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[G] ZvT - Get Curious: A Killer Nydus Timing

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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usNEUX
Profile Joined March 2012
United States76 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-22 20:16:29
October 26 2012 05:56 GMT
#1
[G] ZvT - Get Curious: A Killer Nydus Timing
Inspired by Curious' Roach/Queen Nydus timing in the GSL (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Base_Nydus_%28vs._Terran%29)

[image loading]

Greeting TL forum-goers! I'm a low Masters player on NA and I'm hoping to give back to the community by consolidating my notes and recent ladder experience into a guide that I hope will add a deadly tool to your ZvT play. Credit where credit is due: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370945 is where I first read about this build, but was disappointed by the lack of a real thought of build order in the replay and didn't feel like the gas timings in the Liquipedia entry. As a result, I spent a while experimenting on the ladder with different variations until I arrived at one that felt fairly smooth and has performed consistently!

This build is designed to mercilessly destroy any 1 Rax FE into MVP-style Hellion/Banshee play. It is a simple build-order win. It will also beat any mass Hellion, early mech openers, while being VERY strong against greedy bio. The only case in which you may not deal enough damage is against a player making significant numbers of marauders or rushing siege mode. Since both of these are in the minority of what you tend to see on ladder, you will pretty much always be ahead after this attack if he hasn't GG'd out yet.


The Build
+ Show Spoiler +
15 Hatchery
16 Pool
17 OV
@100% Pool - 4 Lings, 2 Queens
25 OV
@100% Queens, 2 more Queens
33 OV
@5 Minutes - 3 Extractors
40 OV
@100 Gas - Lair
@100 Gas - Ling Speed
41 Drones (16 on minerals at each base, 9 total on gas) + 10 supply from Queens and Lings means you stop making drones at 51 supply
@48/80 Lair, Roach Warren
4 OVs
@100% Lair, Nydus, 2 more Queens, Overseer
Baneling nest if 1/1/1 formation is not scouted.
@100% Roach Warren, however many roaches you feel is appropriate! I generally like to get 10.
Nydus in or near his base by around 8:30 and either rally more units or transition.


Execution
+ Show Spoiler +

Phase 1 - As you can see, the basics of this build are, well, basic. You open standard and are able to get your 3rd and 4th Queens up faster and get better mineral saturation due to your delayed gas (compared to Curious' build). This has the added benefit of keeping your gas hidden from the Terran who will normally see any gas made before 20ish supply and assume something fishy is coming. In this case, he'd be right and we would rather he didn't have all that time to make marauders and bunkers.

Most of my focus in refining this build came down the gas timings. It's fairly basic math: you need 800 gas by the 8:30 mark in order to get Lair, Ling Speed, Nydus, an Overseer, 10 Roaches, and an exit worm. At the rate of 100 gas per extractor we can backwards plan from that point to see that 3 extractors popping at 5:30 will generate 900 gas our timing if played perfectly. This 100 gas buffer from our requirement and perfect play allows for a little wiggle room as well as for adapting to what we scout.

One of the most crucial points in this build comes when your Overseer pops. If you scout heavy bio then you must immediately drop a Baneling nest and start making Lings instead of roaches. If you can confirm this by scouting earlier with Lings then you can go with only 8 roaches or so instead and have Banelings ready for your initial attack. In addition to confirming your opponents tech, your Overseer also serves to scout for potential dead space in themain for a Nydus as well as to detect cloaked Banshees. You should have at least 2 OVs by the Terran's base at this point so you can make a second if for some reason you lose the first.

Phase 2
Now for the actual attack!

At this point in the game you should have 10+ Roaches, 6 Queens (4 of whom are coming for the ride), and x number of ling/bling as the situation dictates. Make sure your roaches are front-loaded in the Nydus as you want them emerging first.

Ideally you will get your Nydus in your opponent's main. Some maps are much easier than others (Antiga, TDA, Daybreak, Shakuras, Condemned Ridge, Cloud Kingdom, Entombed all have great corners that can be abused). It really just comes down to the individual game. Luckily this build is almost as strong when you Nydus near the front and you can almost always pop another Nydus in the main while you bust the front.

As your emerges rally out of the Nydus, immediately drop a creep tumor with the first queen that you can. This will improve your maneuverability immensely as the creep rapidly spreads as well as be a general annoyance for the Terran. Getting 3-4 Banelings as quickly as possible will assure that SCV pulls are disastrous and really help your roaches against marine/marauder balls.

If you feel you can press the game to a close right here, simply rally Roaches/Lings to your Nydus and kill him. Otherwise it's time for...

It's also important to note here that many players will, upon seeing your Roaches and acknowledging that Hellions were a bad choice today, send those Hellions to your base to roast lings. Letting the Terran do this is pretty much the only way to make this attack 100% all-in. 3-4 Roaches rallied to your base instead of the Nydus will let you kill these as well as block your main ramp if necessary. Be careful!

Phase 3
...the transition.

Here's what the situation should look like if your push is cleaned up: you have 41 Drones on 2 bases, Lair tech, and a pile of gas starting to build up. Your opponent is behind in econ and even at best in tech and you don't have to worry about him pushing out anytime soon.

Take a 3rd, drop double Evos for melee upgrades, and get your Infestors out. Depending on how much damage you did you may even feel safe to double expand, else you will probably want a macro Hatch. From this point on simply do whatever you do best and deny the Terran's 3rd as long as possible.

A lot of this can be concurrent to your attack. As you will be able to tell from my replays, I tend to float far more resources than I should be as I micro my attack when those resources could have immediately gone towards tech and drones. Still workin' on them mechanics!


The TLDR summary: 10 roach, 4 queen, lings as needed hit around 8:45 via Nydus following 3 gas at 5 mins and set you up to either take a 3rd while setting the Terran behind or go all-in and finish him off.

Replays

+ Show Spoiler +

http://drop.sc/277848 Last game I played with this style that I thought I executed well.
http://drop.sc/267605 - An example of the build vs. AI.
http://drop.sc/267968 - My attack does a ton of damage but doesn't kill him.
http://drop.sc/267596 - Alternate build by MLtLykhan where he takes a 3rd before attacking and you can see the Nydus out front.
http://drop.sc/267595
I will add more as I get more, my replays are rather unorganized and some didn't get saved so this is it for now.
As you can see I could definitely play better but it doesn't even really matter.


Hope you enjoyed this guide and get some use out of it when you're tilting on the ladder or in a BoX! I would also appreciate any feedback regarding the guide itself in addition to the build as this is the first time I have written one.

-usNEUX
Unter allem Diebesgesindel sind die Narren die schlimmsten. Sie rauben euch beides, Zeit und Stimmung. - Goethe. NEVER GIVE UP NEVER SURRENDER.
Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
October 26 2012 06:58 GMT
#2
i tried this all in and without build order it was some times to late... so thanks for your work, its very helpful !
Sumahi
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Guam5609 Posts
October 26 2012 07:11 GMT
#3
I remember that game from Curious. It was awesome, especially the reactions from Tasteless and Artosis.
Startale <3, ST_July <3, HongUn <3, Savior <3, Gretorp <3, Nada <3, Rainbow <3, Ret <3, Squirtle <3, Bomber <3
Mahtasooma
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany475 Posts
October 26 2012 07:44 GMT
#4
Do you happen to have the original gsl link to the game of curious?
http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma
porygon361
Profile Joined August 2012
81 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-26 07:50:33
October 26 2012 07:48 GMT
#5
You can prevent Hellions from coming into your base by building an Evo Chamber + Spine wall. Check it out.

[image loading]

In fact, the Evo Chambers can also help you go to phase 3.
"Sometimes life is like this dark tunnel. You can't always see the light at the end of the tunnel. But if you just keep moving, you will come to a better place."
GodOfWarAReS
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Germany105 Posts
October 26 2012 07:51 GMT
#6
come on srsly? ... curious prepared something against a special opponent... this is only important if your going up against one of the strongest players in the world.
CapnAmerica
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States508 Posts
October 26 2012 07:59 GMT
#7
On October 26 2012 16:51 GodOfWarAReS wrote:
come on srsly? ... curious prepared something against a special opponent... this is only important if your going up against one of the strongest players in the world.


This is an incredibly strong build against Hellion/Banshee openers that can do large amounts of damage and is difficult to deny. How is that irrelevant?
After all this time, I still haven't figured out the correlation between sexual orientation and beating an unprepared opponent. Are homosexuals the next koreans? Many players seem to think it's an unfair advantage. - pandaburn
porygon361
Profile Joined August 2012
81 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-26 08:12:25
October 26 2012 08:08 GMT
#8
On October 26 2012 16:51 GodOfWarAReS wrote:
come on srsly? ... curious prepared something against a special opponent... this is only important if your going up against one of the strongest players in the world.


Technically, this isn't Curious' build, it's the OP's. The OP simply drew key elements from Curious' build and formed his own. Curious' build was obviously a one-time-only build.
"Sometimes life is like this dark tunnel. You can't always see the light at the end of the tunnel. But if you just keep moving, you will come to a better place."
aka_star
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United Kingdom1546 Posts
October 26 2012 08:49 GMT
#9
A suggestion, you can swap out the nydus and replace in overlord drop and speed if you want to try to salvage the game. Yes its a little slower but you get pickup micro against units and can assault tanks, There is far more utility in it so depending how you want to play.
FlashDave.999 aka Star
besez
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden54 Posts
October 26 2012 09:21 GMT
#10
This seems very cool. Will try this in platinum league tonight ^^
haypro fighting
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
October 26 2012 19:13 GMT
#11
Cool build and nice write-up
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Siwelcela
Profile Joined November 2011
United States87 Posts
October 26 2012 20:19 GMT
#12
Was just going to suggest in order to improve this build as you already suggested having a queen drop a tumor to prebuild 2-4 spines and load them in as static defense to make this ridiculously strong. As the creep tumor pops the creep will spread even more and you can continue to push into the terran with your spines and reinforcing army.
pokes & fun
orBitual
Profile Joined January 2011
United States96 Posts
October 26 2012 20:29 GMT
#13
can't load buildings into a nydus
Siwelcela
Profile Joined November 2011
United States87 Posts
October 26 2012 20:51 GMT
#14
On October 27 2012 05:29 orBitual wrote:
can't load buildings into a nydus


can someone confirm or deny this cause I swore I saw this on tlos stream forever ago. But if you can't would still be awesome to bring drones to build them
pokes & fun
MstrJinbo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1251 Posts
October 26 2012 20:54 GMT
#15
On October 26 2012 17:49 aka_star wrote:
A suggestion, you can swap out the nydus and replace in overlord drop and speed if you want to try to salvage the game. Yes its a little slower but you get pickup micro against units and can assault tanks, There is far more utility in it so depending how you want to play.


Waiting for drop is a rather significant delay. This Attack is really strong because the Terran only has hellions, banshees and a small number of marines at that time. Roaches can deal with the marines and hellions and queens kill the banshees.

I've done similar stuff, mostly on maps like shakkuras where I don't particularly want to play a long zvt game. I can't imagine terrans holding it off without losing a ton of scvs. My version is also far more allinish as I reinforce with pure roach.
pwncakery
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada131 Posts
October 26 2012 21:23 GMT
#16
On October 27 2012 05:51 Siwelcela wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2012 05:29 orBitual wrote:
can't load buildings into a nydus


can someone confirm or deny this cause I swore I saw this on tlos stream forever ago. But if you can't would still be awesome to bring drones to build them

Confirmed, you cannot bring spines into a nydus.
Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
October 26 2012 21:57 GMT
#17
with this build, its very hard to comeback after the push if the terran did a bio opener. what do you need to scout to be sure that you'll do a lot of damages using this build?
usNEUX
Profile Joined March 2012
United States76 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-26 22:01:57
October 26 2012 22:00 GMT
#18
On October 26 2012 17:49 aka_star wrote:
A suggestion, you can swap out the nydus and replace in overlord drop and speed if you want to try to salvage the game. Yes its a little slower but you get pickup micro against units and can assault tanks, There is far more utility in it so depending how you want to play.


This was one of the first things I considered when I began working on this timing.

While I like the idea of a major drop timing and then being able to threaten drops throughout the game, this attack will probably come too late. Ventral Sacs is 130 seconds meaning you would need to start lair at around 4:30 to hit a similar timing. Even that is assuming that you are close by air on a map like Antiga where you could have rallied your OVs to a spot near his base before OV speed finished.

I plan on experimenting with this in the future, probably for a slightly later timing. The window against Hellion/Banshee is actually fairly long so I think it could be made to work. I feel like this would have a similar effect to Muta harass, making the Terran feel like he can't leave his base and likely forcing some turrets at his periphery for only a 300/300 investment on your part.

Also here are the links to the original GSL games, pulled from the Liquipedia entry linked in the OP: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70581/?set=5&lang=
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70603/?set=2&lang==
Unter allem Diebesgesindel sind die Narren die schlimmsten. Sie rauben euch beides, Zeit und Stimmung. - Goethe. NEVER GIVE UP NEVER SURRENDER.
riotjune
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States3392 Posts
October 26 2012 22:12 GMT
#19
So you backdoor your opponent using the nydus? More like get bi-curious
mineskiller
Profile Joined September 2012
United States3 Posts
October 26 2012 22:27 GMT
#20
Great build. Been doing this more than DRG's roach bane all-in.
http://www.twitch.tv/mineskiller
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