10 depot 12 barracks 15 orbital command, cut scv production train 1 marine call down MULE train 3 marines 750 minerals build 5 barracks depot depot depot
At this point, train marines, call MULES, and build depots as necessary. Push with 15 or 21 marines depending on the scout. Rally all raxes to your opponent before the push, continue to reinforce as your economy is perfectly suited to support 6 rax pump.
Explanation
Cutting scv production is the quickest way to 6 raxes. You won't need them anyway as this is designed to be quick and all-in. Saving 750 minerals before producing raxes allows for clearing scouts (very important) and gives the false impression of a FE build. I've tried several variations and this is the quickest way to 15 or 21 marine push with constant follow-up pump.
Notes
I sometimes scout after starting the 1st rax, but often I scout after getting the 750 minerals.
DENY THE SCOUT Scouting this build is nearly impossible before it matures. Kill the scout with your marines before putting up the additional raxes. Build the raxes away from obvious scan spots and don't let overlords sneak in. Other scouting methods won't be available before your push. You can make your 2nd depot early to wall off, but I find it is rarely necessary and slows your push. Lead your push with 3 or 4 marines to catch scouts without tipping your hand. Build 4 marines at your ramp, but build all the rest where they won't be noticed when opponent scouts your ramp. If you get your lack-of-gas scanned, consider throwing up 2 refinery before the scan ends, and then cancel them straight away. Consider faking a refinery before killing early scout, then cancel right away.
If you worry about a 6,7,8 pool, make 1st depot and rax next to CC and rally marines into worker line. When you feel comfortable, and before 750minerals, move marines to deny scouts at ramp.
This build is EXCELLENT for multiplayer games. The ease of this build will make your 'new to the game' friends instantly strong contributers. Consider having a toss or zerg teammate donate 150 gas for a lab and shields. The shields won't finish in time for the push, but make your midgame much stronger. It is so easy to win multiplayer games with a couple doing 6rax, that it gets boring.
This works very well against nearly all econ and tech builds. I doubt that many players lower than diamond are capable of the micro necessary to stop your push. Don't expect to win if your 1st push doesn't do a lot of damage, transitions are weak as you have no gas and low scv count. Doing any all-ins will not improve your skill in general. Complex builds and long games improve skill. Be good mannered, you did just cheese the guy. I win with this build about 70% of the time against mid-level diamond players, so expect success. No build is completely safe from a 6 rax all-in, but there are some things to watch out for.
Counters to 6 rax
Early stalker builds that mass stalkers in the hands of micro experts can counter your marines no matter how many you have, particularly if they catch you in the open field. Best solution is to send a few marines at the stalkers as a sacrifice and try to move your remaining marines into his base. This forces some engagement. If he neglects his stalkers at any point move your marines as close as you can before engaging so you can destroy them before they micro away. If he is keeping them out of range, focus down key pylons and probes.
1 base baneling is also trouble. With good micro you may be able focus the banelings, but one mistake and you're done. Keeping a small group of marines ahead of the rest will help.
Tanks obviously end your rush, so attack Terrans early. Bunkers won't end your push unless they have time to get scvs from their minerals. Move close to bunkers to get all your marines shooting at once. Don't move all your marines up the ramp initially. Have most at the bottem of the cliff so they can all engage when they get sight. Move into the base quickly to snipe tanks that should just be popping from the factories.
If you scout DT tech, save your scans. Your marine pump won't be affected to much, and he will be light on units anyway.
Sentry FF at ramp can stop your push. If you scout sentries, try to move your marines to the base of the cliff before moving some up the ramp. This will allow you to engage if any of your marines get partially up the ramp.
I'll alter content if moderaters request it.
Replays
2 recent replays of 6 rax vs 1200+ zergs, they were both expoing
Interesting build actually, and its nice you actually took the time to think of how to deal with counter builds, whether they work or not i don't know, but at least you thought about it. Will have to try this out. I think one issue though is if u can get the rush going before warpgate tech is up. I feel like a p who sees this and already has 1 ff+ warpgate can properly cut ur forces enough that you bleed too many marines to really push in. Especially 1-2 zealots pounding at your trapped marines are really cost effective. Have you considerd adding in a gas steal to slow sentry counts?
I am also sorta worried about trying to break a bunker down. Its fine if you get there before he spots it, but if he sees 15 marines running across the map he is gonna have 4,5,6 scvs ready to repair. I think you should add more to the guide about how/when to clear out scouts, maybe even be map specific,
And also, i assume when you say train 3 marines, it means in a row, and not just que them up.
With the new in game clock feature it would be nice to know what is the soonest you can push out of your base with this build. Just so we can see how our builds can hold to that pressure
See the thing is I wouldn't even consider this an all in.
I often do 3 Rax, get a marine, then techlab off each rax, then get combat and stim, and start making marines. Tacking on extra barracks as it comes closer.
If you're having trouble with banelings I find blueflame hellions to work really friggen well. They can kill a couple before being sacrificed. If you micro well you can kill a lot of banelings. Leave one behind to take some banes, then move the others, and keep repeating. I was using Mass marine/thor/helion against a Zerg who decided to go mass muta/ling/baneling and Hellions really were the key to my victory.
If it gets to a point your base is mined out you can just fly your CC to a new location, or cut marines for a cycle to get an expo.
On September 27 2010 16:35 DreamSailor wrote: See the thing is I wouldn't even consider this an all in.
If the build fails, there really isn't anything you can do to recover, so it is an all-in.
You don't have any gas, so the only thing you can produce is marines. With the amount of SCVs you have, you won't be able to support 5 rax while teching or expoing either unless you cut marine production which would probably work against you.
Have you considered getting gas before your first rax? It will slow your push by just a tiny bit but will give you enough gas to get a tech lab and stim for when you push making all of your marines much more effective.
On September 27 2010 16:35 DreamSailor wrote: See the thing is I wouldn't even consider this an all in.
If the build fails, there really isn't anything you can do to recover, so it is an all-in.
You don't have any gas, so the only thing you can produce is marines. With the amount of SCVs you have, you won't be able to support 5 rax while teching or expoing either unless you cut marine production which would probably work against you.
not really true. If you get a ton of damage done, the game stablizes. In the recent Jaedong Vs Flash, the zerg 4 pooled and got a whole bunch of scvs, equaling out the really aggressive build.
I am not trying to compare anything here, just proving a point that any "all in" build can be recovered from if you do a ton of damage and know exactly when to stop and start making up for the things you cut (scvs/econ/tech).
On September 27 2010 16:35 DreamSailor wrote: See the thing is I wouldn't even consider this an all in.
If the build fails, there really isn't anything you can do to recover, so it is an all-in.
You don't have any gas, so the only thing you can produce is marines. With the amount of SCVs you have, you won't be able to support 5 rax while teching or expoing either unless you cut marine production which would probably work against you.
not really true. If you get a ton of damage done, the game stablizes. In the recent Jaedong Vs Flash, the zerg 4 pooled and got a whole bunch of scvs, equaling out the really aggressive build.
I am not trying to compare anything here, just proving a point that any "all in" build can be recovered from if you do a ton of damage and know exactly when to stop and start making up for the things you cut (scvs/econ/tech).
If you do a ton of damage, then your all-in didn't fail.
If I kill all your buildings and workers except your CC, then take the entire map just to annoy you, you could say that I'm transitioning out of an all-in as well.
On September 27 2010 16:35 DreamSailor wrote: See the thing is I wouldn't even consider this an all in.
If the build fails, there really isn't anything you can do to recover, so it is an all-in.
You don't have any gas, so the only thing you can produce is marines. With the amount of SCVs you have, you won't be able to support 5 rax while teching or expoing either unless you cut marine production which would probably work against you.
not really true. If you get a ton of damage done, the game stablizes. In the recent Jaedong Vs Flash, the zerg 4 pooled and got a whole bunch of scvs, equaling out the really aggressive build.
I am not trying to compare anything here, just proving a point that any "all in" build can be recovered from if you do a ton of damage and know exactly when to stop and start making up for the things you cut (scvs/econ/tech).
Quite true, I've been able to snipe walled off barracks and depot's using a similar marine push, I have like 6-8 and he has about 3-5. You march up his ramp and blow his marines away and take a depot, supply blocking him.
I don't usually cut SCV production ever, but I usually take guys off of gas to support the extra marines/barracks
On September 27 2010 16:44 STS17 wrote: Have you considered getting gas before your first rax? It will slow your push by just a tiny bit but will give you enough gas to get a tech lab and stim for when you push making all of your marines much more effective.
Its kind of a trade off, sounds good on paper, but you are REALLY cutting into your marine count by doing something like this. Not only is it the 75 minerals for the refinery, its another 100 for the upgrade, plus the building time for the ref of that one scv, plus u lose 3 scvs on mining gas for quite some time. Doing a gas intake i think would either force you to make more scvs, or cut a rax out.
Could it still work? Of course. It would be a variation of the cheese. Is one better than the other? Impossible to tell.
I don't mean to re-open lots of discussion about this build that was covered in another thread, but I really wanted to formalize the build with a few changes and lots of up-front explanation. I haven't ever played against this build or seen it used in a stream, so it is still a realative unknown. Hope this helps.
On September 27 2010 16:44 STS17 wrote: Have you considered getting gas before your first rax? It will slow your push by just a tiny bit but will give you enough gas to get a tech lab and stim for when you push making all of your marines much more effective.
Its kind of a trade off, sounds good on paper, but you are REALLY cutting into your marine count by doing something like this. Not only is it the 75 minerals for the refinery, its another 100 for the upgrade, plus the building time for the ref of that one scv, plus u lose 3 scvs on mining gas for quite some time. Doing a gas intake i think would either force you to make more scvs, or cut a rax out.
Could it still work? Of course. It would be a variation of the cheese. Is one better than the other? Impossible to tell.
One may be safer then the other, and perhaps one will work better against different races. Yes you lose the mining time and may have to cut down to five rax instead of six in order to compete but I'd imagine 12-17 marines with stim do more damage then his quoted 15-21.
Mostly I was just curious if he had tested the variation of it.
Hmmm have you considered doing a 13 gas -> mining 100 gas and going back to minerals? This will make your opponent less suspicious of something fishy going on, and you can use the 100 gas to make 2 reactors instead of 2 barracks (saving you in total 125 minerals + barrack build time - gas building time - gas mining time).
On September 27 2010 17:03 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: Hmmm have you considered doing a 13 gas -> mining 100 gas and going back to minerals? This will make your opponent less suspicious of something fishy going on, and you can use the 100 gas to make 2 reactors instead of 2 barracks (saving you in total 125 minerals + barrack build time - gas building time - gas mining time).
Reactor eats two marine production cycles meaning you need to be able to justify 2 production cycles of reactor'd marines to break even (with the number of marines you could have had if you did not get the reactor) and then an additional cycle just to get one additional measly marine.
That's 125 game seconds for one extra marine (per rax) in a rush which must get there as quickly as possible. I doubt it would be worth it
On September 27 2010 17:03 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: Hmmm have you considered doing a 13 gas -> mining 100 gas and going back to minerals? This will make your opponent less suspicious of something fishy going on, and you can use the 100 gas to make 2 reactors instead of 2 barracks (saving you in total 125 minerals + barrack build time - gas building time - gas mining time).
OOo, i like this. The only downside is that there is a bigger window of opportunity for his to scout the 2 additional rax go down, since you have to have them down early enough for ur reactors to pay off, but if u have locked out the scout, this could be a nice variation/improvement to this build.
I was hit by this 'marine rush' once and it did catch me off guard. So I watched the replay and saw this same sort of build order, tried it on my next match and it worked...once lol
Tried to do this in 2v2 but everytime I massed some marines there was already a tank out, probably wasn't quick enough in that case and quickly dropped this tactic from my arsenal. Back to the 1-1-1 tried, tested and true
The problem I see with this is there is no gas. As Terran, I would see that you had no gas when I was putting my own up at 13, and would automatically be suspicious. I would either sacrifice a probe or use an early scan. And once you scout it and see the cutting of probes it is really easy to stop. Like another poster said, don't you think getting 125 gas for stim would be a lot more effective seeing that the other person would be much more likely to believe you were going with a standard build?
I've tried a variation of this build back in the beta. There was a very nice guide thread for this build (the op got to #1 diamond with it).
The most important thing I've noticed with this build that makes it so hard to stop is that by NOT getting the refinery, your able to plant down a second supply depot relatively early that allows you to block off the scouting worker (unless he sends it earlier than usual).
As a Zerg player, if I ever scout a fully wall-off Terran with my first scouting drone, I would just assume it was cause I scouted late/got delayed w/e. THEN when you scout the no add-on on the Rax, the first thing that pops into my head is "Banshee Cheese". Also since it's a marine based cheese, it's hard to scout with overlords if a player has good base awareness as groups of marines on edge of base are usually able to deny overlords before Z sees much. Again all that's seen is probably 5-6 marines which imo is common for a banshee rush.
As you all know, defending a Banshee Rush as Z, is very different than an all-in marine attack
Don't think I've ever lost with this against my 1k Zerg practice partner when we're doing bo'X'. Note: I'm also a Z 1k player dabbling with T to release stress =P
I did a bit of testing with this build, now I may not have done his build perfectly, but I got the basics down, cutting workers, waiting for 750 to plunk down five rax, then constant production (only alteration I made was a second depot to finish the wall in, before dropping those five rax). At around 7 minutes into a game, you have roughly 23 marines (give or take a few) and 15 workers.
I compared that to a standard T bio opening, 12 rax, 13 gas (in my case I got it at 14), 15 orbital, etc. Getting a tech lab on the first rax then plonking down two more rax (no workers cut at any-time), adding reactors to the second two, I got 11 marines, 4 marauders, plus stim, so a 19 food army in comparasion to a 23 food army. I'd be willing to bet 11 marines and 4 marauders with stim would be more effective than 23 marines.
Considering the fact no workers at any stage were cut, gas was still gotten and there being enough gas to make a factory / expand / ghost academy / second gas, without gimping your economy or tech, I'd say a solid bio opening would be more effective.
My 2 cents from the small amount of testing I did. Could probably squeeze a +1 upgrade in there as well, but that'd be past the first 7 minutes I tested (when the timing push would generally happen).
The problem with builds like this is that they dont make you a better player. Anyone can follow a build order and sure, you'll probably win more than 50% of your games - but it doesn't make you good, and doesn't help you improve. I'm all for people using these 'sometimes', like say in a best of 5 or something. But if you're laddering doing nothing but this you'll end up ranking up to the level at which this wont work, and then you have nothing else to fall back on. You'll have the rank, but it will be undeserved.
But anyways, I digress - from experience this build can be very powerful. I've had it done to me while laddering on two occasions. Wish I could find the replay. One time I got caught with my pants down and didn't have enough stuff to stop it (Xel'naga expansion bit to far away to defend + defend ramp) The other time it happened on metalopolis and I did scout it with a pair of overlords on each side of his main. A quick baneling nest and a nice flank with sling, blings = the attack got crushed and the guy left.
hey gimpy. Wanted to drop by and say thank you, since me and a couple of my friends have been using this build a TON in 2on2 3on3 4on4s and weve never lost with it at least in 3on3 and 4on4 Its also easy for my noob friends to pull off (i usually micro the first pack of ~30 marines) and they get the 2nd 3rd pack etc... Its also easily possible to get a refinery after the first 15-20 marines and make 1 techlab for combat shield and some marauders.
We always call this the 6-rax build ( one time a new guy built his rax on 6 lol ) and we all love it alot So again, thanks to you.
I too would like to try a variation of this with getting 125 gas for stim. Probably would need to cut 1 rax, but ~20 marines with stim or shields definitely sound more dangerous than 23 marines with nothing.
That would also pretty much fix the Stalkers kiting issues.
if the zerg has a couple of lings outside your base, or sac overlord, or has watchtower, he'd have time to get spinecrawlers and banelings out. same goes for T or P opponent, all it takes is a scout unit at bottom of your ramp and they should have enough time to prepare.
Someone tried this against me yesterday when I was Zerg on steppes of war. I happened to wall my front with a 2nd hatch and 3 spine crawlers and when the marines reached my front he decided to build a bunch of bunkers and try to contain me while he switched to tanks so I nydus wurmed and wiped out his econ.
Against most of my Zerg builds it would have been really strong though, heh.
I've actually done this opening quite a bit in the past. I still do it once in a while because it's just plain stupid fun to hit someone who's not expecting it with a huge ball of marines. I'd get into it more in-depth, but I'm late for work already... QQ
Now the people in the replays are just plat like myself, but I have had this work in a similar manner against diamond players as well.
I think it's fun, but feels a bit too all-in-ish to do more that once in a while. Success really seems to depend on surprise, which makes it a bit cheesy too. I'd say its still a good opening to have in your arsenal though.
Its quite amazing ... u can even fake a refinary then cancel it and kill scout with ur first marine its pretty difficoult to scout for zerg and like impossible to scout for P
Very intressting build you have here, instead of going 5rax reapers you have turned it into a 6rax marine push. Something that would intrest me to see would be a reactor addon or tech lab on the first rax. In fact you could build multiple addons and float the rax away so you have 2-3 addons for when your 6rax are done which would put you extreamly behind on ecnomy but this is an allin build in the first place, if your first 2 pushes do not succed in harming him in some way, such as tech, units or workers then you have pretty much lost the game.
The funny thing is with this build is that it is suseptable to early pushes such as queen/roach 1 base expand from the zerg, this build falls prey to early pressure builds du to the fact that your saving all your minerals up for the 5rax to be built at the same time while in the mean time all you have is your wall and 4 marines. Posting up some timmings would really help out your post imo and it would show exactly what early builds would counter this, such as a baneling bust or a early 10gate into 3 gate push from toss.
From my point of view I could see this build becoming a nusience for toss players like myself that tend to go 1gate core into 4gate expand or robo, as I tend only build 2-3 units before my 4 gates with warp are up.
This build also seams like the direct counter to a teir one building expand type of build which quite a few zerg players tend to do.
On September 27 2010 22:55 noD wrote: might try it in my next TvT kinda annoyed by 30min + games
If he can get his SCV in before you wall off, and sees you don't have any gas, a bunker + quick siege tanks will destroy this build. It's probably the weakest against terran simply because of how easily he can scout what is happening with a quick scan. Overall, I still hate the build though. It's nothing but a way to end the game as fast as possible.
Did this a lot pre beta. Will occasionally give it a try TvP or TvZ in bo3 or bo5 matches.. but on rare occasion. With proper sentry micro it will lose and exceptional baneline // speedling control can also beat it.
However.. if you can scout a fast expand you secure a win with this.. as with any all in timing push around this time though.
I have been on rare occasions been able to transition into a late game by dropping an expansion during the initial push (only do this if it looks grim, because you're reinforcements will be nonexistent) . But you have to make sure you take down enough probes otherwise you are going to be VERY far behind.
Overall.. its a decent build. Yes you will get wins, Yes you can get 800 diamond with it. But you will not learn anything. You will eventually hit a wall. I've played time and captain waffles using this and they're control is just superior. While it make cut it very close, if you do not win you are going to have quite a blunder.
I saw this build (or an extremely similar build) a few days ago. I feel it's fragile against Z -- if they have a baneling nest and see you move out, you might be screwed. You can stim and run, but banelings will pull back. Add in a good flank and it's shut down pretty hard.
What happened in my game was not one-sided but I fended off the push and eventually won. I saw his wall and my scout didn't see gas, so I threw up a baneling nest as I usually do when I'm unsure of the tech path T is taking. Once I saw his marines moving out I didn't have enough lings, so I moved the drones from my expo, pumped lings, and sacced my expo. By the time he moved to my main I had more than enough to take it out. I double expanded, pumped more banelings, and eventually won the game with ultras and banelings. I could have ended it sooner if I had just pumped more and more banelings but I generally don't like the idea of having to suicide my entire army on an offensive.
9 rax (wall) 2 workers 11 gas the gas will be completed at the same time as rax. so after rax rdy: 11 orbital comand, transit two workers to gas (3 workers at gas totally) 11 supply (u build it with same worker which finishe rax), 11 tech lab now build two more workers and reaper, u ll have 13 workers and reaper = 14 supply. (14 doble rax) now build two more rax build marine and make stimpack after that, build marines and scv's non stop with priority to marines when 2 rax rdy = make reactors to both and produce mass marines after u queved two reactors = remove one scv from gas after u ll get 100 gas = remove all scv's from gas
when stimpack rdy, queve combat shields and move in attack and kill your opponent, if he is still alive (1 chance from 100) then build epx. after 2nd CC started=> start mining gas from two gases with 6 scv's and build factory. then go battlecruisers or any other tech u like.
about 9 rax - it was calculated that 9 rax economically is not worse then standard, cas u get mule faster. i checked it and confirm.
btw i reccomend to build CC on HG and make OC and launch mule. and only after that fly to natrual expo.
btw, it would be interesting to check quantity of marines at 6 mins replay time. i have about 13 rines and stimpack (and 1 reaper). When 5 rax build have 13 rines at about 5:40 but no stimpack. 6 rax build i didnt check. but i think its even worse. u can do testings and say.
I haven't faced this yet, but wouldn't a toss holding you at the ramp with force fields pretty much destroy this build? With just 2 sentries he could keep you there indefinetely and rush to collosus tech. Then would become a marine BBQ.
On September 28 2010 01:03 Shadrak wrote: I haven't faced this yet, but wouldn't a toss holding you at the ramp with force fields pretty much destroy this build? With just 2 sentries he could keep you there indefinetely and rush to collosus tech. Then would become a marine BBQ.
1st we need to check is toss able to make infinite force field at about 6:15 ? but if yes, then he ll need at least 6 sentry - thats big money. so we make expo and toss just has nothing to make his own.
the only race which cas easily defend agains rines is terran. he can use bunker with 4 rines. good defence and cheap.
On September 28 2010 01:03 Shadrak wrote: I haven't faced this yet, but wouldn't a toss holding you at the ramp with force fields pretty much destroy this build? With just 2 sentries he could keep you there indefinetely and rush to collosus tech. Then would become a marine BBQ.
1st we need to check is toss able to make infinite force field at about 6:15 ? but if yes, then he ll need at least 6 sentry - thats big money. so we make expo and toss just has nothing to make his own.
the only race which cas easily defend agains rines is terran. he can use bunker with 4 rines. good defence and cheap.
Unless I'm mistaken, you can infinite forcefield with 4 sentries. It's not hard to get 4 sentries that early in the game.
I played this build pretty often. My experience is:
TvZ: its very good if there is no banelingnest. If there is a banelingnest, throw down an exp+bunkers three teclabs and go with 5-6 marauders+stim
TvT: it worked very bad in 1.0 because "wall in"s and tanks killed this so easy I dont know how it works in 1.1 since tanks are not that good against marines anymore. (were talking of 1 tank against a bunch of marines) But I think its not working against Terran (I had no time to play 1.1)
TvP: it works fine if you micro properly. Noone gets 3 sentrys for infinite forcefield and even if someone gets that you may expand and throw down some bunkers... But usually you win in TvP :D
For me it worked pretty well but I only played this build if I was angry and wanted a quick win. I used to be in the top 4000 in Europe with 20% of time playing this build...
This is why I get super fast baneling nest vs terran. If you don't have a baneling nest, those fuckers will tear through your natural like its not there.
saving 750 minerals is retarded. It's better to just make raxes outside your base somewhere, and you should easily be able to chase the worker out of your base with the first marine.
Ya but one of the major reasons for waiting to drop the rax is to avoid being scouted. If someone scouts at 10 and sees 3 rax with no gas they are going to know exactly what is coming.
I had mass rines thrown at me last night in a TvT though it wasn't this build. That build was a forward 10 rax with a quick 2nd rax next to it (eventual addon to 4x rax). I scouted after supply and noticed no rax in his base as 4 rines ran up my ramp while I had 2. I was rushing to mech and managed to hold it off with 1 rax marine + hellions -> tanks, obviously after that failed start it was game. It's interesting that people are thinking about rines vs terran now after the siege tank nerf.
This was my first time trying the build. Obviously I made a mistake in not walling off early enough. Nonetheless, I managed to hold off his ling push. The banelings killed me a little later on, but Zerg often makes the fatal mistake of morphing their banelings RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR CHOKE. Tsk tsk. If you're up against an instinctive baneling build (scouting doesn't influence Z's decision) while going 6rax, keep a marine somewhere near your choke and watch for blings morphing. Just take your rines out and snipe them. He teched to Mutas, but I was able to hold off the small numbers.
Not the greatest example of how the build works, so I'll post more later.
The key to this build is denying the scout constantly. The rest is simple. One thing I'd like to note: I made a mistake in keeping the majority of my rines right next to my choke, allowing him to see what I had. It didn't matter, though, as by the time I pushed out, he only had one sentry. That's the beauty of this. If your opponent doesn't scout it, he won't know to get more than 1 sentry.
I'd like to say this proves that the build is viable against banelings, scouted or not. However, I don't think my opponent micro'd his blings properly. Are you supposed to charge head-on against a pack of rines? Or would it have been better if he had advanced with the lings and followed with blings?
Either way, the sheer mass of marines allows you to snipe the blings before they do too much damage. You really don't need stim at all, as long as you're attentive with your rines. Notice that once again, my opponent morphs his bling in front of my choke, allowing me to snipe them easily. My first push into his main was abysmal, as I lost the whole pack of rines to his blings. Huge mistake. After that, I was more careful, and microing the rines away from danger wasn't too hard.
Imagine if he hadn't gone blings until he scouted the 6rax. He would have been in for some trouble.
On September 27 2010 17:03 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: Hmmm have you considered doing a 13 gas -> mining 100 gas and going back to minerals? This will make your opponent less suspicious of something fishy going on, and you can use the 100 gas to make 2 reactors instead of 2 barracks (saving you in total 125 minerals + barrack build time - gas building time - gas mining time).
Reactor eats two marine production cycles meaning you need to be able to justify 2 production cycles of reactor'd marines to break even (with the number of marines you could have had if you did not get the reactor) and then an additional cycle just to get one additional measly marine.
That's 125 game seconds for one extra marine (per rax) in a rush which must get there as quickly as possible. I doubt it would be worth it
He's right on the money. In an all-in scenario like this, the reactors wouldn't be worth it.
Oh, and I was probably around 850 diamond before using this build. I am currently ~1000 diamond. I don't intend to use this build at higher level of play, as it simply doesn't work against good players. I know my opponents in the replays aren't very good, but I posted the replays just so you could get the gist of the build.
I like the 12rax 13rax more. you make the 2 early raxes(no addons, no gas), and push out the moment you have 7 marines. It punishes pretty much the same builds that 6rax would punish. Its also pretty heavy on the micro side. But you dont have to cut SCVs, you can tech, or expand, and you have the option of pulling back if needed. The difference would be that it doesnt punish the opponent quite as hard. If he is low on early defenses, then you get 10 worker kills, and a safe expo, instead of outright winning. the advantage is that if your opponent is prepared, you arent behind.
On September 27 2010 21:33 Viruuus wrote: hey gimpy. Wanted to drop by and say thank you, since me and a couple of my friends have been using this build a TON in 2on2 3on3 4on4s and weve never lost with it at least in 3on3 and 4on4 Its also easy for my noob friends to pull off (i usually micro the first pack of ~30 marines) and they get the 2nd 3rd pack etc... Its also easily possible to get a refinery after the first 15-20 marines and make 1 techlab for combat shield and some marauders.
We always call this the 6-rax build ( one time a new guy built his rax on 6 lol ) and we all love it alot So again, thanks to you.
This made my day, thanks Viruuus! I have several bronze/silver/gold friends who do the same thing with 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4. They aren't serious SC2 players, they just wanna win, and we can! I try to talk them out of doing the same thing every time for variety sake, but they just wanna win Actually, winning has given them a good taste for SC and now they play 1v1s and are getting better.
I've added to the guide to address these good observations from your posts. They concern: Multiplayer, ling scouts, ramp scouting, refinery fakes and marine hiding.
On September 28 2010 01:03 Shadrak wrote: I haven't faced this yet, but wouldn't a toss holding you at the ramp with force fields pretty much destroy this build? With just 2 sentries he could keep you there indefinetely and rush to collosus tech. Then would become a marine BBQ.
1st we need to check is toss able to make infinite force field at about 6:15 ? but if yes, then he ll need at least 6 sentry - thats big money. so we make expo and toss just has nothing to make his own.
the only race which cas easily defend agains rines is terran. he can use bunker with 4 rines. good defence and cheap.
Unless I'm mistaken, you can infinite forcefield with 4 sentries. It's not hard to get 4 sentries that early in the game.
Its not really a matter of haveing 4 when the push arrives anyways. Its a matter of if they have warpgate.
If the have 1 ff ready, then see ur force come up. they will ff. In that time they can almost continually warp in 1 sentry+ a few units, all will taking a few marines at a time. Its the same logic with trying to blingbust a p, if he see it coming and he has warpgates, it basically wont work.
I just tried this against a P on scrap station, quick colossus + sentry guardian shield +some zealots killed me (the reinforcing was my biggest problem since its so far)
On September 28 2010 06:12 CellTech wrote: I just tried this against a P on scrap station, quick colossus + sentry guardian shield +some zealots killed me (the reinforcing was my biggest problem since its so far)
Yeah, I don't recommend using this build on maps with long rush distances. But why didn't you destroy the rocks and minimize the reinforcement time?
I've been messing with Terran on NA server, and i've tried this BO around 3-4 times and it's worked well. A lot of things can be tweaked to hide this all in, i.e. building a fake refinery > killing scout > continuing with 6 rax, and once it's started it's pretty hard to stop.
Why wouldn't you start marine production earlier instead of building an extra barracks or two? Since you're going for an all-in anyways, an extra 3-6 marines would be huge.
Not to mention if an OL comes in and sees an empty base, they'll know something is up. At least use the marines to prevent that scout.
On September 27 2010 16:35 DreamSailor wrote: See the thing is I wouldn't even consider this an all in.
If the build fails, there really isn't anything you can do to recover, so it is an all-in.
You don't have any gas, so the only thing you can produce is marines. With the amount of SCVs you have, you won't be able to support 5 rax while teching or expoing either unless you cut marine production which would probably work against you.
not really true. If you get a ton of damage done, the game stablizes. In the recent Jaedong Vs Flash, the zerg 4 pooled and got a whole bunch of scvs, equaling out the really aggressive build.
I am not trying to compare anything here, just proving a point that any "all in" build can be recovered from if you do a ton of damage and know exactly when to stop and start making up for the things you cut (scvs/econ/tech).
a build that depends on doing a ton of damage to stabalize the game is called an allin. the debate is not about whether or not you can maintain even footing with it. its that if it fails you are totally fucked. your a freakin idiot stop posting.
The longer you wait, the less optimal it is, and the more you've stunted you economy for nothing.
Even at 21 marines timing you are only 2-3 marines better than a build that was constantly creating workers and gathering gas, according to my (not perfect) tests. And then after that you slowly decline.
So personally, I think it would be wiser to optimize the build for a 10-15 marine push.
I have tried this strategy in 10+ games now and I must say it is very weak. It works on small maps if 1) Your opponent does not scout in time AND 2) He is not smart enough to go banelings, multiple bunkers or forcefield his ramp until he gets Colossus.
This is typical cheese. It works if you catch your opponent off guard and against bad players. But against equal players that do not screw up early game it is close to auto-lose.
On September 28 2010 01:03 Shadrak wrote: I haven't faced this yet, but wouldn't a toss holding you at the ramp with force fields pretty much destroy this build? With just 2 sentries he could keep you there indefinetely and rush to collosus tech. Then would become a marine BBQ.
1st we need to check is toss able to make infinite force field at about 6:15 ? but if yes, then he ll need at least 6 sentry - thats big money. so we make expo and toss just has nothing to make his own.
the only race which cas easily defend agains rines is terran. he can use bunker with 4 rines. good defence and cheap.
Sorry I should have said starting with 2 sentries. Toss should be able to make a couple more while the initial ones take turns FFing (the first should have at least enough power for 2 FFs by this time).
Again this is just my guess, would have to play against it to see but it seems like it would put a stop to the initial rush pretty quickly. The following rine BBQ would seal T's fate.
However, this might work on Scrap station. Those marines should destroy the rocks quite quickly and there aren't enough sentries in the world to hold the SS ramp indefinetely.
I've tried this probably 6-7 times in custom games and honestly, it only worked vs lower league players (I beat a couple silvers and a gold). Anyone plat or diamond should see this coming and adjust properly.
Do not learn this build. It is a pure cheese. Any decent player will be able to counter it. I can do it with either of my off-races (with scouting in time, not knowing it's coming).
I know in TvT I have 1-2 tanks and time for a bunker up = easy hold.
Pretty sure most of you guys haven't had this build "done to you". Check the replay and see if the build is the same. If it isn't, of course it failed. Building nothing but marines is bound to fail if it doesn't hit at the right time, and in the right way. I've done this hundreds of times in beta, multiplayer and release. Just gotta trust me that it is tweaked. If it doesn't work for you, fine, but it will work against you in the right hands.
It can't be scouted if you aren't a nublet. (short a lucky scan)
FFs can counter, banelings can counter, but Jeadong didn't know what Flash was doing before he 4 pooled him twice. Sometimes the gamble is worth it. Jeadong sure was lucky that Flash didn't wall off, put down 12 bunkers down and tech straight to bc's, cause these things counter a 4 pool every time!
On September 30 2010 15:25 gimpy wrote: New replay posted against a bm #1 ranked 1400 point toss. Long distance was worrisome, but scouted an early zealot and thus saved scan for dts.
It worked because he had no ramp and he did not force field it. 2 Sentries and start warping in more sentries when you are attacked is all that is needed to stop this.
I suppose this is what you get when you post a build on TL, gimpy. People just spew out easy solutions, but should the time come when they have to fend it themselves, they'd fall just as easily as the nonsense they're spewing out.
Its obvious that this build wont work every single time against a competent opponent, why do people keep posting how they won against this? There is NO BUILD in the world, that wins every time against a competent opponent, and there are many builds that are even easily countered and still used a ton by the best of the best (Cool can 6pool you too). This build is: 1.) Very easy to do 2.) Solid enough to win a fair share 3.) Fun! Nothing better then controlling that big blop of marines 4.) Extremely deadly in 3on3 and 4on4
Just think about Protosses who do their 4gates, noone competent loses to 4gate anymore and EVERYONE and their mom does it anyhows. This 6rax build is really cool, and i also got my friends to learn this first to get into SC2 with some wins so they can have fun. Now they are also learning other strategies, but why bother at the beginning of their gaming career?
Its a cool build if you are not sure in your endgame - this ends by 10-12minute anyways. Also your macro wont get better much but ur marine micro will and thats quite important imo.
On September 30 2010 19:30 tournamentnow wrote: I think this build counters hope torture's fast expand in tvt.
actually while watching GSL today i was secretly hoping for hopetorture to play this 6rax build, e.g. on Xel Naga, when his opponent scouted no early gas he mustve guessed it was the FE build, and a 6 rax build would have been a nice suprise
eh why why wait for 750 minerals to make 5 raxes really... Sure the not getting scouted thing is crucial to this strategy but you might as well proxy the other 5 raxes to do that.
By proxying 3-4 raxes somewhere and making them when you have the minerals (with 2 scv's) you are MUCH faster.
I've just tried this, its really powerful there was only one game that was sort of close against an early expand Zerg but it was just enough to win. I went 4W-0L in gold with it.
I died to this today and did my usual BM and so on. I have no idea why I misread it as a fast CC though since no one does that <_< should have just made a baneling nest
I've actually died to this twice with scouting using my normal build tvt because I thought I could hold it and it hit just before I had the forces to hold... (I normally go 1/1/2 tvt and go marine hellion banshee). This hits just as your banshees come out, before cloak most likely, and his 6 rax is enough to blow through a bunker faster than I could repair with 6 scvs.
I now know that if I scout this I have to go more into defense (multiple layers of bunkers or fast tanks, but without having played against it a few times, its quite unexpected how fast things go down to normal marines. This coming from a guy who's done 5 rax marine rushes a few times.
This is a stupid build, if you don't win on the spot you've lost as the only thing you can do is make some more marines. It can be used to get some easy wins but you won't be getting better at the game at all, just relying on luck and weirdness to reap a win. I wouldn't recommend doing this unless you're really in need of a win
On October 02 2010 04:32 Saechiis wrote: This is a stupid build, if you don't win on the spot you've lost as the only thing you can do is make some more marines. It can be used to get some easy wins but you won't be getting better at the game at all, just relying on luck and weirdness to reap a win. I wouldn't recommend doing this unless you're really in need of a win
Cheese is still a strategy nonetheless.. the purpose of thread wasn't to convince players that they would become better at the game.
Fact remains that some cheese is highly viable, even in high level of play. And regardless, through discussion of the build, weaknesses and counters could be revealed which WILL make players better at the game.
On October 02 2010 04:07 Roaming wrote: Similar to 6 rax reaper... but more all in and less damage? I dont get it.
Not even close to the same.
1.Requires zero gas 2.Harder to scout when enemy sees generic depot/rax/depot wall 3.More pure DPS then mass reaper 4.Rush comes out much faster
really the only similarity is your building a unit out of rax.
I haven't tested it, but just based on the build order i read:
1. Which is scouted. 2. Wrong, because i see you aren't getting gas, what else could you do 3. True but barely applicable. Aside from mara(which you cant build) and roach, reapers do more damage to all 1.5 units and buildings. 4. Not true. Reapers hit you first. Even with the upgrade.
Again, based on the build order im reading. Maybe overlooking something.
I feel your build is stronger if you continually add raxes, and go up to 18 SCVS (--> 2 per patch, plus ~2 building shit or mining). Yes, you'll reveal that you built a 2nd or 3rd barracks to the opponent's scout, but you'll also have more units (saving up to build 5 barracks at once is not inefficient), and I don't think 2-3 rax before gas is all that suspicious. (Maybe it is in 1v1, though.)
On October 02 2010 04:07 Roaming wrote: Similar to 6 rax reaper... but more all in and less damage? I dont get it.
Not even close to the same.
1.Requires zero gas 2.Harder to scout when enemy sees generic depot/rax/depot wall 3.More pure DPS then mass reaper 4.Rush comes out much faster
really the only similarity is your building a unit out of rax.
I haven't tested it, but just based on the build order i read:
1. Which is scouted. 2. Wrong, because i see you aren't getting gas, what else could you do 3. True but barely applicable. Aside from mara(which you cant build) and roach, reapers do more damage to all 1.5 units and buildings. 4. Not true. Reapers hit you first. Even with the upgrade.
Again, based on the build order im reading. Maybe overlooking something.
1. No gas early and only 1 rax scouted this looks like a 1 rax FE build which can make it worse for the opponent. 2.See #1 4.Marines require no lab or gas, how do reapers hit you first?
On October 02 2010 04:07 Roaming wrote: Similar to 6 rax reaper... but more all in and less damage? I dont get it.
Not even close to the same.
1.Requires zero gas 2.Harder to scout when enemy sees generic depot/rax/depot wall 3.More pure DPS then mass reaper 4.Rush comes out much faster
really the only similarity is your building a unit out of rax.
I haven't tested it, but just based on the build order i read:
1. Which is scouted. 2. Wrong, because i see you aren't getting gas, what else could you do 3. True but barely applicable. Aside from mara(which you cant build) and roach, reapers do more damage to all 1.5 units and buildings. 4. Not true. Reapers hit you first. Even with the upgrade.
Again, based on the build order im reading. Maybe overlooking something.
1. No gas early and only 1 rax scouted this looks like a 1 rax FE build which can make it worse for the opponent. 2.See #1 4.Marines require no lab or gas, how do reapers hit you first?
Expanding upon this:
You have more marines than you would reapers when you hit due to less downtime from not having to wait for tech lab build and far less build time. Marines also have slightly better range. Having a larger army also allows you to divide your forces more easily. Point is that it is most definitely different from reapers.
On October 02 2010 04:07 Roaming wrote: Similar to 6 rax reaper... but more all in and less damage? I dont get it.
Not even close to the same.
1.Requires zero gas 2.Harder to scout when enemy sees generic depot/rax/depot wall 3.More pure DPS then mass reaper 4.Rush comes out much faster
really the only similarity is your building a unit out of rax.
I haven't tested it, but just based on the build order i read:
1. Which is scouted. 2. Wrong, because i see you aren't getting gas, what else could you do 3. True but barely applicable. Aside from mara(which you cant build) and roach, reapers do more damage to all 1.5 units and buildings. 4. Not true. Reapers hit you first. Even with the upgrade.
Again, based on the build order im reading. Maybe overlooking something.
1. No gas early and only 1 rax scouted this looks like a 1 rax FE build which can make it worse for the opponent. 2.See #1 4.Marines require no lab or gas, how do reapers hit you first?
Expanding upon this:
You have more marines than you would reapers when you hit due to less downtime from not having to wait for tech lab build and far less build time. Marines also have slightly better range. Having a larger army also allows you to divide your forces more easily. Point is that it is most definitely different from reapers.
I agree it is different. You have more reapers because its 2 rak (into 4 [into 6]) vs 1 (into 6) and it hits first because you pretty much start sending reapers right away, where as this 6 rak build waits for my scouting scv to die, saves up 750 minerals (sometimes you say you scout after getting 750, but before throwing down gateways)
I know the point isnt these two builds 1v1ing, but wouldn't any early pressure (2gate, 2 rak reaper, 5 roach rush) roll this, because you sit on 1 rak for too long then spam out a bunch of rak. If the pressure shows up while you're building, arent you kinda screewed?
I played a ZvT against this, and when I saw no gas, I just laughed. 2-base baneling rapes this even more than 1-base baneling. Especially on Desert Oasis where it's fairly easy to defend your natural. Burrowed banelings do wonders.
I think it's a decent enough build, probably best against Toss if you hit early enough, or Z if they go anything besides banes. Still hilariously good on 3-4v4
I've been running this build for the last ~40 or so games, winning about 75% of those games, although I'm in gold league so take it with a grain of salt:
Some things that have stopped me: Good micro with stalkers + 4 gate Mass spinecrawler Other people running the same BO ;p Some games with good early roach and good micro Fast tanks and/or 2 quick factories
It's a pretty cheese build, I've had alot of rage quits ;p
Nice cheese build. I have enjoyed trying it. Especially like how its fairly stealthy against the scouting probe.. Problems for me have been banelings and early (but not too early) reapers scouting it.
Guys this build is a really really well basic on which you can take out players rated up to 1600-1700. I think it's also sad, for me beeing a zerg player essentially loving my race and trying hard, I can achieve way better results with this cheese playing offrace. This means bad game design to me(see Morrows thoughts..).
So lets talk about the matchups(kind of an expert guide i guess :D):
TvT: - you can let this build unmodified, attack at 43 supply - make sure you surprise him, move up and attack the bunker all at once. dont give him time to pull repair drones - in a lot of cases you wont kill a good enemy, but you can take out a bunch of scv's putting you into gamelead. From that on play a normal game. -make sure to spread out your barracks to avoid being scanned with 6rax -proxyrax are always good -save a scan for multi purpose, since a lot guys will have cloak banshees then or you just need vision uphill
-you absolutely DIE to proxyrax bunkerrushes and stuff like this so be aware
TvP: - you cant win vs good players with this build except for modifying it in my expierience - while upgrading to orbital build an extractor - use your first OR your kinda fast built second barracks to produce 3-4 marauders with concussive shells, dont mine more gas than you need for this -build an additional scv after orbital finished -build only 5 barracks total -attack at about 43 and add about 5-10 scvs for building bunkers or blocking -concussive shells are key! if you got no marauders left u cant kill anything -micro is key! you know what I mean, outrange and runaway from zealots -saving a scan might come in handy, but i'm not quite sure you really need it
TvZ: -to be honest, i do not really know how this build will work against zerg. It is really good if the zerg goes roach, which is stupid game design again but whatever... If the zerg goes mass ling with 2-3 banes your about being raped. -if you have really good precise tvz timings with this let me know, but there are surely alot of other cheap things to kill a zerg i'm sure (yeayea whine but so true)
Thanks OP. I have gone 13-4 in silver and finally being promoted to gold. My impression of this build:
1. It is great vs silver and gold league players. Not so against skilled players who micro well. 2. This build works very well vs zerg. Playing vs terran in maps with choke points is the worst match up. 3. This build does not have to be an all-in. I always build a refinery after the barracks are done and the initial round of 6 marines are made. This give you the option of tech-switch, or simply upgrading your marines for maximum efficiency, at the expense of very few marines. 4. Some may call this strategy cheesy, but how is it different than a zerg player making tons of lings and rush your base? Or a protoss player going 2-gate and make waves of zealots? It's just an opening build.
Once again, thanks a lot OP for helping out players in the lower leagues.
Really any all-in is pretty effective if you hit them with proper timing. This is no exception. But careful trying it against protoss as sentry FF/Stalker Micro can really stomp this.
At 1400+ diamond I held a 17 marine +11 SCV all-in with 4 Stalkers, 2 Zealots and Probes. If I had gotten a Sentry out (which I dont think I could have with proper marine timing push) and FF the ramp its pretty much gg right there.
GUYZ, PLZ, STOP USING THAT BUILD. try mine build, its the same, but better.
bonuses of my build:
1. u have gas so scouting of u is harded and u can use that assimilator to transit into factory 2. u have stimpack which is essential in combat with stalkers or banelings 3. u have fast reaper which can make good harras and get xel-naga tower so again: it makes hard to scout u SO: my build is the same, but it isn't all-in and has stimpack and combat shield which makes your marines much more effective. 4. u can't be cheesed cas u have fast reaper and wall. 5. u don't have to wait 750 mineralz and wasting time beeing scare of scouting.
PPS origanally there's no complete wall in my build. but i v added that in such brackets: []
9 rax (wall) 2 workers 11 gas the gas will be completed at the same time as rax. so after rax rdy: 11 orbital comand, transit two workers to gas (3 workers at gas totally) 11 supply (u build it with same worker which finishe rax), 11 tech lab
[add one more supply to complete wall]
now build two more workers and reaper, u ll have 13 workers and reaper = 14 supply. (14 doble rax) now build two more rax build marine and make stimpack after that, build marines and scv's non stop with priority to marines when 2 rax rdy = make reactors to both and produce mass marines after u queved two reactors = remove one scv from gas after u ll get 100 gas = remove all scv's from gas
when stimpack rdy, queve combat shields and move in attack and kill your opponent, if he is still alive (1 chance from 100) then build epx. after 2nd CC started=> start mining gas from two gases with 6 scv's and build factory. then go battlecruisers or any other tech u like.
GUYZ. why are u using OP's build, when theres much better build? try mine BO plz.
You used this build against me, I had no idea it was coming and was understandably infuriated. I had no idea I'd seen this before until I watched your replays and recognized your base takedown style. Could almost feel the rage returning. : b
Anyway... add me. I'd like to practice against this build if you don't mind. Evark@newgrounds.com
On October 04 2010 11:36 MegaTerran wrote: GUYZ, PLZ, STOP USING THAT BUILD. try mine build, its the same, but better.
bonuses of my build:
1. u have gas so scouting of u is harded and u can use that assimilator to transit into factory 2. u have stimpack which is essential in combat with stalkers or banelings 3. u have fast reaper which can make good harras and get xel-naga tower so again: it makes hard to scout u SO: my build is the same, but it isn't all-in and has stimpack and combat shield which makes your marines much more effective. 4. u can't be cheesed cas u have fast reaper and wall. 5. u don't have to wait 750 mineralz and wasting time beeing scare of scouting.
PPS origanally there's no complete wall in my build. but i v added that in such brackets: []
9 rax (wall) 2 workers 11 gas the gas will be completed at the same time as rax. so after rax rdy: 11 orbital comand, transit two workers to gas (3 workers at gas totally) 11 supply (u build it with same worker which finishe rax), 11 tech lab
[add one more supply to complete wall]
now build two more workers and reaper, u ll have 13 workers and reaper = 14 supply. (14 doble rax) now build two more rax build marine and make stimpack after that, build marines and scv's non stop with priority to marines when 2 rax rdy = make reactors to both and produce mass marines after u queved two reactors = remove one scv from gas after u ll get 100 gas = remove all scv's from gas
when stimpack rdy, queve combat shields and move in attack and kill your opponent, if he is still alive (1 chance from 100) then build epx. after 2nd CC started=> start mining gas from two gases with 6 scv's and build factory. then go battlecruisers or any other tech u like.
GUYZ. why are u using OP's build, when theres much better build? try mine BO plz.
You got temp-banned earlier in this thread for posting this... why would you do it again? I'm not trying to be a mini-mod, but start your own topic if you're going to say yours is much better than the OP's (and it isn't). The OP's strat gets no gas at all, so marines will come much faster. By the time your stimpack and combatshields is done, you've probably already missed the window of opportunity where you can attack with marines and do lots damage if unscouted (e.g. before siege tech is complete).
On October 04 2010 11:36 MegaTerran wrote: GUYZ, PLZ, STOP USING THAT BUILD. try mine build, its the same, but better.
bonuses of my build:
1. u have gas so scouting of u is harded and u can use that assimilator to transit into factory 2. u have stimpack which is essential in combat with stalkers or banelings 3. u have fast reaper which can make good harras and get xel-naga tower so again: it makes hard to scout u SO: my build is the same, but it isn't all-in and has stimpack and combat shield which makes your marines much more effective. 4. u can't be cheesed cas u have fast reaper and wall. 5. u don't have to wait 750 mineralz and wasting time beeing scare of scouting.
PPS origanally there's no complete wall in my build. but i v added that in such brackets: []
9 rax (wall) 2 workers 11 gas the gas will be completed at the same time as rax. so after rax rdy: 11 orbital comand, transit two workers to gas (3 workers at gas totally) 11 supply (u build it with same worker which finishe rax), 11 tech lab
[add one more supply to complete wall]
now build two more workers and reaper, u ll have 13 workers and reaper = 14 supply. (14 doble rax) now build two more rax build marine and make stimpack after that, build marines and scv's non stop with priority to marines when 2 rax rdy = make reactors to both and produce mass marines after u queved two reactors = remove one scv from gas after u ll get 100 gas = remove all scv's from gas
when stimpack rdy, queve combat shields and move in attack and kill your opponent, if he is still alive (1 chance from 100) then build epx. after 2nd CC started=> start mining gas from two gases with 6 scv's and build factory. then go battlecruisers or any other tech u like.
GUYZ. why are u using OP's build, when theres much better build? try mine BO plz.
You got temp-banned earlier in this thread for posting this... why would you do it again? I'm not trying to be a mini-mod, but start your own topic if you're going to say yours is much better than the OP's (and it isn't). The OP's strat gets no gas at all, so marines will come much faster. By the time your stimpack and combatshields is done, you've probably already missed the window of opportunity where you can attack with marines and do lots damage if unscouted (e.g. before siege tech is complete).
I cant open new topic, cas mods have crazy requiements for that. They want me to post good sides of strategy and counters, but its stupid! I'v posted all counters not in opening post, but a bit below in topic. And my topic was closed anyway. I m not little boy which makes homework. I just make perfect strtegies i m not the guy who makes nice colored posts where types counter and other stupid things for noobs. Any one who wants good strat - u have all to do it - complete BO. U dont need new topic for it.
If u make testing u ll see then in 5 rax build u ll have 13 rines at 5:30, and in my build u have stim and 13 rines at 6:00 and combat shield is queved. In 6 rax i think the timing will be even worse. But the OP dont have any timings! But his topic wasnt closed. When in my topic there were timings typed (but not in opening post, but does it matter?)
A player tried this on me yesterday. Despite me not hitting the scouting window (the build delay really works to advantage here) and doing a fast expand, I still managed to fend this off.
When his attack hit he had 21 marines, but my marine/marauder force managed to delay him (I had combat shields on my marines). He killed the expo CC, but got chopped down by the marine/tank/medivac/SCV force in my main. After that we were even econ wise, but I had the bigger army at that point AND the tech.
The proper response from me would have been to use my SCVs at the expansion to supplement my initial defense. I would have beaten off the rush at that point. So I am pretty "meh" on vanilla marine builds.
I cant open new topic, cas mods have crazy requiements for that. They want me to post good sides of strategy and counters, but its stupid!
TL's requirements aren't crazy. TL's rules are a big reason why people come here instead of sifting through all the trash on other forums. If you feel it is too much work, the Blizzard forums are always open to you.
I cant open new topic, cas mods have crazy requiements for that. They want me to post good sides of strategy and counters, but its stupid!
TL's requirements aren't crazy. TL's rules are a big reason why people come here instead of sifting through all the trash on other forums. If you feel it is too much work, the Blizzard forums are always open to you.
I dont need this forum. I v made my builds myself. U and others need my BO's. Cas they are cool.
I cant open new topic, cas mods have crazy requiements for that. They want me to post good sides of strategy and counters, but its stupid!
TL's requirements aren't crazy. TL's rules are a big reason why people come here instead of sifting through all the trash on other forums. If you feel it is too much work, the Blizzard forums are always open to you.
I dont need this forum. I v made my builds myself. U and others need my BO's. Cas they are cool.
I think you are a troll. Am i right?
Wait, let me guess your response:
"I r no trollz lol. I maek teh stratz. I R goot for tis forumz."
On October 05 2010 09:08 MegaTerran wrote: May be i m troll. It dosnt matter. U have BO. Try it. And when u ll rocket up in ladder u ll say that troll have given to u best strat ever.
Sorry. Best strat ever is a Planetary Fortress Wall-in of your opponent while you strait tech to BCs.
Just imo anyway... :D
On topic though... There seems to be some questions about the timings for this. I've done the 6 rax opening many times for fun and I can do a tutorial video for you guys if you want to see it. (although admittedly I'll feel silly putting that on my channel... heh)
On December 30 2010 05:15 Heighway wrote: Well when i play "normal" i lose
Don't play to win, play to get better. Maybe then you won't lose the games where you actually need strategy and skill . Pretty simple concept really. Cheesing for a quick win, or quick all-in builds is what is limiting the game, because players are too lazy to get better.
with the near standard 3 gate pressure going on that huk did very well at MLG I think would be able to take this cheese into a micro battle like pvp is. If I ever see t I'm going to fight it every step of the way while I try to get my expo kicking and get out a double forge into lot sentry but It'll still be a micro battle once stim gets into it.
It would be a savage macro/micro battle if pvt involved 5 rax vs 3 gate with either side making expos on the skin of their teeth and being forced to keep up on macro and micro would love watching that myself. would hate to play that beacuse I'd get scard about all that action going on.
Not a good build to do against Protoss anymore, I don't think. People figured out how to pressure, and you'll die to well-executed pressure. Not DIE, but you'll be scouted. Then you'll die.
On April 13 2011 12:02 Wolf wrote: Not a good build to do against Protoss anymore, I don't think. People figured out how to pressure, and you'll die to well-executed pressure. Not DIE, but you'll be scouted. Then you'll die.
How will the protoss scout this? His scouting probe should die by the marines or at least hold them out of your base and this comes waaaay before any chance of hallucination or observer.
On April 13 2011 12:02 Wolf wrote: Not a good build to do against Protoss anymore, I don't think. People figured out how to pressure, and you'll die to well-executed pressure. Not DIE, but you'll be scouted. Then you'll die.
How will the protoss scout this? His scouting probe should die by the marines or at least hold them out of your base and this comes waaaay before any chance of hallucination or observer.
I do this build quite a bit in team games. A lot of people don't actually believe that you can macro 6 raxes off one base, but you can, and it's crazy good IMO. I'm glad I don't run into it in 1v1s, but now that TLO did it, my luck may run out.
This build is much stronger if you open 2 Rax Orbital. You will have more marines and you will be able to pressure earlier (or be immune to pressure if the opponent wants to poke you early). Of course, the opponent will know you want to mess him around with marines at least a little bit.
In TvP, I suggest you instead do 1 Rax Marauder (w/conc) and then add a pile of raxes (+3-4) for marines. That way you can apply a little earlier pressure to keep the opponent honest, prevent Stalkers from eating away at your forces, etc.
Also, I think it's smarter and more stable to cut one rax and instead keep pumping SCVs. You can bring them with your push, and have the possibility of pulling back and continuing to play if you don't break the opponent. (Plus, SCVs can rush around things and block retreat paths, as well as screw with the opposing AI if you don't put them in attack mode.)
Note that there are two-base versions of mass marine builds, although you generally want at least Stim for that.
On April 13 2011 12:02 Wolf wrote: Not a good build to do against Protoss anymore, I don't think. People figured out how to pressure, and you'll die to well-executed pressure. Not DIE, but you'll be scouted. Then you'll die.
How will the protoss scout this? His scouting probe should die by the marines or at least hold them out of your base and this comes waaaay before any chance of hallucination or observer.
This looks pretty freaking hard for zerg to deal with if terran plays it right and makes the zerg feel comfortable by not putting up many spines/delaying ling speed.
Im surprised a thread from september was necroed due to TLO using it in the NASL. Well at least people have learned to the search function but this simple observation must be pointed out:
Did TLO get his idea from this random thread or did he similarly think up a mad mad mad out there build that just worked?
Yes, and from here on out I want everyone to refer to building workers as the "Voodoo double rainbow super happiness " strategy.
Seriously though, this is probably going to throw a lot of bronze-league terrans up ranks. Really easy to execute, harder for your opponent to defend than it is for you to pull off - all the makings of a great, blue-vein cheese-all in.
I do have a question in regards to fending it off as protoss - is it better to mass stalkers and sentries or sentries and zealots to fight this kind of mass marine play off? I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that people who do this will probably hit well before the first colossus is out, so that's probably not an option.
Ive been doing this for months but slighty different.
I feign 2 rax all in, let him kill2 scvs and 3 marines (try to build bunker). and drop 4 rax in your base as you push out.
He will kill your marines and 2 scvs, think hes safe to drone, and then you push 2 mins later with a shitload of marines, he will have like 10 speedlings or a few roaches and thats it. Otherwise if you just go straight 6 rax, he will wonder why you havent pressured and often be ready with a scouting overlord. But either way it tends to work better against zerg than protoss.
On April 13 2011 14:56 VoodooTissue wrote: Yes, and from here on out I want everyone to refer to building workers as the "Voodoo double rainbow super happiness " strategy.
Seriously though, this is probably going to throw a lot of bronze-league terrans up ranks. Really easy to execute, harder for your opponent to defend than it is for you to pull off - all the makings of a great, blue-vein cheese-all in.
I do have a question in regards to fending it off as protoss - is it better to mass stalkers and sentries or sentries and zealots to fight this kind of mass marine play off? I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that people who do this will probably hit well before the first colossus is out, so that's probably not an option.
From my experience of bio vs gateway skirmshes,stalkers with 1-3 zealots to tank damage and force rines to retreat/kite is most optimal.STalkers can also kite marines indefinitely.
Its not so difficult to scout, yesterday i won against a guy who did this build to me. At the time i didnt know it even existed so it was a surprise for me.
However i must say that when my drone reached his base and saw only 1 rax and zero gas i suspected something around the lines of fast expand or mass racks, there isnt anything else a terran can do with only minerals.
After you see with your ling that he isnt expanding, it like...duh.
By the way at below high platinum level i think this BO isnt an all in, as the other player wont normally have good macro either so just retreating with many marines and making an expo with bunkers can keep you defended until you get your eco up.
well you could fake a double raks or double gas and let him scout to make this stronger, but you will have to be really careful while moving out, as toss or zerg would have either a ling or a stalker in front of your base and would be prepared. But as seeing 1 raks without addon often means fast expand i guess people will fall alot for it until its done in a major tournament to remind people that this exists again ^.^ .
On April 13 2011 12:02 Wolf wrote: Not a good build to do against Protoss anymore, I don't think. People figured out how to pressure, and you'll die to well-executed pressure. Not DIE, but you'll be scouted. Then you'll die.
How will the protoss scout this? His scouting probe should die by the marines or at least hold them out of your base and this comes waaaay before any chance of hallucination or observer.
Zealot stalker poke will demolish this.
Not if you wall off.
If you wall, my zealot will be hitting at that, while my second stalker arrives. Two stalkers vs three (at most) marines isn't gonna hold up for long.
Not to mention that I should be able to scout no gas. If I scout no gas, there's NO way that I'm not going to pressure. It's all too easy. You need a bunker.
On April 13 2011 12:02 Wolf wrote: Not a good build to do against Protoss anymore, I don't think. People figured out how to pressure, and you'll die to well-executed pressure. Not DIE, but you'll be scouted. Then you'll die.
How will the protoss scout this? His scouting probe should die by the marines or at least hold them out of your base and this comes waaaay before any chance of hallucination or observer.
Zealot stalker poke will demolish this.
Not if you wall off.
If you wall, my zealot will be hitting at that, while my second stalker arrives. Two stalkers vs three (at most) marines isn't gonna hold up for long.
Not to mention that I should be able to scout no gas. If I scout no gas, there's NO way that I'm not going to pressure. It's all too easy. You need a bunker.
Who cares about this aspect, why would you ever do this build vs. a protoss in the first place? I've done this build many times, and only got it to work about 20% of the time v toss ; one forcefield at their ramp and you lose with this build.
While this build is alright vs. z, 2 raxing with all scvs pulled is much more effective v. toss.
=P I tried this build today in a TvT match on metropolis because I really wasn't in the mood for normal TvT. My opponent FE'd but scanned as soon as my marines left my base so he had 3 or 4 bunkers built by his natural the time I arrived. Luckily for me we spawned right next to each other so I created another 12 or so marines and then lifted off all 6 of my rax and landed them in his main. Then I just pumped from there while keeping pressure in the front with my initial army of marines. It worked out great although it was a hilarious match.
This build really shines in team games moreso than 1v1. It is especially useful to teach to your friends who are new at the game. This build can be picked up rather quickly, and your friend instantly turns into a pretty strong contributor in team games. Once they get the hang of that I like to have them cut down to 5 barracks and get gas (for stim and combat shields) instead.
You can keep introducing baby steps like this and they will slowly get better, while being a solid contributor from the start.
On April 13 2011 15:09 Teivospy wrote: as protoss why wouldnt you just forcefield your ramp off and not let them up
not all maps have ramps where you can forcefield easily, i had a terran do something like this to me. On scrap station came with ~30 marines 20 scvs at 6:30-7mins
On April 13 2011 12:02 Wolf wrote: Not a good build to do against Protoss anymore, I don't think. People figured out how to pressure, and you'll die to well-executed pressure. Not DIE, but you'll be scouted. Then you'll die.
How will the protoss scout this? His scouting probe should die by the marines or at least hold them out of your base and this comes waaaay before any chance of hallucination or observer.
Zealot stalker poke will demolish this.
Not if you wall off.
If you wall, my zealot will be hitting at that, while my second stalker arrives. Two stalkers vs three (at most) marines isn't gonna hold up for long.
Not to mention that I should be able to scout no gas. If I scout no gas, there's NO way that I'm not going to pressure. It's all too easy. You need a bunker.
Yes but while you're wailing away at my wall I have the time to get a bunker up to defend, and then im fine. All i need is 2 SCV's repairing and 1 building a bunker. You won't get through the wall in time to kill the bunker.
I agree that it's bad to do against protoss, but saying that the player would die to the zealot-stalker pressure is silly.
On April 13 2011 12:02 Wolf wrote: Not a good build to do against Protoss anymore, I don't think. People figured out how to pressure, and you'll die to well-executed pressure. Not DIE, but you'll be scouted. Then you'll die.
How will the protoss scout this? His scouting probe should die by the marines or at least hold them out of your base and this comes waaaay before any chance of hallucination or observer.
Zealot stalker poke will demolish this.
Not if you wall off.
If you wall, my zealot will be hitting at that, while my second stalker arrives. Two stalkers vs three (at most) marines isn't gonna hold up for long.
Not to mention that I should be able to scout no gas. If I scout no gas, there's NO way that I'm not going to pressure. It's all too easy. You need a bunker.
Yes but while you're wailing away at my wall I have the time to get a bunker up to defend, and then im fine. All i need is 2 SCV's repairing and 1 building a bunker. You won't get through the wall in time to kill the bunker.
I agree that it's bad to do against protoss, but saying that the player would die to the zealot-stalker pressure is silly.
Didn't I say you're not going to die? It's going to be obvious what you're doing. You're either going to be fast expanding or all-inning. Pretty to easy to figure out which if I keep scouting.
On April 13 2011 12:02 Wolf wrote: Not a good build to do against Protoss anymore, I don't think. People figured out how to pressure, and you'll die to well-executed pressure. Not DIE, but you'll be scouted. Then you'll die.
How will the protoss scout this? His scouting probe should die by the marines or at least hold them out of your base and this comes waaaay before any chance of hallucination or observer.
Zealot stalker poke will demolish this.
Not if you wall off.
If you wall, my zealot will be hitting at that, while my second stalker arrives. Two stalkers vs three (at most) marines isn't gonna hold up for long.
Not to mention that I should be able to scout no gas. If I scout no gas, there's NO way that I'm not going to pressure. It's all too easy. You need a bunker.
Yes but while you're wailing away at my wall I have the time to get a bunker up to defend, and then im fine. All i need is 2 SCV's repairing and 1 building a bunker. You won't get through the wall in time to kill the bunker.
I agree that it's bad to do against protoss, but saying that the player would die to the zealot-stalker pressure is silly.
I dont know what kind of zealot stalker pressure you've encountered before, but it's certainly not something high level enough that you would think you could get away with this.
On September 27 2010 16:35 DreamSailor wrote: See the thing is I wouldn't even consider this an all in.
If the build fails, there really isn't anything you can do to recover, so it is an all-in.
You don't have any gas, so the only thing you can produce is marines. With the amount of SCVs you have, you won't be able to support 5 rax while teching or expoing either unless you cut marine production which would probably work against you.
not really true. If you get a ton of damage done, the game stablizes. In the recent Jaedong Vs Flash, the zerg 4 pooled and got a whole bunch of scvs, equaling out the really aggressive build.
I am not trying to compare anything here, just proving a point that any "all in" build can be recovered from if you do a ton of damage and know exactly when to stop and start making up for the things you cut (scvs/econ/tech).
that still means the build has to do damage to be successful and that is an all in, essentially you are flipping a coin and hoping to do damage. But i do agree that this build has a really high % of success to do damage.
On April 13 2011 12:02 Wolf wrote: Not a good build to do against Protoss anymore, I don't think. People figured out how to pressure, and you'll die to well-executed pressure. Not DIE, but you'll be scouted. Then you'll die.
How will the protoss scout this? His scouting probe should die by the marines or at least hold them out of your base and this comes waaaay before any chance of hallucination or observer.
Zealot stalker poke will demolish this.
Not if you wall off.
If you wall, my zealot will be hitting at that, while my second stalker arrives. Two stalkers vs three (at most) marines isn't gonna hold up for long.
Not to mention that I should be able to scout no gas. If I scout no gas, there's NO way that I'm not going to pressure. It's all too easy. You need a bunker.
Yes but while you're wailing away at my wall I have the time to get a bunker up to defend, and then im fine. All i need is 2 SCV's repairing and 1 building a bunker. You won't get through the wall in time to kill the bunker.
I agree that it's bad to do against protoss, but saying that the player would die to the zealot-stalker pressure is silly.
I dont know what kind of zealot stalker pressure you've encountered before, but it's certainly not something high level enough that you would think you could get away with this.
1 zealot 1 stalker vs a build that cuts at 3 marines and saves up to 750 minerals could really criple the terran... if not end the game it would certainly tell you what he is doing.
On April 13 2011 12:53 Dromar wrote: I do this build quite a bit in team games. A lot of people don't actually believe that you can macro 6 raxes off one base, but you can, and it's crazy good IMO. I'm glad I don't run into it in 1v1s, but now that TLO did it, my luck may run out.
you can macro 7 raxes, in fact.
and 6rax isn't all in, because if you don't put addons, as you saturate, you will eventually have enough to expand.
7rax is closer to all-in, but even then, you can simply stop making marines while you attack, then expand and add some reactors/tech labs.
1rax with an addon is about equal to 2 naked rax in terms of production capacity (if you make marauders or marine + upgrades), but sticking to that general rule will help.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned earlier in this thread but have you tried StimmedProbe's Million Man Marine style? I've tried it before and the way you put on pressure is insane.
I enjoyed using this build a few months back in both 1s and team games. It worked very well in gold and platnum when I was new and had very little Terran experience. So, I agree that this is a good start for new friends, but I disagree with the thought that you cannot learn the game doing an all-in like this. Can you learn to be a pro doing 6-rax? No. But can you learn a lot of skills for how to move units, attack, macro while attacking, etc.? Yes. And can you use 6-rax as a pro on occassion? Apparently so!
versus protoss I find the 3rax no orbital stronger, you'll have 12-15 marines (+scvs if you want) vs 2 stalkers (and a 3th right when your at their ramp). I can only stop it by stopping probe production at 20, drop a total of 3gates, and move to the middle of the map with my 2stalkers to start kiting the marines already, I actually think its the same anti 4gate 3stalker build. If you dont kite them that soon I mostly just lose, cause they'll take out pylons/building so fast
On September 27 2010 17:03 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: Hmmm have you considered doing a 13 gas -> mining 100 gas and going back to minerals? This will make your opponent less suspicious of something fishy going on, and you can use the 100 gas to make 2 reactors instead of 2 barracks (saving you in total 125 minerals + barrack build time - gas building time - gas mining time).
This delays the push drasticly, there's obviously a reason for why you don't get reactors for this push, i've tried this push a bit, and i like to just fake a gas, it's worth it so you can catch your opponent off guard. Really helps.
Is this viable in TvT? I despise this mu and badly want some kind of decent one-base all in so I don't get bogged down in a two hour long tank/viking war. I tried it today but one good scan and it seems gg.
This is viable in TvT, yes. I have won using this against 1. Blue flame + bunker 2. Siege mode tank 3. banshees. Only way people have held it off is double bunkers and siege mode tanks (In same game) because i missmicroed and he got in my base and scouted :/
This isn't too viable against Terran... They WILL scout it, and will put down 2-3 bunkers.
Once their siege is up and running, it's game.
This build is strongest against zergs that play the standard 15 hatch. Catch them offguard, and they're screwed, even with 2-3 sunkens up. (mix a few scv in with your 15 marines, while rallying to their base).
On April 17 2011 15:52 brobear wrote: This isn't too viable against Terran... They WILL scout it, and will put down 2-3 bunkers.
Once their siege is up and running, it's game.
This build is strongest against zergs that play the standard 15 hatch. Catch them offguard, and they're screwed, even with 2-3 sunkens up. (mix a few scv in with your 15 marines, while rallying to their base).
Works great in masters.
Why will they scout? You can place the rax in a way that scans won't hit em.
On April 17 2011 15:52 brobear wrote: This isn't too viable against Terran... They WILL scout it, and will put down 2-3 bunkers.
Once their siege is up and running, it's game.
This build is strongest against zergs that play the standard 15 hatch. Catch them offguard, and they're screwed, even with 2-3 sunkens up. (mix a few scv in with your 15 marines, while rallying to their base).
Works great in masters.
Why will they scout? You can place the rax in a way that scans won't hit em.
yup, but if scan doesn't hit anything it will be extra suspicious and your opponent will build bunker straight away. marines without stim are just really bad against wall off + bunker so it's just instant loss.
On April 17 2011 19:51 3xiLe wrote: Putting your marines at the naturals choke would be a great way to intercept an scv (as he'll most likely check to see if you're getting an expo up no gas) and implying that you're going for a fast gasless no expo.
He will do one of two things:
try punish: Punishing Timing Pushes will proably be intended to strike right after this all in hits, so no that should not work.
Expand: gg
if he does neither and techs obliviously and doesnt react, you should be in an even better position than against punishments, but slightly worse against expanding. common sense i guess >.>
Problem is that you can't really be sure that he's gonna think that you're going for fast expo. It may be a case on big maps but on those maps this push is late and isn't that viable. On small maps terran won't really be thinking that you're crazy enough to go fast expo. Second thing is, scan is huge, it covers most of the main base. If your opponent scans and sees no cc building in your main I seriously doubt he will think that you're building it in your nat instead of floating it there.
Terran players know what kind of cheeses other terrans can make and therefor they can stop this easily. Repairing bunker > marines. Even pulling some scvs while producing anything > marines.
This is viable TvZ counter 15 hatch build. In TvT repairing bunker ownz this. In TvP forcefields own this. Protoss will hold his ramp till the end of the world while having much stronger economy and tech.
On April 17 2011 15:52 brobear wrote: This isn't too viable against Terran... They WILL scout it, and will put down 2-3 bunkers.
Once their siege is up and running, it's game.
This build is strongest against zergs that play the standard 15 hatch. Catch them offguard, and they're screwed, even with 2-3 sunkens up. (mix a few scv in with your 15 marines, while rallying to their base).
Works great in masters.
Why will they scout? You can place the rax in a way that scans won't hit em.
I've found that in most maps, hiding 6 rax vs scan and scout scv is super hard...
And once he sees no gas he'll probably react with bunkers after scouting no CC building.
I've just started to play terran (via random) in 1v1 and I'm 2-0 on ladder against P and Z doing something very poorly resembling this. If you wouldn't mind giving me a few pointers on execution?
I feel like I'm floating mad minerals or that my barracks timings are just awful. Do you have any tips on how I might better manage my macro in these opening minutes?
I tried to run this strat blind in 10 straight diamond games. Won 4 lost 6...
Losses were mainly due to:
Zerg seeing no gas and dropping a baneling nest. Zerg just blindly dropping a baneling nest and me getting owned by it. Terran with 1 (ONE) seige tank. Toss with FF.
Question about zergs that go banelings... is it worth it to keep massing marines and keeping the pressure up? I don't know zerg mechanics, are banelings expensive, or can I out-mass him with marines eventually? Because after the first initial wave hits, I only have a stream of ~6 marines after each production wave... so I thought of adding more barracks, scvs, and depots but wasn't sure if I would ever eventually overwhelm the zerg.
On April 19 2011 23:07 YakiSOBA wrote: I tried to run this strat blind in 10 straight diamond games. Won 4 lost 6...
Losses were mainly due to:
Zerg seeing no gas and dropping a baneling nest. Zerg just blindly dropping a baneling nest and me getting owned by it. Terran with 1 (ONE) seige tank. Toss with FF.
Question about zergs that go banelings... is it worth it to keep massing marines and keeping the pressure up? I don't know zerg mechanics, are banelings expensive, or can I out-mass him with marines eventually? Because after the first initial wave hits, I only have a stream of ~6 marines after each production wave... so I thought of adding more barracks, scvs, and depots but wasn't sure if I would ever eventually overwhelm the zerg.
I dont understand what kind of zerg drops a baneling nest when he sees no gas.
Pretty much everyone does hatch first, and that first 100 gas IS going to ling speed, but 2rax hits way before that; thats the thing, when we scout no gas, we think "2rax", not this BS. I usually save larvae for one spine and 6 lings + more if necessary, and dont even PUT guys on gas until I have held off the 2rax.
I think you're just losing to 11/13pool banelings or something. which is an extremely all-in way to play, unless you are seriously messing up your timings on this.
I dont understand what kind of zerg drops a baneling nest when he sees no gas.
Pretty much everyone does hatch first, and that first 100 gas IS going to ling speed, but 2rax hits way before that; thats the thing, when we scout no gas, we think "2rax", not this BS. I usually save larvae for one spine and 6 lings + more if necessary, and dont even PUT guys on gas until I have held off the 2rax.
I think you're just losing to 11/13pool banelings or something. which is an extremely all-in way to play, unless you are seriously messing up your timings on this.
If you see no gas -> you think 2rax -> minute without attack -> you think it's this BS and drop bnest
Timing for this is about 6th minute mark, you can drop baneling nest, tons of lings, spine crawlers, whatever.
On April 17 2011 03:43 Turenne wrote: Is this viable in TvT? I despise this mu and badly want some kind of decent one-base all in so I don't get bogged down in a two hour long tank/viking war. I tried it today but one good scan and it seems gg.
Dunno if someone posted it already but i think you can mess with your opponents minds, catching them totally offguard if you let them just scout a 1-2rax no gas FE.
You smell what I'm cooking!
Since you save up 750 Minerals anyways, you could just show him that expo. Make sure not to kill the scout or force it to completely retreat before it sees the CC. After he scouted FE you just chase it away, cancel the expo right away and get your rax started.
You might even pretend to build a delayed raffinery and also cancel it when the scout is forced to leave your main towards your natural. Dunno if this will really work (but im sure it will, at least in Plat and maybe lower Dia) and how much it weakens the push but you lull them into a false sense of security so they wont expect any early agression at all.
On May 06 2011 05:38 reyk wrote: I regret to inform all of the great people in this thread that my favorite form of cheese, the 6rax, has been removed from the sc2 liquipedia.
Couldn't find a reason for this/ didn't understand the deletion log.
I was wondering if anyone has tried this play as a proxy, and if so if there are any replays.
I was experimenting with this build earlier with a few teammates, and it's obviously quite strong on short distances, but it is defendable on longer distances, especially if your opponent scouts it.
So ya, proxies rock. Anyone have anything, or even better a GM level player doing it?
I'm doing and 5 rax and expanding behind it in high diamond and I've been dominating zergs lately. If i don't kill him right away it does enormous amounts of damage even on shakuras if not scouted.
The 6rax on liquipidia was a cheese where you built a barracks on 6 supply, not 6 barracks. It is no longer possible with depot requirement. I think the FE fake and cancel has promise. I'll try it out.
"Very strong and versatile cheese" - original poster.... versatile cheese sounds like a complete oxymoron. by nature, cheese is not versatile. it's one path that has a specific regiment and a specific goal with absolutely no means to of continuing the game if it fails. just thought i'd point that out.
On May 07 2011 17:16 ZUR1CH wrote: "Very strong and versatile cheese" - original poster.... versatile cheese sounds like a complete oxymoron. by nature, cheese is not versatile. it's one path that has a specific regiment and a specific goal with absolutely no means to of continuing the game if it fails. just thought i'd point that out.
its comparatively versatile compared to other cheese
On May 07 2011 17:16 ZUR1CH wrote: "Very strong and versatile cheese" - original poster.... versatile cheese sounds like a complete oxymoron. by nature, cheese is not versatile. it's one path that has a specific regiment and a specific goal with absolutely no means to of continuing the game if it fails. just thought i'd point that out.
its comparatively versatile compared to other cheese
That's because marines pew pew everything ground and air
It is actually quite bad when you learn how to abuse their (5) range.
Faster 3 Rax proxy attacks feel stronger in TvT and the proxy 2 Rax which Boxer has down to an art form feels better in TvZ
On May 07 2011 23:26 Antisocialmunky wrote: The thing is, if you're not zerg, getting 2 cannons or 1 bunker with repair in a good spot will shut down a 6 rax so easily.
Well, since u get an marine out u can deny scouting very easy, and it's very rare for a protoss to just make 2 random cannons.. oO
On May 07 2011 23:26 Antisocialmunky wrote: The thing is, if you're not zerg, getting 2 cannons or 1 bunker with repair in a good spot will shut down a 6 rax so easily.
Well, since u get an marine out u can deny scouting very easy, and it's very rare for a protoss to just make 2 random cannons.. oO
Its not so much 'this is how you counter it' but more like 'all you need to counter this is 2 cannons'. A few stalkers work just as well and with sentries completely nullifies this. 6 Rax comes out pretty slow compared to other silly stuff.
wait..how does a zerg fight this? i just got destroyed by this on ladder and had absolutely no idea it was coming. I guess roaches and banelings would be good, but how do I even know if this kind of thing is coming?
On May 07 2011 06:41 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: I was wondering if anyone has tried this play as a proxy, and if so if there are any replays.
I was experimenting with this build earlier with a few teammates, and it's obviously quite strong on short distances, but it is defendable on longer distances, especially if your opponent scouts it.
So ya, proxies rock. Anyone have anything, or even better a GM level player doing it?
hmm, i'll have to try it some time, but maybe lifting your racks to the low ground could be good, it'd cut down reinforce time a few seconds and not leave you with barracks too far away from your main, against zerg it'd set you up nicely to expand with a nice wall or barracks... Hmmm, off to ladder, just have to worry about roaches I think...
On May 08 2011 17:26 KimJongChill wrote: wait..how does a zerg fight this? i just got destroyed by this on ladder and had absolutely no idea it was coming. I guess roaches and banelings would be good, but how do I even know if this kind of thing is coming?
Well, the fact that they didn't get gas would stand out to me as a touch fishy. After that... get lucky?
I tried this a little bit against Protoss und Zerg. Against Zerg it worked really well, but both Protoss players just forcefielded their ramp. Then they rolled me with Colossus. Is there any way to deal with forcefields on the ramp?
This "strategy" is really painful vs low APM Protoss.
Of course, if you know it's coming, you can use a non-standard build (like forge first) and it will be ok with a wall and 2 cannons, but what can be done after a classic "gate-robo-gate" opening when you were not able to pass the terran wall to scout, and you only guess it's coming after you poke with the first stalker ?
I know there are several threads, and advices about this, but is there a replay somewhere where this kind of marine push is defended ? Some people says "don't use sentries, only CB stalkers", some others say "just do some FF", so what ? Could you just show me a demo ?
If some Protoss is able to defend this, I'm ok to play as Terran so he can show me !
On May 08 2011 17:26 KimJongChill wrote: wait..how does a zerg fight this? i just got destroyed by this on ladder and had absolutely no idea it was coming. I guess roaches and banelings would be good, but how do I even know if this kind of thing is coming?
2-3 Spine crawlers 3+ queens for imba creep spread Slow Blings on creep > marines without stim
but it seems like roaches did just fine for sheth vs TLO in the NASL a week ago. if you don't have roach warren or bling nest up though, spines seem to be your best shot.
On May 12 2011 21:44 Tristan107 wrote: This "strategy" is really painful vs low APM Protoss.
Of course, if you know it's coming, you can use a non-standard build (like forge first) and it will be ok with a wall and 2 cannons, but what can be done after a classic "gate-robo-gate" opening when you were not able to pass the terran wall to scout, and you only guess it's coming after you poke with the first stalker ?
I know there are several threads, and advices about this, but is there a replay somewhere where this kind of marine push is defended ? Some people says "don't use sentries, only CB stalkers", some others say "just do some FF", so what ? Could you just show me a demo ?
If some Protoss is able to defend this, I'm ok to play as Terran so he can show me !
Poke with first zealot/stalker to see marines only/no addons. That means either heavy teching or marine allin. So, go contain him with stalkers. If he's teching there's no downside to this, your units just chill at his ramp with the occasional poke to see what's going on. If he's marine allining, this allows you to shoot his marines all the way back to your base.
If you really aren't comfortable with the stalker/marine dance you can also get a sentry/rest stalkers and try split his marines when they go up the ramp. The first way is definitely better if you can do it though.
I can do "hit'n'run" with stalkers, but I can't macro while doing hit'n'run (not many silver players can), and when marines reach your base, they can split and target your pylons or your probes.
So if you can hold this, can you show me a replay, or defend it against me ? (Tristan.874 on SC2)
I do something similiar, but rather 1rax FE no gas, then put up 4 more rax and rine spam with fast upgrades, sacc groups of rines like mad, grab a third and eventually get 2ports making banshees. Funny as hell.
On May 08 2011 18:09 phaib wrote: I tried this a little bit against Protoss und Zerg. Against Zerg it worked really well, but both Protoss players just forcefielded their ramp. Then they rolled me with Colossus. Is there any way to deal with forcefields on the ramp?
TLO, during his 24h charity marathon, killed a FF'ing P by floating his 6 rax into his base. If they tech to Colossus, they apparently die.
Hint, it's great to float the 6 rax into a T base when in close air positions (or if you proxy). There are very few things that can kill 6 marines that early when they are built inside your base, continuously.
On May 08 2011 18:09 phaib wrote: I tried this a little bit against Protoss und Zerg. Against Zerg it worked really well, but both Protoss players just forcefielded their ramp. Then they rolled me with Colossus. Is there any way to deal with forcefields on the ramp?
TLO, during his 24h charity marathon, killed a FF'ing P by floating his 6 rax into his base. If they tech to Colossus, they apparently die.
Hint, it's great to float the 6 rax into a T base when in close air positions (or if you proxy). There are very few things that can kill 6 marines that early when they are built inside your base, continuously.
Reminded me of boxers paratrooper play against that some zerg on lost temple or python
i believe that if the Terran executes this properly(without many mistakes), any travel distance shorter or equal to the maps like xelnaga, it is an instant gg. i believe Catz lost 2 games in a row to something like this in nasl (i saw a lol pic about him raging after some nasl matches).
edit: I was talking the case of TvZ. in short travel distance map, the marines will 'outproduce' you no matter what you do - if he didnt win by the first attack you will be dead anyway if he brings the second wave marines.
On ladder, all this is is a retty good way to make sure you never improve your understanding of the game
But aside, I'd think this would be a very good build to use on ladder if you hit a random race player, as you could commit to something that is strong no matter what you scout. And of course it has it's place in a boX series
Wow this is such an abusive strategy. Of course it would involve mass marines though. Now I know why so many terrans have been doing this to me lately. How do you stop/scout this? Before if they didn't attack me I assumed they just did a 2rax expand, so I droned up accordingly. But now I have to guess if they are doing a 2rax expand, or this? It's impossible to know the difference if they put marines in front of their nat, and you also can't scout them with an overlord. What is the proper way to detect this and counter it?
On June 16 2011 04:51 Alejandrisha wrote: On ladder, all this is is a retty good way to make sure you never improve your understanding of the game
But aside, I'd think this would be a very good build to use on ladder if you hit a random race player, as you could commit to something that is strong no matter what you scout. And of course it has it's place in a boX series
This is exactly what this kind of build is good for. Let's be honest, nobody in diamond or below is really good enough at all three races to be random (and from my experience just likes cheesing with whatever race they get) so just take advantage of their lower skill ability to eek out the points they were trying to take from you.
And in a BoX series, this is a pretty decent way to try and frustrate an opponent and/or get yourself off tilt and back into the series.
Had to search it to find out if anyone else had done it.
Jesus christ people. Cheese is all well and good, but I just played a 20 minute game where all he did was rally marines to my base. Literally all I could do was keep morphing roaches and banelings, and ended up ragequitting because I knew there was no way I'd be able to expand, so I'd end up starving to death.
On July 10 2011 22:30 SwitchAUS wrote: Just had this done to me -.-
Had to search it to find out if anyone else had done it.
Jesus christ people. Cheese is all well and good, but I just played a 20 minute game where all he did was rally marines to my base. Literally all I could do was keep morphing roaches and banelings, and ended up ragequitting because I knew there was no way I'd be able to expand, so I'd end up starving to death.
why would you make roaches vs marine only on 1 base?
On July 10 2011 22:43 lindn wrote: why would you make roaches vs marine only on 1 base?
You need to be spending all of your money vs. a 6 rax to beat it--- and since banelings are largely useless roach/ling is the best response. You could also go spine/ling, but roach/ling is ideal.
i think one way to make this build EXTREMELY annoying is to get a gas which allows you to go marine reactor which seriously makes it look like some kind of reactor expand (not an allin)
you deny scouting then stop mining gas after 150 and you use your first rax to make all 3 reactors after the marine to deny scouting. should hit almost the same time, almost unscoutable
EDIT: heck i thought of an even better idea. stop mining gas at 150, make 2 reactors 1 tech lab and since the techlab is faster you save time that the third reactor would kill. have enough SCV's mining gas to pump marauders out of 1 rax and this should heavily counter the nonspeed banes and stalkers or roaches
On July 11 2011 13:30 roymarthyup wrote: i think one way to make this build EXTREMELY annoying is to get a gas which allows you to go marine reactor which seriously makes it look like some kind of reactor expand (not an allin)
you deny scouting then stop mining gas after 150 and you use your first rax to make all 3 reactors after the marine to deny scouting. should hit almost the same time, almost unscoutable
EDIT: heck i thought of an even better idea. stop mining gas at 150, make 2 reactors 1 tech lab and since the techlab is faster you save time that the third reactor would kill. have enough SCV's mining gas to pump marauders out of 1 rax and this should heavily counter the nonspeed banes and stalkers or roaches
The whole point of building 6 barracks is so that you have no extra money for anything BUT marines. When you add 2 reactors and a tech lab it starts to look more like the http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3Rax_Stim .
EPT
) and we all love it alot 
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