EPT[G] PvP : DT -> Chareglot/Archon - Page 3
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CryMore
United States497 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On November 17 2011 02:44 CryMore wrote: I have a good deal of experience with DT archon busts. The best way to do it is to push the morphing archon through the force field with the zealots. This way the AI will not target the archon and attack your zealots, helping to keep it alive. It's a bit tricky to pull off but very rewarding as it lets the archon close it's distance without taking too much damage. Wow this is an incredibly cool idea, and I'm definitely going to try this out! Thanks for the post! On November 17 2011 02:30 CCalms wrote: "A Chargelot/Archon composition in the mid-game will also auto-win against any Stargate opening. I have a replay that exemplifies this against some GM protoss on I believe Xel'Naga Caverns." omg! I thought we were friends! :p Lol you're not GM! I was talking about a different replay haha xD On November 17 2011 02:32 Tigi wrote: I open with a 3Stalker opening into DT [Into Chargelot Archon] for quite some time in ladder now and i think it's the best opening for DT's, because it a) Allows you to double gas very safely. b) Gives you map controle (proxy Pylons -> I sometimes even even warp in units here if i know my opponent played a low gate into tech style like 1gate robo to make it look like some kind of agressive play like a blink all in, this way , he'll never think about DTs and even if he gets one obs, he is going to chrono a Immo after, so your DTs can do some dmg as his one obs will be on the way to your base) c) Denies scouting (e.g. sacing a probe and see a lot of Zlots) -> Note that it doesn't necesserily matter if he chooses robo tech as long as he doesn't know you're going DTs. [d) Might put you ahead if your opponent doesn't react properly/micros poorly] In general, i feel this style is pretty safe and good and you won't have too many BO looses, most time it looks like it you will realize it was your own small mistakes. Those are all pretty good points on the 3 Stalker opening. | ||
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dbald27
United States49 Posts
1 The early dts are great for autowin vs non robo openings (however 3 gate robo is very common these days) 2 You have an army that will win every fight in the middle of the map until more than 2 colossus are present 3 You cannot push at a players ramp, EVER. Forcefield and chokes are impossible to push through, so your opponent is safe to turtle 4 You can get a faster expansion than your opponent, and deny theirs if they attempt to expand before you 5 In the mid game (2 or more base) it becomes disadvantageous. Basically you are a zerg player fighting colossus with ling roach. Flanks are an absolute NECESSITY due to colossus ability to kite and deal massive damage. 6 A quick dt transition from an opponent will kill you. Scout them to see where gas is going. Get a robo as you expand. 7 Immortals are key to fighting blink stalkers and colossus, get lots of them (4 or more) 8 On three base colossus is crucial, you cant really avoid this. In general chargelot archon immortal is really fun in PvP, but is more difficult, micro intensive, and fragile than colossus. However, it is absolutely as good as colossus if done properly, and potentially is more powerful than robo builds at the highest level. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On November 17 2011 03:37 dbald27 wrote: I used to use this build almost every single pvp. My thoughts on it are as follows (top masters protoss NA) 1 The early dts are great for autowin vs non robo openings (however 3 gate robo is very common these days) 2 You have an army that will win every fight in the middle of the map until more than 2 colossus are present 3 You cannot push at a players ramp, EVER. Forcefield and chokes are impossible to push through, so your opponent is safe to turtle 4 You can get a faster expansion than your opponent, and deny theirs if they attempt to expand before you 5 In the mid game (2 or more base) it becomes disadvantageous. Basically you are a zerg player fighting colossus with ling roach. Flanks are an absolute NECESSITY due to colossus ability to kite and deal massive damage. 6 A quick dt transition from an opponent will kill you. Scout them to see where gas is going. Get a robo as you expand. 7 Immortals are key to fighting blink stalkers and colossus, get lots of them (4 or more) 8 On three base colossus is crucial, you cant really avoid this. In general chargelot archon immortal is really fun in PvP, but is more difficult, micro intensive, and fragile than colossus. However, it is absolutely as good as colossus if done properly, and potentially is more powerful than robo builds at the highest level. I feel these are pretty good points, I want to quote this and put it up in the OP if you don't mind. Added in a new section to the OP called "Useful Notes", updated changelog! | ||
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Complete
United States1864 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On November 17 2011 04:34 Complete wrote: The most common opener I hit these days is robo/blink. If my opponent just goes mass blink stalkers off 1 base, I don't see a good game plan from this opening? You won't be able to break his ramp, and if he ever catches you in the middle of the map he can just blink kite micro all of your units to death. Best case scenario you get lucky damage from his obs being half way to your base, but that's not something you can rely on... Against Blink/Robo you definitely need to engage in an open area. I also like to cut Archons and go for early Immortals off of one base, as Immortal/Chargelot is extremely good vs Blink. | ||
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Doof
United States204 Posts
P.S. Thanks for the work and all your posts! I love your stuff. Keep it up! | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:06 Doof wrote: Hey Cecil. What if the opponent is going for DTs too? Do you grab a forge at any point, or simply rely on your pressure and poking for scouting information and abandon the build if you think he's going DT? P.S. Thanks for the work and all your posts! I love your stuff. Keep it up! I have a replay of some guy going for DT. I got up a forge and +1 attack. This is good if you don't need to attack cross map anytime soon, perhaps if you expand and expect an attack. However if you want to play offensively you'll need an Observer for your army, and thus require a Robitics Facility. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
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Satoros
38 Posts
Thanks for the guide, well done. | ||
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PlacidPanda
United States246 Posts
In summary, abandon autowin strategies combined with straight up strategies because it weakens both of them. Go HT +chargelot because it is way more efficent. | ||
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ZaloMonkada
United States86 Posts
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
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Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
On December 11 2011 05:09 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: I like to do phoenix build PvP, and in one of the games you uploaded you said a guy had a BO loss versus the DT when he went phoenix; do you think that it is possible to go phoenix against this build and not lose (assuming both players execute their builds well of course). I open Phoenixes every PvP (mid-masters), and I think it is. I actually would much rather be the Phoenix player than the Zealot/Archon player. Cecil won the game in his replay, but the Phoenix player made two huge mistakes. He let the DT cause a total of four kills, when a good forcefield would have made that number zero (don't wait for the DT, just chain-FF until the obs is out), and even more importantly he used all his Phoenix energy lifting probes. If you see 4 gates and templar tech on one base, DO NOT lift probes: hunt down his army and lift zealots. Cecil only had 3 stalkers for anti-air, against 5 phoenixes. As long as you go after his low-Stalker army with your phoenixes, I don't think there's a timing where he can kill you. | ||
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DrKillface
Australia106 Posts
On December 11 2011 04:38 PlacidPanda wrote: okay, i used to as well do similar openings but the problem is that the metagame has changed so that now its 3 gate robo 85% of the time. 3 gate robo means at least 1 obs, and if they're smart 2. I understand that whole mentality of "if he doesn't do this i autowin, i like autowin, lets do this strategy" but in my opinion of this is just a dt archon build, do HT tech and honestly storm has not been seen nearly as much as it deserves to be seen. In summary, abandon autowin strategies combined with straight up strategies because it weakens both of them. Go HT +chargelot because it is way more efficent. I dont really agree with this because this puts you at a disadvantage vs any NON robo build by not forcing detection. vs a robo build dts are more than efficient enough because either he made the robo purely for detection, or he's making immortals, a win either way with a zealot archon comp. Maybe vs a build such as obs blink it could be argued, but even then you dont really want more than 2 archons anyway so overall it doesnt make that much of a difference in my opinion. | ||
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SCPlato
United States249 Posts
I like this build, i have actually been caught off guard a few times by the sheer number of chargelots that barrel up the ramp. I have sometimes gotten easy win though if i scout it and throw up some emergency buildings to block the ramp so the zealots cant get a good arc. Good build though, another good post. | ||
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aviator116
United States820 Posts
Also works pretty really well against stargate openings, since at worst, worst, worst you end up in a base race, and more likely than not you kill his voidrays with stalkers/archons. thanks again for the guide! | ||
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TheRealFluid
United States501 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Its a bit easy to scout though, which make contering it quiet easy. Still a build that works in pvp, so good to sum it up somewhere. | ||
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PantsSC2
United States17 Posts
A couple things I've noticed: 1). I sacrifice the first DT 95% of the time, even if I know they have a robo. If you've kept your army relatively hidden, it forces them to stay in their base, as they likely fear more DTs are waiting for them to move out 2). Until 2 base play, there is nothing that really beats this army in a straight up engagement in an open area. This is beautiful as it allows you to deny expansions very safely. 3). I find that this opener is reasonable against Stargate (Phoenix) play. Depending on how much they invest in air, I sometimes feel it's necessary to grab a forge and a cannon or two. If you do this, it's smart to grab +1, Zealots love that upgrade anyways. When you engage, things generally go quite well, as lifting Zealots is horribly cost-inefficient and Archons are massive, of course 4). DTs are actually a dangerous counter to this build. As Cecil said before, you need to make sure you know where their gas is going. I've lost two games so far to DT warp prism drops that I simply didn't expect. You can deal with this though, just make sure you know it's coming 5). Don't straight up engage Colossus, duh 6). Quite frankly, some of this build's effectiveness comes from its rarity. Very few people expect Chargelot/Archon pushes around 9-10min. They usually assume you are DT rushing or Colossus rushing (if they didn't get an obs in your base) Anyways, thanks a ton for this build. It definitely crushes ladder, and it's a good one to have in your arsenal for the bo3/5s in the Playhem daily or any other tournament setting. | ||
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