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United States8477 Posts
On September 20 2011 02:07 fishjie wrote:
Thank you very much for this! I always feel lost and clueless whenever I play, because in addition to not being able to play very often, I'm also not sure what I should do, so this helps a great deal. When you have a chance, can you edit the OP with links to some replays or VODs?
Yea, that's planned. =P
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Thanks mate! Just switched from zerg to protoss. Just what i needed! :D
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On September 20 2011 02:18 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting. NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand.
Yeah, I haven't been active with SC2 for at least 6 months. I was thinking about picking it up again and discovered (1) that I'm awful now, and (2) that all of my timings for the builds I used to use are screwed up with the WG time change.
I'd really like a comprehensive guide for FFE vs Z. I don't know the map pool anymore. I know how to scout just before speed finishes, but I don't know the decision tree about what to do with that information. I can't find a decent guide beyond Anihc's old 15 Nexus guide. Also, do people 1 gate expand vs Z now?
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United States8477 Posts
On September 20 2011 02:49 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:18 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting. NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand. Yeah, I haven't been active with SC2 for at least 6 months. I was thinking about picking it up again and discovered (1) that I'm awful now, and (2) that all of my timings for the builds I used to use are screwed up with the WG time change. I'd really like a comprehensive guide for FFE vs Z. I don't know the map pool anymore. I know how to scout just before speed finishes, but I don't know the decision tree about what to do with that information. I can't find a decent guide beyond Anihc's old 15 Nexus guide. Also, do people 1 gate expand vs Z now?
Yea, there's no decent general guide for forge fe that I know of. Maybe I'll do a simple one sometime. Also, people do 1 gate expand vs Zerg now, but it's not in this guide, because it requires a bit more skill.
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On September 20 2011 02:55 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:49 kcdc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:18 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting. NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand. Yeah, I haven't been active with SC2 for at least 6 months. I was thinking about picking it up again and discovered (1) that I'm awful now, and (2) that all of my timings for the builds I used to use are screwed up with the WG time change. I'd really like a comprehensive guide for FFE vs Z. I don't know the map pool anymore. I know how to scout just before speed finishes, but I don't know the decision tree about what to do with that information. I can't find a decent guide beyond Anihc's old 15 Nexus guide. Also, do people 1 gate expand vs Z now? Yea, there's no decent general guide for forge fe that I know of. Maybe I'll do a simple one sometime. Also, people do 1 gate expand vs Zerg now, but it's not in this guide, because it requires a bit more skill.
General layout--what do you do? Gate-nexus-forge? Gate-core-nexus? Is it only for hatch first? I used to experiment with ways to expand off of 1 gate vs Z, but didn't find anything that worked consistently.
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i used to effortlessly beat any kind of 1 base stargate by just flooding lings with no lair and no drones, and attack just after natural nexus is finished. The only progame i recall where something like this happened was a idra vs kiwikaki game where idra won despite having made roaches.
imo any kind of low-unit build only works on maps where you'd prefer to ffe. But i haven't played in a month or so.
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Italy12247 Posts
On September 20 2011 03:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:55 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:49 kcdc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:18 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting. NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand. Yeah, I haven't been active with SC2 for at least 6 months. I was thinking about picking it up again and discovered (1) that I'm awful now, and (2) that all of my timings for the builds I used to use are screwed up with the WG time change. I'd really like a comprehensive guide for FFE vs Z. I don't know the map pool anymore. I know how to scout just before speed finishes, but I don't know the decision tree about what to do with that information. I can't find a decent guide beyond Anihc's old 15 Nexus guide. Also, do people 1 gate expand vs Z now? Yea, there's no decent general guide for forge fe that I know of. Maybe I'll do a simple one sometime. Also, people do 1 gate expand vs Zerg now, but it's not in this guide, because it requires a bit more skill. General layout--what do you do? Gate-nexus-forge? Gate-core-nexus? Is it only for hatch first? I used to experiment with ways to expand off of 1 gate vs Z, but didn't find anything that worked consistently.
Gate-cyber-nexus, then 2 more gates to simcity your natural against roach/ling aggression mostly.
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On September 20 2011 03:14 kcdc wrote:
General layout--what do you do? Gate-nexus-forge? Gate-core-nexus? Is it only for hatch first? I used to experiment with ways to expand off of 1 gate vs Z, but didn't find anything that worked consistently.
I believe you cut the zealot and go stalker->sentry->sentry in some variations. Usually 1 gate is done against either a hatch first, or a fairly late gas build. So it would be something like
gate->core->zealot/stalker->sentry->sentry pylon on low ground->nexus->gate->gate/forge etc.
Could be wrong, so someone correct me.
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On September 20 2011 03:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 02:55 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:49 kcdc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:18 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting. NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand. Yeah, I haven't been active with SC2 for at least 6 months. I was thinking about picking it up again and discovered (1) that I'm awful now, and (2) that all of my timings for the builds I used to use are screwed up with the WG time change. I'd really like a comprehensive guide for FFE vs Z. I don't know the map pool anymore. I know how to scout just before speed finishes, but I don't know the decision tree about what to do with that information. I can't find a decent guide beyond Anihc's old 15 Nexus guide. Also, do people 1 gate expand vs Z now? Yea, there's no decent general guide for forge fe that I know of. Maybe I'll do a simple one sometime. Also, people do 1 gate expand vs Zerg now, but it's not in this guide, because it requires a bit more skill. General layout--what do you do? Gate-nexus-forge? Gate-core-nexus? Is it only for hatch first? I used to experiment with ways to expand off of 1 gate vs Z, but didn't find anything that worked consistently.
I one gate FE quite regularly, maybe I'll write a guide after 1.4 hits (I once worked on a guide, then a patch made it useless [voidray expand build that somewhat faked a voidray all-in PvT]).
Generally I don't use it vs gas/pool, as mass speedlings are hard to stop. Not game over, still an unnecessary risk. I follow a simple, but imo quite awsome chrono-boost-usage I've picked up from Hwangsin and Nightend's stream. Basicly you put your nexus down when normally you would put down the 2 additional gates for 3 gate expo. Afterwards the 2nd and 3rd gate. Nevertheless, since the gates are later, from this point on you chrono-boost your gate instead of wg-tech (no need for wg finishing before 2nd and 3rd gate). With the reduced sentry-buildtime, you can get a ton of sentries out of your single gate if you execute properly. Definitely enough to deal with any shenanigans that is not mass-speedlings after a speedling expand opening.
Furthermore, depending on your scouting-intel, you are free to deviate as you please. For instance, if zerg doesn't take gas for ages, I sometimes go one gate expo straight stargate.
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Allow me to disagree with 3 gate expand being a valid PvZ opener.
Toss will be behind economically throughout the entire game, unless there is some gimmick/cheesy followup. The last warpgate nerf (which ironically was a PvP directed nerf) killed this build completely.
Forge expand is the only option if Toss wants to economically match a fast expanding zerg and apply mid-game pressure. Forge FE is also viable in maps like Shattered and Metalopolis with precise building placement and the mandatory extra cannon.
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Italy12247 Posts
On September 20 2011 03:29 kasumimi wrote:
Allow me to disagree with 3 gate expand being a valid PvZ opener.
Toss will be behind economically throughout the entire game, unless there is some gimmick/cheesy followup. The last warpgate nerf (which ironically was a PvP directed nerf) killed this build completely.
Forge expand is the only option if Toss wants to economically match a fast expanding zerg and apply mid-game pressure. Forge FE is also viable in maps like Shattered and Metalopolis with precise building placement and the mandatory extra cannon.
3gate expand is reasonable as a lower level/starter opening. Sure it has its issues, but it's a good place to start, just like any sentry expand variation in pvz. On the other hand FFE requires better gamesense and scouting because the resposnes to allins and macro play are really different. But then again, i dont like ffe in general 
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I like the idea of a one Gate, Forge, expand as a middle way between the extremes of FFE and 3-gate expand.
Thanks for the guide by the way :D
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Is 2gate robo really safe vs Terran? I thought the consensus was that it auto-lost to a well-executed 1-1-1 because you don't have enough eco to overpower his mules when it hits?
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United States8477 Posts
On September 24 2011 09:56 Belisarius wrote:
Is 2gate robo really safe vs Terran? I thought the consensus was that it auto-lost to a well-executed 1-1-1 because you don't have enough eco to overpower his mules when it hits?
This is tricky, and there's different schools of thought on it, but you shouldn't have to deal with well executed 1-1-1 builds if you're looking at this guide. In my opinion, 2 gate robo can hold off 1-1-1, but you have to play perfectly without any mistakes. If you're looking for encouragement, Slayers_Puzzle and IMYounghwa almost exclusive use 2 gate robo in their PvT's.
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It's too early to say for certain, but I'm nearly convinced that 2gas 1gate robo obs expand is a legit opening vs terran. Make an immortal before your observer if the terran 2raxes you and you'll be fine vs the push + be able to expo a little later.
Idea is that you delay warp (a lot) in favor of really fast scouting + plenty of immortals, which not only keep you safe vs most things but also can seriously put the hurt on terrans who expand. Check the Hister thread, read my posts and you'll see what I mean. He does a 1 base attack, but i'm pretty sure you can sneak in the expo and hit just as hard + be way more flexible.
note: if you scout no gas you can't do this unless you're sure it's not rine/scv allin
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What about early cheeses like 3 rax or 7 RR? ( i know how to scout 7 RR, no idea how to scout 3rax tho). I used to open 3 gate robo just to be safe from early shaningans.
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One of the problem of a 2gate robo was that it set you up behind if the terran opens eco. But with the immortal buff I think you can apply some decent pressure off of it (with 1-2 immortals, zealots and sentries).
Look up how Puzzle executes his 2gate robo, I think he takes his expand before 6 minutes (didn't save him from being annihilated by Bomber though ;D)
As for a 2gate robo holding a 1-1-1, I don't know. Fast expands with 3-4 gates and a robo seem to be able to defend a decently executed 1-1-1 (Tails vs MVP), but probably still are quite risky against rax based pressure.
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On September 25 2011 18:42 blanks.yuC wrote:
What about early cheeses like 3 rax or 7 RR? ( i know how to scout 7 RR, no idea how to scout 3rax tho). I used to open 3 gate robo just to be safe from early shaningans.
Assuming you're asking me:
3rax I haven't tested against but you should be able to scout it before you make a nexus and if not, you can for sure cancel the nexus when your observer spots his play. There's zero chance he can take your ramp but tbh I don't know how it pans out after that. presumably he'll get a nice concave contain on your ramp, I don't know if you can break it but I'd guess either 1 base colossus or +1 armor immortals are your best shot.
I don't think 7RR is beatable in PvT unfortunately, probably someone should complain about another imba build on the blizzard forums.
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On September 20 2011 03:28 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 03:14 kcdc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:55 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:49 kcdc wrote:On September 20 2011 02:18 4kmonk wrote:On September 20 2011 02:11 kcdc wrote:
Thanks for the link. Surprised to see my thread still relevant a year+ after posting. NP, dear. I don't think your exact build is used much anymore, but the concepts are still the same and imo your thread is still the best source for a standard 1 gate expand. Yeah, I haven't been active with SC2 for at least 6 months. I was thinking about picking it up again and discovered (1) that I'm awful now, and (2) that all of my timings for the builds I used to use are screwed up with the WG time change. I'd really like a comprehensive guide for FFE vs Z. I don't know the map pool anymore. I know how to scout just before speed finishes, but I don't know the decision tree about what to do with that information. I can't find a decent guide beyond Anihc's old 15 Nexus guide. Also, do people 1 gate expand vs Z now? Yea, there's no decent general guide for forge fe that I know of. Maybe I'll do a simple one sometime. Also, people do 1 gate expand vs Zerg now, but it's not in this guide, because it requires a bit more skill. General layout--what do you do? Gate-nexus-forge? Gate-core-nexus? Is it only for hatch first? I used to experiment with ways to expand off of 1 gate vs Z, but didn't find anything that worked consistently. I one gate FE quite regularly, maybe I'll write a guide after 1.4 hits (I once worked on a guide, then a patch made it useless [voidray expand build that somewhat faked a voidray all-in PvT]). Generally I don't use it vs gas/pool, as mass speedlings are hard to stop. Not game over, still an unnecessary risk. I follow a simple, but imo quite awsome chrono-boost-usage I've picked up from Hwangsin and Nightend's stream. Basicly you put your nexus down when normally you would put down the 2 additional gates for 3 gate expo. Afterwards the 2nd and 3rd gate. Nevertheless, since the gates are later, from this point on you chrono-boost your gate instead of wg-tech (no need for wg finishing before 2nd and 3rd gate). With the reduced sentry-buildtime, you can get a ton of sentries out of your single gate if you execute properly. Definitely enough to deal with any shenanigans that is not mass-speedlings after a speedling expand opening. Furthermore, depending on your scouting-intel, you are free to deviate as you please. For instance, if zerg doesn't take gas for ages, I sometimes go one gate expo straight stargate.
This is a very useful post...thanks! I've been wanting to try 1 Gate FE for awhile.
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On September 25 2011 12:09 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 09:56 Belisarius wrote:
Is 2gate robo really safe vs Terran? I thought the consensus was that it auto-lost to a well-executed 1-1-1 because you don't have enough eco to overpower his mules when it hits? This is tricky, and there's different schools of thought on it, but you shouldn't have to deal with well executed 1-1-1 builds if you're looking at this guide. In my opinion, 2 gate robo can hold off 1-1-1, but you have to play perfectly without any mistakes. If you're looking for encouragement, Slayers_Puzzle and IMYounghwa almost exclusive use 2 gate robo in their PvT's.
Thanks, I appreciate the response.
Though I do feel like it's a little misleading to say lower level players won't face perfect 1-1-1s, but then say we need to play perfectly to hold it; if I could defend perfectly, I probably wouldn't still be lower level. But fair enough. If it's good enough for Puzzle it's good enough for diamond. Nice to know it's not considered a straight-up BO loss.
New question... how different is PvP post-patch? Do we still need to do conservative almost-4gate builds like Gieko's, or can we get away with things like 2gr or even gate-robo-gate now he can't warp over forcefields?
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EPT
