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On September 28 2011 07:46 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 07:40 HansK wrote:On September 28 2011 07:11 Blazinghand wrote:On September 28 2011 07:05 HansK wrote:On September 28 2011 06:54 Blazinghand wrote:On September 25 2011 07:31 HansK wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote:
Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers. I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think. I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back. But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost. His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done. This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid. What I marked in bold is where your entire post makes zero sense what so ever, It's not even close to the same thing and is in no way shape or form comparable. One is 100% under your control, and the other is pure random chance. If you have no say in if hurricane winds start up or not, then of course it's logical to think extensively on what to do if it does happen if you plan on sailing. In this case though you control rather or not you lose air control, so your efforts are better spent focusing on your air control only. It's fine to lightly think "if i mess up big what should I do" but there should be no extensive thought at all on what to do if you mess up, instead the thought should be focused on not to mess up to start with. That's a fair point; Sc2 does not have rolling of the dice or random chance. It's worth noting, though, that a good sailor can see weather coming and try to avoid it, in the same sense that you can see viking production coming and try to avoid getting outvikinged. However, I also think you can lose air control without making a big mistake. Allow me to offer this situation: two terran players of equal skill are playing, and they're both using your build order and philosophy. Barring some incredible coincidences, one of them will end up with air control, and one of them will end up losing some air control. What should the one who loses some ar control do? Lose because he played worse in that game than the other player. If they both are equal skill level then they would never lose to the other person with the very large advantage. If you lose air control the other person had better micro or economy or macro than you or maybe a mixture of them. You control those aspects of the game entirely and it's a mirror match up so really there is no possible way that it was based on a roll of the dice. Well then, I suppose it is here that our opinions diverge. I respect you as a player and as a helper to those who need help, but I believe that if one player drops down a few vikings against his opponent, instead of losing, he should make a thor or two and try to regain air control. I believe we will have to 'agree to disagree' on this point.
I never said they shouldn't I agree they should. I said they should focus more of their efforts on not losing it in the first place, I in no way said no you should not build a thor and instead said that you should put some light thought into what you should do if you do lose air control(building a thor or two would be considered light though).
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 28 2011 07:59 HansK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 07:46 Blazinghand wrote:On September 28 2011 07:40 HansK wrote:On September 28 2011 07:11 Blazinghand wrote:On September 28 2011 07:05 HansK wrote:On September 28 2011 06:54 Blazinghand wrote:On September 25 2011 07:31 HansK wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote:
Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers. I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think. I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back. But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost. His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done. This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid. What I marked in bold is where your entire post makes zero sense what so ever, It's not even close to the same thing and is in no way shape or form comparable. One is 100% under your control, and the other is pure random chance. If you have no say in if hurricane winds start up or not, then of course it's logical to think extensively on what to do if it does happen if you plan on sailing. In this case though you control rather or not you lose air control, so your efforts are better spent focusing on your air control only. It's fine to lightly think "if i mess up big what should I do" but there should be no extensive thought at all on what to do if you mess up, instead the thought should be focused on not to mess up to start with. That's a fair point; Sc2 does not have rolling of the dice or random chance. It's worth noting, though, that a good sailor can see weather coming and try to avoid it, in the same sense that you can see viking production coming and try to avoid getting outvikinged. However, I also think you can lose air control without making a big mistake. Allow me to offer this situation: two terran players of equal skill are playing, and they're both using your build order and philosophy. Barring some incredible coincidences, one of them will end up with air control, and one of them will end up losing some air control. What should the one who loses some ar control do? Lose because he played worse in that game than the other player. If they both are equal skill level then they would never lose to the other person with the very large advantage. If you lose air control the other person had better micro or economy or macro than you or maybe a mixture of them. You control those aspects of the game entirely and it's a mirror match up so really there is no possible way that it was based on a roll of the dice. Well then, I suppose it is here that our opinions diverge. I respect you as a player and as a helper to those who need help, but I believe that if one player drops down a few vikings against his opponent, instead of losing, he should make a thor or two and try to regain air control. I believe we will have to 'agree to disagree' on this point. I never said they shouldn't I agree they should. I said they should focus more of their efforts on not losing it in the first place, I in no way said no you should not build a thor and instead said that you should put some light thought into what you should do if you do lose air control(building a thor or two would be considered light though).
Ah, so it seems we are in agreement! Never mind, then. I was somewhat confused after the last couple posts because of this exchange:
Here's what I said:
What should the one who loses some ar control do?
That was the ending sentence of my post. The opening sentence of your post was:
Lose because he played worse in that game than the other player.
I thought you literally said that he should just lose. I'm glad that I am wrong; I must have misinterpreted that as you saying that someone who loses air control should lose rather than make a thor, as a direct response to my question, and holding with some of your previous statements.
My bad.
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Uploaded with a replay of KeenMVP doing the same build[pretty much]. Great watch if you want to play mech.
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how do I hold a 1/1/1 marine tank banshee scv all in with this opening?
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On October 03 2011 00:18 ducis wrote:
how do I hold a 1/1/1 marine tank banshee scv all in with this opening?
Scout and prepare. You should have a viking out by the time the banshee gets there, and you should have a turret [or raven] for when/if he gets cloak.
Secondly, you need to scout and not lose hellions. Keep your hellions controlling the middle of the map and use hellion micro to get free marine kills and if you have to right before he sieges up your base surround with some scvs hellions and the 1 tank or so you'll have out, once the marines are gone you automatically win.
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Hansk,
I'm continuing to practice this tvt mech but I have a question.
You mention throughout the guide that you eventually can keep up with upgrades while playing the game out. When do you get your first armory? Do you get double armory? Which do you upgrade first, attack or armor?
I feel like I'd rather use the armory to pump out 1/1 in my air ASAP instead of mech.
From liquipedia:
Upgrades
Before reaching three bases, there's generally not that many upgrades involved in mech play - Siege Mode and Infernal Pre-Igniter are the only required ones. Attack upgrades for mech are not very useful against a marine/marauder-heavy opponent as it takes a lot of upgrades before they actually make a difference in how many tank shots it takes to kill them. Armor upgrades may let your mech army survive longer, but against a bio-heavy style your goal should be to avoid taking those shots in the first place.
If both players are going mech, upgrades are a bit more favourable. A big reason for this is that an Armory is required for Thors which soak up a lot of tank damage. Some important Armory upgrades are:
If your opponent has no mech armor upgrades, +1 attack on your Siege Tanks will allow them to kill your opponent's Siege Tanks in 3 shots instead of 4 (while sieged)
No matter the armor upgrades, +1 attack on your Siege Tanks will allow them to kill your opponent's Thors in 7 shots instead of 8 (while sieged)
Until your opponent gets +2 armor, +2 attack on your Siege Tanks will allow them to kill your opponent's Thors in 6 shots
+1 air armor on your Vikings will allow them to survive one extra volley from other Vikings until your opponent gets +1 air attack
Later in the game, if you transition into mass air, air armor upgrades get very important, especially if you have the superior Viking count. The only ground-to-air capabilities Terran has (Marines, Thors and Missile Turrets) don't do a lot of damage but do it very quickly, which means that armor upgrades are very effective.
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On October 05 2011 12:39 TheSaddestPanda wrote:
Hansk,
I'm continuing to practice this tvt mech but I have a question.
You mention throughout the guide that you eventually can keep up with upgrades while playing the game out. When do you get your first armory? Do you get double armory? Which do you upgrade first, attack or armor?
I feel like I'd rather use the armory to pump out 1/1 in my air ASAP instead of mech.
From liquipedia:
Upgrades
Before reaching three bases, there's generally not that many upgrades involved in mech play - Siege Mode and Infernal Pre-Igniter are the only required ones. Attack upgrades for mech are not very useful against a marine/marauder-heavy opponent as it takes a lot of upgrades before they actually make a difference in how many tank shots it takes to kill them. Armor upgrades may let your mech army survive longer, but against a bio-heavy style your goal should be to avoid taking those shots in the first place.
If both players are going mech, upgrades are a bit more favourable. A big reason for this is that an Armory is required for Thors which soak up a lot of tank damage. Some important Armory upgrades are:
If your opponent has no mech armor upgrades, +1 attack on your Siege Tanks will allow them to kill your opponent's Siege Tanks in 3 shots instead of 4 (while sieged)
No matter the armor upgrades, +1 attack on your Siege Tanks will allow them to kill your opponent's Thors in 7 shots instead of 8 (while sieged)
Until your opponent gets +2 armor, +2 attack on your Siege Tanks will allow them to kill your opponent's Thors in 6 shots
+1 air armor on your Vikings will allow them to survive one extra volley from other Vikings until your opponent gets +1 air attack
Later in the game, if you transition into mass air, air armor upgrades get very important, especially if you have the superior Viking count. The only ground-to-air capabilities Terran has (Marines, Thors and Missile Turrets) don't do a lot of damage but do it very quickly, which means that armor upgrades are very effective.
Most Korean gamers start their +1 vehicle weapons at around 11-12 minutes. I'm still personally trying to get a feel of the best timing to get upgrades. They are how ever very important, some people really skip upgrades for "a couple" of extra units when if they just built a few less tanks they could have 3-0 ups.
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Hey thanks for this man I've been looking for a straight up standard build to play TvT mech that can get me into the late game where my macro will allow me to overtake opponents.
Only thing I think you're lacking in the guide is replays, if you could upload some replays vs various builds/styles you've come across that would be much appreciated 
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On October 07 2011 13:03 Tonem wrote:Hey thanks for this man I've been looking for a straight up standard build to play TvT mech that can get me into the late game where my macro will allow me to overtake opponents. Only thing I think you're lacking in the guide is replays, if you could upload some replays vs various builds/styles you've come across that would be much appreciated
I try to get more but when I only play 5 games a day a lot of the times it's no terran or one terran, and even then it's most of the time a really odd or weird game due to mid master ladder people.
I'd love to find some quality practice partners not only to get better videos and replays but to improve my game as well.
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do you get ravens even when you don't scout banshees with your 6:20 scan? it seems if I get it no matter what after my first 1 or 2 vikings, I can switch the tech lab off to a factory when I expand, then kick into full viking production
I also just recently lost this game to a weird ghost timing attack. My scan was 10-15 seconds late but I don't think it would have seen the ghosts anyway. How can you hold off this attack? I think I would have lost even if I did repair properly
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-236228.jpg)
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On October 09 2011 19:07 Escoffier wrote:do you get ravens even when you don't scout banshees with your 6:20 scan? it seems if I get it no matter what after my first 1 or 2 vikings, I can switch the tech lab off to a factory when I expand, then kick into full viking production I also just recently lost this game to a weird ghost timing attack. My scan was 10-15 seconds late but I don't think it would have seen the ghosts anyway. How can you hold off this attack? I think I would have lost even if I did repair properly
If I can't rule out banshees almost 100% I get a turrets and a viking and then a raven, if I see no sign of banshees I wait a decent while to get my raven. It doesn't help very much in the early game like it does in the late game but I do think in mech TvT a few ravens are almost always needed.
I'll have to watch your replay later but my guess is good scouting and bunkers could have won it.
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Ok I have a question regarding air control.
Often I face a marine tank push at the 8-10 minute mark. I can delay with hellions fine, but the problem arises when my opponent rallies reactored vikings to my natural.
Over time he'll have an expansion and I'll be stuck in my base with just hellions and maybe a couple tanks.
Question is: how do i prevent this contain?
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On October 10 2011 05:18 Grndr101 wrote:
Ok I have a question regarding air control.
Often I face a marine tank push at the 8-10 minute mark. I can delay with hellions fine, but the problem arises when my opponent rallies reactored vikings to my natural.
Over time he'll have an expansion and I'll be stuck in my base with just hellions and maybe a couple tanks.
Question is: how do i prevent this contain?
Please post replays for people to attempt to help answer, saying something like that is far too general with out any timings and I can't take micro, macro, and decision making into play. It's sort of like saying "I lose to 3 hellions at around 9 minutes... What do I do?".
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On October 10 2011 04:52 HansK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 19:07 Escoffier wrote:do you get ravens even when you don't scout banshees with your 6:20 scan? it seems if I get it no matter what after my first 1 or 2 vikings, I can switch the tech lab off to a factory when I expand, then kick into full viking production I also just recently lost this game to a weird ghost timing attack. My scan was 10-15 seconds late but I don't think it would have seen the ghosts anyway. How can you hold off this attack? I think I would have lost even if I did repair properly If I can't rule out banshees almost 100% I get a turrets and a viking and then a raven, if I see no sign of banshees I wait a decent while to get my raven. It doesn't help very much in the early game like it does in the late game but I do think in mech TvT a few ravens are almost always needed. I'll have to watch your replay later but my guess is good scouting and bunkers could have won it.
well I tried popping in with my first hellion but there was a wall off. when I had two, I walked up the ramp and he had 4 ghosts or something like that. it was really weird
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On October 10 2011 15:47 Escoffier wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 04:52 HansK wrote:On October 09 2011 19:07 Escoffier wrote:do you get ravens even when you don't scout banshees with your 6:20 scan? it seems if I get it no matter what after my first 1 or 2 vikings, I can switch the tech lab off to a factory when I expand, then kick into full viking production I also just recently lost this game to a weird ghost timing attack. My scan was 10-15 seconds late but I don't think it would have seen the ghosts anyway. How can you hold off this attack? I think I would have lost even if I did repair properly If I can't rule out banshees almost 100% I get a turrets and a viking and then a raven, if I see no sign of banshees I wait a decent while to get my raven. It doesn't help very much in the early game like it does in the late game but I do think in mech TvT a few ravens are almost always needed. I'll have to watch your replay later but my guess is good scouting and bunkers could have won it. well I tried popping in with my first hellion but there was a wall off. when I had two, I walked up the ramp and he had 4 ghosts or something like that. it was really weird
I got around to watching your replay and you made some major mistakes. The first is losing the first hellion, there is no real reason for it happening. When you go to poke with it keep your eye on it.
Second you don't control either watch tower when you could have with no issue what so ever. If you didn't lose your first hellion, and watched the watch tower[s] you would have had 5 hellions by the time the push came to your door and you could have had a bunker going up with marines producing as well to help hold off the push, you might have had to pull a couple scvs, but even if you had to pull 10 you would have been in a fine spot due to two cc's up and he doesn't even have a second one up. [two mules and double scv production].
Even with the situation you were in due to bad scouting and decision making you could have held it if you let him up your ramp and surrounded with scvs, viking, hellions, and a marine or two. Instead you walled off your ramp and had a few scvs just sitting there idle getting picked off at with 800 minerals not producing any marines nor hellions nor bunkers or anything.
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On October 10 2011 16:36 HansK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 15:47 Escoffier wrote:On October 10 2011 04:52 HansK wrote:On October 09 2011 19:07 Escoffier wrote:do you get ravens even when you don't scout banshees with your 6:20 scan? it seems if I get it no matter what after my first 1 or 2 vikings, I can switch the tech lab off to a factory when I expand, then kick into full viking production I also just recently lost this game to a weird ghost timing attack. My scan was 10-15 seconds late but I don't think it would have seen the ghosts anyway. How can you hold off this attack? I think I would have lost even if I did repair properly If I can't rule out banshees almost 100% I get a turrets and a viking and then a raven, if I see no sign of banshees I wait a decent while to get my raven. It doesn't help very much in the early game like it does in the late game but I do think in mech TvT a few ravens are almost always needed. I'll have to watch your replay later but my guess is good scouting and bunkers could have won it. well I tried popping in with my first hellion but there was a wall off. when I had two, I walked up the ramp and he had 4 ghosts or something like that. it was really weird I got around to watching your replay and you made some major mistakes. The first is losing the first hellion, there is no real reason for it happening. When you go to poke with it keep your eye on it. Second you don't control either watch tower when you could have with no issue what so ever. If you didn't lose your first hellion, and watched the watch tower[s] you would have had 5 hellions by the time the push came to your door and you could have had a bunker going up with marines producing as well to help hold off the push, you might have had to pull a couple scvs, but even if you had to pull 10 you would have been in a fine spot due to two cc's up and he doesn't even have a second one up. [two mules and double scv production]. Even with the situation you were in due to bad scouting and decision making you could have held it if you let him up your ramp and surrounded with scvs, viking, hellions, and a marine or two. Instead you walled off your ramp and had a few scvs just sitting there idle getting picked off at with 800 minerals not producing any marines nor hellions nor bunkers or anything.
yeah I see my mistakes now. thanks!
I'm at ~80% win rate with this build now
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Oh, another thing. Your build order says CC on 27, but in the video you drop it down at 24. just a heads up
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Hey hansk can you edit the BO or something?
like the above guy mentioned, your cc went down at 24 in the vid. Plz give explanation or fix.
thanks for the post!
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Sorry to bump old post, but is this still the best guide for tvt mech opening build order? or is there a better one?
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Hey thx for the guide I have decided to move to mech in TvT as TvT is keeping me from promoting out of diamond at present.
I had a question - if you scout early reaper expand / bio build with a FE does it make sense to hold off on blue flame and get siege mode straight away? I have been able to do ok when its marine heavy but if his medevac push is mara heavy its tough if siege is not finished.
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EPT
