|
Very strong and versitile cheese.
Build Order
10 depot 12 barracks 15 orbital command, cut scv production train 1 marine call down MULE train 3 marines 750 minerals build 5 barracks depot depot depot
At this point, train marines, call MULES, and build depots as necessary. Push with 15 or 21 marines depending on the scout. Rally all raxes to your opponent before the push, continue to reinforce as your economy is perfectly suited to support 6 rax pump.
Explanation
Cutting scv production is the quickest way to 6 raxes. You won't need them anyway as this is designed to be quick and all-in. Saving 750 minerals before producing raxes allows for clearing scouts (very important) and gives the false impression of a FE build. I've tried several variations and this is the quickest way to 15 or 21 marine push with constant follow-up pump.
Notes
I sometimes scout after starting the 1st rax, but often I scout after getting the 750 minerals.
DENY THE SCOUT Scouting this build is nearly impossible before it matures. Kill the scout with your marines before putting up the additional raxes. Build the raxes away from obvious scan spots and don't let overlords sneak in. Other scouting methods won't be available before your push. You can make your 2nd depot early to wall off, but I find it is rarely necessary and slows your push. Lead your push with 3 or 4 marines to catch scouts without tipping your hand. Build 4 marines at your ramp, but build all the rest where they won't be noticed when opponent scouts your ramp. If you get your lack-of-gas scanned, consider throwing up 2 refinery before the scan ends, and then cancel them straight away. Consider faking a refinery before killing early scout, then cancel right away.
If you worry about a 6,7,8 pool, make 1st depot and rax next to CC and rally marines into worker line. When you feel comfortable, and before 750minerals, move marines to deny scouts at ramp.
This build is EXCELLENT for multiplayer games. The ease of this build will make your 'new to the game' friends instantly strong contributers. Consider having a toss or zerg teammate donate 150 gas for a lab and shields. The shields won't finish in time for the push, but make your midgame much stronger. It is so easy to win multiplayer games with a couple doing 6rax, that it gets boring.
This works very well against nearly all econ and tech builds. I doubt that many players lower than diamond are capable of the micro necessary to stop your push. Don't expect to win if your 1st push doesn't do a lot of damage, transitions are weak as you have no gas and low scv count. Doing any all-ins will not improve your skill in general. Complex builds and long games improve skill. Be good mannered, you did just cheese the guy. I win with this build about 70% of the time against mid-level diamond players, so expect success. No build is completely safe from a 6 rax all-in, but there are some things to watch out for.
Counters to 6 rax
Early stalker builds that mass stalkers in the hands of micro experts can counter your marines no matter how many you have, particularly if they catch you in the open field. Best solution is to send a few marines at the stalkers as a sacrifice and try to move your remaining marines into his base. This forces some engagement. If he neglects his stalkers at any point move your marines as close as you can before engaging so you can destroy them before they micro away. If he is keeping them out of range, focus down key pylons and probes.
1 base baneling is also trouble. With good micro you may be able focus the banelings, but one mistake and you're done. Keeping a small group of marines ahead of the rest will help.
Tanks obviously end your rush, so attack Terrans early. Bunkers won't end your push unless they have time to get scvs from their minerals. Move close to bunkers to get all your marines shooting at once. Don't move all your marines up the ramp initially. Have most at the bottem of the cliff so they can all engage when they get sight. Move into the base quickly to snipe tanks that should just be popping from the factories.
If you scout DT tech, save your scans. Your marine pump won't be affected to much, and he will be light on units anyway.
Sentry FF at ramp can stop your push. If you scout sentries, try to move your marines to the base of the cliff before moving some up the ramp. This will allow you to engage if any of your marines get partially up the ramp.
I'll alter content if moderaters request it.
Replays
2 recent replays of 6 rax vs 1200+ zergs, they were both expoing
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=152634
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=152636
Replay illustrating what to try when a sentry is FFing the ramp
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=152643
Replay 6 rax against a bm 1400 ranked #1 toss. (don't know why I get laddered against such)
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=153435
Forced it in on Desert Oasis. Should you? No. Did I against 1250 point Terran? Yes.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=153437
Works well on scrap by breaking rocks. This guy tried for carriers...
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=153445
More to come.
|
Winning much with this? Get to number 1 diamond?
|
Interesting build actually, and its nice you actually took the time to think of how to deal with counter builds, whether they work or not i don't know, but at least you thought about it. Will have to try this out. I think one issue though is if u can get the rush going before warpgate tech is up. I feel like a p who sees this and already has 1 ff+ warpgate can properly cut ur forces enough that you bleed too many marines to really push in. Especially 1-2 zealots pounding at your trapped marines are really cost effective. Have you considerd adding in a gas steal to slow sentry counts?
I am also sorta worried about trying to break a bunker down. Its fine if you get there before he spots it, but if he sees 15 marines running across the map he is gonna have 4,5,6 scvs ready to repair. I think you should add more to the guide about how/when to clear out scouts, maybe even be map specific,
And also, i assume when you say train 3 marines, it means in a row, and not just que them up.
|
With the new in game clock feature it would be nice to know what is the soonest you can push out of your base with this build. Just so we can see how our builds can hold to that pressure
|
|
See the thing is I wouldn't even consider this an all in.
I often do 3 Rax, get a marine, then techlab off each rax, then get combat and stim, and start making marines. Tacking on extra barracks as it comes closer.
If you're having trouble with banelings I find blueflame hellions to work really friggen well. They can kill a couple before being sacrificed. If you micro well you can kill a lot of banelings. Leave one behind to take some banes, then move the others, and keep repeating. I was using Mass marine/thor/helion against a Zerg who decided to go mass muta/ling/baneling and Hellions really were the key to my victory.
If it gets to a point your base is mined out you can just fly your CC to a new location, or cut marines for a cycle to get an expo.
|
On September 27 2010 16:35 DreamSailor wrote: See the thing is I wouldn't even consider this an all in.
If the build fails, there really isn't anything you can do to recover, so it is an all-in.
You don't have any gas, so the only thing you can produce is marines. With the amount of SCVs you have, you won't be able to support 5 rax while teching or expoing either unless you cut marine production which would probably work against you.
|
Have you considered getting gas before your first rax? It will slow your push by just a tiny bit but will give you enough gas to get a tech lab and stim for when you push making all of your marines much more effective.
|
On September 27 2010 16:37 Genome852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2010 16:35 DreamSailor wrote: See the thing is I wouldn't even consider this an all in. If the build fails, there really isn't anything you can do to recover, so it is an all-in. You don't have any gas, so the only thing you can produce is marines. With the amount of SCVs you have, you won't be able to support 5 rax while teching or expoing either unless you cut marine production which would probably work against you.
not really true. If you get a ton of damage done, the game stablizes. In the recent Jaedong Vs Flash, the zerg 4 pooled and got a whole bunch of scvs, equaling out the really aggressive build.
I am not trying to compare anything here, just proving a point that any "all in" build can be recovered from if you do a ton of damage and know exactly when to stop and start making up for the things you cut (scvs/econ/tech).
|
On September 27 2010 16:45 zomgtossrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2010 16:37 Genome852 wrote:On September 27 2010 16:35 DreamSailor wrote: See the thing is I wouldn't even consider this an all in. If the build fails, there really isn't anything you can do to recover, so it is an all-in. You don't have any gas, so the only thing you can produce is marines. With the amount of SCVs you have, you won't be able to support 5 rax while teching or expoing either unless you cut marine production which would probably work against you. not really true. If you get a ton of damage done, the game stablizes. In the recent Jaedong Vs Flash, the zerg 4 pooled and got a whole bunch of scvs, equaling out the really aggressive build. I am not trying to compare anything here, just proving a point that any "all in" build can be recovered from if you do a ton of damage and know exactly when to stop and start making up for the things you cut (scvs/econ/tech).
If you do a ton of damage, then your all-in didn't fail.
If I kill all your buildings and workers except your CC, then take the entire map just to annoy you, you could say that I'm transitioning out of an all-in as well.
|
On September 27 2010 16:45 zomgtossrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2010 16:37 Genome852 wrote:On September 27 2010 16:35 DreamSailor wrote: See the thing is I wouldn't even consider this an all in. If the build fails, there really isn't anything you can do to recover, so it is an all-in. You don't have any gas, so the only thing you can produce is marines. With the amount of SCVs you have, you won't be able to support 5 rax while teching or expoing either unless you cut marine production which would probably work against you. not really true. If you get a ton of damage done, the game stablizes. In the recent Jaedong Vs Flash, the zerg 4 pooled and got a whole bunch of scvs, equaling out the really aggressive build. I am not trying to compare anything here, just proving a point that any "all in" build can be recovered from if you do a ton of damage and know exactly when to stop and start making up for the things you cut (scvs/econ/tech).
Quite true, I've been able to snipe walled off barracks and depot's using a similar marine push, I have like 6-8 and he has about 3-5. You march up his ramp and blow his marines away and take a depot, supply blocking him.
I don't usually cut SCV production ever, but I usually take guys off of gas to support the extra marines/barracks
|
On September 27 2010 16:44 STS17 wrote: Have you considered getting gas before your first rax? It will slow your push by just a tiny bit but will give you enough gas to get a tech lab and stim for when you push making all of your marines much more effective.
Its kind of a trade off, sounds good on paper, but you are REALLY cutting into your marine count by doing something like this. Not only is it the 75 minerals for the refinery, its another 100 for the upgrade, plus the building time for the ref of that one scv, plus u lose 3 scvs on mining gas for quite some time. Doing a gas intake i think would either force you to make more scvs, or cut a rax out.
Could it still work? Of course. It would be a variation of the cheese. Is one better than the other? Impossible to tell.
|
its an all in build, there is no point in arguing. Yes occasionally an all in build will get equalized but its still considered all in.
|
I don't mean to re-open lots of discussion about this build that was covered in another thread, but I really wanted to formalize the build with a few changes and lots of up-front explanation. I haven't ever played against this build or seen it used in a stream, so it is still a realative unknown. Hope this helps.
|
On September 27 2010 16:50 zomgtossrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2010 16:44 STS17 wrote: Have you considered getting gas before your first rax? It will slow your push by just a tiny bit but will give you enough gas to get a tech lab and stim for when you push making all of your marines much more effective. Its kind of a trade off, sounds good on paper, but you are REALLY cutting into your marine count by doing something like this. Not only is it the 75 minerals for the refinery, its another 100 for the upgrade, plus the building time for the ref of that one scv, plus u lose 3 scvs on mining gas for quite some time. Doing a gas intake i think would either force you to make more scvs, or cut a rax out. Could it still work? Of course. It would be a variation of the cheese. Is one better than the other? Impossible to tell.
One may be safer then the other, and perhaps one will work better against different races. Yes you lose the mining time and may have to cut down to five rax instead of six in order to compete but I'd imagine 12-17 marines with stim do more damage then his quoted 15-21.
Mostly I was just curious if he had tested the variation of it.
|
I played against this trash today and noticed a) the terran wasn't scouting b) he walled with three depots really, really early.
He counterattacked immediately once I broke the rocks and since I had already gone lair there was zero time to make a baneling nest.
|
Hmmm have you considered doing a 13 gas -> mining 100 gas and going back to minerals? This will make your opponent less suspicious of something fishy going on, and you can use the 100 gas to make 2 reactors instead of 2 barracks (saving you in total 125 minerals + barrack build time - gas building time - gas mining time).
|
nice replays, how does this strategy work against MOST TvT and TvP?
|
On September 27 2010 17:03 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: Hmmm have you considered doing a 13 gas -> mining 100 gas and going back to minerals? This will make your opponent less suspicious of something fishy going on, and you can use the 100 gas to make 2 reactors instead of 2 barracks (saving you in total 125 minerals + barrack build time - gas building time - gas mining time).
Reactor eats two marine production cycles meaning you need to be able to justify 2 production cycles of reactor'd marines to break even (with the number of marines you could have had if you did not get the reactor) and then an additional cycle just to get one additional measly marine.
That's 125 game seconds for one extra marine (per rax) in a rush which must get there as quickly as possible. I doubt it would be worth it
|
On September 27 2010 17:03 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: Hmmm have you considered doing a 13 gas -> mining 100 gas and going back to minerals? This will make your opponent less suspicious of something fishy going on, and you can use the 100 gas to make 2 reactors instead of 2 barracks (saving you in total 125 minerals + barrack build time - gas building time - gas mining time).
OOo, i like this. The only downside is that there is a bigger window of opportunity for his to scout the 2 additional rax go down, since you have to have them down early enough for ur reactors to pay off, but if u have locked out the scout, this could be a nice variation/improvement to this build.
|
|
|
|