|
[G] PvP : DT -> Chareglot/Archon
Revision [ 3 ]
Changelog (oldest to newest descending):
> Rewrote overview
> Made large changes to Mid Game Section
> Clarified Late Game Section
> [ NEW ] Added in Useful Notes section
Overview
It's been a while since I last released a guide! I'm so sorry, huge lack of free time in college >.< I want to post up something I was pretty passionate about trying about a month ago, and since then I just haven't had any time to work on it further. So before it gets lost, I'd like to share this idea with the community in hopes people can try out some interesting PvP strategies based off of this post.
I stole the idea for this type of play from iSTime one day on ladder. So I meet him on ladder and start asking about MLG, then realize I had gotten an Assimilator before my Gateway, or something stupid like that. Long story short, he killed me with a single really fast Archon (from DT tech), and a slew of chargelots!
And so I stole the idea. DT into Chargelot Archon. I've played this style against some of the highest NA players (GoSuGatored, iSMentalist, various GM Protoss) and it seems a solid and different way to play. Here's a good point as pointed out by GomJabbar:
GomJabbar wrote:
DTs force (and are weakest against) robo tech. Chargelots and archons are quite good against robo tech in the early and mid game. So it's a pretty effective transition.
By getting Dark Templar onto the field, you force down detection. If your opponent has none, you simply win. By playing with this style you'll simply beat every player that skips detection. The nice thing about forcing down detection is that cannons can't move, and so your opponent needs a Robotics Facility if they plan to take their Natural, or leave their base at all. A Roboics Facility and an Observer costs 175 Vespene. A player with a Robo really needs two Observers however in order to move out of their base (detection in base and on army), raising the total cost in vespene to 250 Vespene for detection alone. This is the cost of your Dark Shrine!
If a player already planned on getting a Robotics Facility, then they'll like construct units that attack from their Robo. This means you now have an army advantage in the mid-game due to Chargelot/Archon's ability to trade very cost-efficiently (with proper engagements), and can take a faster expansion than your opponent.
Choose your Opening
As I do with most of my threads lately, I include a Choose your Opening section. The same goes for this style, and since this is a style rather than set in stone instructions, it can be done in many different ways. I've done 1 Gate FE, 2 Gate 3 Stalker -> FE, 3 Stalker -> 1 base, etc.
I recommend going with a 3 Stalker opening, as it's just an extremely solid mid-game opening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ79QLD-ZEI&feature=channel_video_title
Mid-Game
I define mid-game as the portion of time after the 6 minute mark when any 4 Gate attempt is either tried or feigned. As this time passes, it is best for you to be faking a 4 Gate if you can. Place a couple Pylons at your enemy's ramp, and run your triple Stalkers over for early game support. As your last pylon is killed start warping things in so they are cancelled, then immediately place your Dark Shrine. Your opponent isn't going to attack you at this point, unless you let them realize something is off or they are just plain bad.
Take this time to get out your DT tech. This is also the time to be researching Charge (while Dark Shrine is constructing), and making a lot of Zealots. Keep your early game Stalkers out on the field and active, as to deny towers/kill wandering probes. You should aim for having Charge finish shortly after DT tech is finished. Once DT tech is finished you should be able to afford a couple DT. You should more than likely try to get one in your opponent's mineral line. Try to lure the enemy obs away and sneak it in. The rest of your DT you warp in should be immediately made into Archons.
Once your first Archon is constructed you can try to bust your opponent's ramp. The best thing to stop this timing attack is just a Pylon + 2 Gateways on your opponents ramp. If these buildings are there, you should just back down and expand.
If he has a Robotics facility, then Immortals are going to suck, and the same goes for Colossus (only have one at this point in time). There's a fair chance that if you bust the ramp cleanly you'll kill your opponent at this point in a very one-sided battle (you need a proxy pylon to reinforce!). Be aware however that this is indeed a risk if the opponent does have Sentries, as it can be really difficult to get an Archon to run over a FF when Chargelots are swarming around.
Often times on close positions mid game, the opponent will go for a 1 base Colossus allin. Just be sure to engage down the ramp and away from any mineral lines, and you should be able to come out on top due to cost-efficiency. I have a replay that exemplifies this wonderfully, where I was down from the early game about 700 resources, and still won a battle due to a smart DT in a mineral line and proper engagement.
A Chargelot/Archon composition in the mid-game will also auto-win against any Stargate opening. I have a replay that exemplifies this against some GM protoss on I believe Xel'Naga Caverns.
I almost every game will transition into an expansion + Blink followed by a Robotics Facility. You can usually take a very fast expansion after the first Archon due to an ability to win battles with cost-efficiency in an open engagement.
Nexus Timing
When exactly do you expand? You can place your Nexus in trade of 4 Zealots at any point in time. This can be when your Dark Shrine is constructing and your Stalkers are mid-field. I do this pretty often, though you have to know if your opponent is likely to allin or not (an allin hitting before charge/DT will likely kill you). Times when you can do this are when you are ahead, had a very convincing fake 4 Gate, your fake 4 Gate actually set your opponent's build off and he made mistakes, your opponent simply doesn't move until he has an Observer out (which means your first DT should wreak havoc!).
Often times I place my Nexus after I realize I can't bust the ramp and kill my opponent. It's usually pretty clear as to whether or not I can bust up the ramp. If he has his army on the top of the ramp and has a few Sentries, you probably can't kill him unless you have a very early and well timed first Archon + Charge. If he skipped the Sentries and is rushing for Colo, or something else, you can probably win with a timing attack.
So to reiterate, you can place your Nexus after your first Archon in trade for 4 Zealots. Don't do this if you see an allin from your opponent billowing across the map (think 2 Colossus or some sort of Immortal allin).
Weak Spots
There is definitely a weak spot in this style, and that is the time before Charge finishes. If you are playing a really bad player, the chances of him arbitrarily attacking you are higher than normal. So take this into consideration! Against a more keen opponent you can be active with your early game Stalkers, and have a very good chance that your opponent won't know what's going on with your Zealot stockpile until it's all too late.
Trying to bust the ramp at different times with Archons has lead to quite a few losses on my end. You can definitely do it, especially in lower leagues, but it's really hard to kill a player busting up their ramp unless you have a good amount of experience doing so, or do it really well. You have to have your Archon bust the FF's, you have to spread your Zealots against Colossi splash, you have to prevent your opponent from abusing your Zealots' short range. Just know that it's much easier to wait for your opponent to move down their ramp and engage mid-map, than to aggressively walk up their ramp.
Later Composition
Since you should have a faster expansion than your opponent, you should be able to easily get a good composition for late game. I prefer Blink, Chargelot, Archon + Storm. I also recommend just going with Chargelot Archon + Colossus, as it's much easier to manage. I believe I have one replay where I just went with lots of Chargelots, a few Archons, skipped Blink and got a couple Immortals instead. Immortal + Blink + Charge + Archons are just a proven strong composition on Xel'Naga Caverns, and as such I play that way on such a map and others like it.
To make it simple, late game you really just need to be sure you don't stick to only Chargelot/Archon as a crutch, or else you'll lose to a 2 base turtle on Colossus tech.
Useful Notes
On November 17 2011 03:37 dbald27 wrote:
I used to use this build almost every single pvp. My thoughts on it are as follows (top masters protoss NA)
1 The early dts are great for autowin vs non robo openings (however 3 gate robo is very common these days)
2 You have an army that will win every fight in the middle of the map until more than 2 colossus are present
3 You cannot push at a players ramp, EVER. Forcefield and chokes are impossible to push through, so your opponent is safe to turtle
4 You can get a faster expansion than your opponent, and deny theirs if they attempt to expand before you
5 In the mid game (2 or more base) it becomes disadvantageous. Basically you are a zerg player fighting colossus with ling roach. Flanks are an absolute NECESSITY due to colossus ability to kite and deal massive damage.
6 A quick dt transition from an opponent will kill you. Scout them to see where gas is going. Get a robo as you expand.
7 Immortals are key to fighting blink stalkers and colossus, get lots of them (4 or more)
8 On three base colossus is crucial, you cant really avoid this.
In general chargelot archon immortal is really fun in PvP, but is more difficult, micro intensive, and fragile than colossus. However, it is absolutely as good as colossus if done properly, and potentially is more powerful than robo builds at the highest level.
On November 17 2011 02:44 CryMore wrote:
I have a good deal of experience with DT archon busts. The best way to do it is to push the morphing archon through the force field with the zealots. This way the AI will not target the archon and attack your zealots, helping to keep it alive. It's a bit tricky to pull off but very rewarding as it lets the archon close it's distance without taking too much damage.
Replays
I made a small replay pack a while ago and never posted it up. I wanted to get a better collection of replays going, but just never had the time to play more. As such I feel it's time to release this PvP style, as an entire new patch has come around.
- http://drop.sc/packs/316
- Game by: Quochobao
- http://drop.sc/77408 - Ladder match!
- http://drop.sc/77407 - Ladder match!
- http://drop.sc/77406 - Ladder match!
- http://drop.sc/77409 - Ladder match!
- http://drop.sc/77410 - Ladder match!
- Submit your own replays to this thread! I'm a little tired of seeing guides go up on TL without participants posting up their replays. It would be great to get a list going of different skill levels of people trying this style out in PvP
|
I've played against a similar strategy several times on ladder. My main concern for this play would be timing attacks. If your Templar don't do much damage, then your trying to take a 2nd base, while using Chargelots and DT Archons as your main army. This has 3 problems.
1) Your opponent will be ahead since you didn't do much damage beyond forcing another obs, picking off a few workers or a sentry, and forcing some lost mining time.
2) DT Archons are very piss poor for the cost
3) Chargelots vs Zealots = 200/200 almost useless upgrade. In fact sometimes with chargelot mirror, I've regretted having charge on autocast, since if you let your opponent slam in to your army instead, your archons get shots off before his do.
It just seems vulnerable to a good timing, and I have bust DT Chargelot Archon with a 4gate stargate timing multiple times.
Obviously if your DT do good damage, that's a different story, and they can do anything from break even, to win the game outright vs your opponent, so I don't think this strategy is "bad" as much as really risky. If you want to play around with DT's on ladder or as an off-game strat in a best of 3 (which I do on occasion) then yea this looks quite well planed out.
|
On November 10 2011 13:46 Dredrick wrote:
I've played against a similar strategy several times on ladder. My main concern for this play would be timing attacks. If your Templar don't do much damage, then your trying to take a 2nd base, while using Chargelots and DT Archons as your main army. This has 3 problems.
1) Your opponent will be ahead since you didn't do much damage beyond forcing another obs, picking off a few workers or a sentry, and forcing some lost mining time.
2) DT Archons are very piss poor for the cost
3) Chargelots vs Zealots = 200/200 almost useless upgrade. In fact sometimes with chargelot mirror, I've regretted having charge on autocast, since if you let your opponent slam in to your army instead, your archons get shots off before his do.
It just seems vulnerable to a good timing, and I have bust DT Chargelot Archon with a 4gate stargate timing multiple times.
Obviously if your DT do good damage, that's a different story, and they can do anything from break even, to win the game outright vs your opponent, so I don't think this strategy is "bad" as much as really risky. If you want to play around with DT's on ladder or as an off-game strat in a best of 3 (which I do on occasion) then yea this looks quite well planed out.
Well it's of course best for your first DT to do damage, but you don't just auto-lose like you're making it out to sound.
I also just plain disagree with point 1, 2, and definitely 3. Charge is only useless if you make it so.
|
hmm this looks like a good version of the build I was trying to work out T.T. Well atleast I think I helped put the idea out there.
|
I'm not suggesting it's an auto loss, it is a weak spot though.
Can you please explain how opening DT doesn't put you behind, and how DT archons are cost efficient, because I don't understand.
|
Will this die to just a normal non-colossi 3 gate robo timing attack with 1(or 2) immortal? If your opponent has 1 immortal 1-2 obs, the cost of it isn't as much as Twilight, Charge, Dark Shrine and a few DTs to harass. So the leftover would be basically your zealots + 1 archon vs his entire army being produced off 3 gates. Let's say he has a very nice composition of zealot and stalkers with 1-2 high energy sentries, if he attacks you right after killing your DTs, wouldn't the engagement go in his favour? He can throw forcefields and cover the sides so your zealots can't surround his stalkers/immortal and 1 archon wouldn't be able to stomp over all the forcefields before getting target fired down. Not to mention if you took an expansion, you will be 4 zealots down compared to your opponent. Your zealot count would be slightly higher than your opponent's, but he will have stalkers and immortals to deal extra damage at the back while your zealots stack up on each other without being able to land a hit (especially with forcefields). Of course this case only applies if your opponent doesn't overmake immortals, doesn't go for colossi and spot your expo with his obs to be able to realise that there is a timing window he can hit.
|
Dudes, you realize that he said that you only attack with 1 Dt and the 2 others form an archon.
If the dt does 0 damage its only 125-125 lost...
If you have Charlot vs Blink of 1 base, charlot usually win because of low stalker count.
immortal based push will have no advantage since all of his army isnt armored...
Thx for ur post Cecil
|
On November 10 2011 14:15 Xenorawks wrote:
Will this die to just a normal non-colossi 3 gate robo timing attack with 1(or 2) immortal? If your opponent has 1 immortal 1-2 obs, the cost of it isn't as much as Twilight, Charge, Dark Shrine and a few DTs to harass. So the leftover would be basically your zealots + 1 archon vs his entire army being produced off 3 gates. Let's say he has a very nice composition of zealot and stalkers with 1-2 high energy sentries, if he attacks you right after killing your DTs, wouldn't the engagement go in his favour? He can throw forcefields and cover the sides so your zealots can't surround his stalkers/immortal and 1 archon wouldn't be able to stomp over all the forcefields before getting target fired down. Not to mention if you took an expansion, you will be 4 zealots down compared to your opponent. Your zealot count would be slightly higher than your opponent's, but he will have stalkers and immortals to deal extra damage at the back while your zealots stack up on each other without being able to land a hit (especially with forcefields).
Yeah sounds like you'd probably loose that engagement in that scenario if he hugs a wall + FF. If this were the case, I'd back up my ramp, throw a DT into his base, and try to get him to engage up my ramp. I'd then FF a chunk of his army up the ramp and slam my Archon/Zealot into it, and back away once most of it is killed off. Then re-warp in Zealots in my main as he warps in units to take care of the DT.
You can also attempt base trade. You can also threaten to engage and force down FF + delay his push, and then just engage once his FF count is low, all the while trying to get a DT/Zealots into his main.
On November 10 2011 13:59 Dredrick wrote:
Can you please explain how opening DT doesn't put you behind
You make DT's? I don't know how else to explain this. You get DT tech, then you use it.
On November 10 2011 13:59 Dredrick wrote:
and how DT archons are cost efficient
Okay imagine you have a lot of Chargelots. They have high DPS. The problem with them is they have no splash damage and cannot go through a FF. Archons murder enemy Zealots and have good synergy with Zealots in granting access past Force Fields. This lets engagements trade very efficiently against Stalker/Immortal/Colossus type of units in the mid-game.
|
Dudes, you realize that he said that you only attack with 1 Dt and the 2 others form an archon.
If the dt does 0 damage its only 125-125 lost...
If you have Charlot vs Blink of 1 base, charlot usually win because of low stalker count.
immortal based push will have no advantage since all of his army isnt armored...
Thx for ur post Cecil
By doing a 1 immortal push it doesn't mean blink is needed... Just mass as many gateway units as possible and push with 1 immortal with obs support. It also means the zealot count could be quite high.
Just imagine someone opens 1 gate 1 robo. He feels some sort of 4 gate is coming, he adds 2 more gates to make it 3 gate robo. He makes 1 Obs to scout out your base, 1 Immortal maybe if he is afraid of your 4 gate, and one more spare obs because it is always good to have one. The second he sees your expo/dark shrine, he will want to attack you immediately after clearing/making sure no DTs sneaked into his base. He can even choose to expo behind that attack.
Yeah sounds like you'd probably loose that engagement in that scenario if he hugs a wall + FF. If this were the case, I'd back up my ramp, throw a DT into his base, and try to get him to engage up my ramp. I'd then FF a chunk of his army up the ramp and slam my Archon/Zealot into it, and back away once most of it is killed off. Then re-warp in Zealots in my main as he warps in units to take care of the DT.
You can also attempt base trade. You can also threaten to engage and force down FF + delay his push, and then just engage once his FF count is low, all the while trying to get a DT/Zealots into his main.
I guess even if everything doesn't work, it would probably just put both of you on even ground if he forces a cancel on your expo and back off so shouldn't be much of a problem there. On the bright side as you said you can sneak DTs into his base while he pushes out. Just hope he doesn't rushes for DT too haha
On November 10 2011 13:59 Dredrick wrote:
and how DT archons are cost efficient
I think by this he means, DT archons are not as cost efficient compared to HT archons. He would rather have more chargelots instead of saving up that 50 gas per archon since you won't be able to make a lot of them anyway.
|
On November 10 2011 14:45 Xenorawks wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 13:59 Dredrick wrote:
and how DT archons are cost efficient
I think by this he means, DT archons are not as cost efficient compared to HT archons. He would rather have more chargelots instead of saving up that 50 gas per archon since you won't be able to make a lot of them anyway.
Well if you think using HT is more cost efficient, feel free to try it. I think it's kinda dumb to try at the time in the game I had Archon/Charge, especially seeing how many probes a DT can kill (6-8) even if the opponent already has an obs out.
|
I've been doing basically this for about the last 3 months in high diamond/low masters opponents, slowly refining it. What I like to do is basically only get 1 stalker and 1 sentry to be safe from 4 gate, and when my stalker is out drop a forge and TC (ordering depends on how quickly I think he's gonna be attacking) I've also been messing around with a late 17 pylon after cyber, double gas, and gas steal, to force a 4gate. this cannon helps against early pressure much better, the option to drop more cannons if he goes mass all in, but most importantly TO GET +1. charge and +1 can be started in that order, while your dt shrine is building, and you'll have gas for exactly one dt when it finishes. You can also hold any pressure by forcefielding and warping in sentries, maybe adding a second cannon if you think you need it, but if not just power up to 5 gates.
This ends up with charge and +1 finishing at a similar time, so if he's done any form of robo expand, you hit a timing with 2 archons, your 1 deny scouting stalker and sentry, and the rest zealots, which you should be able to get just after +1/charge finishes, with 16 on mins 6 on gas, in my experience this kills any robo expand because robo units suck vs chargelot archon until 2-3 collosus (and this always hits before that), stalkers suck against them cause of lack of armoured, sentries are obviously useless if you're smart with archon positioning and FF crushing, and zealots die really fast because charge tends to surround his and ball them up, which ends with archons RAPING them horribly and graphically, but even if he splits them nicely, +1 archons are still very very cost effective against them. Basically any form of robo expand can be cost effectively dealt with which seemed like the hard counter to dt tech to me, and this timing punishes it hard.
So far I havent found a hard counter to this build, stargate could be tough to deal with although you can just switch to stalkers with upgrades coming quickly if voids and pheonix cant lift archons, maybe some kind of robo dt warp prism past your cannon but I rarely encounter this enough to say. I tend to drop a robo down then expand when +1/charge finishes, with the robo first if I suspect dt sneakiness from him. Essentially I've found this build lets you expand first no matter what, if he expands first the only way he can survive the timing is with cannons in which case you can still be equal to him with a later expo.
dt archons arent as efficient as HT archons, but they are STILL a very cost effective unit vs low collosus numbers, gateways and immortals, cant be lifted by pheonix, but they also give you the option to access DT tech without an extra tech structure which is amazing whereas HT's have no real double functionality early game pvp, non robo builds are incredibly easy to contain or often outright die to dts, and the map control to place pylons everywhere and counter with chargelots if he moves out.
It also transitions very well to an immortal/blink stalker/archon/chargelot mid-late game mix, with good upgrades since you got a headstart on the +1. I feel like this style is very strong and adaptable, and the builds it has the hardest time with is robo for obs only + tech (blink etc) although I feel like these are still quite evenly matched, and it hard counters a lot of common ladder builds (robo expand, 4 gate, 3 gate expand, etc) and also has the added bonus of being uncommon so people react incorrectly a lot of the time and donate free wins.
I have replays of my most recent variation vs mid diamond only, have some older versions vs low-> mid masters, if anyone is interested I can post them up
|
i like doing a similar build, but with +1 armor if i'm attacking early enough... upgrades make such a big difference in pvp
|
Italy12246 Posts
Other than the two gates at the ramp, what gives you trouble when doing this build? Specifically, what do you think is the best way for a player going robo into blink to defend it?
|
for a robo blink build consider it the same as any collosus build- take expos on the far corners of the map and basetrade if he ever leaves his base, harassing round the edges if you can
|
Italy12246 Posts
On November 11 2011 05:00 DrKillface wrote:
for a robo blink build consider it the same as any collosus build- take expos on the far corners of the map and basetrade if he ever leaves his base, harassing round the edges if you can
I'm not sure blink comes up in time for that. The few times i've been up against chargelot-archon, it was barely up in time to hold off his first attack, so there's no way i can have stalkers at the other side of the map ready to start a basetrade. Blink first sure, robo into blink might be iffy.
|
Great guide Cecil! I think it's also worth mentioning that DTs force (and are weakest against) robo tech. Chargelots and archons are quite good against robo tech in the early and mid game. So it's a pretty effective transition. If they opened anything but robo, they can't move out of their base until they get one, and you're free to expand early or do whatever. If they opened robo, they're building immortals and colossus and the chargelot+archon army will roll that with a good engagement and before there's a critical mass of colossus.
|
I've updated the OP! Here is the changelog:
Revision [ 2 ]
Changelog (oldest to newest descending):
> Rewrote overview
> Made large changes to Mid Game Section
> Clarified Late Game Section
> Post your replays of this style and I'll include them in OP!
On November 11 2011 04:54 Teoita wrote:
Other than the two gates at the ramp, what gives you trouble when doing this build? Specifically, what do you think is the best way for a player going robo into blink to defend it?
I think someone with Blink + Robo can easily defend on their ramp if they sit there army near the top of their ramp. Then the surface area of the Zealots + Archon is next to nothing until you start Blinking back, and by then the Charge/Archon army would have taken a lot of damage. Add in a Sentry for the defender and it gets really ugly for the offender.
On November 11 2011 05:07 GomJabbar wrote:
Great guide Cecil! I think it's also worth mentioning that DTs force (and are weakest against) robo tech. Chargelots and archons are quite good against robo tech in the early and mid game. So it's a pretty effective transition. If they opened anything but robo, they can't move out of their base until they get one, and you're free to expand early or do whatever. If they opened robo, they're building immortals and colossus and the chargelot+archon army will roll that with a good engagement and before there's a critical mass of colossus.
Very good points! Although if you do manage to contain a player onto one base and expand, you need to have more tech than simply just Chargelots and Archons. A good number of Blink Stalkers + Chargelots and Archons is extremely strong, as once the engagement occurs there's nothing to stop your Stalkers from picking the Colossus off.
|
I'm not sold about 3stalker opening into DT. Cecil, when I see an opponents 3stalker build, I know that it's most likely heading down a 2gas oriented build. Doesn't this mean that if opponent does 3stalker opener, that there's a good chance they will have robo? Also, if I'm going 3stalker opener, doesn't my opponent know I have 2 gases and will tech themselves? An observer doesn't win the game, but it makes the opponent able to do a lot in reaction to the DT I've invested in.
Can you compare the value of opening 3stalker fake 4 gate into DT versus fake 1z1s 4gate into DT?
|
On November 11 2011 05:19 tehemperorer wrote:
I'm not sold about 3stalker opening into DT. Cecil, when I see an opponents 3stalker build, I know that it's most likely heading down a 2gas oriented build. Doesn't this mean that if opponent does 3stalker opener, that there's a good chance they will have robo? Also, if I'm going 3stalker opener, doesn't my opponent know I have 2 gases and will tech themselves? An observer doesn't win the game, but it makes the opponent able to do a lot in reaction to the DT I've invested in.
Can you compare the value of opening 3stalker fake 4 gate into DT versus fake 1z1s 4gate into DT?
If the opponent is likely to go for a Robotics facility, then you should still try to get a DT up the ramp. Perhaps only poke with the DT to see if units fire back or not. The chances of you getting 5 probes kills with a DT at that time in the game is extremely high, so I recommend trying it!
3 Stalker opening is just a preference to 1z1s opening. I like having the higher army value at that point in the game, and having those 3 Stalkers on the field at that time. I feel more in-control and safe in going for such a fast Dark Shrine.
|
Oo i don't like this strat at all. Chargelot + archons from DT is just so much costs into tech, it's very inefficient. Using an archon to push up the ramp is near useless, sure it crushes forcefields but it's fat itself that it blocks the ramp completely. There is no way you can go up a ramp against a decent person with archons, either you put the archon at the front and they simply have the concave (they have more ranged units for sure) or you put archon somewhere middle and they just ff a few units off.
After spending so much for a DT opening you simply lose to a proper robo player. They get obs and see what's up, bring the obs back and simply expand. You can merge your 250/250 into an archon but archons are really not that special, it's quite easy to stop such a push with some gateway units + a few immortals. Then if you expand at the same time as them you're behind in the robo war.
On huge maps I like dt play occasionally as it takes very long for them to scout you with obs. DT are quite ok against many of the strats that are popular on big maps (phoenix) and you can usually expand more greedily. I don't like opening triple stalker into dt though, it gets gas too late for my liking and doesn't work as well. On huge maps a single fast stalker is usually enough with some zealots to prevent a 4 gate and then you can tech dt super fast. Huge maps also tend to give more room to fight a robo army with a archon army, something that frequently comes up with DT tech.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
