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Finally getting the kinks worked out of this build, I posted about it in another pvp thread about it + uploaded a replay. I'll work on getting more replays, I'd really like to actually counter a dt rush with this. Seems like you need to be near psychic and get a sweet scout going.
On December 30 2011 14:39 Drowsy wrote:Here's a game that represents a very typical situation when you open 3stalker into dt chargelot archon vs the most common opening, robo+twilight immortal blink stalker. My opponent was 27-14 and top 8 masters, definitely a better player than me and just beat me before with a delayed 4 gate. http://drop.sc/81398 (obv not the real HerO) I think it's a really simple and easy build to execute. When his attack hits his army value is much higher, but my army annihilates him because of how hard chargelots rape blink stalkers. I think the best way to counter this build is to take natural asap, wall it off with buildings (shuts down any possibility of a chargelot archon player attacking you at him), repeatedly blink stalker harass multiple locations to prevent the archon chargelot player from taking a 3rd while you turtle, 2 robo colossi relying on the fact that colossi become much stronger than archons in the late game when they hit critical mass. Also another note: I initially tried this build using a templar archives thinking that the faster archons and lower mineral cost of hts might make for a stronger and earlier 1 archon+charge push. While it plays out well vs a robo opening, you will get crushed every time vs phoenix+gateway units builds. The dark shrine at minimum forces a 200/175 investment on the phoenix opener's part and that reduces his unit count enough to give you the edge you need against his army. Without the dark shrine, he'll have enough units to beat your 1 archon, 3 stalker, 1 sentry+chargelot force. Another thing I love about this is that you're going to be ahead on upgrades in 99% of your games, and when pvps go to 4 base stalemates with similar army compositions upgrades are usually the deciding factor.
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Finally found something that just totally hardcounters this and shuts it down early mid game when charge+archon is supposed to have its window. Immortal+voidray will completely destroy this composition early on. I had a guy open phoenix+robo on me, then immediately stop phoenixes and start vr+immortal when he saw I was building zealots+archons. Archons aren't very effective against voids because they're massive and voids so much longer range. If he goes for any type of phoenix opening you pretty much have to bust him as soon as charge and the first archon finish.
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On January 26 2012 10:25 Drowsy wrote:
Finally found something that just totally hardcounters this and shuts it down early mid game when charge+archon is supposed to have its window. Immortal+voidray will completely destroy this composition early on. I had a guy open phoenix+robo on me, then immediately stop phoenixes and start vr+immortal when he saw I was building zealots+archons. Archons aren't very effective against voids because they're massive and voids so much longer range. If he goes for any type of phoenix opening you pretty much have to bust him as soon as charge and the first archon finish.
replay?! sounds interesting
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 26 2012 10:25 Drowsy wrote:
Finally found something that just totally hardcounters this and shuts it down early mid game when charge+archon is supposed to have its window. Immortal+voidray will completely destroy this composition early on. I had a guy open phoenix+robo on me, then immediately stop phoenixes and start vr+immortal when he saw I was building zealots+archons. Archons aren't very effective against voids because they're massive and voids so much longer range. If he goes for any type of phoenix opening you pretty much have to bust him as soon as charge and the first archon finish.
So the void(s) on the archon(s). I don't see how the immortal part is supposed to counter the chargelots though?
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Italy12246 Posts
The replay on Antiga is hilarious haha. 2k lost to 100 after early game...were you smurfing or something?
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I do this build in like half my pvp's, partly because I suck at pvp, and partly because I hate how most pvp's are all about "lol I have more collosi than you I win."
I feel people don't really understand how well chargelots TEAR through stalkers. Seriously it's ridiculous how bad you own stalker/immortal with just chargelots and a couple archons.
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Really envious about all the protoss guides on TL, and especially of the dedicated few who contribute some pretty neat stuff 
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Have you tried going for void rays instead of immortals, if so how do you feel that works? Been playing this DT expand style for a good while now (love it <3), but somehow I haven't been able to find out what I like best (immortal vs void).
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I think this build I really bad these days considering how popular sentrys are becoming in PvP.
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On January 27 2012 06:35 -Trippin- wrote:
I think this build I really bad these days considering how popular sentrys are becoming in PvP.
Don't know if you know but Archons kinda smash them.
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On January 27 2012 05:37 Gtoad wrote:
I do this build in like half my pvp's, partly because I suck at pvp, and partly because I hate how most pvp's are all about "lol I have more collosi than you I win."
I feel people don't really understand how well chargelots TEAR through stalkers. Seriously it's ridiculous how bad you own stalker/immortal with just chargelots and a couple archons.
if you open stargate you generally never see any colossus up until the very very lategame
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On January 26 2012 22:51 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 10:25 Drowsy wrote:
Finally found something that just totally hardcounters this and shuts it down early mid game when charge+archon is supposed to have its window. Immortal+voidray will completely destroy this composition early on. I had a guy open phoenix+robo on me, then immediately stop phoenixes and start vr+immortal when he saw I was building zealots+archons. Archons aren't very effective against voids because they're massive and voids so much longer range. If he goes for any type of phoenix opening you pretty much have to bust him as soon as charge and the first archon finish. So the void(s) on the archon(s). I don't see how the immortal part is supposed to counter the chargelots though?
I tried to counter the voids by switching to blink stalkers. I guess theoretically if you had zealot+archon you could just suicide and take out some probes/tech and hope to come back. I think the easier route is just auto-busting allin after the first archon vs phx opening as Cecil's guide suggest. I guess I should rephrase this to say that trying to expand vs a phoenix build has a hard counter of him switching to voids. Nobody ever opens voids off of stargate, now I have to wonder if scouting with the first phoenix, then immediately switching to voids if you scout shrine+zealots would work against a 1 archon bust.
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On January 27 2012 05:16 Teoita wrote:The replay on Antiga is hilarious haha. 2k lost to 100 after early game...were you smurfing or something?
Wow I watched that replay last night and lmao! Never realized. Yeah that was on a smurf, but at the time I think I was top hundred or so of Masters before GM came out.
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This thread is all over the place. Some people say bust the ramp, others say never to do it. I gave this build a go a bunch of times today and had very little success. One person went 1 base colossus with mass zealot with it. Pushed with two colossus and destroyed me. I'm not enjoying it so far.
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 28 2012 19:53 AusBox wrote:
This thread is all over the place. Some people say bust the ramp, others say never to do it. I gave this build a go a bunch of times today and had very little success. One person went 1 base colossus with mass zealot with it. Pushed with two colossus and destroyed me. I'm not enjoying it so far.
If you lose to Colossus with Chargelot Archon and the colossus count is low (4 or less), it's because you had a terrible engagement. You need to fight in the open field and, if possible, try to set up a flank.
Regarding busting the ramp, i personally don't like it. It's a move that relies on your opponent screwing up. If he does make mistakes you destroy him, but otherwise he destroys you. As i said before, chargelot archon shines in the open, and a ramp is the exact opposite of an open space.
That said, setting up a contain at the bottom of someone's ramp and throwing down a nexus is a pretty good followup. Just make sure to not overprobe against a 1base allin.
In general, if on the sc2 strategy forums you don't know whose advice to follow, do what a blue poster suggests. It's pretty much always right, them blues are awesome
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On January 28 2012 20:04 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 19:53 AusBox wrote:
This thread is all over the place. Some people say bust the ramp, others say never to do it. I gave this build a go a bunch of times today and had very little success. One person went 1 base colossus with mass zealot with it. Pushed with two colossus and destroyed me. I'm not enjoying it so far. If you lose to Colossus with Chargelot Archon and the colossus count is low (4 or less), it's because you had a terrible engagement. You need to fight in the open field and, if possible, try to set up a flank. Regarding busting the ramp, i personally don't like it. It's a move that relies on your opponent screwing up. If he does make mistakes you destroy him, but otherwise he destroys you. As i said before, chargelot archon shines in the open, and a ramp is the exact opposite of an open space. That said, setting up a contain at the bottom of someone's ramp and throwing down a nexus is a pretty good followup. Just make sure to not overprobe against a 1base allin. In general, if on the sc2 strategy forums you don't know whose advice to follow, do what a blue poster suggests. It's pretty much always right, them blues are awesome
Thanks mate for the advice, I guess I just need to keep building experience with this build.
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On January 27 2012 07:27 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 06:35 -Trippin- wrote:
I think this build I really bad these days considering how popular sentrys are becoming in PvP. Don't know if you know but Archons kinda smash them.
It's not that simple bro. Ideally, your archons are behind you zealots. If they are in front, they get sniped and they also block your zealots. If they are behind your zealots, the zealots block them and the enemy can split half your army with sentrys. This army composition has a lot of problems in PvP.
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On January 28 2012 22:04 -Trippin- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 07:27 CecilSunkure wrote:On January 27 2012 06:35 -Trippin- wrote:
I think this build I really bad these days considering how popular sentrys are becoming in PvP. Don't know if you know but Archons kinda smash them. It's not that simple bro. Ideally, your archons are behind you zealots. If they are in front, they get sniped and they also block your zealots. If they are behind your zealots, the zealots block them and the enemy can split half your army with sentrys. This army composition has a lot of problems in PvP.
Those problems are solved with micro and picking your engagements.
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On January 29 2012 06:41 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 22:04 -Trippin- wrote:On January 27 2012 07:27 CecilSunkure wrote:On January 27 2012 06:35 -Trippin- wrote:
I think this build I really bad these days considering how popular sentrys are becoming in PvP. Don't know if you know but Archons kinda smash them. It's not that simple bro. Ideally, your archons are behind you zealots. If they are in front, they get sniped and they also block your zealots. If they are behind your zealots, the zealots block them and the enemy can split half your army with sentrys. This army composition has a lot of problems in PvP. Those problems are solved with micro and picking your engagements.
You can say the same for the other player as well. Only difference is that your options for as to wher to engage are much more limited than his.
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EPT
