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PvZ - Antimage's Void Ray Expo Build
Disclaimer:
This guide is not 100% complete. I rushed it out but I will continue to address concerns and mid/late game transitions if they are unclear later on, but a lot of people wanted to see it so here it goes...
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With zerg players like Sheth, SLush, and Idra leading the way, the imbalance in PvZ has begun to stand out. Surprise 6 gate into 2 robo colossi builds put you too behind economically to be effective against anyone competent. 2 gate or 3 gate robo gives up map control and against a good flanking zerg army, you stand no chance.
Playing any of those above builds straight up against a top notch zerg will put him too ahead in army count in worker count, and this build is to balance it out (and give Protoss an edge).
The difference between this and any comparatively ineffective 2 gate robo or 3 gate expand builds (which I adopted back in beta), is that you force hydras because roaches melt under 2-4 void rays. Thus, your colossi will be doubly effective, your expo is out faster so you have 4 geysers to tech switch if you find it necessary.
Side note:
I call this my Void Ray Expo build, but it’s also kind of a 1-1-1, but you’ll have to adjust your transitions to what you see. You can always get your robo before your second and third gates if you see zerg playing standard macro style, but that’s not a guarantee.
Begin: Antimage's Void Ray Expo Build
This build is designed to put you on even footing against a fast expanding zerg player.
Just like Sheth intends to make mini-Sheths with his infamous ZvP thread, so I will make mini-Antimages to combat those mini-Sheths.
Details:
Step 1: Choose protoss. Hate on opponent for choosing imba zerg. Nah I kid.
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1 gate-core opening, blocking ramp with gate and core. You'll need two units to fully block it, but it is infinitely safer than blocking with pylons (banelings anyone?), if anyone still does that.
Get your second gas as soon as you can, at around when your core is about 200 HP up. If you don't scout a fast expo and see 2 gases or anything strange (roach warren, etc, baneling nest), then this build is probably not the best one to go for.
Usually, you should be able to put your second gas up before starting your zealot (which may or may not even need a chrono depending on how many lings initially pop out). This build is designed to counter Idra type play - which means whoring drones like the dirty zergs they are.
A basic rule of thumb in PvZ: against a regular zerg macro build, you can afford to make your core and then your first zealot, without even chrono'ing it. It'll be out in time, and you can chrono a second zealot (or stalker if you have time to block with it) if they went gas/pool/hatch in which case there's a threat of mass speedlings, so your block has to hold.
![[image loading]](http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3996/32539021.png)
Got your gas stolen? Don’t worry about it, just kill it and get your stargate anyway. You will need to add 1 or 2 gates before your robo since you won’t have enough gas to sustain it after your first few void rays.
Once your core is done and you have a stalker building (to try to deny scouting/complete your wall), begin your stargate off two gases. Doesn't matter if the zerg sees it with an overlord. The point here is to force more queens off the two zerg bases.
![[image loading]](http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6155/16083862.png)
He sees it coming!
![[image loading]](http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5567/47881880.png)
Doesn’t matter if you know it’s coming bro. =)
Once your first void ray is out (chrono'ed - you don't need to chrono warp gate tech), send it to the zerg base and rally your stargate to that unit.
![[image loading]](http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/4688/93825613.png)
This opening forces spores if they drone too much. Further delaying their tech. Also note that here that SLush is in the red supply.
At the same time, move out with your 3-4 zealots and 1 stalker and claim your natural. Expand with your next 400, all the while continuing to pump void rays non-stop. With your void rays, try to inflict as much damage as possible. Snipe off overlords, extractors, whatever you can lay your dirty protoss hands on. I prefer to go for the overlords - they go down faster and delay the hydra counter effectively with a smaller risk of dying to queens.
![[image loading]](http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/241/51341263.png)
In this case, when they mass more lings, you want to add more gates before your colossus to defend your expo. Your void rays should see the lings.
Your next tech choice depends on what you see with your void rays. If there are signs that they teched faster to lair than normally, make 2 more gates and a robo, cutting probes if you're worried. Once you robotics facility finishes, get your support bay and chrono out colossi ASAP. If however you spot or suspect mutas (both natural geysers are taken), add on 2 more gateways and go heavier on stalkers/sentries, while getting +1 – cut some probes to get up to 5-6 gates so you can further outmuscle the fragile muta army. From here on out, it's a regular macro game.
![[image loading]](http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/2199/78756460.png)
Information received! If you’re colo is late, add a forge and a few more gates immediately!
![[image loading]](http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9162/19144712.png)
Defending that initial push once they feel they have enough hydras. If you feel you can’t defend adequately, get a forge up with your gates/robo and cannon up a little.
The zerg player may choose to expo again. However, your void rays should take care of that. Note the minimap, how all close bases are scouted with the void rays.
![[image loading]](http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6678/50574603.png)
Deny more expos with your void rays. It’ll be 2 base against 2 base on a map like metal.
![[image loading]](http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/4800/56075232.png)
Another expo deny. Note the huge differential in worker count.
Once your colossi numbers start building up, up your gateway count. You’ll need it for late game if the game draws out. Start with stalker/sentry to deal with anything that isn’t ultras.
![[image loading]](http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/293/47608504.png)
Ahh, the beauty of the void ray/colossus/stalker/sentry ball. Force field makes it impossible for a ground army to be able to position well at the same time the air units hit. They won’t get good army positioning against you.
![[image loading]](http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8122/91058543.png)
Yes, it beats a maxed out army if the zerg players decides to go mutas. Just sit tight, and float around the middle so their mutas can’t roam free without the threat of a backstab into their base.
End game:
![[image loading]](http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7772/72052211.png)
Looks a bit barren, doesn’t it? This is what happens when zerg tries to tech to ultras. They can’t defend their 3rd expo in time once you have 3 or 4 colossi out.
![[image loading]](http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/3743/79521202.png)
Ultras may work pretty well against this strategy but once you already have a huge econ advantage and many gates, you can switch it up and go heavier on zealots and high temp.
Weaknesses:
Timing pushes with fast hydras will really push your defenses. If you suspect this coming, you might even want to consider sentries/cannons to buy yourself some time.
Mutas will keep you in your base longer as your ground army is weaker, but once you add more gates, you'll be able to abuse sentry/stalker/guardian shield/ground upgrades and you'll be ahead again in no time.
Mass ling is also a great threat if you do not scout it properly. If you see mass ling coming, prepare acordingly with heavy zealots. Once your colossus is out, with good enough force fields, you're gold.
Worker counts:
![[image loading]](http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7974/40223503.png)
Vs machine, after the hydra counter is repelled (up 2)
![[image loading]](http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/3854/25000720.png)
Vs masterasia, after the hydra counter is repelled (up 8)
![[image loading]](http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/4641/62037326.png)
Huge worker count differential when opponent fails to do damage with mass speedlings (up 13)
![[image loading]](http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/9307/85112255.png)
Large worker differential while zerg tries (but fails to) put up a third after failing the hydra push (up 13)
Author’s note:
My laptop died so I can't really play SC2 anymore; it starts up properly maybe 10% of the time - I'll be playing on a friend's laptop in the meanwhile. Please see my blog for more details and how you can help!
Click here!
Replays here
[url blocked]
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Second post reserved for Q&A, user testimonials, etc.
On August 04 2010 16:00 teamsolid wrote:
Wouldn't a hydra --> roach --> corruptor --> broodlord strategy counter this pretty nicely?
Your colossi melt hydras, your void rays with colossi/stalkers do pretty well against roaches. You'll be ready for the transition to roaches and corruptors very well. You're not dedicating yourself too much to colossi or void rays, just 3-5 of each and you're going with gateway units for the bulk of your army.
On August 04 2010 17:16 Ordained wrote:
I haven't checked out the replays yet, but are there any of you losing or showing how a Zerg can fight this? This build looks wonderful by the way, I am definitely trying it out when I offrace.
Strifeco beat me when I was still fine-tuning the strategy. He immediately went for fast hydras, cut drones to do so and arrived at my door with way too many for me to handle. The protoss player will have to peek at drone counts and other signs to be able to see it coming. It can be defended though, with 2-3 cannons and gates if your colossus does not come out on time.
On August 04 2010 18:52 Alpina wrote:
Haven't faced this strat but looks like hydra/roach army with corruptors would counter that.
You are forcing hydras by void rays, so that you can counter them with colossi, for which your opponent will either get roaches or corruptors. In the meanwhile, a key point is that you get your expo running faster than with other strategies, and will be able to keep up with any tech switches (e.g. with HT tech or additional gates, etc)
On August 04 2010 19:55 Whole wrote:
Do you think you could make 3 early Phoenixes instead of 2 Void Rays if you deny scouting? Eventually switching to Void Ray later on. I was going to try some Stargate openings today, and I was favoring Phoenix over Void Ray against Zerg.
Edit: How early do you start saving Chronoboost? When the Cyber Core finishes or what?
Phoenixes won't be able to fend off early pushes. I also start saving chronoboost after my nexus starts building (which is about when warpgate tech finishes anyway). I like to have 100/100 to get my first colossus out asap, which makes a huge difference in the initial zerg push (if it comes).
On August 04 2010 20:30 Plexa wrote:
You build a lot of VRs every game, yet never research speed. Have you considered it? Speed allows them to outrun hydras and their harass potential skyrockets.
Void rays are used as a transition. Since they were nerfed to 6 range, they just don't do well at all against hydralisks, so I wouldn't bother continuing to build them or invest further in it. I suppose if my opponent goes heavy roaches (but really, who does that against air?), I'll get more void rays but VR speed is too much of an investment of gas I'd rather spend on other tech.
On August 04 2010 23:14 FreeZEternal wrote:
I've been adding void rays in my play vs zerg. The thing is if you screw up with your first VR and die to Queens it's like GG 80% -.-;;
On August 04 2010 23:28 ensign_lee wrote:
How do you deal with just mass queens eating up your void rays?
That's fine. You should react fast to not lose your first VR, but if you do, it's used as a transition to secure your expo anyway. You don't *need* to do damage with your void rays, you just want to secure your expo by using them offensively, like using corsairs in SC1 PvZ.
On August 04 2010 23:43 ShinyGerbil wrote:
on topic: i'm curious when the observer timing is in this build, as it could potentially be important dealing with annoying creep tumours and/or burrowed roaches.
Well as you'll be rushing colossus out with your robo, your observer will be delayed. However, your 3-gate/robo/3-4VR transition should keep you fairly protected against anything. Burrowed roaches could be a problem, but void rays clean them up very nicely so it's not anything to worry about.
On August 05 2010 04:40 rS.Sinatra wrote:
How many voidrays do you pump out?
3 or 4 usually. I stop production in favor of gateway units/colossi as soon as those buildings are done.
On August 05 2010 04:43 GenesisX wrote:Have you ever heard of baneling busts?  Just sayin.
If you suspect anything odd or you don't see an expo out yet for the zerg player, sneak another probe out to keep scouting. Add a gateway if you have to. But baneling busts are easy to beat with force field so you wouldn't need such a thorough guide - if you survive you've already won.
On August 05 2010 08:44 sYz-Adrenaline wrote:
Not sure if this was said yet but what about adding in a phoenix in the starting harass to pick off lone queens?
By the time a void ray is out at his base, he'll have at least 2 queens with more on the way. If the protoss player dedicates more resources to the harass (especially gas) that won't be useful in later battles, it will be much harder to fight off the hydra push or make it into the mid-game.
On August 06 2010 18:02 GoDannY wrote:
I tried it out in a few games yesterday and I have to admit - I like this build. Once you get a crisp timing it is really solid since voidrays are always good for some damage and also for defense if used properly. Since it gives you also lots of opportunities to scout and / or force your enemy to a certain playstyle.
A few weakpoints to work on I noticed:
- heavy zergling all-in is kinda hard since voidrays charge not well on speedlings. You need enough FF and good micro to survive this properly but once you did you can finish him off easily
- heavy baneling bust on your core throws you off kinda hard - especially on small maps - thicken you wall with some additional buildings will keep you alive until you wreck his base with the void rays
- on LT the build is not very nydus-hydra drop on the cliff proof - once he is save in his base you should keep an eye on overseer aiming for vision on the cliff (use the voidray survivors or go blink)
- get your 3rd early - your colloss die hard to fast ultralisk so you need more gas to compensate the quick tech after expo and get some counters up!
Overall a nice build to pull if and have some variety if you play like a Bo5 ;-)
Thanks for the writeup!
If you suspect a zergling all-in (e.g. more than 6 lings), you will have to scout more and add gates faster. A sentry wouldn't go wrong either after 2 or 3 zealots. The key here is to scouting. If you think it's coming, scout with your first void ray for the drone count. You can always just cancel your expo and hold your ramp, getting a few more gates or going for 2gate-colo then expanding. Won't put you too behind versus this strat.
A baneling bust is very uncharacteristic on a gate/core block, but still very possible. Again, send another probe out. Usually a zerg player going banelings won't expo. If you scout it while building your stargate, just add another 2 gate immediately after and get sentries to buy time. Holding this off pretty much secures you the win.
Nydus-hydra drop: scout your base better I suppose. You'll have enough forces to take it out if he goes this route.
Thanks =) I know that any kind of aggressive play is strong against this strat, so the point is not to dedicate yourself to the opening even after putting your stargate up, and to scout for drone/zergling counts and expo timing.
On August 06 2010 18:05 Doko wrote:
My biggest concern about doing this strat is basically a zerg that simply leaves all his overlords in a safe location and uses lings to scout as much as he can. Once he wants to take his 3rd he just leaves about 5-6 hydras by his 3rd till its up and running. I'm not sure its possible to push at that point to take advantage of it.
Its very very hard to do real damage that will slow him down if he's careful about not loosing overlords and I've basically wasted a lot of gas and minerals on 2 flying glass cannons with no armored targets to shoot till late game when ultras / broodlords show up.
I'm no zerg player so I really don't know exactly how much the lack of information on the map itself affects them but with some good ling control I would imagine its not so bad
I'm not saying the strat is bad by any means. But those are some of the concerns I would have.
Beyond that I really love how much info you can get on the zerg with this and how void rays make people "scared" to leave their base.
No zerg will leave their overlords all in a safe location =P Nevertheless, that won't hurt you too much... I didn't get more than 1 or 2 overlord kills in most of my games playing this strategy. If the zerg player plays passsively, you should be about even or ahead in probe count. That's a good thing, you don't have to take advantage of it, just match his expo with your own.
Real damage isn't necessary  Void rays: deny further expoes, scout the timing of the tech, deny any overlord scouting, shuts down roach/zergling attacks, and force hydras or mutas.
The strat isn't foolproof of course, but the player has to adjust to what they see anyway; I feel it is a very strong build in the hands of a capable player!
On August 06 2010 19:10 forgotten0ne wrote:
May I request a match vs this build?
Antimage.291, msg me when I'm on.
On August 06 2010 23:59 StarBrift wrote:
Ok I¨'ve been playing this build now as standard vs zerg at around 700pts diamond on almost all maps (atleast the ones with an easy nat) and have been quite successful. The big problem I have is when someone tech rushes to hydras and cuts drones and all ins the expo. I can't really sac it cause the colossi tech really needs 4 gas. The other problem I have is when zerg does like 40 zergling attack on the expansion. Sure he lost alot of drones doing that but he can just redrone later since I'm only on one base.
Also I find that counters and drops are really strong due to the all in nature of most players at this stage. I'm thinking about delaying the robo slightly in favor of +1 attack vs the first ling attack. Sure the colossi aggression would come later but it would also be stronger thanks to the +1.
I noticed how +1 could be useful in a game where the zerg went 1 base lair into roach / hydra (with roaches on hatch tech). I got my expo up later (after 3 gate) and did almost no damage with the voidrays but I popped a force for cannons at my nat and also got the +1 weapons. Then he tried to all in me with like 6 hydras 10 roaches and mass ling rally. I don't think I would have taken that without the +1 for my zealots.
I dunno, it might be impossible to adjust the timings with a forge and +1 early but I'm gonna look for ways to do it. Alternatively I could skimp on sentries a bit to get the +1 out and still get colo tech in time.
Tech rushing to hydras, cutting drones is something you have to scout out. Add cannons/sentries before your colo gets there. If it's a 1 base hydra ... well this build isn't recommended against 1 base zerg builds because of exactly that =)
When the zerg masses lings on the expansion, just cancel it, get 2 more gates out then secure it with more forces. You'll delay your expo, but they delay their macro for units that are useless against your colo/gateway ball, whereas your units are still very useful later on.
Colossi aggression would come later, but it's more a necessity to get it out to counter fast hydra attacks off 2 bases.
Sure, try some other transitions and let me know how it works?
On August 07 2010 00:09 xDaunt wrote:
Question for Antimage (or whomever else): Instead of going colossus after expanding, why not go down the templar techpath instead? You can get chargelots pretty quickly keep the pressure on the zerg (as long as he doesn't get too many hydras) and storm isn't very far away.
To fend off a fast hydra break attempt, HT doesn't come out fast enough and chargelots melt without splash damage support (zerglings, hydras, roaches all do pretty well against them).
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Nice. I've been struggling with PvZ and my timings for a while now.
Thanks for this  <3
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lol cute thread
You might want to ask for a [G] tag.
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clap clap clap with tears T__T, i used VR in this match up since phase 1 and my PvZ almost nailed since then. Now you post this, we no longer can scream Z is imba anymore.... T__T
Phase 2 was on top 200 NA. VR can also be follow up after 2 gates which is kinda cheesy but super effective. basicly the combination of VR(s) and zealots are super strong vs any combiation of units Z can through out early on rightafter lair finish. maximum number of queen they have is 3 amost 4 when the 1st vr arrive. with decent VR zealot micro, lings + roachs burned under VR and queens die to zealots.
good guide with all the flashy imgaes :D
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Don't write a guide for PvT 
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On August 04 2010 12:51 infinity21 wrote:Don't write a guide for PvT
PvT is too intricate for me to make a solid build for. More like teach people how to adjust and stuff.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On August 04 2010 12:52 Antimage wrote:PvT is too intricate for me to make a solid build for. More like teach people how to adjust and stuff.
phew... I thought I was a goner for a while there
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This needs more attention! really sick guide, I really think people can learn a lot from studying and exploring this build in detail.
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I used to use voidrays a bunch in PvZ glad to see someone else trying them out. I'll give this a try and report back Master Antimage <3
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On August 04 2010 13:04 ShinyGerbil wrote:
This needs more attention! really sick guide, I really think people can learn a lot from studying and exploring this build in detail.
dude, you lost to me by this strat =))
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Great detail. I'm just recently switching from terran to protoss and this should be of help.
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Will try this tommorow.. havent tried a voidray build vs zerg yet.
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Maybe you should study some strategy? How bout that?
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United States2095 Posts
Mini-Antimages be ware of Mini-Sheth's!
Great guide, keep writing more information!
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Nice one Antimage, will study it further
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I used to do a pretty much exact build to this, except with phoenixes rather than void rays. I think I'll try this out.
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I (being in gold league) can usually kill/cripple any zerg with a zealot rush, so I never really get into mid/late game against zerg (zerg also seem to be fairly rare in my skill level, so I receive very little experience with my PvZ). I'm sure that this guide will be extremely helpful once I start facing better and better zerg, as I have not really devised my own mid game strat for pvz.
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Great guide ! This is a really nice post. I think what's important here is that people realise you use the VRs to expand, not to win the game. Going to be trying a lot of this stuff in the near future to refine what I already do with VRs already. Thanks for the tips.
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Wouldn't a hydra --> roach --> corruptor --> broodlord strategy counter this pretty nicely?
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United States7166 Posts
yeah dare you to just try this on me on ladder lolol
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On August 04 2010 16:00 teamsolid wrote:
Wouldn't a hydra --> roach --> corruptor --> broodlord strategy counter this pretty nicely?
Your colossi melt hydras, your void rays with colossi/stalkers do pretty well against roaches. You'll be ready for the transition to roaches and corruptors very well. You're not dedicating yourself too much to colossi or void rays, just 3-5 of each and you're going with gateway units for the bulk of your army.
And Zelniq, msg me next time you see me on and we'll try it out
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that mini-sheth bit made me lulz
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Interesting build, I've always tried Void Ray/Colossus lategame after I've had to get Phoenixes to counter Mutas, but the idea of getting them early and integrating them in to the composition seems really powerful. Definitely going to try this out.
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I haven't checked out the replays yet, but are there any of you losing or showing how a Zerg can fight this? This build looks wonderful by the way, I am definitely trying it out when I offrace.
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I love how you have games against zerg players with such high caliber such as machine, slush, and master asia. it boosts your credibility extremely. I'm gonna go ahead and copy this build =)
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3791 Posts
Haven't faced this strat but looks like hydra/roach army with corruptors would counter that.
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Do you think you could make 3 early Phoenixes instead of 2 Void Rays if you deny scouting? Eventually switching to Void Ray later on. I was going to try some Stargate openings today, and I was favoring Phoenix over Void Ray against Zerg.
Edit: How early do you start saving Chronoboost? When the Cyber Core finishes or what?
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watched the replay against machine and i must say you really did a great job of dominating him.
i really like your build against z and i will try it out. thx for your sharing!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Thank you very much sir, another build to add to the arsenal :p
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Out of curiosity, why do you prefer void rays over phoenixes to open? Both force a hydralisk midgame, but void rays still allow them to get mutas while having a decent phoenix mass (6-7) absolutely shuts down that option. Phoenixes also help a ton more in fending off the initial hydra push since 5 phoenixes one-round a hydralisk, so if you have 7 of them hydras die just about as fast as you can g-click them.
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On August 04 2010 21:45 Shifft wrote:
Out of curiosity, why do you prefer void rays over phoenixes to open? Both force a hydralisk midgame, but void rays still allow them to get mutas while having a decent phoenix mass (6-7) absolutely shuts down that option. Phoenixes also help a ton more in fending off the initial hydra push since 5 phoenixes one-round a hydralisk, so if you have 7 of them hydras die just about as fast as you can g-click them.
if u go phoenixes how r u going to defend against roaches or zerglings.... early game.
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with "a lot" of VRs, i would like to skip wrap and get +1 air fast =)... more pimp to play it that way =))
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On August 04 2010 18:52 Alpina wrote:
Haven't faced this strat but looks like hydra/roach army with corruptors would counter that.
Hydra/corruptor does indeed work against stalker/colossus/voidray, but it's not a hard counter. Macro and positioning will decide who wins the battle.
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I've been adding void rays in my play vs zerg. The thing is if you screw up with your first VR and die to Queens it's like GG 80% -.-;;
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How do you deal with just mass queens eating up your void rays?
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nice post, basically rush vr as fast as possible and while z is freaking out, try to expo and get away with it :D
But I also feel that the idra build (whore drones) only works for him, and Z is supposed to be played with aggression/harass while slowly building econ. Drone whoring is I feel unnecessary and dangerous after a certain point.
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On August 04 2010 23:32 monkxly wrote:
nice post, basically rush vr as fast as possible and while z is freaking out, try to expo and get away with it :D
But I also feel that the idra build (whore drones) only works for him, and Z is supposed to be played with aggression/harass while slowly building econ. Drone whoring is I feel unnecessary and dangerous after a certain point.
anxiously awaiting: the monkxly build. aka 4 hatch hydra into hydra guardian SCBW ZvT.
on topic: i'm curious when the observer timing is in this build, as it could potentially be important dealing with annoying creep tumours and/or burrowed roaches.
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I've answered the latest questions in the second post!
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I don't quite agree that phoenixes can't fend off early pushes. Certainly they have more trouble with early roach or speedling pushes than void rays but they are by no means impossible to stop. Phoenixes are also far stronger than void rays against hydras and limit zerg's options more (see my previous post for reasoning).
What I'm getting at is I feel like opening phoenixes makes you more vulnerable than void rays in early game, relying more on control, but in exchange you get a stronger midgame.
One thing I was actually thinking about was opening Phoenix->void ray before continuing to pump phoenixes. This gives you 2 gravitons for your first round of harass allowing you to be bolder about picking off queens and retains the midgame advantages of phoenixes, only slightly delaying the critical mass.
Edit: I should add that I usually tech to HTs and chargelots first after my stargate in this build while chronoing ground weapons upgrades, only getting a robotics for the observer in order to push back creep. After I take my 3rd (or sooner if Z is stuck on 2 bases for a long time) I put down a second robotics and robo bay and do a fast switch to colossi, usually with at least +2 weapons and +3 on the way.
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Nice strat, similar to nony's build in some ways, where you go for voids instead of phoenix. What happens when the opponent goes mass speedling and denies your expo?
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I have a question for you antimage. How do you effectively keep track of a possible speedling counter to your nat just as you're building it? Haven't got a chance to watch the reps yet as the host is overwhelmed or something so I dont know if its evident in the replays.
Edit: Any chance of a secondary host for the repays? Been trying for like 40 minutes now and no dice.
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On August 05 2010 01:50 StarBrift wrote:
I have a question for you antimage. How do you effectively keep track of a possible speedling counter to your nat just as you're building it? Haven't got a chance to watch the reps yet as the host is overwhelmed or something so I dont know if its evident in the replays.
Edit: Any chance of a secondary host for the repays? Been trying for like 40 minutes now and no dice.
I'm guessing you'll have enough gateway units (most zealots) to defend it.
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How many voidrays do you pump out?
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Have you ever heard of baneling busts? Just sayin.
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Thanks for the alternate link!
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Tried this today. For some reason a zerg tried to baneling bust me on cross positions on LT, he failed and I pretty much followed the guide to the best of my ability.
Worked really well. I'm just wondering what do you do against mass ling into muta ling early game to get your expo relatively safely. I feel a little weak until some overlords start dieing.
Also if unscouted gas geysers are awesome targets to slow zerg's tech down.Can usually take one as long as there is only 1 queen around.
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Not sure if this was said yet but what about adding in a phoenix in the starting harass to pick off lone queens?
edit: Just read the whole first 2 posts i disagree with that, It cost less to make a pheonix then a voidray ;P
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First time poster! Go easy on me
I tried this after reading it through, and although I'm not the best at following every step to perfection, I did feel this guide helped me a lot versus zerg in my placement matches.
I think this guy is low platinum on EU server. So don't expect anything smanchy fancy macro/micro wise from either of us.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135788.jpg)
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VR Expand? Now that's an idea. Never seen that before.
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I ve done it twice and been countered on my exp by speedlings, then muta , and the second time straight by muta's ...
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On August 05 2010 15:30 Lordcamel wrote:I ve done it twice and been countered on my exp by speedlings, then muta , and the second time straight by muta's ...
Execution of the strategy requires you to scout well. You need to scout with your probe, and send out another probe if you see something weird (no expo, etc.) and adjust accordingly. I generally find 2 gates then a stargate good enough against a 1 base speedling transition into 2 hatch.
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On August 05 2010 15:39 Antimage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 15:30 Lordcamel wrote:I ve done it twice and been countered on my exp by speedlings, then muta , and the second time straight by muta's ... Execution of the strategy requires you to scout well. You need to scout with your probe, and send out another probe if you see something weird (no expo, etc.) and adjust accordingly. I generally find 2 gates then a stargate good enough against a 1 base speedling transition into 2 hatch.
I personally think the standard speedling/muta does deal with this fine. They have early map control with their first group of zerglings and getting a few extra queens to defend doesn't really hurt them. As you're expanding he can just mass produce drones and get a fast spire up. Mutalisks deal with void rays pretty well when the void rays are by themselves. Then you end up dealing with the insane combo that is speedling/mutalisk
Instead of opening fast void ray, I started going fast phoenix to shut down the possibility of speedling/mutalisk from the start. Then in a similar fashion I expo with my ground units. Now Idra said colossus is sort of a fad and only works sometimes and I'm starting to agree with him. Mass roach into ultralisk is really strong vs colossi builds. So because of this I'm thinking about just going gateway units+immortal+phoenix
I do like the fact that void rays can shut down expos so I may add a couple later
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Nice strategy/guide. The muta ling Zergs have really been giving me trouble lately. Do you think this would work well in that scenario?
Edit: okay so the guy above me says Phoenix is the way to go vs muta sling. I guess I'll try them both out.
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Nicely written thogh, I am gonna try t figure waht to do againt this bs :D...
1 thing though, if the P is getting his scout denied by speedlings, wouldnt a muta army be pretty harsh on you?? Do you use your voids to denie speedlings from killing your scouting probes or do what? That is really the only thing about this guide is how probe scouts are gonna work, because if speedlings roams the map while hiding his tech from voids (forcing queens doesnt make that cause easier since they help spreading extra tumors when voids give them a break?)
Im just curious.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
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I tried this out against a couple of zergs and I completely torched them. I'm a gold division toss and I beat a couple of Diamond division zergs with this, fairly easily, so yeah, it can work.
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Tried it in a real game now for the first time, and it's really effective.
Got a "balance plz" before he left 
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Great post AntiMage ! and thx a lot to share it with us.
I was wondering what was your analyse of your loss vs Slush.
My analys is : "omg Slush is a monster killing machine which come from another dimension to wipe us all"
hum not pretty helpfull
You didn't do your regular Fast VR Expand vs him. is-it because he fast lair ?
You seems less confident vs him, am I right ?
You're a great protoss btw.
PS : sorry for my bad english.
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I think people have to stop seeing it as an end-all-be-all strategy. He's not telling you to continually pump voids if you see mutas or something. It's a general outline vs a generic macro zerg, pointing out particular vulnerabilities and timings. In fact a lot of the pointers here would help newer players a lot, even if they aren't using this strat/build.
Personally I think the strength of voids is it's ability to keep zerg from just expanding like crazy, and something I prefer over phoenixes on larger maps. Voids are also do better vs common zerg late game units of ultra/roach/corruptor. But phoenixes do seem stronger in the mid-game and of course vs mutas. It's going to depend a lot on your oppponent's army comp and the map obviously.
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Glad that a lot of people are enjoying the strat =) If anyone has concerns with transitions or some odd timings or anything else, plz post the replay here and I'll take a look.
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I tried it out in a few games yesterday and I have to admit - I like this build. Once you get a crisp timing it is really solid since voidrays are always good for some damage and also for defense if used properly. Since it gives you also lots of opportunities to scout and / or force your enemy to a certain playstyle.
A few weakpoints to work on I noticed:
- heavy zergling all-in is kinda hard since voidrays charge not well on speedlings. You need enough FF and good micro to survive this properly but once you did you can finish him off easily
- heavy baneling bust on your core throws you off kinda hard - especially on small maps - thicken you wall with some additional buildings will keep you alive until you wreck his base with the void rays
- on LT the build is not very nydus-hydra drop on the cliff proof - once he is save in his base you should keep an eye on overseer aiming for vision on the cliff (use the voidray survivors or go blink)
- get your 3rd early - your colloss die hard to fast ultralisk so you need more gas to compensate the quick tech after expo and get some counters up!
Overall a nice build to pull if and have some variety if you play like a Bo5 ;-)
Thanks for the writeup!
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My biggest concern about doing this strat is basically a zerg that simply leaves all his overlords in a safe location and uses lings to scout as much as he can. Once he wants to take his 3rd he just leaves about 5-6 hydras by his 3rd till its up and running. I'm not sure its possible to push at that point to take advantage of it.
Its very very hard to do real damage that will slow him down if he's careful about not loosing overlords and I've basically wasted a lot of gas and minerals on 2 flying glass cannons with no armored targets to shoot till late game when ultras / broodlords show up.
I'm no zerg player so I really don't know exactly how much the lack of information on the map itself affects them but with some good ling control I would imagine its not so bad
I'm not saying the strat is bad by any means. But those are some of the concerns I would have.
Beyond that I really love how much info you can get on the zerg with this and how void rays make people "scared" to leave their base.
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May I request a match vs this build?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
For a long time in Beta I played a 1gate pressure into VR opening. I just re-tried it out and well the pressure can really throw a Zerg off his game. Especially since the standard counter to Zealot pressure is Roach (which dies to VR something terrible)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136188.jpg)
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Ok I¨'ve been playing this build now as standard vs zerg at around 700pts diamond on almost all maps (atleast the ones with an easy nat) and have been quite successful. The big problem I have is when someone tech rushes to hydras and cuts drones and all ins the expo. I can't really sac it cause the colossi tech really needs 4 gas. The other problem I have is when zerg does like 40 zergling attack on the expansion. Sure he lost alot of drones doing that but he can just redrone later since I'm only on one base.
Also I find that counters and drops are really strong due to the all in nature of most players at this stage. I'm thinking about delaying the robo slightly in favor of +1 attack vs the first ling attack. Sure the colossi aggression would come later but it would also be stronger thanks to the +1.
I noticed how +1 could be useful in a game where the zerg went 1 base lair into roach / hydra (with roaches on hatch tech). I got my expo up later (after 3 gate) and did almost no damage with the voidrays but I popped a force for cannons at my nat and also got the +1 weapons. Then he tried to all in me with like 6 hydras 10 roaches and mass ling rally. I don't think I would have taken that without the +1 for my zealots.
I dunno, it might be impossible to adjust the timings with a forge and +1 early but I'm gonna look for ways to do it. Alternatively I could skimp on sentries a bit to get the +1 out and still get colo tech in time.
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Question for Antimage (or whomever else): Instead of going colossus after expanding, why not go down the templar techpath instead? You can get chargelots pretty quickly keep the pressure on the zerg (as long as he doesn't get too many hydras) and storm isn't very far away.
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On August 06 2010 18:02 GoDannY wrote:
I tried it out in a few games yesterday and I have to admit - I like this build. Once you get a crisp timing it is really solid since voidrays are always good for some damage and also for defense if used properly. Since it gives you also lots of opportunities to scout and / or force your enemy to a certain playstyle.
A few weakpoints to work on I noticed:
- heavy zergling all-in is kinda hard since voidrays charge not well on speedlings. You need enough FF and good micro to survive this properly but once you did you can finish him off easily
- heavy baneling bust on your core throws you off kinda hard - especially on small maps - thicken you wall with some additional buildings will keep you alive until you wreck his base with the void rays
- on LT the build is not very nydus-hydra drop on the cliff proof - once he is save in his base you should keep an eye on overseer aiming for vision on the cliff (use the voidray survivors or go blink)
- get your 3rd early - your colloss die hard to fast ultralisk so you need more gas to compensate the quick tech after expo and get some counters up!
Overall a nice build to pull if and have some variety if you play like a Bo5 ;-)
Thanks for the writeup!
If you suspect a zergling all-in (e.g. more than 6 lings), you will have to scout more and add gates faster. A sentry wouldn't go wrong either after 2 or 3 zealots. The key here is to scouting. If you think it's coming, scout with your first void ray for the drone count. You can always just cancel your expo and hold your ramp, getting a few more gates or going for 2gate-colo then expanding. Won't put you too behind versus this strat.
A baneling bust is very uncharacteristic on a gate/core block, but still very possible. Again, send another probe out. Usually a zerg player going banelings won't expo. If you scout it while building your stargate, just add another 2 gate immediately after and get sentries to buy time. Holding this off pretty much secures you the win.
Nydus-hydra drop: scout your base better I suppose. You'll have enough forces to take it out if he goes this route.
Thanks =) I know that any kind of aggressive play is strong against this strat, so the point is not to dedicate yourself to the opening even after putting your stargate up, and to scout for drone/zergling counts and expo timing.
On August 06 2010 18:05 Doko wrote:
My biggest concern about doing this strat is basically a zerg that simply leaves all his overlords in a safe location and uses lings to scout as much as he can. Once he wants to take his 3rd he just leaves about 5-6 hydras by his 3rd till its up and running. I'm not sure its possible to push at that point to take advantage of it.
Its very very hard to do real damage that will slow him down if he's careful about not loosing overlords and I've basically wasted a lot of gas and minerals on 2 flying glass cannons with no armored targets to shoot till late game when ultras / broodlords show up.
I'm no zerg player so I really don't know exactly how much the lack of information on the map itself affects them but with some good ling control I would imagine its not so bad
I'm not saying the strat is bad by any means. But those are some of the concerns I would have.
Beyond that I really love how much info you can get on the zerg with this and how void rays make people "scared" to leave their base.
No zerg will leave their overlords all in a safe location =P Nevertheless, that won't hurt you too much... I didn't get more than 1 or 2 overlord kills in most of my games playing this strategy. If the zerg player plays passsively, you should be about even or ahead in probe count. That's a good thing, you don't have to take advantage of it, just match his expo with your own.
Real damage isn't necessary Void rays: deny further expoes, scout the timing of the tech, deny any overlord scouting, shuts down roach/zergling attacks, and force hydras or mutas.
The strat isn't foolproof of course, but the player has to adjust to what they see anyway; I feel it is a very strong build in the hands of a capable player!
On August 06 2010 19:10 forgotten0ne wrote:
May I request a match vs this build?
Antimage.291, msg me when I'm on.
On August 06 2010 23:59 StarBrift wrote:
Ok I¨'ve been playing this build now as standard vs zerg at around 700pts diamond on almost all maps (atleast the ones with an easy nat) and have been quite successful. The big problem I have is when someone tech rushes to hydras and cuts drones and all ins the expo. I can't really sac it cause the colossi tech really needs 4 gas. The other problem I have is when zerg does like 40 zergling attack on the expansion. Sure he lost alot of drones doing that but he can just redrone later since I'm only on one base.
Also I find that counters and drops are really strong due to the all in nature of most players at this stage. I'm thinking about delaying the robo slightly in favor of +1 attack vs the first ling attack. Sure the colossi aggression would come later but it would also be stronger thanks to the +1.
I noticed how +1 could be useful in a game where the zerg went 1 base lair into roach / hydra (with roaches on hatch tech). I got my expo up later (after 3 gate) and did almost no damage with the voidrays but I popped a force for cannons at my nat and also got the +1 weapons. Then he tried to all in me with like 6 hydras 10 roaches and mass ling rally. I don't think I would have taken that without the +1 for my zealots.
I dunno, it might be impossible to adjust the timings with a forge and +1 early but I'm gonna look for ways to do it. Alternatively I could skimp on sentries a bit to get the +1 out and still get colo tech in time.
Tech rushing to hydras, cutting drones is something you have to scout out. Add cannons/sentries before your colo gets there. If it's a 1 base hydra ... well this build isn't recommended against 1 base zerg builds because of exactly that =)
When the zerg masses lings on the expansion, just cancel it, get 2 more gates out then secure it with more forces. You'll delay your expo, but they delay their macro for units that are useless against your colo/gateway ball, whereas your units are still very useful later on.
Colossi aggression would come later, but it's more a necessity to get it out to counter fast hydra attacks off 2 bases.
Sure, try some other transitions and let me know how it works?
On August 07 2010 00:09 xDaunt wrote:
Question for Antimage (or whomever else): Instead of going colossus after expanding, why not go down the templar techpath instead? You can get chargelots pretty quickly keep the pressure on the zerg (as long as he doesn't get too many hydras) and storm isn't very far away.
To fend off a fast hydra break attempt, HT doesn't come out fast enough and chargelots melt without splash damage support (zerglings, hydras, roaches all do pretty well against them).
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lol i actually did this yesterday before i read this. i went into expo, more gateways + forge 1-1 then a robo for obs.(forced) and another expo kept him in his 2 base forever lol. he couldn't expand or move out of his base. Had to get obs because he got tunneling claws... he didn't have enough hydra's because he over reacted to the voidrays and got like 100000000 spore colonies lol. so i didn't even need collosi.
i wasn't planning to go robo but if he was better i think i would have been destroyed by burrowed roaches and hydra push. so def gonna try void rays into fast expo and collosi.
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As I showed Antimage today in a few pickup games, there is a good not really out of the way counter to this. *hint* Just think about your gas managenent Zergs and you can stop this fairly easily.
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I've started opening void rays against every race recently and I've had a lot of success:
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/Loophole/WinningStreak.gif)
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The transition seems to be well sorted out. But I think that with the state of Zerg, and how we (I play zerg) know how important creep is we've all started to get 1-2 extra queens, forgoing the spore crawlers against toss all together. Early voidrays seem utterly hopeless against Zerg. I think you'd be far better off getting several phoenix if all you're hoping to do is overlord harass/force me to pull them in for protection (cutting off vision).
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pretty cool alternative to 10gate forge FE and 13g15g FE builds (since 1-base shit doesnt really cut it at all anymore as you said).
Would definitely be a useful alternative to switch it up, especially on maps where the nat is crazy-wide open (which blizz seems to love on their maps for some reason...)
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On August 08 2010 06:57 forgotten0ne wrote:
As I showed Antimage today in a few pickup games, there is a good not really out of the way counter to this. *hint* Just think about your gas managenent Zergs and you can stop this fairly easily.
Er, why not just make the relevant post.
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On August 09 2010 00:53 Ndugu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 06:57 forgotten0ne wrote:
As I showed Antimage today in a few pickup games, there is a good not really out of the way counter to this. *hint* Just think about your gas managenent Zergs and you can stop this fairly easily. Er, why not just make the relevant post.
Because in the early stages of any game, there's a huge advtange to having builds that aren't mainstream, or leaked. The more people start responding a certain way, the more likely you get to come up with something new. I just like to let Zergs know when they read these "powerful builds" against them, sticking to Zerg isn't a lost cause.
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that and I've found adjustments around it... When I'm done my exam tmrw, I'll practice more with forgotten0ne and we'll update the OP =)
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I've mucked around with some +1 timings early on in this build with a delayed robo but I gotta say it isn't doing it for me. Only int he games where zerg does ling bust on the nat I'ev been sucessfu with that alteration.
I gotta give this thread major props though as this build has taken my PvZ to another level. It's great because it lets me learn timings of aggression and weakness within the zerg build that I have use of even when doing other builds.
For reference I was about 600 pts a few days ago on EU ladder and rank 5 in my division (not a very noteworthy one). After I started using this build and altered my PvT builds a bit I rose to 800 points being ranked #12 on the EU server overall and #4 for protoss players. My PvZ win ratio skyrocketed and I basically only lost if I faced someone like dimaga / haypro (or other known names) or if I fail to retain my voidrays somehow.
It's kinda ironic how angry some kids get when I use this build. They start screaming about all in or whatnot. But this build is the very definition of stable play. It has long term transitions that aim to get you into lategame rather than win early.
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With zerg players like Sheth, SLush, and Idra leading the way, the imbalance in PvZ has begun to stand out.e
Lmao, stopped reading
User was warned for this post
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this has been done against me several times, well not exactly this, but sort of. I think even in the beta, not sure though. It's quite strong
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Lmao, stopped reading
Zerg tends to beat toss at pro level afaik. Zerg are really hard to play though so the lower you go the more in favor of toss it becomes.
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question for antimage:
do you think a 2 gate opening can also transition smoothly into this build? (or would there be timing issues?)
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This build has made me very happy with PvZ. I actually can go into late game without having to do some 10 pylon 10 gate build to beat the Zerg into the ground early on in order to feel at par with them in the mid game.
Props again on this gem. No more all in's or timing pushes. The most important factor is the versatility it gives the Protoss in PvZ. Being unpredictable is always a formidable weapon.
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OK, so here s my insight, after watching the games.
Slush pwned you with solid normal zerg play so no need to comment on that.
The Machine game was quite surprising as he's a very good zerg and your opening did no demage wahtsoever yet you totally walked over him. That was mostly due to his failed attack and the map itself, after that you could have A-moved into his natural with your 3 colossi +army as he had nothing, but surprisingly you let him live and still beat his remade army without any trouble. So def. strong play there, my problem is though that there's really no need to do that opening on SoW as that map is so good for PvZ you have to do sg stupid to not come ahead from the earlygame.
Looky started the game well against you on Metalopolis, even though you got the best spawning spots for PvZ, but he got overly excited i guess and had a really delayed Lair and a reduced drone production which resulted in you having a way better economy. Switching to Mutas would have been a good idea but on those position even if you were cought off guard could have allined with your army and win.
The other Metalo game was realy poorly played by the zerg. Despite having ridiculously high apm his micro was lacking and he barely made drones. I was sitting there and watching as he didnt amke a single drone for 6 minutes in midgame, then making 3-4 as taking the gold, than nothing for 3 minutes, then a couple more then nothing till the end of the game. You constantly had +20 workers or more, and he ahd no upgrades would have been surprising if you wouldnt have won that. The advantage of your build is that the close-air distance spawning point now help you on that map, which otherwise i'd say it s good for the zerg.
The Greedo game, i really think he outplayed you and made the good decisions, even though you pulled ahead in economy and ingaged in the best possible area you lost your army and would have lost your newest expos immediatly had he made 2 overseers, which i'm sure zergs will get as default in every game soon.
My approach to your build.
What i do is the following. Not make many hydras! Your strategy as far as i can tell is about forcing him to make Hydras and countering that with Colossi + denying the new exps. I think if the Zerg doesnt go for hydras, at least not that many but Queens he's way better off. I havent seen you having more then 3 Voidrays at any point, that could be denied with queens only or possibly 4-5 extra hydras. All your oponents made at least 20 hydras early on, exactly what you wanted. Instead wasting your money on Hydras which you do not need for survivng as zerg, you could have queens and a faster Hive and 3rd and a lot mroe drones with a larger creep-highway making a medium sized army preferably from roaches and lings but hydras too if the zerg feels like it. I really think ultra-hydra is the way to go against that army.
Conclusions:
I think the positions helped you a great deal, i would like to see your build on Metalo and Lost Temple cross positons, Scrap Staiton, Desert Oasis. Your build benefits from the fact that most zergs overreacted/paniced and let you pull ahead in economy. You were almost always ahead in probecount, possibly because the Zergs thought you were allining/cutting probes. If the zergs realize that they can power drones more in early midgame i think they can stop it.
Cheers, glad to see some Protosses do anyting else then 4 gate allin and 2 base double robo allin strategy.
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Ok, after playing around with this a bit more I really like it in certain situations. I open with stargate pretty much every PvZ now, but rather than going phoenixes every game I will go for phoenixes against a faster expo (more opportunities to pick off workers with phoenixes than void rays), but against a Zerg that is doing some sort of one-base play or expands but pretty late I will open with 2-3 void rays before starting phoenixes to help crush any speedling/baneling or roach allin.
Stargate is really an amazing tech opening tbh, between phoenixes and void rays you can punish almost anything the Zerg decides to do while buying you time to get an expo up and tech up to colossus or HT.
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Mini Anti-Mage Reporting in, Build Is a success so far! Thanks, good guide man
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Hey Antimage, is there any reason to attack extractors with the void rays when you could hit drones instead? I couldn't find my opponent's overlords in a recent game and extractors have like 750 health, so I just started hitting drones instead. I was quite surprised by how quickly drones die to 2 uncharged void rays. With drones at only 45 health, there was no way for my opponent to react fast enough to defend with queens before I sniped a drone or two. Have you tried it?
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Hmm, I've tried this build out in all my PvZ lately and it's pretty good. I have a hard time dealing with muta harass though since you are pretty vulnerable to it due to the void ray/FE. It also lets them get corrupters on a dime.
Also, void rays do like zero damage against the Zerg who gets 4 queens. It hardly cuts into their drone production at all, costs zero gas and lets them tech as usual. This strategy only works if they refuse to adapt to it coming. The amount of money spent on voids/stargate really doesn't pay off at all.
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this strat is poony
i pwned Gerbil with 2 Void Rays
either this start poony or Gerbil fuking noob
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I tried the void ray strat, went for stalkers/zealots/colossi but he chessed me with mutalisk then massed roaches/hydralisk and took down my colossi with corruptors
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-137617.jpg) ][/url]
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could you get away with making phoenixes instead and then go for an earlier push? i think they work better for killing queens and ovies and work out abt the same cost and time. i guess it will delay robo by 50 gas though if you were to get 5 nix, but 4 should work
or does this fe centre around vrs threat of being able to take out tech buildings ?
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"Just like Sheth intends to make mini-Sheths with his infamous ZvP thread, so I will make mini-Antimages to combat those mini-Sheths."
You are scarry
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I completely agree with the OP. I use a slightly varied version, where I push with my 3gate and void ray army around the same time I'm ready to expo. I don't send my Void Rays out early to scout and snipe Overlords. I try to keep it a hidden tech, letting my opponent see my gate army. When my push comes, I usually hit the window where zerg is weak after pumping drones to his expo.
This may seem like an all-in, but I have my expo up, knowing I'm safe by containing my opponent. My push fails if the zerg gets 3-4 queens + roaches. The queens out range my void rays and the roaches can deal with my gate army fairly well. However, the queens usally aren't in position and they only have the extra queens if they scout my stargate.
If they scout the stargate, I still push, but cut void ray production and get a robo during the push.
Two things typically happen with the push:
1. I win out right. I'm able to kill his army and kill his natural. A lot of times my opponent will go roaches to stop my '4 gate push,' but with Void Rays and a little micro, the roaches melt.
2. If they tech early to hydra, they won't have very many, and I can usually snipe their natural before enough get out. I'll poke up into the main, but they will typically have enough at that point to stop my push. Now I have 2 base vs. 1 base zerg. Tech to collusus and gg.
A lot of times zerg will go ling muta which can pose a problem if I wait to long to push. But again, I push during a window, and they won't have enough to stop me from sniping the expo.
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On August 10 2010 18:29 iamke55 wrote:
Hey Antimage, is there any reason to attack extractors with the void rays when you could hit drones instead?
I can probably answer that: Your voids won't charge when they're hitting drones, at which point you're not going to be able to kill any units that come to destroy your voids.
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Is this the build you used against me? :/
hehe
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I read this thread a weak ago and then used it by mistake the other night with success. It plays alot like Gnial's PvT opener. I showed him a double gate, through cybercore down, dropped gate after hit scout left. Since it was on DO by the time I got there he had a bunch of roaches out... I showed my army and harassed a little bit and then hit his gas with 2 VRs while he tried to get to my base and race me with roaches. I just blocked the ramp and waited for another VR to pop and then he GG'd and left. Killing extractors so quickly with VRs make it hard for a distracted opponent to get any kind of anti-air. The double gate before core opening almost forces him into roaches and that was even without hiding the stargate.
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Okay, after playing this build more on the ladder, it's clear to me that it's not very good. Every Zerg builds 4 queens against any stargate build and renders that opening nearly useless. They can power like fuck afterwards and just overwhelm your colossus/gateway pretty easily.
Just IMO, but I think 2-gate pressure is a much stronger build.
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Strictly looking at your build order and choke placement, I guarantee the oversky build will kill you before VR come out.
13p, 15g, 100g speed + 2nd hatch
linglinglingling ~36 -> attack your front door. There's no way in hell you will ever have enough to defend or stall long enough to the flood of zerglings with this fast of tech.
Without fail, I immediately go for this oversky ling rush build on the Z side whenever I see a 1 gate core build. I have never lost a game in any configuration (including full building walloffs) when P try to rush VR this fast.
At the very best you get 1 VR out that can pick fruitlessly at the mass of lings in your base or go directly to the Z base who has 2 queens waiting for you.
2 gate pressure is a MUCH better approach to take for faster P expos.
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Haha sorry for the late update =)
My computer has been acting up lately and I haven't been able to really do anything I want ...
This strategy works best against pool-hatch-gas or hatch-pool-gas builds, as early zergling speed really hurts this strategy. However, it is not infallible, even against the builds it is designed to work well against if you don't follow up correctly.
I think of this opening as one of many others in my PvZ strategies versus a 2-base zerg.
Some adjustments-
If you see a fast lair and no ling speed (first 100 gas going into the lair upgrade), you can be sure that he's fast teching to hydras to bring down your expansion. In this case, cut probes more (you'll be even on bases so don't be afraid of doing this), get a forge out, and get 2 or 3 cannons to defend against it, and chrono out that colossus out while using your 3 or 4 warpgates as much as possible. I believe that once you have your robo/gateways building after your nexus, you can continue to pump probes.
If he expands again, you can get more gates out, pump more units and more colossi from your one robo, and use a timing push to clean him up.
Yes, the oversky build beats this build pretty handedly =( Just think of this as another tool in addition to 2 gate expand, gate/forge expand, and 3 gate openings!
I've been busy with school and other things - I'm going on vacation in a few days so don't expect a very detailed update ^^
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On August 13 2010 11:01 zomgzergrush wrote:
Strictly looking at your build order and choke placement, I guarantee the oversky build will kill you before VR come out.
13p, 15g, 100g speed + 2nd hatch
linglinglingling ~36 -> attack your front door. There's no way in hell you will ever have enough to defend or stall long enough to the flood of zerglings with this fast of tech.
Without fail, I immediately go for this oversky ling rush build on the Z side whenever I see a 1 gate core build. I have never lost a game in any configuration (including full building walloffs) when P try to rush VR this fast.
At the very best you get 1 VR out that can pick fruitlessly at the mass of lings in your base or go directly to the Z base who has 2 queens waiting for you.
2 gate pressure is a MUCH better approach to take for faster P expos.
I suggest you dont dismiss the build until you've actually tried it. I'ev held of mass mass mass ling multiple times by just spamming chrono boost on my gate and making zealots. Unless he forgoes killing my probe in his main then there is no chance of his getting to my base before 2 zealots. If he indeed goes straight for the main just send like 4 probes to block the wall with your 1 zealot and then keep making zealots. Also adding a second gate faster and pressuring him into more lings is good if you intend on making a voidray still. Obviously you adjust your build when you see early pool and that he saves up larvae.
Actually this build works well even with a White_ra style second pylon before gas. That build is alot more flexible vs early pressure as you start your first zealot before core. Notice that you don't need to get the voidray as fast when he goes early pool if you can force him into making lings.
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Anyone else have any luck with this build? It seems like every Zerg I play (~700 Diamond) builds 4-5 queens. When that doesn't happen, this build works great, since you can be an asshole and pick off so many random things.
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So from watching your replays, I gather that this build works on the premise that the zerg must make queens/hydras to defend. Since he's focusing on defending, his macro slips as well as next to none zergling production. This allows the expansion. Since you continue with your harass with your voids, the zerg has to go either hydras or mutas. Basically, this build assumes the zerg will go hydras as you always get your robo and bay as soon as you get your expansion up.
Imo, it's still kind of shaky late mid game as you move into colossus because those hydras can kill you too easily. Also, even though zerglings are obviously bad against void rays, if he massed up enough zerglings, he could kill your expansion while going hydras for a slightly later game push with hydra/ling.
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On August 20 2010 02:20 0mar wrote:
Anyone else have any luck with this build? It seems like every Zerg I play (~700 Diamond) builds 4-5 queens. When that doesn't happen, this build works great, since you can be an asshole and pick off so many random things.
I succesfully attempted this even though the zerg had hydra's and several queens (he teched before expo).
I still managed to harass him and pick a few overlords and deny 3 expansions when he saw my expansion.
It's really great if u can't kill any overlord or anything else at his main base.
You just put each VR at an expo and deny when he expands while u expand urself.
I won the game eventually and I have to say thank you to antimage.
I have tried this build a few times (note:4 times before) but now I got the timing down (I think).
Harassment works and if the zerg fails and has 1 queen I end the game right there or I pick a few overlords making him supply blocked and not have a queen for atleast queen production time + supply block time.
The build is great and I hope u can explain more succesfull builds @Antimage.
I love the macro game as Protoss now :D and hope u have more builds like these.
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Thumbs up to you sir!
I've just played a pretty even game against rank 1 diamond zerg after reading this (I'm high plat only). He opened with 1 base roaches and VR popped out just in time to save my base. I managed to snipe his roach warren soon after that. He obviously then made more queens and went for hydras while I teched up to colossi. I only lost due to not scouting his spire in the late game and having too many zealots in my army, but I did have a clear macro advantage at some point (which I didn't use though).
I used to play in pretty similar way, but opened with phoenixes instead of VRs, which were not quite as effective. Do you think adding DTs to the build at some point would be helpful to prevent zerg from mass expanding?
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I am wondering: how does this build fare with the recent decrease to the damage output of a charged Void Ray (from 10+15 vs armor to 8+8 vs armor)?
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On October 20 2010 21:32 Malderon wrote:
I am wondering: how does this build fare with the recent decrease to the damage output of a charged Void Ray (from 10+15 vs armor to 8+8 vs armor)?
It still does fine. The point of the void ray is to have the defensive superiority because lings and roaches can't hit void rays. It forces either hydras or more queens. Afterward, you can respond accordingly.
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Unfortunately, my experience is that Zergs are learning how to deal with this build without reacting at all. It no longer forces hydras or more queens (they will build a 3rd or eventually a 4th queen, but they won't cut drones to do it) or even a fast lair, and I never see spore colonies anymore.
I always felt that the strongest reaction to this build was in fact to go mass mutalisk, and that is even stronger than ever with the last patch. You can make him commit to the stargates, then tech switch to hydras when YOU are ready. But zergs also have access to new timing pushes with roaches against this build that they are taking advantage of.
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Any replays of using this after the roach buff? I'm really lookin for a new non-robo opening build to get an early expo up.
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The thing I don't get about this build is how forcing mutas is a good thing -_-
If you don't get pheonixes and go straight for collosi mutas will just pwn your face in. And as others have said, every zerg nowadays gets at least 4 queens. Coupled with the fact that any lair tech choice zerg decides to utilise counters void rays, VR harass is practically worthless.
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On November 09 2010 07:00 Geovu wrote:
The thing I don't get about this build is how forcing mutas is a good thing -_-
Forcing mutas is a awsome if you already have a stargate up - few people seem to get this, but phoenixes BEAT mutas in straight up battles cost-effectively.
You can frickin a-move equal cost phoenixes into mutas and win.
The only problem is, that IF mutas are flying around in your base and you don't have a stargate up, it's already too late, they will get an absurd number of mutas before you can get anything remotely able to beat this out of your stargates.
Nevertheless this build should allow you to scout the spire very early and deny the mutas with pre-built phoenixes from the beginning. Today no sane zerg will do this though, everybody will go with fast hydras. Which again isn't too bad if you scout it in time and prepare.
This being said I never really liked the build, was too gimmicky for me....so take my comments with a grain of salt. Not that this would be any sort of "serious" critique, I just prefer 15 nexus into mass-gates or two gate stalker into expo into whatever more.
EDIT: just did a quick unit-test since many seem to not know this: 6 phoenixes (900/600) vs 8 mutas (800/800), a-moved into one another --> 4 phoenixes live afterwards.
8 phoenixes (1200/800) vs 11 mutas (1100/1100), a-moved into one another --> 4-5 phoenixes live
and just for the sake of the argument:
20 phoenixes (3000/2000) vs 25 mutas (2500/2500), a-moved into one another
--> the absurd number of 11 phoenixes survives
Really, if you got a stargate and scout a spire, you can consider yourself lucky.
Mutas eat up gas like roflwhat, and the funny thing is, if you are in the phoenix vs muta-battle, that can be won very cost-effectively, you are in the rare position to DENY zergs their mass-expand.
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I love phoenix play and actually like it when zerg go muta, I just can't stand the roach play lately which has made my normal 15Nex play pretty much obsolete at 1400-1600zergs I keep running into. If I can reverse that and get the void first then FE I would be fine with that, just looking for a good build to transition out of 15Nex.
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Yeah forcing mutas was awesome. The only problem is the tech switch. It's easy to force him to go mutas, but it's not actually easy to make him KEEP going mutas. What you see is, he builds 6-14 muta, takes out your void rays (being slow and easy to snipe and doing even less damage now), and then pumps corrupters. Now you're in real trouble, because you can't go phoenix against corruptor, you can't go collosus, you better go gateway + templar + forge upgrades. It's difficult to scout him now because he's got an infestor or two with fungal growth, corruptors, and overseers. And then he builds Hydralisk into mass muta or Broodlords and tries to snipe your templar with any surviving muta. So now you need those void rays again, and phoenix, maybe with a side of carriers (if you've been able to trade armies).
It was a very tense and even matchup, requiring lots of scouting and micro. Now it is pretty favored for Zerg.
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I've been doing this build without VRs usually as my standard build (cause I think the VR style is too weak against muta), just going phoenix right off the bat in place of the VR unless I scout some sort of roach aggression (then I get a VR or two for defense) or anything else funky that requires the VR's muscle, and using very similar timings.
I've been winning at my level (like avg low mid diamond 1400 or so) almost every time I use it but I don't know if it's actually good against good players. Anyone have any input? Mass ling aggression is one of my worries, also a mass hydra bust but no one I play responds very efficiently.
I really like it with phoenix because you get almost perfect scouting, they sometimes deny mutas altogether allowing good colossus opportunity, and often my phoenixes (I usually build maybe 6-8 if they aren't going heavy muta) still are around late game for expansion scouting and map control.
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Ive been doing a similar build pvz, with the same thought process (using vr to force hydra, clean up with colossus).
I was thinking if they try to go spire tech just add on another stargate and go phoenix. Feasable?
Edit: I read the later pages and found the answer, sry i hadn't read thru all the pages.
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Thanks for the guide, I have been needing a better plan vs Zerg!
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Just got into Platinum after placement matches and tried this:
PvZ on DQ - worked very well considering he went very FE. Targeted queens, then the hatch at his natural. After I killed a few OL's he rage quit. 
Nice strat, nice to have another strat other than 4 warpgatee timing which was my goto PvZ strat.
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Sorry for bumping this thread, but is this build still up-to-date? Or is there new FE stargate PvZ build?
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I need to try this, my PvZ is literally gold level. While I can beat master terrans and protoss. Starting to be glad I quit zerg xD
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On June 15 2011 05:46 whereismymind wrote:
Sorry for bumping this thread, but is this build still up-to-date? Or is there new FE stargate PvZ build?
Let it die in peace, let it die in peace.
No this strategy does not work any more. To sum it up this strategy relies on expanding without sentries, just 1 stalker and a few zeals. These days any good zerg will just deny your expo. Stargate openings are viable and this is blast from the past actually made me realize I can try a much faster stargate than I normally do but no, this build is dead.
Here are the reasons why this build is not viable anymore:
Balance Changes: Roaches have 4 range. Voids rays do less damage. Sentry build time is decreased. Zealot build time is increased. Warp gate build time is increased. Oh ya, don't forget infestors.
Meta Game: Ling roach and ling hydra all-ins are common. Speedling expand with high aggression is also popular. Both of these will cause tons of damage even with a void ray in the air. The void used to be a floating god once charged, this is no longer the case.
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For people interested in contemporary Void Ray based expands watch MC's games at MLG.
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and all i have to say is anypro did it first but all good
On August 04 2010 12:26 Antimage wrote:PvZ - Antimage's Void Ray Expo BuildDisclaimer:This guide is not 100% complete. I rushed it out but I will continue to address concerns and mid/late game transitions if they are unclear later on, but a lot of people wanted to see it so here it goes... ********************************************************* With zerg players like Sheth, SLush, and Idra leading the way, the imbalance in PvZ has begun to stand out. Surprise 6 gate into 2 robo colossi builds put you too behind economically to be effective against anyone competent. 2 gate or 3 gate robo gives up map control and against a good flanking zerg army, you stand no chance. Playing any of those above builds straight up against a top notch zerg will put him too ahead in army count in worker count, and this build is to balance it out (and give Protoss an edge). The difference between this and any comparatively ineffective 2 gate robo or 3 gate expand builds (which I adopted back in beta), is that you force hydras because roaches melt under 2-4 void rays. Thus, your colossi will be doubly effective, your expo is out faster so you have 4 geysers to tech switch if you find it necessary. Side note:I call this my Void Ray Expo build, but it’s also kind of a 1-1-1, but you’ll have to adjust your transitions to what you see. You can always get your robo before your second and third gates if you see zerg playing standard macro style, but that’s not a guarantee.
Begin: Antimage's Void Ray Expo BuildThis build is designed to put you on even footing against a fast expanding zerg player. Just like Sheth intends to make mini-Sheths with his infamous ZvP thread, so I will make mini-Antimages to combat those mini-Sheths. Details:Step 1: Choose protoss. Hate on opponent for choosing imba zerg. Nah I kid. ... 1 gate-core opening, blocking ramp with gate and core. You'll need two units to fully block it, but it is infinitely safer than blocking with pylons (banelings anyone?), if anyone still does that. Get your second gas as soon as you can, at around when your core is about 200 HP up. If you don't scout a fast expo and see 2 gases or anything strange (roach warren, etc, baneling nest), then this build is probably not the best one to go for. Usually, you should be able to put your second gas up before starting your zealot (which may or may not even need a chrono depending on how many lings initially pop out). This build is designed to counter Idra type play - which means whoring drones like the dirty zergs they are. A basic rule of thumb in PvZ: against a regular zerg macro build, you can afford to make your core and then your first zealot, without even chrono'ing it. It'll be out in time, and you can chrono a second zealot (or stalker if you have time to block with it) if they went gas/pool/hatch in which case there's a threat of mass speedlings, so your block has to hold. Got your gas stolen? Don’t worry about it, just kill it and get your stargate anyway. You will need to add 1 or 2 gates before your robo since you won’t have enough gas to sustain it after your first few void rays. Once your core is done and you have a stalker building (to try to deny scouting/complete your wall), begin your stargate off two gases. Doesn't matter if the zerg sees it with an overlord. The point here is to force more queens off the two zerg bases. He sees it coming! Doesn’t matter if you know it’s coming bro. =) Once your first void ray is out (chrono'ed - you don't need to chrono warp gate tech), send it to the zerg base and rally your stargate to that unit. This opening forces spores if they drone too much. Further delaying their tech. Also note that here that SLush is in the red supply. At the same time, move out with your 3-4 zealots and 1 stalker and claim your natural. Expand with your next 400, all the while continuing to pump void rays non-stop. With your void rays, try to inflict as much damage as possible. Snipe off overlords, extractors, whatever you can lay your dirty protoss hands on. I prefer to go for the overlords - they go down faster and delay the hydra counter effectively with a smaller risk of dying to queens. In this case, when they mass more lings, you want to add more gates before your colossus to defend your expo. Your void rays should see the lings. Your next tech choice depends on what you see with your void rays. If there are signs that they teched faster to lair than normally, make 2 more gates and a robo, cutting probes if you're worried. Once you robotics facility finishes, get your support bay and chrono out colossi ASAP. If however you spot or suspect mutas (both natural geysers are taken), add on 2 more gateways and go heavier on stalkers/sentries, while getting +1 – cut some probes to get up to 5-6 gates so you can further outmuscle the fragile muta army. From here on out, it's a regular macro game. Information received! If you’re colo is late, add a forge and a few more gates immediately! Defending that initial push once they feel they have enough hydras. If you feel you can’t defend adequately, get a forge up with your gates/robo and cannon up a little. The zerg player may choose to expo again. However, your void rays should take care of that. Note the minimap, how all close bases are scouted with the void rays. Deny more expos with your void rays. It’ll be 2 base against 2 base on a map like metal. Another expo deny. Note the huge differential in worker count. Once your colossi numbers start building up, up your gateway count. You’ll need it for late game if the game draws out. Start with stalker/sentry to deal with anything that isn’t ultras. Ahh, the beauty of the void ray/colossus/stalker/sentry ball. Force field makes it impossible for a ground army to be able to position well at the same time the air units hit. They won’t get good army positioning against you. Yes, it beats a maxed out army if the zerg players decides to go mutas. Just sit tight, and float around the middle so their mutas can’t roam free without the threat of a backstab into their base. End game: Looks a bit barren, doesn’t it? This is what happens when zerg tries to tech to ultras. They can’t defend their 3rd expo in time once you have 3 or 4 colossi out. Ultras may work pretty well against this strategy but once you already have a huge econ advantage and many gates, you can switch it up and go heavier on zealots and high temp. Weaknesses:Timing pushes with fast hydras will really push your defenses. If you suspect this coming, you might even want to consider sentries/cannons to buy yourself some time. Mutas will keep you in your base longer as your ground army is weaker, but once you add more gates, you'll be able to abuse sentry/stalker/guardian shield/ground upgrades and you'll be ahead again in no time. Mass ling is also a great threat if you do not scout it properly. If you see mass ling coming, prepare acordingly with heavy zealots. Once your colossus is out, with good enough force fields, you're gold. Worker counts: Vs machine, after the hydra counter is repelled (up 2) Vs masterasia, after the hydra counter is repelled (up 8) Huge worker count differential when opponent fails to do damage with mass speedlings (up 13) Large worker differential while zerg tries (but fails to) put up a third after failing the hydra push (up 13) Author’s note:My laptop died so I can't really play SC2 anymore; it starts up properly maybe 10% of the time - I'll be playing on a friend's laptop in the meanwhile. Please see my blog for more details and how you can help! Click here!Replays here[url blocked]
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On June 15 2011 15:04 ZeRoMist wrote:and all i have to say is anypro did it first but all good Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 12:26 Antimage wrote:PvZ - Antimage's Void Ray Expo BuildDisclaimer:This guide is not 100% complete. I rushed it out but I will continue to address concerns and mid/late game transitions if they are unclear later on, but a lot of people wanted to see it so here it goes... ********************************************************* With zerg players like Sheth, SLush, and Idra leading the way, the imbalance in PvZ has begun to stand out. Surprise 6 gate into 2 robo colossi builds put you too behind economically to be effective against anyone competent. 2 gate or 3 gate robo gives up map control and against a good flanking zerg army, you stand no chance. Playing any of those above builds straight up against a top notch zerg will put him too ahead in army count in worker count, and this build is to balance it out (and give Protoss an edge). The difference between this and any comparatively ineffective 2 gate robo or 3 gate expand builds (which I adopted back in beta), is that you force hydras because roaches melt under 2-4 void rays. Thus, your colossi will be doubly effective, your expo is out faster so you have 4 geysers to tech switch if you find it necessary. Side note:I call this my Void Ray Expo build, but it’s also kind of a 1-1-1, but you’ll have to adjust your transitions to what you see. You can always get your robo before your second and third gates if you see zerg playing standard macro style, but that’s not a guarantee.
Begin: Antimage's Void Ray Expo BuildThis build is designed to put you on even footing against a fast expanding zerg player. Just like Sheth intends to make mini-Sheths with his infamous ZvP thread, so I will make mini-Antimages to combat those mini-Sheths. Details:Step 1: Choose protoss. Hate on opponent for choosing imba zerg. Nah I kid. ... 1 gate-core opening, blocking ramp with gate and core. You'll need two units to fully block it, but it is infinitely safer than blocking with pylons (banelings anyone?), if anyone still does that. Get your second gas as soon as you can, at around when your core is about 200 HP up. If you don't scout a fast expo and see 2 gases or anything strange (roach warren, etc, baneling nest), then this build is probably not the best one to go for. Usually, you should be able to put your second gas up before starting your zealot (which may or may not even need a chrono depending on how many lings initially pop out). This build is designed to counter Idra type play - which means whoring drones like the dirty zergs they are. A basic rule of thumb in PvZ: against a regular zerg macro build, you can afford to make your core and then your first zealot, without even chrono'ing it. It'll be out in time, and you can chrono a second zealot (or stalker if you have time to block with it) if they went gas/pool/hatch in which case there's a threat of mass speedlings, so your block has to hold. Got your gas stolen? Don’t worry about it, just kill it and get your stargate anyway. You will need to add 1 or 2 gates before your robo since you won’t have enough gas to sustain it after your first few void rays. Once your core is done and you have a stalker building (to try to deny scouting/complete your wall), begin your stargate off two gases. Doesn't matter if the zerg sees it with an overlord. The point here is to force more queens off the two zerg bases. He sees it coming! Doesn’t matter if you know it’s coming bro. =) Once your first void ray is out (chrono'ed - you don't need to chrono warp gate tech), send it to the zerg base and rally your stargate to that unit. This opening forces spores if they drone too much. Further delaying their tech. Also note that here that SLush is in the red supply. At the same time, move out with your 3-4 zealots and 1 stalker and claim your natural. Expand with your next 400, all the while continuing to pump void rays non-stop. With your void rays, try to inflict as much damage as possible. Snipe off overlords, extractors, whatever you can lay your dirty protoss hands on. I prefer to go for the overlords - they go down faster and delay the hydra counter effectively with a smaller risk of dying to queens. In this case, when they mass more lings, you want to add more gates before your colossus to defend your expo. Your void rays should see the lings. Your next tech choice depends on what you see with your void rays. If there are signs that they teched faster to lair than normally, make 2 more gates and a robo, cutting probes if you're worried. Once you robotics facility finishes, get your support bay and chrono out colossi ASAP. If however you spot or suspect mutas (both natural geysers are taken), add on 2 more gateways and go heavier on stalkers/sentries, while getting +1 – cut some probes to get up to 5-6 gates so you can further outmuscle the fragile muta army. From here on out, it's a regular macro game. Information received! If you’re colo is late, add a forge and a few more gates immediately! Defending that initial push once they feel they have enough hydras. If you feel you can’t defend adequately, get a forge up with your gates/robo and cannon up a little. The zerg player may choose to expo again. However, your void rays should take care of that. Note the minimap, how all close bases are scouted with the void rays. Deny more expos with your void rays. It’ll be 2 base against 2 base on a map like metal. Another expo deny. Note the huge differential in worker count. Once your colossi numbers start building up, up your gateway count. You’ll need it for late game if the game draws out. Start with stalker/sentry to deal with anything that isn’t ultras. Ahh, the beauty of the void ray/colossus/stalker/sentry ball. Force field makes it impossible for a ground army to be able to position well at the same time the air units hit. They won’t get good army positioning against you. Yes, it beats a maxed out army if the zerg players decides to go mutas. Just sit tight, and float around the middle so their mutas can’t roam free without the threat of a backstab into their base. End game: Looks a bit barren, doesn’t it? This is what happens when zerg tries to tech to ultras. They can’t defend their 3rd expo in time once you have 3 or 4 colossi out. Ultras may work pretty well against this strategy but once you already have a huge econ advantage and many gates, you can switch it up and go heavier on zealots and high temp. Weaknesses:Timing pushes with fast hydras will really push your defenses. If you suspect this coming, you might even want to consider sentries/cannons to buy yourself some time. Mutas will keep you in your base longer as your ground army is weaker, but once you add more gates, you'll be able to abuse sentry/stalker/guardian shield/ground upgrades and you'll be ahead again in no time. Mass ling is also a great threat if you do not scout it properly. If you see mass ling coming, prepare acordingly with heavy zealots. Once your colossus is out, with good enough force fields, you're gold. Worker counts: Vs machine, after the hydra counter is repelled (up 2) Vs masterasia, after the hydra counter is repelled (up 8) Huge worker count differential when opponent fails to do damage with mass speedlings (up 13) Large worker differential while zerg tries (but fails to) put up a third after failing the hydra push (up 13) Author’s note:My laptop died so I can't really play SC2 anymore; it starts up properly maybe 10% of the time - I'll be playing on a friend's laptop in the meanwhile. Please see my blog for more details and how you can help! Click here!Replays here[url blocked]
He wrote this in the beginning of August. Are you really going to make that argument right now?
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zero why would you quote the whole freaking guide, and then just say one sentence?
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cuz i can
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
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and that, ladies n gents, is the failest troll to ever disgrace the TL forums.
aye this build is "dead" but it gave a cascading effect to the new Stargate based builds against zerg, i.e: oGsMC vs every zerg at mlg c-bus.
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United Arab Emirates660 Posts
This build isn't dead =/ i still use it around 1500 masters from time to time and it works great if you know how to transition/improvise well thank you Antimage!
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Yesterday i died to that in a 1400 Master League game. This is definitely not dead, it is quite strong.
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MC style with sentries first into later stargate is much better now. Not using sentries in PvZ is just impossible nowadays imo
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A 1 gate expo into 3 gate stargate off 2 bases with a semi-wall-off at your natural is a much safer version of this build.
The concept is the same, but the faster sentry along with the slower warpgate time makes it much more appropriate to get zealot/stalker/sentry/sentry first (off 1 gas), then getting nexus/gate/gate, then adding a stargate to match zerg expo timings.
I haven't explored the exact timing, but something like that should put you safely through the early game on most maps.
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~1200 master protoss here, i had absolutely no succes with this build tonight described in the first post, they just make around 15-20 lings and they can delay your expo for so much time that the voidray doesnt make up for the time lost... also if you make 2 voids in a row you'r extra gateways will be so delayed cuz they cost 250minerals each QQ.
gonna watch more replays now and see if i can improve....
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On June 16 2011 08:38 Regina wrote:
~1200 master protoss here, i had absolutely no succes with this build tonight described in the first post, they just make around 15-20 lings and they can delay your expo for so much time that the voidray doesnt make up for the time lost... also if you make 2 voids in a row you'r extra gateways will be so delayed cuz they cost 250minerals each QQ.
gonna watch more replays now and see if i can improve....
What did you expect with a build from a week after the game's release? See MC and Ace for good stargate builds nowadays.
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What about if the Zerg does something similar to what Mondragon did in TSL3? The Protoss opened air and mondragon just got spores and i think like 4 hydras for base defense. He got to 3 bases and I think got overlord drop and went mass roach.
It was really interesting because he wasn't trying to counter the units in the protoss army, but he was taking advantage of the position the protoss was in.
Edit: XD didn't realize how old this thread was.
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