Hello, My name is lolp and I've recently made two guides[http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267242] and [http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=265947]. Since I've done TvP and TvZ I figured I'll finish it off with a TvT. P.S I'm a low-mid masters player depending on the week and my play time!
This build is not meant to be some fancy timing push into standard play like my other two guides, as I feel in TvT good players will almost always force it into a late game. The idea behind this guide is to give you a set up into a position where you can play out a late game. I can't tell you where to position your tanks, where to place every turret 30 minutes into the game, when to attack into a sige line and when to not. I can however help you get into a position where you can make those choices and get there safely with a solid idea behind your play.
So before we get into build order numbers, lets talk about the fundamentals of the build. One of the most important parts of mech TvT is your air control. If it's mech vs mech you really, really, really want air control. Don't ever lose it because if you do it's very unlikely you're getting it back with out getting behind. There is way too many benefits not to get it, throw in a banshee or two, bc's late game, landing vikings at bases, drop ship pick offs. The list is endless.
Secondly your production, as a rule of thumb for every added base add two more factorys, one with reactor and one with tech lab. If you really start to go late game you may need extra rector ports to keep air control, you can base that on his viking counts
Thirdly, know your scan timings and ebay timings. I suggest scanning at 6:00-6:30 and if you can't almost certainly deduce he's not going cloaked banshees just get a ebay asap. You can't deal with non stop production cloaked banshees with out a raven or turrets, vikings and scans just wont cut it with out putting you behind.
Lastly, patience. Do not get over eager to take a expansion uber early because you have one seige tank defending it, wait till your army can cover enough territory to do so. Other wise you might be split up so much they just drop your main you have to send too many units to go save it they kill your 3rd or siege your natural.. or both.
Build order 10 depot 11 gas 13 barracks 16 factory [as soon as barracks finishes] 16 orbital [build tech lab on barracks] 18 supply depot switch factory with barracks to put it on tech lab, research blue flame + build hellion build non stop hellions and depots as needed 27 CC in-base[build ENG bay directly when CC finishes if needed based on scan, 6:00 is around when you want to scan] 32 food starport
from here is where you go into standard play. add on two factorys and reactor one and tech lab the other. my rule of thumb is if my macro is good i can do 1.5 factorys per a base with upgrades and turrets and depots and vikings and so forth. Try to add two factorys per a base, one reactor hellions one siege tanks.
Scan between 6:00-6:30, if you cant deduce banshees are not coming throw down an immediate eng bay and turrets, save scans in case not done in time. If you see them going blue flame drop, just keep your blue flames at home for defense and kill the drop ship with the viking. It should put them behind, don't rush 1 tank out and have it chase around the hellions why they wreak havoc in your base. If it's clearly a 1 base all in, delay with mass hellion by harassing their minerals or microing back and forth with blue flame and marines.
Replays:
A video of me explaining the build. The opener is meant to a safe and general opener with very little deviation and the small deviations possible are explained in detail. For this reason I felt it was unnecessary and would be unable to do so due to time constraints to play and upload 20 replays of such a build. http://replayfu.com/r/wmGKzh - MVPKeen doing a very similar build.
I've decided since I had a few request I would offer some coaching. I'm a 950-1000 NA[current season] Masters Terran player who has played all three races to masters in order to gain a better understanding of them.
I'm able to help diamond and below players get into a higher league and give them a better understanding of the game and how to improve rather than teach them just one build only with no other help.
I charge $7.25 USD/Hour[minimum wage in my state] and have no problem going the extra mile to help you get better. I guarantee a refund if you're not satisfied so you have nothing to lose!
I prepare my lessons ahead of time from your email in order to make our time as efficient as possible so if you're interested in my coaching service please send a email to: lolptvcoaching@live.com with the following information:
[currently only do Terran and Protoss] Race played: League/rank in league: What match up you have the most trouble with: Current strategy's you try to use[if any]: The style you like most:[Macro or Timing/micro based play] Replays: Upload a few replays of games you've played that you have questions about.[http://replayfu.com/] Other notes: Any notes you would like me to know about such as specific questions or things you would like to work on so I can prepare answers and things before hand for you to make your time more efficient. Time/date you want coaching: I can coach at almost any time, even graveyard times. Skype/msn/aim/icq/yim/ to contact you at easier: [you can contact me at jakeslc555 on AIM if you need to contact me fast]
When first trying out mech, keep practicing it. The first time will be hard and it will take a lot of getting use to and you might even want to make slight changes of the build on your own. Keep the basics and keep trying!
One thing I cannot stress enough is that when going mech, you HAVE to react to what your opponent is doing during the first 10 minutes. If you're doing a hellion based opener and your opponent is going for an early tank/marine push (as is extremely common in Platinum), you have to react to it. If your oppnent is going for a cloaked banshee build, viking + raven is an excellent combo and you can use the tech lab for one of your later factories.
Depending on when you scout a tank push (the 6:20-6:30 scan is the perfect timing, as has been said) and what kind of infrastructure you have, either keep making hellions and get a banshee - if you kill the marines, the tanks are free kills - or get tanks + siege mode yourself.
If you like FE builds I'd highly recommend a 15 gas 1 rax FE, as it lets you get a CC up without delaying your factory too long. If you look at Demuslim's video archive on his stream you'll find older videos where he does this opener.
I find the biggest problem with going mech to be the minerals/gas balance - hellions are your mineral dump and to make them you need factories, which cost gas... so you can get in an iffy spot when it comes to spending your money if you're forced to make tanks earlier than planned, as in this game (disclaimer: high platinum level game, I was late with both the CC and factory because I got distracted, cc should be down @ ~3:46 and the factory @ ~4:03):
Important note: If you're going mech, don't skimp on air control! Thors work decently, but currently I prefer using air units, as they also give vision for your siege tanks.
On September 25 2011 06:42 Maxie wrote: One thing I cannot stress enough is that when going mech, you HAVE to react to what your opponent is doing during the first 10 minutes. If you're doing a hellion based opener and your opponent is going for an early tank/marine push (as is extremely common in Platinum), you have to react to it. If your oppnent is going for a cloaked banshee build, viking + raven is an excellent combo and you can use the tech lab for one of your later factories.
Depending on when you scout a tank push (the 6:20-6:30 scan is the perfect timing, as has been said) and what kind of infrastructure you have, either keep making hellions and get a banshee - if you kill the marines, the tanks are free kills - or get tanks + siege mode yourself.
If you like FE builds I'd highly recommend a 15 gas 1 rax FE, as it lets you get a CC up without delaying your factory too long. If you look at Demuslim's video archive on his stream you'll find older videos where he does this opener.
I find the biggest problem with going mech to be the minerals/gas balance - hellions are your mineral dump and to make them you need factories, which cost gas... so you can get in an iffy spot when it comes to spending your money if you're forced to make tanks earlier than planned, as in this game (disclaimer: high platinum level game, I was late with both the CC and factory because I got distracted, cc should be down @ ~3:46 and the factory @ ~4:03):
Important note: If you're going mech, don't skimp on air control! Thors work decently, but currently I prefer using air units, as they also give vision for your siege tanks.
Good OP btw.
I suggest in the video to non stop produce hellions for a while, as blue flame hellions can hold nearly any push. The only way a marine tank early push defeats this build is if they sit the hellions in their base and don't move an inch. If you use them to move around the map and watch towers, you will see them coming and can micro your hellions to kill off the bio units. I don't claim for this to be an easy way to play TvT but I don't think there is a easy way if you ever want to get out of lower leagues.
Worse case they do some form of 1 base all in and you have to pull a hand full of scvs to defend and they'll only have one CC and you should be fine.
Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers.
On September 25 2011 06:42 Maxie wrote: One thing I cannot stress enough is that when going mech, you HAVE to react to what your opponent is doing during the first 10 minutes. If you're doing a hellion based opener and your opponent is going for an early tank/marine push (as is extremely common in Platinum), you have to react to it. If your oppnent is going for a cloaked banshee build, viking + raven is an excellent combo and you can use the tech lab for one of your later factories.
Depending on when you scout a tank push (the 6:20-6:30 scan is the perfect timing, as has been said) and what kind of infrastructure you have, either keep making hellions and get a banshee - if you kill the marines, the tanks are free kills - or get tanks + siege mode yourself.
If you like FE builds I'd highly recommend a 15 gas 1 rax FE, as it lets you get a CC up without delaying your factory too long. If you look at Demuslim's video archive on his stream you'll find older videos where he does this opener.
I find the biggest problem with going mech to be the minerals/gas balance - hellions are your mineral dump and to make them you need factories, which cost gas... so you can get in an iffy spot when it comes to spending your money if you're forced to make tanks earlier than planned, as in this game (disclaimer: high platinum level game, I was late with both the CC and factory because I got distracted, cc should be down @ ~3:46 and the factory @ ~4:03):
Important note: If you're going mech, don't skimp on air control! Thors work decently, but currently I prefer using air units, as they also give vision for your siege tanks.
Good OP btw.
I suggest in the video to non stop produce hellions for a while, as blue flame hellions can hold nearly any push. The only way a marine tank early push defeats this build is if they sit the hellions in their base and don't move an inch. If you use them to move around the map and watch towers, you will see them coming and can micro your hellions to kill off the bio units. I don't claim for this to be an easy way to play TvT but I don't think there is a easy way if you ever want to get out of lower leagues.
Worse case they do some form of 1 base all in and you have to pull a hand full of scvs to defend and they'll only have one CC and you should be fine.
Easy way to get out of the lower leagues is simply to open 1 rax FE and beat them with vastly superior macro and tank control/positioning. If you go mech, then just a BFH drop into expansion into mech with superior macro and tank control/positioning. In TvT, just knowing how to properly use your tanks settles the game pretty easily. Granted, it won't necessarily be a short game unless you crush them with drops or a 2 base timing, but it will be a relatively easy game as your skills won't be strained.
MIcroing your Hellions is a great way to crush the push, but pulling off a few to destroy their mineral line should also be done since they can't reinforce or might even decide to pull back.
And yes... Blue Flame Hellions controlled properly basically holds off any push in TvT (which is why they got nerfed). Even if it doesn't completely clean up the push, it gives you enough time to get up Tanks with Siege Mode and more Hellions, which should clean up the rest unless they have Banshees with it (then you need Vikings).
On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote: Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers.
I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think.
I suggest in the video to non stop produce hellions for a while, as blue flame hellions can hold nearly any push. The only way a marine tank early push defeats this build is if they sit the hellions in their base and don't move an inch. If you use them to move around the map and watch towers, you will see them coming and can micro your hellions to kill off the bio units. I don't claim for this to be an easy way to play TvT but I don't think there is a easy way if you ever want to get out of lower leagues.
Worse case they do some form of 1 base all in and you have to pull a hand full of scvs to defend and they'll only have one CC and you should be fine.
I'll try doing so in a future game where something similar happens, holding it off with hellion/marine alone would certainly allow me to get a better infrastructure rolling than going straight for siege tanks... but going for them still worked out decently. Taking out the marines should be possible with hellions, but I'm still quite worried about the tanks.
A question regarding mech: how important are upgrades? Should they be a priority?
since this thread is about mech could anyone who goes for a mech build similar to the one in the OP with a moderately fast expand post replays of them holding off and beating the 1/1/1 marine/tank/banshee all? i would really appreciate that since i have kind of a hard time versus the 111 even if i go bio or biomech or pure mech.
since this thread is about mech could anyone who goes for a mech build similar to the one in the OP with a moderately fast expand post replays of them holding off and beating the 1/1/1 marine/tank/banshee all? i would really appreciate that since i have kind of a hard time versus the 111 even if i go bio or biomech or pure mech.
I'll try and get one later - it's all about killing marines with hellions as they try to push up to your base. You can't let them siege up right out side your base while killing zero units.
So I read this thread and felt inspired. I got on the ladder making the plan to do this build if I end up playing any tvts (which rarely happen to me, thank god. lol.)
Anyways, I got two TvT's back to back and tried to pull this strategy off. If I recall it was a gas first blue flame opening + expo and just kinda... making tanks and hellions and vikings. Both games are on Shattered temple w/o close positions. Both games I just got rolled by well upgraded mauraders.
Both games I got stomped, but I am really interested in taking this mech style into my TvT's because it just seems like something fun to play with.
So, TL, here are my two replays
I'm by all means an amateur, I have little time to practice my technique, and I don't take offense to you down right saying I am bad. Thank you for posting a guide which made TvT more interesting for me and taking the time to help out.
On September 25 2011 11:29 TheSaddestPanda wrote: So I read this thread and felt inspired. I got on the ladder making the plan to do this build if I end up playing any tvts (which rarely happen to me, thank god. lol.)
Anyways, I got two TvT's back to back and tried to pull this strategy off. If I recall it was a gas first blue flame opening + expo and just kinda... making tanks and hellions and vikings. Both games are on Shattered temple w/o close positions. Both games I just got rolled by well upgraded mauraders.
Both games I got stomped, but I am really interested in taking this mech style into my TvT's because it just seems like something fun to play with.
So, TL, here are my two replays
I'm by all means an amateur, I have little time to practice my technique, and I don't take offense to you down right saying I am bad. Thank you for posting a guide which made TvT more interesting for me and taking the time to help out.
Game 1: I would have pulled workers to hold that 1-base push. Even though you didn't, you'd have been far ahead afterward with constant worker production. That's your main issue: being on 34 workers 2 base. If you were at, say, 50, your income would be way higher and you could have double the tanks.
Watch some Bomber reps from MLG (sc2rep.com) and look at his SCV production and watch him hammer out workers no matter what is going on, as he makes Sjow look like he has bad macro. That's your goal!
You don't necessary want to worry too much about spreading tanks. It's super APM intensive, and while it's very beneficial, macro is much more so. Work on including it in your gameplay once you start winning.
Second game: Same thing, but you get harassed by Reapers and the SCV losses are even more horrific since you have so few of them to start with. You're still ahead on supply count.. with double his army. Imagine if you had 30-40 scvs even after losing those, instead of 19!''
Every game, watch the rep with unit production tab on, switching to harvest count occasionally. You want to be making workers 24/7, one two and then three at a time until you hit 60-70. You'll notice that there are all sorts of things that throw your concentration off, so you have to teach yourself to jump back for just half a second to add more workers during those times.
Once you get these right, other problems WILL creep up (like dying to this or that push, or that harass, or not being able to spend the huge influx of money from actually having a decent worker count.. but you should be able to identify those and deal with them then.)
Q1: Interested in how you react to maurader openings (fairly rare in TvT) but does happen, and with nothing but hellions and a really late tank, I'm not sure how you can properly defend...
Q2: Also, how do you deny the scv scout with no marine and a gas first build, do you ever feel like your opponents gets a good scout on you?
1. No starport techlab flash, no ebay 2. When u scout banshee, continue to produce marines and use them to attack the banshee while getting the viking out 3. Get blue flame before additional factories 4. Reactor on barracks after the viking pops so u can swap with ur factory after blue flame is done 5. Standard is a raven after a viking or two, however you can opt for a medivac given that you confirmed no cloak. I kinda stopped watching, I think there are alot of gaps in this BO.
Q1: Interested in how you react to maurader openings (fairly rare in TvT) but does happen, and with nothing but hellions and a really late tank, I'm not sure how you can properly defend...
If he builds pure mauraders on the opener you counter his scvs tell he is at your main. Once he is there you pull a few scv's with helllions and they will die fairly quickly. Chances are you'll be ahead or even.
Q2: Also, how do you deny the scv scout with no marine and a gas first build, do you ever feel like your opponents gets a good scout on you?
You can wall in but I don't really mind if he scouts me.
5. Standard is a raven after a viking or two, however you can opt for a medivac given that you confirmed no cloak. I kinda stopped watching, I think there are alot of gaps in this BO.
You didn't name one really. Give details on what you would change and why it;s better.
Q1: Interested in how you react to maurader openings (fairly rare in TvT) but does happen, and with nothing but hellions and a really late tank, I'm not sure how you can properly defend...
If he builds pure mauraders on the opener you counter his scvs tell he is at your main. Once he is there you pull a few scv's with helllions and they will die fairly quickly. Chances are you'll be ahead or even.
I was using this build and my opponent went for a very early bio attack. He had 3 Marauders and 2 Marines at my ramp at around the 6:00 mark.
Could you give more details on how to hold this attack because it seems like a build order loss to me. What do you mean by "you counter his scvs tell he is at your main"? The Marauders are going to quickly kill the 1 or 2 Hellions you have at that point and then go to town on any SCVs you pulled.
Q1: Interested in how you react to maurader openings (fairly rare in TvT) but does happen, and with nothing but hellions and a really late tank, I'm not sure how you can properly defend...
If he builds pure mauraders on the opener you counter his scvs tell he is at your main. Once he is there you pull a few scv's with helllions and they will die fairly quickly. Chances are you'll be ahead or even.
I was using this build and my opponent went for a very early bio attack. He had 3 Marauders and 2 Marines at my ramp at around the 6:00 mark.
Could you give more details on how to hold this attack because it seems like a build order loss to me. What do you mean by "you counter his scvs tell he is at your main"? The Marauders are going to quickly kill the 1 or 2 Hellions you have at that point and then go to town on any SCVs you pulled.
Please provide replays, I need to see every thing that happened. Chances are you made mistakes in build orders, micro, decision making etc.
Q1: Interested in how you react to maurader openings (fairly rare in TvT) but does happen, and with nothing but hellions and a really late tank, I'm not sure how you can properly defend...
If he builds pure mauraders on the opener you counter his scvs tell he is at your main. Once he is there you pull a few scv's with helllions and they will die fairly quickly. Chances are you'll be ahead or even.
I was using this build and my opponent went for a very early bio attack. He had 3 Marauders and 2 Marines at my ramp at around the 6:00 mark.
Could you give more details on how to hold this attack because it seems like a build order loss to me. What do you mean by "you counter his scvs tell he is at your main"? The Marauders are going to quickly kill the 1 or 2 Hellions you have at that point and then go to town on any SCVs you pulled.
Please provide replays, I need to see every thing that happened. Chances are you made mistakes in build orders, micro, decision making etc.
I did make mistakes, it was my first time trying the build so it was kind of sloppy.
After practicing the build some more it seems the best you can get at 6 minutes is 3 Hellions out with blue flame finishing up. If you pull some SCVs and get a decent surround you can hold it off, but you're going to lose quite a few SCVs. If your opponent knows how to micro and is rallying reinforcements I think it would be very difficult to recover from the attack.
Q1: Interested in how you react to maurader openings (fairly rare in TvT) but does happen, and with nothing but hellions and a really late tank, I'm not sure how you can properly defend...
If he builds pure mauraders on the opener you counter his scvs tell he is at your main. Once he is there you pull a few scv's with helllions and they will die fairly quickly. Chances are you'll be ahead or even.
I was using this build and my opponent went for a very early bio attack. He had 3 Marauders and 2 Marines at my ramp at around the 6:00 mark.
Could you give more details on how to hold this attack because it seems like a build order loss to me. What do you mean by "you counter his scvs tell he is at your main"? The Marauders are going to quickly kill the 1 or 2 Hellions you have at that point and then go to town on any SCVs you pulled.
Please provide replays, I need to see every thing that happened. Chances are you made mistakes in build orders, micro, decision making etc.
I did make mistakes, it was my first time trying the build so it was kind of sloppy.
After practicing the build some more it seems the best you can get at 6 minutes is 3 Hellions out with blue flame finishing up. If you pull some SCVs and get a decent surround you can hold it off, but you're going to lose quite a few SCVs. If your opponent knows how to micro and is rallying reinforcements I think it would be very difficult to recover from the attack.
3 Marauders kill scvs very very slow. I'm not sure but chances are if they come with a attack that you HAVE to pull scvs they didn't expand and you should be able to be just fine on scvs with 2 cc's. Like I said though I'd need to see replays to tell you for sure if I'm right or wrong.
I suggest in the video to non stop produce hellions for a while, as blue flame hellions can hold nearly any push. The only way a marine tank early push defeats this build is if they sit the hellions in their base and don't move an inch. If you use them to move around the map and watch towers, you will see them coming and can micro your hellions to kill off the bio units. I don't claim for this to be an easy way to play TvT but I don't think there is a easy way if you ever want to get out of lower leagues.
Worse case they do some form of 1 base all in and you have to pull a hand full of scvs to defend and they'll only have one CC and you should be fine.
I'll try doing so in a future game where something similar happens, holding it off with hellion/marine alone would certainly allow me to get a better infrastructure rolling than going straight for siege tanks... but going for them still worked out decently. Taking out the marines should be possible with hellions, but I'm still quite worried about the tanks.
A question regarding mech: how important are upgrades? Should they be a priority?
Upgrade timing for Korean T is generally 12min +1 if both players are meching, against mech you want only +weapon, against bio it varies, but double upgrades are a + if you can afford it.
I was using this build and my opponent went for a very early bio attack. He had 3 Marauders and 2 Marines at my ramp at around the 6:00 mark.
Could you give more details on how to hold this attack because it seems like a build order loss to me. What do you mean by "you counter his scvs tell he is at your main"? The Marauders are going to quickly kill the 1 or 2 Hellions you have at that point and then go to town on any SCVs you pulled.
When I asked for help I provided a replay of this attack coming up against me a couple posts above yours. I held it off, but he hurt me pretty bad. didnt seem to fatal.
I was using this build and my opponent went for a very early bio attack. He had 3 Marauders and 2 Marines at my ramp at around the 6:00 mark.
Could you give more details on how to hold this attack because it seems like a build order loss to me. What do you mean by "you counter his scvs tell he is at your main"? The Marauders are going to quickly kill the 1 or 2 Hellions you have at that point and then go to town on any SCVs you pulled.
When I asked for help I provided a replay of this attack coming up against me a couple posts above yours. I held it off, but he hurt me pretty bad. didnt seem to fatal.
That attack timing came a little later when you already had a tank out, though the composition of his army was very similar. I think lolp is right though, if you pull a bunch of SCVs you should be able to hold it off, then you can catch back up with the 2nd CC. I think it's important to not wall off against this, otherwise they can just hang out at your ramp and pick off buildings without you being able to engage properly.
You are probably right. I could have done more to prevent lossess, if i recall I think I lost an entire tank for no reason. but it was my first time trying out the build & and I havent had another tvt since that day. When I go up against more terran I'll save the replays and post em in here again.
It can be easy to try a build out and lose in a certain way and assume the build is weak to that strategy. The more times you do the build though the more you learn how to micro, and react to their attack.
Lets say they do some weird marauder all in for what ever reason and you auto lose.. some times you'll notice if you pulled 6 scvs or some arbitrary number you'll hold it off with almost no losses and have two cc's up.
When you watch a replay really think to your self "did I time things out right? Did I scout or notice any signs this was coming and didn't prepare? Was my macro and micro great? Was there a small change in my build I can make to make me safe if I did every thing I could to hold it off and stay even almost perfect and it didn't work?"
Pretty much always look at your games like that, as regardless of any build you do if you make big mistakes with it you'll lose. Don't look at it as "wow, this build sucks".
Appreciate the builds you have been putting out man. Both the 1-1 marine timing and this build will likely become the core of my TvZ and TvT respectively . Thanks again!
On September 26 2011 19:21 Vrtigo wrote: Appreciate the builds you have been putting out man. Both the 1-1 marine timing and this build will likely become the core of my TvZ and TvT respectively . Thanks again!
Glad it can help some people! Even if the build it's self does not work for people, it can give them an idea of a build so start modifying to their own play style but with an over-all goal in their build to reach. For example my enemy in this game goes banshee into reactor hellions while I go blue flame hellions into viking, but we both end up with 3 factory's and a starport on two bases pumping mostly the same units.
I have a question about what specific steps do I have to take to hold off an early marine-tank push. I am doing DeMusliM's mech FE build (15 Gas, which allows me to start a CC at 4:00 and finish a factory by 5:20) - basically, I do the same thing as in Maxie's replay and end up in the same situation: with several marines, a viking, 1-2 hellions and BF not even half-done.
1. I noticed that Maxie cancels BF and starts siege mode + produce tanks as soon as he scouts the marine-tank push. Is it necessary to do so?
2. What other things can I do - bunker on high ground? Get 1 banshee?
I hope this is not OT, and thanks for a great thread!
On September 27 2011 04:25 PanzerPony wrote: Hi dear teamliquid community, my first post
I have a question about what specific steps do I have to take to hold off an early marine-tank push. I am doing DeMusliM's mech FE build (15 Gas, which allows me to start a CC at 4:00 and finish a factory by 5:20) - basically, I do the same thing as in Maxie's replay and end up in the same situation: with several marines, a viking, 1-2 hellions and BF not even half-done.
1. I noticed that Maxie cancels BF and starts siege mode + produce tanks as soon as he scouts the marine-tank push. Is it necessary to do so?
2. What other things can I do - bunker on high ground? Get 1 banshee?
I hope this is not OT, and thanks for a great thread!
Well according to the other fine gentlemen in the thread, you should be able to stall it with hellions only, which gives you time to get more units (namely hellions) out to defend.
Try that, since going for tanks that early hurts your infrastructure quite a bit... but getting tanks of your own is the safer option, I think, though it does put you behind in factories.
On September 27 2011 04:25 PanzerPony wrote: Hi dear teamliquid community, my first post
I have a question about what specific steps do I have to take to hold off an early marine-tank push. I am doing DeMusliM's mech FE build (15 Gas, which allows me to start a CC at 4:00 and finish a factory by 5:20) - basically, I do the same thing as in Maxie's replay and end up in the same situation: with several marines, a viking, 1-2 hellions and BF not even half-done.
1. I noticed that Maxie cancels BF and starts siege mode + produce tanks as soon as he scouts the marine-tank push. Is it necessary to do so?
2. What other things can I do - bunker on high ground? Get 1 banshee?
I hope this is not OT, and thanks for a great thread!
Well according to the other fine gentlemen in the thread, you should be able to stall it with hellions only, which gives you time to get more units (namely hellions) out to defend.
Try that, since going for tanks that early hurts your infrastructure quite a bit... but getting tanks of your own is the safer option, I think, though it does put you behind in factories.
Thanks for advise! I also understood that it should be possible to hold it off just using hellions, but how exactly would I do it? I used to do iEchoic's build without FE, so by the time the push starts I would have several BF hellions and catch the push in the middle of the map. Once it has sieged up my ramp though, tanks melt the few hellions I have. With FE I don't have enough hellions to prevent the push from reaching my base. Any suggestions on how to go about it?
On September 27 2011 04:25 PanzerPony wrote: Hi dear teamliquid community, my first post
I have a question about what specific steps do I have to take to hold off an early marine-tank push. I am doing DeMusliM's mech FE build (15 Gas, which allows me to start a CC at 4:00 and finish a factory by 5:20) - basically, I do the same thing as in Maxie's replay and end up in the same situation: with several marines, a viking, 1-2 hellions and BF not even half-done.
1. I noticed that Maxie cancels BF and starts siege mode + produce tanks as soon as he scouts the marine-tank push. Is it necessary to do so?
2. What other things can I do - bunker on high ground? Get 1 banshee?
I hope this is not OT, and thanks for a great thread!
Well according to the other fine gentlemen in the thread, you should be able to stall it with hellions only, which gives you time to get more units (namely hellions) out to defend.
Try that, since going for tanks that early hurts your infrastructure quite a bit... but getting tanks of your own is the safer option, I think, though it does put you behind in factories.
Thanks for advise! I also understood that it should be possible to hold it off just using hellions, but how exactly would I do it? I used to do iEchoic's build without FE, so by the time the push starts I would have several BF hellions and catch the push in the middle of the map. Once it has sieged up my ramp though, tanks melt the few hellions I have. With FE I don't have enough hellions to prevent the push from reaching my base. Any suggestions on how to go about it?
Please start providing replays for these kinds of questions. We need to see exact timings, micro, decisions made, macro and so forth to make any kind of a call which only a replay can provide.
Fair enough, here is a replay of game which made me ask my question. This is a custom game against a guy who seems to be quite a newbie. I play as Tesla.
On September 27 2011 06:42 PanzerPony wrote: Fair enough, here is a replay of game which made me ask my question. This is a custom game against a guy who seems to be quite a newbie. I play as Tesla.
7:11
You lost a hellion 100% unnecessary due to very very late scouting with it, even though it was out. You could have intercepted his push with your marines/hellions and a couple of scvs [even up to 6] in the middle of the map if you scouted properly and crushed it with two CC's up and better tech.
Secondly, even though you have the money there is very long periods of time[over 10 seconds] where you don't produce a single unit out of your factory.
You also build a uneeded viking, and don't even land it in the engagment.
Watching this video you could have held it off with zero scv pulls if you just built units non-stop and didn't have over 20 seconds with no units producing out of your barracks or factory when you had the money, and scouted with your first hellion to see what was going on.
At 7:29 you have 4 marines, a viking, and a hellion. You could have had 6-8 marines, a viking, and 3 hellions and with scouting could have caught him before he sieges right out side of your ramp.
Funny enough even with all the mistakes you made, even with your such very few units you could have held the push off with 4 marines a viking a hellion and 5-8 scvs and still be fine.
On September 27 2011 06:42 PanzerPony wrote: Fair enough, here is a replay of game which made me ask my question. This is a custom game against a guy who seems to be quite a newbie. I play as Tesla.
7:11
You lost a hellion 100% unnecessary due to very very late scouting with it, even though it was out. You could have intercepted his push with your marines/hellions and a couple of scvs [even up to 6] in the middle of the map if you scouted properly and crushed it with two CC's up and better tech.
Secondly, even though you have the money there is very long periods of time[over 10 seconds] where you don't produce a single unit out of your factory.
You also build a uneeded viking, and don't even land it in the engagment.
Watching this video you could have held it off with zero scv pulls if you just built units non-stop and didn't have over 20 seconds with no units producing out of your barracks or factory when you had the money, and scouted with your first hellion to see what was going on.
At 7:29 you have 4 marines, a viking, and a hellion. You could have had 6-8 marines, a viking, and 3 hellions and with scouting could have caught him before he sieges right out side of your ramp.
Funny enough even with all the mistakes you made, even with your such very few units you could have held the push off with 4 marines a viking a hellion and 5-8 scvs and still be fine.
Thank you HansK.
As I understand from your reply, it is key to catch the push before it sieges, even if it means pulling several SCVs. If it sieges my ramp, holding it becomes more difficult.
I will focus on my macro mistakes to have all production buildings constantly producing, thanks for pointing this out to me.
On September 27 2011 06:42 PanzerPony wrote: Fair enough, here is a replay of game which made me ask my question. This is a custom game against a guy who seems to be quite a newbie. I play as Tesla.
7:11
You lost a hellion 100% unnecessary due to very very late scouting with it, even though it was out. You could have intercepted his push with your marines/hellions and a couple of scvs [even up to 6] in the middle of the map if you scouted properly and crushed it with two CC's up and better tech.
Secondly, even though you have the money there is very long periods of time[over 10 seconds] where you don't produce a single unit out of your factory.
You also build a uneeded viking, and don't even land it in the engagment.
Watching this video you could have held it off with zero scv pulls if you just built units non-stop and didn't have over 20 seconds with no units producing out of your barracks or factory when you had the money, and scouted with your first hellion to see what was going on.
At 7:29 you have 4 marines, a viking, and a hellion. You could have had 6-8 marines, a viking, and 3 hellions and with scouting could have caught him before he sieges right out side of your ramp.
Funny enough even with all the mistakes you made, even with your such very few units you could have held the push off with 4 marines a viking a hellion and 5-8 scvs and still be fine.
Thank you HansK.
As I understand from your reply, it is key to catch the push before it sieges, even if it means pulling several SCVs. If it sieges my ramp, holding it becomes more difficult.
I will focus on my macro mistakes to have all production buildings constantly producing, thanks for pointing this out to me.
Pretty much if you don't stop producing hellions ever from your factory and scout with your first hellion ASAP and focus not on losing it you will see the push coming. If you were producing out of barracks and factory until the tank was mid-map you would have completely owned it, even if you had bad micro you could have brought 6 scvs and still crushed it and be ahead.
On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote: Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers.
I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think.
I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back.
But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost.
His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done.
This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid.
On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote: Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers.
I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think.
I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back.
But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost.
His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done.
This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid.
What I marked in bold is where your entire post makes zero sense what so ever, It's not even close to the same thing and is in no way shape or form comparable. One is 100% under your control, and the other is pure random chance.
If you have no say in if hurricane winds start up or not, then of course it's logical to think extensively on what to do if it does happen if you plan on sailing. In this case though you control rather or not you lose air control, so your efforts are better spent focusing on your air control only. It's fine to lightly think "if i mess up big what should I do" but there should be no extensive thought at all on what to do if you mess up, instead the thought should be focused on not to mess up to start with.
On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote: Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers.
I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think.
I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back.
But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost.
His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done.
This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid.
What I marked in bold is where your entire post makes zero sense what so ever, It's not even close to the same thing and is in no way shape or form comparable. One is 100% under your control, and the other is pure random chance.
If you have no say in if hurricane winds start up or not, then of course it's logical to think extensively on what to do if it does happen if you plan on sailing. In this case though you control rather or not you lose air control, so your efforts are better spent focusing on your air control only. It's fine to lightly think "if i mess up big what should I do" but there should be no extensive thought at all on what to do if you mess up, instead the thought should be focused on not to mess up to start with.
That's a fair point; Sc2 does not have rolling of the dice or random chance. It's worth noting, though, that a good sailor can see weather coming and try to avoid it, in the same sense that you can see viking production coming and try to avoid getting outvikinged.
However, I also think you can lose air control without making a big mistake. Allow me to offer this situation: two terran players of equal skill are playing, and they're both using your build order and philosophy. Barring some incredible coincidences, one of them will end up with air control, and one of them will end up losing some air control. What should the one who loses some air control do?
On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote: Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers.
I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think.
I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back.
But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost.
His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done.
This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid.
What I marked in bold is where your entire post makes zero sense what so ever, It's not even close to the same thing and is in no way shape or form comparable. One is 100% under your control, and the other is pure random chance.
If you have no say in if hurricane winds start up or not, then of course it's logical to think extensively on what to do if it does happen if you plan on sailing. In this case though you control rather or not you lose air control, so your efforts are better spent focusing on your air control only. It's fine to lightly think "if i mess up big what should I do" but there should be no extensive thought at all on what to do if you mess up, instead the thought should be focused on not to mess up to start with.
That's a fair point; Sc2 does not have rolling of the dice or random chance. It's worth noting, though, that a good sailor can see weather coming and try to avoid it, in the same sense that you can see viking production coming and try to avoid getting outvikinged.
However, I also think you can lose air control without making a big mistake. Allow me to offer this situation: two terran players of equal skill are playing, and they're both using your build order and philosophy. Barring some incredible coincidences, one of them will end up with air control, and one of them will end up losing some air control. What should the one who loses some ar control do?
Lose because he played worse in that game than the other player. If they both are equal skill level then they would never lose to the other person with the very large advantage. If you lose air control the other person had better micro or economy or macro than you or maybe a mixture of them. You control those aspects of the game entirely and it's a mirror match up so really there is no possible way that it was based on a roll of the dice.
On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote: Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers.
I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think.
I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back.
But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost.
His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done.
This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid.
What I marked in bold is where your entire post makes zero sense what so ever, It's not even close to the same thing and is in no way shape or form comparable. One is 100% under your control, and the other is pure random chance.
If you have no say in if hurricane winds start up or not, then of course it's logical to think extensively on what to do if it does happen if you plan on sailing. In this case though you control rather or not you lose air control, so your efforts are better spent focusing on your air control only. It's fine to lightly think "if i mess up big what should I do" but there should be no extensive thought at all on what to do if you mess up, instead the thought should be focused on not to mess up to start with.
That's a fair point; Sc2 does not have rolling of the dice or random chance. It's worth noting, though, that a good sailor can see weather coming and try to avoid it, in the same sense that you can see viking production coming and try to avoid getting outvikinged.
However, I also think you can lose air control without making a big mistake. Allow me to offer this situation: two terran players of equal skill are playing, and they're both using your build order and philosophy. Barring some incredible coincidences, one of them will end up with air control, and one of them will end up losing some air control. What should the one who loses some ar control do?
Lose because he played worse in that game than the other player. If they both are equal skill level then they would never lose to the other person with the very large advantage. If you lose air control the other person had better micro or economy or macro than you or maybe a mixture of them. You control those aspects of the game entirely and it's a mirror match up so really there is no possible way that it was based on a roll of the dice.
Well then, I suppose it is here that our opinions diverge. I respect you as a player and as a helper to those who need help, but I believe that if one player drops down a few vikings against his opponent, instead of losing, he should make a thor or two and try to regain air control. I believe we will have to 'agree to disagree' on this point.
On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote: Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers.
I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think.
I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back.
But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost.
His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done.
This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid.
What I marked in bold is where your entire post makes zero sense what so ever, It's not even close to the same thing and is in no way shape or form comparable. One is 100% under your control, and the other is pure random chance.
If you have no say in if hurricane winds start up or not, then of course it's logical to think extensively on what to do if it does happen if you plan on sailing. In this case though you control rather or not you lose air control, so your efforts are better spent focusing on your air control only. It's fine to lightly think "if i mess up big what should I do" but there should be no extensive thought at all on what to do if you mess up, instead the thought should be focused on not to mess up to start with.
That's a fair point; Sc2 does not have rolling of the dice or random chance. It's worth noting, though, that a good sailor can see weather coming and try to avoid it, in the same sense that you can see viking production coming and try to avoid getting outvikinged.
However, I also think you can lose air control without making a big mistake. Allow me to offer this situation: two terran players of equal skill are playing, and they're both using your build order and philosophy. Barring some incredible coincidences, one of them will end up with air control, and one of them will end up losing some air control. What should the one who loses some ar control do?
Lose because he played worse in that game than the other player. If they both are equal skill level then they would never lose to the other person with the very large advantage. If you lose air control the other person had better micro or economy or macro than you or maybe a mixture of them. You control those aspects of the game entirely and it's a mirror match up so really there is no possible way that it was based on a roll of the dice.
Well then, I suppose it is here that our opinions diverge. I respect you as a player and as a helper to those who need help, but I believe that if one player drops down a few vikings against his opponent, instead of losing, he should make a thor or two and try to regain air control. I believe we will have to 'agree to disagree' on this point.
I never said they shouldn't I agree they should. I said they should focus more of their efforts on not losing it in the first place, I in no way said no you should not build a thor and instead said that you should put some light thought into what you should do if you do lose air control(building a thor or two would be considered light though).
On September 25 2011 07:17 RyLai wrote: Mech is pretty easy to play and pretty self explanatory isn't it? Maybe that's because I learned pretty good TvT fundamentals watching Jinro vs BoxeR so I know to focus on air control and meticulous tank positioning while using everything else to harass as possible. You just play with concept a few times with the goal of 2 Tech Lab Factories, 1 Reactor Factory, and 1 Reactor Starport (building Banshees and/or Ravens as needed before adding the reactor) on two bases.
Oh, and early Hellion control/superiority is key. Delaying Tanks is fine if you're way ahead in Hellions (cause surprisingly they do well vs Tanks once you have enough of them). Also, if you're ahead in Hellions, you can run into his mineral lines!
I guess these are things you learn from playing a lot of TvT.
The key to breaking a tank line is simply having an overwhelmingly superior army or splitting your units up and attacking from all sides with your units split (can basically be considered a giant flank).
Thors also should only be used when you're way behind in air control. Also, with Mech, if you're way ahead in air control and have a lot of bases, a great transition is Battlecruisers.
I try to promote proper play and not fall-back play. You should really focus 100% on never losing air control to begin with if that is your goal. There should never be extensive thought into any plans if you play terrible on how to come back I don't think.
I understand what you're trying to get at; I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back.
But that's not where this story ends; for although losing air control as mech is the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught in a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessary dashed on the rocks / lost.
His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done.
This is why a statement about Thors and air control is valid.
What I marked in bold is where your entire post makes zero sense what so ever, It's not even close to the same thing and is in no way shape or form comparable. One is 100% under your control, and the other is pure random chance.
If you have no say in if hurricane winds start up or not, then of course it's logical to think extensively on what to do if it does happen if you plan on sailing. In this case though you control rather or not you lose air control, so your efforts are better spent focusing on your air control only. It's fine to lightly think "if i mess up big what should I do" but there should be no extensive thought at all on what to do if you mess up, instead the thought should be focused on not to mess up to start with.
That's a fair point; Sc2 does not have rolling of the dice or random chance. It's worth noting, though, that a good sailor can see weather coming and try to avoid it, in the same sense that you can see viking production coming and try to avoid getting outvikinged.
However, I also think you can lose air control without making a big mistake. Allow me to offer this situation: two terran players of equal skill are playing, and they're both using your build order and philosophy. Barring some incredible coincidences, one of them will end up with air control, and one of them will end up losing some air control. What should the one who loses some ar control do?
Lose because he played worse in that game than the other player. If they both are equal skill level then they would never lose to the other person with the very large advantage. If you lose air control the other person had better micro or economy or macro than you or maybe a mixture of them. You control those aspects of the game entirely and it's a mirror match up so really there is no possible way that it was based on a roll of the dice.
Well then, I suppose it is here that our opinions diverge. I respect you as a player and as a helper to those who need help, but I believe that if one player drops down a few vikings against his opponent, instead of losing, he should make a thor or two and try to regain air control. I believe we will have to 'agree to disagree' on this point.
I never said they shouldn't I agree they should. I said they should focus more of their efforts on not losing it in the first place, I in no way said no you should not build a thor and instead said that you should put some light thought into what you should do if you do lose air control(building a thor or two would be considered light though).
Ah, so it seems we are in agreement! Never mind, then. I was somewhat confused after the last couple posts because of this exchange: Here's what I said:
What should the one who loses some ar control do?
That was the ending sentence of my post. The opening sentence of your post was:
Lose because he played worse in that game than the other player.
I thought you literally said that he should just lose. I'm glad that I am wrong; I must have misinterpreted that as you saying that someone who loses air control should lose rather than make a thor, as a direct response to my question, and holding with some of your previous statements.
On October 03 2011 00:18 ducis wrote: how do I hold a 1/1/1 marine tank banshee scv all in with this opening?
Scout and prepare. You should have a viking out by the time the banshee gets there, and you should have a turret [or raven] for when/if he gets cloak.
Secondly, you need to scout and not lose hellions. Keep your hellions controlling the middle of the map and use hellion micro to get free marine kills and if you have to right before he sieges up your base surround with some scvs hellions and the 1 tank or so you'll have out, once the marines are gone you automatically win.
I'm continuing to practice this tvt mech but I have a question.
You mention throughout the guide that you eventually can keep up with upgrades while playing the game out. When do you get your first armory? Do you get double armory? Which do you upgrade first, attack or armor?
I feel like I'd rather use the armory to pump out 1/1 in my air ASAP instead of mech.
From liquipedia:
Upgrades
Before reaching three bases, there's generally not that many upgrades involved in mech play - Siege Mode and Infernal Pre-Igniter are the only required ones. Attack upgrades for mech are not very useful against a marine/marauder-heavy opponent as it takes a lot of upgrades before they actually make a difference in how many tank shots it takes to kill them. Armor upgrades may let your mech army survive longer, but against a bio-heavy style your goal should be to avoid taking those shots in the first place.
If both players are going mech, upgrades are a bit more favourable. A big reason for this is that an Armory is required for Thors which soak up a lot of tank damage. Some important Armory upgrades are:
If your opponent has no mech armor upgrades, +1 attack on your Siege Tanks will allow them to kill your opponent's Siege Tanks in 3 shots instead of 4 (while sieged) No matter the armor upgrades, +1 attack on your Siege Tanks will allow them to kill your opponent's Thors in 7 shots instead of 8 (while sieged) Until your opponent gets +2 armor, +2 attack on your Siege Tanks will allow them to kill your opponent's Thors in 6 shots +1 air armor on your Vikings will allow them to survive one extra volley from other Vikings until your opponent gets +1 air attack Later in the game, if you transition into mass air, air armor upgrades get very important, especially if you have the superior Viking count. The only ground-to-air capabilities Terran has (Marines, Thors and Missile Turrets) don't do a lot of damage but do it very quickly, which means that armor upgrades are very effective.
On October 05 2011 12:39 TheSaddestPanda wrote: Hansk,
I'm continuing to practice this tvt mech but I have a question.
You mention throughout the guide that you eventually can keep up with upgrades while playing the game out. When do you get your first armory? Do you get double armory? Which do you upgrade first, attack or armor?
I feel like I'd rather use the armory to pump out 1/1 in my air ASAP instead of mech.
From liquipedia:
Upgrades
Before reaching three bases, there's generally not that many upgrades involved in mech play - Siege Mode and Infernal Pre-Igniter are the only required ones. Attack upgrades for mech are not very useful against a marine/marauder-heavy opponent as it takes a lot of upgrades before they actually make a difference in how many tank shots it takes to kill them. Armor upgrades may let your mech army survive longer, but against a bio-heavy style your goal should be to avoid taking those shots in the first place.
If both players are going mech, upgrades are a bit more favourable. A big reason for this is that an Armory is required for Thors which soak up a lot of tank damage. Some important Armory upgrades are:
If your opponent has no mech armor upgrades, +1 attack on your Siege Tanks will allow them to kill your opponent's Siege Tanks in 3 shots instead of 4 (while sieged) No matter the armor upgrades, +1 attack on your Siege Tanks will allow them to kill your opponent's Thors in 7 shots instead of 8 (while sieged) Until your opponent gets +2 armor, +2 attack on your Siege Tanks will allow them to kill your opponent's Thors in 6 shots +1 air armor on your Vikings will allow them to survive one extra volley from other Vikings until your opponent gets +1 air attack Later in the game, if you transition into mass air, air armor upgrades get very important, especially if you have the superior Viking count. The only ground-to-air capabilities Terran has (Marines, Thors and Missile Turrets) don't do a lot of damage but do it very quickly, which means that armor upgrades are very effective.
Most Korean gamers start their +1 vehicle weapons at around 11-12 minutes. I'm still personally trying to get a feel of the best timing to get upgrades. They are how ever very important, some people really skip upgrades for "a couple" of extra units when if they just built a few less tanks they could have 3-0 ups.
Hey thanks for this man I've been looking for a straight up standard build to play TvT mech that can get me into the late game where my macro will allow me to overtake opponents.
Only thing I think you're lacking in the guide is replays, if you could upload some replays vs various builds/styles you've come across that would be much appreciated
On October 07 2011 13:03 Tonem wrote: Hey thanks for this man I've been looking for a straight up standard build to play TvT mech that can get me into the late game where my macro will allow me to overtake opponents.
Only thing I think you're lacking in the guide is replays, if you could upload some replays vs various builds/styles you've come across that would be much appreciated
I try to get more but when I only play 5 games a day a lot of the times it's no terran or one terran, and even then it's most of the time a really odd or weird game due to mid master ladder people.
I'd love to find some quality practice partners not only to get better videos and replays but to improve my game as well.
do you get ravens even when you don't scout banshees with your 6:20 scan? it seems if I get it no matter what after my first 1 or 2 vikings, I can switch the tech lab off to a factory when I expand, then kick into full viking production
I also just recently lost this game to a weird ghost timing attack. My scan was 10-15 seconds late but I don't think it would have seen the ghosts anyway. How can you hold off this attack? I think I would have lost even if I did repair properly
On October 09 2011 19:07 Escoffier wrote: do you get ravens even when you don't scout banshees with your 6:20 scan? it seems if I get it no matter what after my first 1 or 2 vikings, I can switch the tech lab off to a factory when I expand, then kick into full viking production
I also just recently lost this game to a weird ghost timing attack. My scan was 10-15 seconds late but I don't think it would have seen the ghosts anyway. How can you hold off this attack? I think I would have lost even if I did repair properly
If I can't rule out banshees almost 100% I get a turrets and a viking and then a raven, if I see no sign of banshees I wait a decent while to get my raven. It doesn't help very much in the early game like it does in the late game but I do think in mech TvT a few ravens are almost always needed.
I'll have to watch your replay later but my guess is good scouting and bunkers could have won it.
Often I face a marine tank push at the 8-10 minute mark. I can delay with hellions fine, but the problem arises when my opponent rallies reactored vikings to my natural.
Over time he'll have an expansion and I'll be stuck in my base with just hellions and maybe a couple tanks.
On October 10 2011 05:18 Grndr101 wrote: Ok I have a question regarding air control.
Often I face a marine tank push at the 8-10 minute mark. I can delay with hellions fine, but the problem arises when my opponent rallies reactored vikings to my natural.
Over time he'll have an expansion and I'll be stuck in my base with just hellions and maybe a couple tanks.
Question is: how do i prevent this contain?
Please post replays for people to attempt to help answer, saying something like that is far too general with out any timings and I can't take micro, macro, and decision making into play. It's sort of like saying "I lose to 3 hellions at around 9 minutes... What do I do?".
On October 09 2011 19:07 Escoffier wrote: do you get ravens even when you don't scout banshees with your 6:20 scan? it seems if I get it no matter what after my first 1 or 2 vikings, I can switch the tech lab off to a factory when I expand, then kick into full viking production
I also just recently lost this game to a weird ghost timing attack. My scan was 10-15 seconds late but I don't think it would have seen the ghosts anyway. How can you hold off this attack? I think I would have lost even if I did repair properly
If I can't rule out banshees almost 100% I get a turrets and a viking and then a raven, if I see no sign of banshees I wait a decent while to get my raven. It doesn't help very much in the early game like it does in the late game but I do think in mech TvT a few ravens are almost always needed.
I'll have to watch your replay later but my guess is good scouting and bunkers could have won it.
well I tried popping in with my first hellion but there was a wall off. when I had two, I walked up the ramp and he had 4 ghosts or something like that. it was really weird
On October 09 2011 19:07 Escoffier wrote: do you get ravens even when you don't scout banshees with your 6:20 scan? it seems if I get it no matter what after my first 1 or 2 vikings, I can switch the tech lab off to a factory when I expand, then kick into full viking production
I also just recently lost this game to a weird ghost timing attack. My scan was 10-15 seconds late but I don't think it would have seen the ghosts anyway. How can you hold off this attack? I think I would have lost even if I did repair properly
If I can't rule out banshees almost 100% I get a turrets and a viking and then a raven, if I see no sign of banshees I wait a decent while to get my raven. It doesn't help very much in the early game like it does in the late game but I do think in mech TvT a few ravens are almost always needed.
I'll have to watch your replay later but my guess is good scouting and bunkers could have won it.
well I tried popping in with my first hellion but there was a wall off. when I had two, I walked up the ramp and he had 4 ghosts or something like that. it was really weird
I got around to watching your replay and you made some major mistakes. The first is losing the first hellion, there is no real reason for it happening. When you go to poke with it keep your eye on it.
Second you don't control either watch tower when you could have with no issue what so ever. If you didn't lose your first hellion, and watched the watch tower[s] you would have had 5 hellions by the time the push came to your door and you could have had a bunker going up with marines producing as well to help hold off the push, you might have had to pull a couple scvs, but even if you had to pull 10 you would have been in a fine spot due to two cc's up and he doesn't even have a second one up. [two mules and double scv production].
Even with the situation you were in due to bad scouting and decision making you could have held it if you let him up your ramp and surrounded with scvs, viking, hellions, and a marine or two. Instead you walled off your ramp and had a few scvs just sitting there idle getting picked off at with 800 minerals not producing any marines nor hellions nor bunkers or anything.
On October 09 2011 19:07 Escoffier wrote: do you get ravens even when you don't scout banshees with your 6:20 scan? it seems if I get it no matter what after my first 1 or 2 vikings, I can switch the tech lab off to a factory when I expand, then kick into full viking production
I also just recently lost this game to a weird ghost timing attack. My scan was 10-15 seconds late but I don't think it would have seen the ghosts anyway. How can you hold off this attack? I think I would have lost even if I did repair properly
If I can't rule out banshees almost 100% I get a turrets and a viking and then a raven, if I see no sign of banshees I wait a decent while to get my raven. It doesn't help very much in the early game like it does in the late game but I do think in mech TvT a few ravens are almost always needed.
I'll have to watch your replay later but my guess is good scouting and bunkers could have won it.
well I tried popping in with my first hellion but there was a wall off. when I had two, I walked up the ramp and he had 4 ghosts or something like that. it was really weird
I got around to watching your replay and you made some major mistakes. The first is losing the first hellion, there is no real reason for it happening. When you go to poke with it keep your eye on it.
Second you don't control either watch tower when you could have with no issue what so ever. If you didn't lose your first hellion, and watched the watch tower[s] you would have had 5 hellions by the time the push came to your door and you could have had a bunker going up with marines producing as well to help hold off the push, you might have had to pull a couple scvs, but even if you had to pull 10 you would have been in a fine spot due to two cc's up and he doesn't even have a second one up. [two mules and double scv production].
Even with the situation you were in due to bad scouting and decision making you could have held it if you let him up your ramp and surrounded with scvs, viking, hellions, and a marine or two. Instead you walled off your ramp and had a few scvs just sitting there idle getting picked off at with 800 minerals not producing any marines nor hellions nor bunkers or anything.
yeah I see my mistakes now. thanks! I'm at ~80% win rate with this build now
Hey thx for the guide I have decided to move to mech in TvT as TvT is keeping me from promoting out of diamond at present.
I had a question - if you scout early reaper expand / bio build with a FE does it make sense to hold off on blue flame and get siege mode straight away? I have been able to do ok when its marine heavy but if his medevac push is mara heavy its tough if siege is not finished.
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