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On September 25 2011 08:11 Maxie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 07:14 HansK wrote:
I suggest in the video to non stop produce hellions for a while, as blue flame hellions can hold nearly any push. The only way a marine tank early push defeats this build is if they sit the hellions in their base and don't move an inch. If you use them to move around the map and watch towers, you will see them coming and can micro your hellions to kill off the bio units. I don't claim for this to be an easy way to play TvT but I don't think there is a easy way if you ever want to get out of lower leagues.
Worse case they do some form of 1 base all in and you have to pull a hand full of scvs to defend and they'll only have one CC and you should be fine.
I'll try doing so in a future game where something similar happens, holding it off with hellion/marine alone would certainly allow me to get a better infrastructure rolling than going straight for siege tanks... but going for them still worked out decently. Taking out the marines should be possible with hellions, but I'm still quite worried about the tanks. A question regarding mech: how important are upgrades? Should they be a priority?
Upgrade timing for Korean T is generally 12min +1 if both players are meching, against mech you want only +weapon, against bio it varies, but double upgrades are a + if you can afford it.
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On September 26 2011 10:04 MysteryHours wrote:
I was using this build and my opponent went for a very early bio attack. He had 3 Marauders and 2 Marines at my ramp at around the 6:00 mark.
Could you give more details on how to hold this attack because it seems like a build order loss to me. What do you mean by "you counter his scvs tell he is at your main"? The Marauders are going to quickly kill the 1 or 2 Hellions you have at that point and then go to town on any SCVs you pulled.
When I asked for help I provided a replay of this attack coming up against me a couple posts above yours. I held it off, but he hurt me pretty bad. didnt seem to fatal.
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On September 26 2011 13:05 TheSaddestPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 10:04 MysteryHours wrote:
I was using this build and my opponent went for a very early bio attack. He had 3 Marauders and 2 Marines at my ramp at around the 6:00 mark.
Could you give more details on how to hold this attack because it seems like a build order loss to me. What do you mean by "you counter his scvs tell he is at your main"? The Marauders are going to quickly kill the 1 or 2 Hellions you have at that point and then go to town on any SCVs you pulled. When I asked for help I provided a replay of this attack coming up against me a couple posts above yours. I held it off, but he hurt me pretty bad. didnt seem to fatal.
That attack timing came a little later when you already had a tank out, though the composition of his army was very similar. I think lolp is right though, if you pull a bunch of SCVs you should be able to hold it off, then you can catch back up with the 2nd CC. I think it's important to not wall off against this, otherwise they can just hang out at your ramp and pick off buildings without you being able to engage properly.
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You are probably right. I could have done more to prevent lossess, if i recall I think I lost an entire tank for no reason. but it was my first time trying out the build & and I havent had another tvt since that day. When I go up against more terran I'll save the replays and post em in here again.
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It can be easy to try a build out and lose in a certain way and assume the build is weak to that strategy. The more times you do the build though the more you learn how to micro, and react to their attack.
Lets say they do some weird marauder all in for what ever reason and you auto lose.. some times you'll notice if you pulled 6 scvs or some arbitrary number you'll hold it off with almost no losses and have two cc's up.
When you watch a replay really think to your self "did I time things out right? Did I scout or notice any signs this was coming and didn't prepare? Was my macro and micro great? Was there a small change in my build I can make to make me safe if I did every thing I could to hold it off and stay even almost perfect and it didn't work?"
Pretty much always look at your games like that, as regardless of any build you do if you make big mistakes with it you'll lose. Don't look at it as "wow, this build sucks".
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Appreciate the builds you have been putting out man. Both the 1-1 marine timing and this build will likely become the core of my TvZ and TvT respectively . Thanks again!
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On September 26 2011 19:21 Vrtigo wrote:
Appreciate the builds you have been putting out man. Both the 1-1 marine timing and this build will likely become the core of my TvZ and TvT respectively . Thanks again!
Glad it can help some people! Even if the build it's self does not work for people, it can give them an idea of a build so start modifying to their own play style but with an over-all goal in their build to reach. For example my enemy in this game goes banshee into reactor hellions while I go blue flame hellions into viking, but we both end up with 3 factory's and a starport on two bases pumping mostly the same units.
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Hi dear teamliquid community, my first post 
I have a question about what specific steps do I have to take to hold off an early marine-tank push. I am doing DeMusliM's mech FE build (15 Gas, which allows me to start a CC at 4:00 and finish a factory by 5:20) - basically, I do the same thing as in Maxie's replay and end up in the same situation: with several marines, a viking, 1-2 hellions and BF not even half-done.
1. I noticed that Maxie cancels BF and starts siege mode + produce tanks as soon as he scouts the marine-tank push. Is it necessary to do so?
2. What other things can I do - bunker on high ground? Get 1 banshee?
I hope this is not OT, and thanks for a great thread!
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On September 27 2011 04:25 PanzerPony wrote:Hi dear teamliquid community, my first post I have a question about what specific steps do I have to take to hold off an early marine-tank push. I am doing DeMusliM's mech FE build (15 Gas, which allows me to start a CC at 4:00 and finish a factory by 5:20) - basically, I do the same thing as in Maxie's replay and end up in the same situation: with several marines, a viking, 1-2 hellions and BF not even half-done. 1. I noticed that Maxie cancels BF and starts siege mode + produce tanks as soon as he scouts the marine-tank push. Is it necessary to do so? 2. What other things can I do - bunker on high ground? Get 1 banshee? I hope this is not OT, and thanks for a great thread!
Well according to the other fine gentlemen in the thread, you should be able to stall it with hellions only, which gives you time to get more units (namely hellions) out to defend.
Try that, since going for tanks that early hurts your infrastructure quite a bit... but getting tanks of your own is the safer option, I think, though it does put you behind in factories.
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On September 27 2011 04:32 Maxie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 04:25 PanzerPony wrote:Hi dear teamliquid community, my first post I have a question about what specific steps do I have to take to hold off an early marine-tank push. I am doing DeMusliM's mech FE build (15 Gas, which allows me to start a CC at 4:00 and finish a factory by 5:20) - basically, I do the same thing as in Maxie's replay and end up in the same situation: with several marines, a viking, 1-2 hellions and BF not even half-done. 1. I noticed that Maxie cancels BF and starts siege mode + produce tanks as soon as he scouts the marine-tank push. Is it necessary to do so? 2. What other things can I do - bunker on high ground? Get 1 banshee? I hope this is not OT, and thanks for a great thread! Well according to the other fine gentlemen in the thread, you should be able to stall it with hellions only, which gives you time to get more units (namely hellions) out to defend. Try that, since going for tanks that early hurts your infrastructure quite a bit... but getting tanks of your own is the safer option, I think, though it does put you behind in factories.
Thanks for advise! I also understood that it should be possible to hold it off just using hellions, but how exactly would I do it? I used to do iEchoic's build without FE, so by the time the push starts I would have several BF hellions and catch the push in the middle of the map. Once it has sieged up my ramp though, tanks melt the few hellions I have. With FE I don't have enough hellions to prevent the push from reaching my base. Any suggestions on how to go about it?
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On September 27 2011 04:57 PanzerPony wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 04:32 Maxie wrote:On September 27 2011 04:25 PanzerPony wrote:Hi dear teamliquid community, my first post I have a question about what specific steps do I have to take to hold off an early marine-tank push. I am doing DeMusliM's mech FE build (15 Gas, which allows me to start a CC at 4:00 and finish a factory by 5:20) - basically, I do the same thing as in Maxie's replay and end up in the same situation: with several marines, a viking, 1-2 hellions and BF not even half-done. 1. I noticed that Maxie cancels BF and starts siege mode + produce tanks as soon as he scouts the marine-tank push. Is it necessary to do so? 2. What other things can I do - bunker on high ground? Get 1 banshee? I hope this is not OT, and thanks for a great thread! Well according to the other fine gentlemen in the thread, you should be able to stall it with hellions only, which gives you time to get more units (namely hellions) out to defend. Try that, since going for tanks that early hurts your infrastructure quite a bit... but getting tanks of your own is the safer option, I think, though it does put you behind in factories. Thanks for advise! I also understood that it should be possible to hold it off just using hellions, but how exactly would I do it? I used to do iEchoic's build without FE, so by the time the push starts I would have several BF hellions and catch the push in the middle of the map. Once it has sieged up my ramp though, tanks melt the few hellions I have. With FE I don't have enough hellions to prevent the push from reaching my base. Any suggestions on how to go about it?
Please start providing replays for these kinds of questions. We need to see exact timings, micro, decisions made, macro and so forth to make any kind of a call which only a replay can provide.
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Fair enough, here is a replay of game which made me ask my question. This is a custom game against a guy who seems to be quite a newbie. I play as Tesla.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-234539.jpg)
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On September 27 2011 06:42 PanzerPony wrote:Fair enough, here is a replay of game which made me ask my question. This is a custom game against a guy who seems to be quite a newbie. I play as Tesla.
7:11
You lost a hellion 100% unnecessary due to very very late scouting with it, even though it was out. You could have intercepted his push with your marines/hellions and a couple of scvs [even up to 6] in the middle of the map if you scouted properly and crushed it with two CC's up and better tech.
Secondly, even though you have the money there is very long periods of time[over 10 seconds] where you don't produce a single unit out of your factory.
You also build a uneeded viking, and don't even land it in the engagment.
Watching this video you could have held it off with zero scv pulls if you just built units non-stop and didn't have over 20 seconds with no units producing out of your barracks or factory when you had the money, and scouted with your first hellion to see what was going on.
At 7:29 you have 4 marines, a viking, and a hellion. You could have had 6-8 marines, a viking, and 3 hellions and with scouting could have caught him before he sieges right out side of your ramp.
Funny enough even with all the mistakes you made, even with your such very few units you could have held the push off with 4 marines a viking a hellion and 5-8 scvs and still be fine.
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On September 27 2011 07:01 HansK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 06:42 PanzerPony wrote:Fair enough, here is a replay of game which made me ask my question. This is a custom game against a guy who seems to be quite a newbie. I play as Tesla. 7:11 You lost a hellion 100% unnecessary due to very very late scouting with it, even though it was out. You could have intercepted his push with your marines/hellions and a couple of scvs [even up to 6] in the middle of the map if you scouted properly and crushed it with two CC's up and better tech. Secondly, even though you have the money there is very long periods of time[over 10 seconds] where you don't produce a single unit out of your factory. You also build a uneeded viking, and don't even land it in the engagment. Watching this video you could have held it off with zero scv pulls if you just built units non-stop and didn't have over 20 seconds with no units producing out of your barracks or factory when you had the money, and scouted with your first hellion to see what was going on. At 7:29 you have 4 marines, a viking, and a hellion. You could have had 6-8 marines, a viking, and 3 hellions and with scouting could have caught him before he sieges right out side of your ramp. Funny enough even with all the mistakes you made, even with your such very few units you could have held the push off with 4 marines a viking a hellion and 5-8 scvs and still be fine.
Thank you HansK.
As I understand from your reply, it is key to catch the push before it sieges, even if it means pulling several SCVs. If it sieges my ramp, holding it becomes more difficult.
I will focus on my macro mistakes to have all production buildings constantly producing, thanks for pointing this out to me.
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On September 27 2011 18:15 PanzerPony wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 07:01 HansK wrote:On September 27 2011 06:42 PanzerPony wrote:Fair enough, here is a replay of game which made me ask my question. This is a custom game against a guy who seems to be quite a newbie. I play as Tesla. 7:11 You lost a hellion 100% unnecessary due to very very late scouting with it, even though it was out. You could have intercepted his push with your marines/hellions and a couple of scvs [even up to 6] in the middle of the map if you scouted properly and crushed it with two CC's up and better tech. Secondly, even though you have the money there is very long periods of time[over 10 seconds] where you don't produce a single unit out of your factory. You also build a uneeded viking, and don't even land it in the engagment. Watching this video you could have held it off with zero scv pulls if you just built units non-stop and didn't have over 20 seconds with no units producing out of your barracks or factory when you had the money, and scouted with your first hellion to see what was going on. At 7:29 you have 4 marines, a viking, and a hellion. You could have had 6-8 marines, a viking, and 3 hellions and with scouting could have caught him before he sieges right out side of your ramp. Funny enough even with all the mistakes you made, even with your such very few units you could have held the push off with 4 marines a viking a hellion and 5-8 scvs and still be fine. Thank you HansK. As I understand from your reply, it is key to catch the push before it sieges, even if it means pulling several SCVs. If it sieges my ramp, holding it becomes more difficult. I will focus on my macro mistakes to have all production buildings constantly producing, thanks for pointing this out to me.
Pretty much if you don't stop producing hellions ever from your factory and scout with your first hellion ASAP and focus not on losing it you will see the push coming. If you were producing out of barracks and factory until the tank was mid-map you would have completely owned it, even if you had bad micro you could have brought 6 scvs and still crushed it and be ahead.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 25 2011 07:31 HansK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote:
Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers. I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think.
I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back.
But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost.
His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done.
This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid.
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On September 28 2011 06:54 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 07:31 HansK wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote:
Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers. I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think. I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back. But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost. His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done. This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid.
What I marked in bold is where your entire post makes zero sense what so ever, It's not even close to the same thing and is in no way shape or form comparable. One is 100% under your control, and the other is pure random chance.
If you have no say in if hurricane winds start up or not, then of course it's logical to think extensively on what to do if it does happen if you plan on sailing. In this case though you control rather or not you lose air control, so your efforts are better spent focusing on your air control only. It's fine to lightly think "if i mess up big what should I do" but there should be no extensive thought at all on what to do if you mess up, instead the thought should be focused on not to mess up to start with.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 28 2011 07:05 HansK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 06:54 Blazinghand wrote:On September 25 2011 07:31 HansK wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote:
Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers. I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think. I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back. But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost. His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done. This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid. What I marked in bold is where your entire post makes zero sense what so ever, It's not even close to the same thing and is in no way shape or form comparable. One is 100% under your control, and the other is pure random chance. If you have no say in if hurricane winds start up or not, then of course it's logical to think extensively on what to do if it does happen if you plan on sailing. In this case though you control rather or not you lose air control, so your efforts are better spent focusing on your air control only. It's fine to lightly think "if i mess up big what should I do" but there should be no extensive thought at all on what to do if you mess up, instead the thought should be focused on not to mess up to start with.
That's a fair point; Sc2 does not have rolling of the dice or random chance. It's worth noting, though, that a good sailor can see weather coming and try to avoid it, in the same sense that you can see viking production coming and try to avoid getting outvikinged.
However, I also think you can lose air control without making a big mistake. Allow me to offer this situation: two terran players of equal skill are playing, and they're both using your build order and philosophy. Barring some incredible coincidences, one of them will end up with air control, and one of them will end up losing some air control. What should the one who loses some air control do?
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On September 28 2011 07:11 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 07:05 HansK wrote:On September 28 2011 06:54 Blazinghand wrote:On September 25 2011 07:31 HansK wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote:
Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers. I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think. I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back. But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost. His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done. This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid. What I marked in bold is where your entire post makes zero sense what so ever, It's not even close to the same thing and is in no way shape or form comparable. One is 100% under your control, and the other is pure random chance. If you have no say in if hurricane winds start up or not, then of course it's logical to think extensively on what to do if it does happen if you plan on sailing. In this case though you control rather or not you lose air control, so your efforts are better spent focusing on your air control only. It's fine to lightly think "if i mess up big what should I do" but there should be no extensive thought at all on what to do if you mess up, instead the thought should be focused on not to mess up to start with. That's a fair point; Sc2 does not have rolling of the dice or random chance. It's worth noting, though, that a good sailor can see weather coming and try to avoid it, in the same sense that you can see viking production coming and try to avoid getting outvikinged. However, I also think you can lose air control without making a big mistake. Allow me to offer this situation: two terran players of equal skill are playing, and they're both using your build order and philosophy. Barring some incredible coincidences, one of them will end up with air control, and one of them will end up losing some air control. What should the one who loses some ar control do?
Lose because he played worse in that game than the other player. If they both are equal skill level then they would never lose to the other person with the very large advantage. If you lose air control the other person had better micro or economy or macro than you or maybe a mixture of them. You control those aspects of the game entirely and it's a mirror match up so really there is no possible way that it was based on a roll of the dice.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 28 2011 07:40 HansK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 07:11 Blazinghand wrote:On September 28 2011 07:05 HansK wrote:On September 28 2011 06:54 Blazinghand wrote:On September 25 2011 07:31 HansK wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote:
Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers. I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think. I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back. But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost. His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done. This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid. What I marked in bold is where your entire post makes zero sense what so ever, It's not even close to the same thing and is in no way shape or form comparable. One is 100% under your control, and the other is pure random chance. If you have no say in if hurricane winds start up or not, then of course it's logical to think extensively on what to do if it does happen if you plan on sailing. In this case though you control rather or not you lose air control, so your efforts are better spent focusing on your air control only. It's fine to lightly think "if i mess up big what should I do" but there should be no extensive thought at all on what to do if you mess up, instead the thought should be focused on not to mess up to start with. That's a fair point; Sc2 does not have rolling of the dice or random chance. It's worth noting, though, that a good sailor can see weather coming and try to avoid it, in the same sense that you can see viking production coming and try to avoid getting outvikinged. However, I also think you can lose air control without making a big mistake. Allow me to offer this situation: two terran players of equal skill are playing, and they're both using your build order and philosophy. Barring some incredible coincidences, one of them will end up with air control, and one of them will end up losing some air control. What should the one who loses some ar control do? Lose because he played worse in that game than the other player. If they both are equal skill level then they would never lose to the other person with the very large advantage. If you lose air control the other person had better micro or economy or macro than you or maybe a mixture of them. You control those aspects of the game entirely and it's a mirror match up so really there is no possible way that it was based on a roll of the dice.
Well then, I suppose it is here that our opinions diverge. I respect you as a player and as a helper to those who need help, but I believe that if one player drops down a few vikings against his opponent, instead of losing, he should make a thor or two and try to regain air control. I believe we will have to 'agree to disagree' on this point.
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