrupters. Now you're in real trouble, because you can't go phoenix against corruptor, you can't go collosus, you better go gateway + templar + forge upgrades. It's difficult to scout him now because he's got an infestor or two with fungal growth, corruptors, and overseers. And then he builds Hydralisk into mass muta or Broodlords and tries to snipe your templar with any surviving muta. So now you need those void rays again, and phoenix, maybe with a side of carriers (if you've been able to trade armies).
It was a very tense and even matchup, requiring lots of scouting and micro. Now it is pretty favored for Zerg.
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I've been doing this build without VRs usually as my standard build (cause I think the VR style is too weak against muta), just going phoenix right off the bat in place of the VR unless I scout some sort of roach aggression (then I get a VR or two for defense) or anything else funky that requires the VR's muscle, and using very similar timings.
I've been winning at my level (like avg low mid diamond 1400 or so) almost every time I use it but I don't know if it's actually good against good players. Anyone have any input? Mass ling aggression is one of my worries, also a mass hydra bust but no one I play responds very efficiently.
I really like it with phoenix because you get almost perfect scouting, they sometimes deny mutas altogether allowing good colossus opportunity, and often my phoenixes (I usually build maybe 6-8 if they aren't going heavy muta) still are around late game for expansion scouting and map control.
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Ive been doing a similar build pvz, with the same thought process (using vr to force hydra, clean up with colossus).
I was thinking if they try to go spire tech just add on another stargate and go phoenix. Feasable?
Edit: I read the later pages and found the answer, sry i hadn't read thru all the pages.
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Thanks for the guide, I have been needing a better plan vs Zerg!
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Just got into Platinum after placement matches and tried this:
PvZ on DQ - worked very well considering he went very FE. Targeted queens, then the hatch at his natural. After I killed a few OL's he rage quit. 
Nice strat, nice to have another strat other than 4 warpgatee timing which was my goto PvZ strat.
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Sorry for bumping this thread, but is this build still up-to-date? Or is there new FE stargate PvZ build?
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I need to try this, my PvZ is literally gold level. While I can beat master terrans and protoss. Starting to be glad I quit zerg xD
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EPT
