Hello, My name is lolp and I've recently made two guides[http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267242] and [http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=265947]. Since I've done TvP and TvZ I figured I'll finish it off with a TvT. P.S I'm a low-mid masters player depending on the week and my play time!
This build is not meant to be some fancy timing push into standard play like my other two guides, as I feel in TvT good players will almost always force it into a late game. The idea behind this guide is to give you a set up into a position where you can play out a late game. I can't tell you where to position your tanks, where to place every turret 30 minutes into the game, when to attack into a sige line and when to not. I can however help you get into a position where you can make those choices and get there safely with a solid idea behind your play.
So before we get into build order numbers, lets talk about the fundamentals of the build. One of the most important parts of mech TvT is your air control. If it's mech vs mech you really, really, really want air control. Don't ever lose it because if you do it's very unlikely you're getting it back with out getting behind. There is way too many benefits not to get it, throw in a banshee or two, bc's late game, landing vikings at bases, drop ship pick offs. The list is endless.
Secondly your production, as a rule of thumb for every added base add two more factorys, one with reactor and one with tech lab. If you really start to go late game you may need extra rector ports to keep air control, you can base that on his viking counts
Thirdly, know your scan timings and ebay timings. I suggest scanning at 6:00-6:30 and if you can't almost certainly deduce he's not going cloaked banshees just get a ebay asap. You can't deal with non stop production cloaked banshees with out a raven or turrets, vikings and scans just wont cut it with out putting you behind.
Lastly, patience. Do not get over eager to take a expansion uber early because you have one seige tank defending it, wait till your army can cover enough territory to do so. Other wise you might be split up so much they just drop your main you have to send too many units to go save it they kill your 3rd or siege your natural.. or both.
Build order 10 depot 11 gas 13 barracks 16 factory [as soon as barracks finishes] 16 orbital [build tech lab on barracks] 18 supply depot switch factory with barracks to put it on tech lab, research blue flame + build hellion build non stop hellions and depots as needed 27 CC in-base[build ENG bay directly when CC finishes if needed based on scan, 6:00 is around when you want to scan] 32 food starport
from here is where you go into standard play. add on two factorys and reactor one and tech lab the other. my rule of thumb is if my macro is good i can do 1.5 factorys per a base with upgrades and turrets and depots and vikings and so forth. Try to add two factorys per a base, one reactor hellions one siege tanks.
Scan between 6:00-6:30, if you cant deduce banshees are not coming throw down an immediate eng bay and turrets, save scans in case not done in time. If you see them going blue flame drop, just keep your blue flames at home for defense and kill the drop ship with the viking. It should put them behind, don't rush 1 tank out and have it chase around the hellions why they wreak havoc in your base. If it's clearly a 1 base all in, delay with mass hellion by harassing their minerals or microing back and forth with blue flame and marines.
Replays:
A video of me explaining the build. The opener is meant to a safe and general opener with very little deviation and the small deviations possible are explained in detail. For this reason I felt it was unnecessary and would be unable to do so due to time constraints to play and upload 20 replays of such a build. http://replayfu.com/r/wmGKzh - MVPKeen doing a very similar build.
I've decided since I had a few request I would offer some coaching. I'm a 950-1000 NA[current season] Masters Terran player who has played all three races to masters in order to gain a better understanding of them.
I'm able to help diamond and below players get into a higher league and give them a better understanding of the game and how to improve rather than teach them just one build only with no other help.
I charge $7.25 USD/Hour[minimum wage in my state] and have no problem going the extra mile to help you get better. I guarantee a refund if you're not satisfied so you have nothing to lose!
I prepare my lessons ahead of time from your email in order to make our time as efficient as possible so if you're interested in my coaching service please send a email to: lolptvcoaching@live.com with the following information:
[currently only do Terran and Protoss] Race played: League/rank in league: What match up you have the most trouble with: Current strategy's you try to use[if any]: The style you like most:[Macro or Timing/micro based play] Replays: Upload a few replays of games you've played that you have questions about.[http://replayfu.com/] Other notes: Any notes you would like me to know about such as specific questions or things you would like to work on so I can prepare answers and things before hand for you to make your time more efficient. Time/date you want coaching: I can coach at almost any time, even graveyard times. Skype/msn/aim/icq/yim/ to contact you at easier: [you can contact me at jakeslc555 on AIM if you need to contact me fast]
When first trying out mech, keep practicing it. The first time will be hard and it will take a lot of getting use to and you might even want to make slight changes of the build on your own. Keep the basics and keep trying!
One thing I cannot stress enough is that when going mech, you HAVE to react to what your opponent is doing during the first 10 minutes. If you're doing a hellion based opener and your opponent is going for an early tank/marine push (as is extremely common in Platinum), you have to react to it. If your oppnent is going for a cloaked banshee build, viking + raven is an excellent combo and you can use the tech lab for one of your later factories.
Depending on when you scout a tank push (the 6:20-6:30 scan is the perfect timing, as has been said) and what kind of infrastructure you have, either keep making hellions and get a banshee - if you kill the marines, the tanks are free kills - or get tanks + siege mode yourself.
If you like FE builds I'd highly recommend a 15 gas 1 rax FE, as it lets you get a CC up without delaying your factory too long. If you look at Demuslim's video archive on his stream you'll find older videos where he does this opener.
I find the biggest problem with going mech to be the minerals/gas balance - hellions are your mineral dump and to make them you need factories, which cost gas... so you can get in an iffy spot when it comes to spending your money if you're forced to make tanks earlier than planned, as in this game (disclaimer: high platinum level game, I was late with both the CC and factory because I got distracted, cc should be down @ ~3:46 and the factory @ ~4:03):
Important note: If you're going mech, don't skimp on air control! Thors work decently, but currently I prefer using air units, as they also give vision for your siege tanks.
On September 25 2011 06:42 Maxie wrote: One thing I cannot stress enough is that when going mech, you HAVE to react to what your opponent is doing during the first 10 minutes. If you're doing a hellion based opener and your opponent is going for an early tank/marine push (as is extremely common in Platinum), you have to react to it. If your oppnent is going for a cloaked banshee build, viking + raven is an excellent combo and you can use the tech lab for one of your later factories.
Depending on when you scout a tank push (the 6:20-6:30 scan is the perfect timing, as has been said) and what kind of infrastructure you have, either keep making hellions and get a banshee - if you kill the marines, the tanks are free kills - or get tanks + siege mode yourself.
If you like FE builds I'd highly recommend a 15 gas 1 rax FE, as it lets you get a CC up without delaying your factory too long. If you look at Demuslim's video archive on his stream you'll find older videos where he does this opener.
I find the biggest problem with going mech to be the minerals/gas balance - hellions are your mineral dump and to make them you need factories, which cost gas... so you can get in an iffy spot when it comes to spending your money if you're forced to make tanks earlier than planned, as in this game (disclaimer: high platinum level game, I was late with both the CC and factory because I got distracted, cc should be down @ ~3:46 and the factory @ ~4:03):
Important note: If you're going mech, don't skimp on air control! Thors work decently, but currently I prefer using air units, as they also give vision for your siege tanks.
Good OP btw.
I suggest in the video to non stop produce hellions for a while, as blue flame hellions can hold nearly any push. The only way a marine tank early push defeats this build is if they sit the hellions in their base and don't move an inch. If you use them to move around the map and watch towers, you will see them coming and can micro your hellions to kill off the bio units. I don't claim for this to be an easy way to play TvT but I don't think there is a easy way if you ever want to get out of lower leagues.
Worse case they do some form of 1 base all in and you have to pull a hand full of scvs to defend and they'll only have one CC and you should be fine.
Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers.
On September 25 2011 06:42 Maxie wrote: One thing I cannot stress enough is that when going mech, you HAVE to react to what your opponent is doing during the first 10 minutes. If you're doing a hellion based opener and your opponent is going for an early tank/marine push (as is extremely common in Platinum), you have to react to it. If your oppnent is going for a cloaked banshee build, viking + raven is an excellent combo and you can use the tech lab for one of your later factories.
Depending on when you scout a tank push (the 6:20-6:30 scan is the perfect timing, as has been said) and what kind of infrastructure you have, either keep making hellions and get a banshee - if you kill the marines, the tanks are free kills - or get tanks + siege mode yourself.
If you like FE builds I'd highly recommend a 15 gas 1 rax FE, as it lets you get a CC up without delaying your factory too long. If you look at Demuslim's video archive on his stream you'll find older videos where he does this opener.
I find the biggest problem with going mech to be the minerals/gas balance - hellions are your mineral dump and to make them you need factories, which cost gas... so you can get in an iffy spot when it comes to spending your money if you're forced to make tanks earlier than planned, as in this game (disclaimer: high platinum level game, I was late with both the CC and factory because I got distracted, cc should be down @ ~3:46 and the factory @ ~4:03):
Important note: If you're going mech, don't skimp on air control! Thors work decently, but currently I prefer using air units, as they also give vision for your siege tanks.
Good OP btw.
I suggest in the video to non stop produce hellions for a while, as blue flame hellions can hold nearly any push. The only way a marine tank early push defeats this build is if they sit the hellions in their base and don't move an inch. If you use them to move around the map and watch towers, you will see them coming and can micro your hellions to kill off the bio units. I don't claim for this to be an easy way to play TvT but I don't think there is a easy way if you ever want to get out of lower leagues.
Worse case they do some form of 1 base all in and you have to pull a hand full of scvs to defend and they'll only have one CC and you should be fine.
Easy way to get out of the lower leagues is simply to open 1 rax FE and beat them with vastly superior macro and tank control/positioning. If you go mech, then just a BFH drop into expansion into mech with superior macro and tank control/positioning. In TvT, just knowing how to properly use your tanks settles the game pretty easily. Granted, it won't necessarily be a short game unless you crush them with drops or a 2 base timing, but it will be a relatively easy game as your skills won't be strained.
MIcroing your Hellions is a great way to crush the push, but pulling off a few to destroy their mineral line should also be done since they can't reinforce or might even decide to pull back.
And yes... Blue Flame Hellions controlled properly basically holds off any push in TvT (which is why they got nerfed). Even if it doesn't completely clean up the push, it gives you enough time to get up Tanks with Siege Mode and more Hellions, which should clean up the rest unless they have Banshees with it (then you need Vikings).
On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote: Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers.
I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think.
I suggest in the video to non stop produce hellions for a while, as blue flame hellions can hold nearly any push. The only way a marine tank early push defeats this build is if they sit the hellions in their base and don't move an inch. If you use them to move around the map and watch towers, you will see them coming and can micro your hellions to kill off the bio units. I don't claim for this to be an easy way to play TvT but I don't think there is a easy way if you ever want to get out of lower leagues.
Worse case they do some form of 1 base all in and you have to pull a hand full of scvs to defend and they'll only have one CC and you should be fine.
I'll try doing so in a future game where something similar happens, holding it off with hellion/marine alone would certainly allow me to get a better infrastructure rolling than going straight for siege tanks... but going for them still worked out decently. Taking out the marines should be possible with hellions, but I'm still quite worried about the tanks.
A question regarding mech: how important are upgrades? Should they be a priority?
since this thread is about mech could anyone who goes for a mech build similar to the one in the OP with a moderately fast expand post replays of them holding off and beating the 1/1/1 marine/tank/banshee all? i would really appreciate that since i have kind of a hard time versus the 111 even if i go bio or biomech or pure mech.
since this thread is about mech could anyone who goes for a mech build similar to the one in the OP with a moderately fast expand post replays of them holding off and beating the 1/1/1 marine/tank/banshee all? i would really appreciate that since i have kind of a hard time versus the 111 even if i go bio or biomech or pure mech.
I'll try and get one later - it's all about killing marines with hellions as they try to push up to your base. You can't let them siege up right out side your base while killing zero units.
So I read this thread and felt inspired. I got on the ladder making the plan to do this build if I end up playing any tvts (which rarely happen to me, thank god. lol.)
Anyways, I got two TvT's back to back and tried to pull this strategy off. If I recall it was a gas first blue flame opening + expo and just kinda... making tanks and hellions and vikings. Both games are on Shattered temple w/o close positions. Both games I just got rolled by well upgraded mauraders.
Both games I got stomped, but I am really interested in taking this mech style into my TvT's because it just seems like something fun to play with.
So, TL, here are my two replays
I'm by all means an amateur, I have little time to practice my technique, and I don't take offense to you down right saying I am bad. Thank you for posting a guide which made TvT more interesting for me and taking the time to help out.
On September 25 2011 11:29 TheSaddestPanda wrote: So I read this thread and felt inspired. I got on the ladder making the plan to do this build if I end up playing any tvts (which rarely happen to me, thank god. lol.)
Anyways, I got two TvT's back to back and tried to pull this strategy off. If I recall it was a gas first blue flame opening + expo and just kinda... making tanks and hellions and vikings. Both games are on Shattered temple w/o close positions. Both games I just got rolled by well upgraded mauraders.
Both games I got stomped, but I am really interested in taking this mech style into my TvT's because it just seems like something fun to play with.
So, TL, here are my two replays
I'm by all means an amateur, I have little time to practice my technique, and I don't take offense to you down right saying I am bad. Thank you for posting a guide which made TvT more interesting for me and taking the time to help out.
Game 1: I would have pulled workers to hold that 1-base push. Even though you didn't, you'd have been far ahead afterward with constant worker production. That's your main issue: being on 34 workers 2 base. If you were at, say, 50, your income would be way higher and you could have double the tanks.
Watch some Bomber reps from MLG (sc2rep.com) and look at his SCV production and watch him hammer out workers no matter what is going on, as he makes Sjow look like he has bad macro. That's your goal!
You don't necessary want to worry too much about spreading tanks. It's super APM intensive, and while it's very beneficial, macro is much more so. Work on including it in your gameplay once you start winning.
Second game: Same thing, but you get harassed by Reapers and the SCV losses are even more horrific since you have so few of them to start with. You're still ahead on supply count.. with double his army. Imagine if you had 30-40 scvs even after losing those, instead of 19!''
Every game, watch the rep with unit production tab on, switching to harvest count occasionally. You want to be making workers 24/7, one two and then three at a time until you hit 60-70. You'll notice that there are all sorts of things that throw your concentration off, so you have to teach yourself to jump back for just half a second to add more workers during those times.
Once you get these right, other problems WILL creep up (like dying to this or that push, or that harass, or not being able to spend the huge influx of money from actually having a decent worker count.. but you should be able to identify those and deal with them then.)
Q1: Interested in how you react to maurader openings (fairly rare in TvT) but does happen, and with nothing but hellions and a really late tank, I'm not sure how you can properly defend...
Q2: Also, how do you deny the scv scout with no marine and a gas first build, do you ever feel like your opponents gets a good scout on you?
1. No starport techlab flash, no ebay 2. When u scout banshee, continue to produce marines and use them to attack the banshee while getting the viking out 3. Get blue flame before additional factories 4. Reactor on barracks after the viking pops so u can swap with ur factory after blue flame is done 5. Standard is a raven after a viking or two, however you can opt for a medivac given that you confirmed no cloak. I kinda stopped watching, I think there are alot of gaps in this BO.
Q1: Interested in how you react to maurader openings (fairly rare in TvT) but does happen, and with nothing but hellions and a really late tank, I'm not sure how you can properly defend...
If he builds pure mauraders on the opener you counter his scvs tell he is at your main. Once he is there you pull a few scv's with helllions and they will die fairly quickly. Chances are you'll be ahead or even.
Q2: Also, how do you deny the scv scout with no marine and a gas first build, do you ever feel like your opponents gets a good scout on you?
You can wall in but I don't really mind if he scouts me.
5. Standard is a raven after a viking or two, however you can opt for a medivac given that you confirmed no cloak. I kinda stopped watching, I think there are alot of gaps in this BO.
You didn't name one really. Give details on what you would change and why it;s better.
Q1: Interested in how you react to maurader openings (fairly rare in TvT) but does happen, and with nothing but hellions and a really late tank, I'm not sure how you can properly defend...
If he builds pure mauraders on the opener you counter his scvs tell he is at your main. Once he is there you pull a few scv's with helllions and they will die fairly quickly. Chances are you'll be ahead or even.
I was using this build and my opponent went for a very early bio attack. He had 3 Marauders and 2 Marines at my ramp at around the 6:00 mark.
Could you give more details on how to hold this attack because it seems like a build order loss to me. What do you mean by "you counter his scvs tell he is at your main"? The Marauders are going to quickly kill the 1 or 2 Hellions you have at that point and then go to town on any SCVs you pulled.
Q1: Interested in how you react to maurader openings (fairly rare in TvT) but does happen, and with nothing but hellions and a really late tank, I'm not sure how you can properly defend...
If he builds pure mauraders on the opener you counter his scvs tell he is at your main. Once he is there you pull a few scv's with helllions and they will die fairly quickly. Chances are you'll be ahead or even.
I was using this build and my opponent went for a very early bio attack. He had 3 Marauders and 2 Marines at my ramp at around the 6:00 mark.
Could you give more details on how to hold this attack because it seems like a build order loss to me. What do you mean by "you counter his scvs tell he is at your main"? The Marauders are going to quickly kill the 1 or 2 Hellions you have at that point and then go to town on any SCVs you pulled.
Please provide replays, I need to see every thing that happened. Chances are you made mistakes in build orders, micro, decision making etc.
Q1: Interested in how you react to maurader openings (fairly rare in TvT) but does happen, and with nothing but hellions and a really late tank, I'm not sure how you can properly defend...
If he builds pure mauraders on the opener you counter his scvs tell he is at your main. Once he is there you pull a few scv's with helllions and they will die fairly quickly. Chances are you'll be ahead or even.
I was using this build and my opponent went for a very early bio attack. He had 3 Marauders and 2 Marines at my ramp at around the 6:00 mark.
Could you give more details on how to hold this attack because it seems like a build order loss to me. What do you mean by "you counter his scvs tell he is at your main"? The Marauders are going to quickly kill the 1 or 2 Hellions you have at that point and then go to town on any SCVs you pulled.
Please provide replays, I need to see every thing that happened. Chances are you made mistakes in build orders, micro, decision making etc.
I did make mistakes, it was my first time trying the build so it was kind of sloppy.
After practicing the build some more it seems the best you can get at 6 minutes is 3 Hellions out with blue flame finishing up. If you pull some SCVs and get a decent surround you can hold it off, but you're going to lose quite a few SCVs. If your opponent knows how to micro and is rallying reinforcements I think it would be very difficult to recover from the attack.
Q1: Interested in how you react to maurader openings (fairly rare in TvT) but does happen, and with nothing but hellions and a really late tank, I'm not sure how you can properly defend...
If he builds pure mauraders on the opener you counter his scvs tell he is at your main. Once he is there you pull a few scv's with helllions and they will die fairly quickly. Chances are you'll be ahead or even.
I was using this build and my opponent went for a very early bio attack. He had 3 Marauders and 2 Marines at my ramp at around the 6:00 mark.
Could you give more details on how to hold this attack because it seems like a build order loss to me. What do you mean by "you counter his scvs tell he is at your main"? The Marauders are going to quickly kill the 1 or 2 Hellions you have at that point and then go to town on any SCVs you pulled.
Please provide replays, I need to see every thing that happened. Chances are you made mistakes in build orders, micro, decision making etc.
I did make mistakes, it was my first time trying the build so it was kind of sloppy.
After practicing the build some more it seems the best you can get at 6 minutes is 3 Hellions out with blue flame finishing up. If you pull some SCVs and get a decent surround you can hold it off, but you're going to lose quite a few SCVs. If your opponent knows how to micro and is rallying reinforcements I think it would be very difficult to recover from the attack.
3 Marauders kill scvs very very slow. I'm not sure but chances are if they come with a attack that you HAVE to pull scvs they didn't expand and you should be able to be just fine on scvs with 2 cc's. Like I said though I'd need to see replays to tell you for sure if I'm right or wrong.
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