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On November 11 2011 05:54 Markwerf wrote:
Oo i don't like this strat at all. Chargelot + archons from DT is just so much costs into tech, it's very inefficient. Using an archon to push up the ramp is near useless, sure it crushes forcefields but it's fat itself that it blocks the ramp completely. There is no way you can go up a ramp against a decent person with archons, either you put the archon at the front and they simply have the concave (they have more ranged units for sure) or you put archon somewhere middle and they just ff a few units off.
I never said it was easy, and I did say it's a risk if you know they have Sentries. Also the point isn't even to bust ramps with Archons. So basically, I agree to an extent - it isn't as easy to get off those FFs as you make it out to be.
On November 11 2011 05:54 Markwerf wrote:
After spending so much for a DT opening you simply lose to a proper robo player. They get obs and see what's up, bring the obs back and simply expand.
It's not really that simple. In the replays you see that every player that sent an obs across the map got a nice DT in their main. You can even do this if the Robo player queues two Observers up. A robo player really has to wait for 2 obs to leave their base, and by that time comes around the DT player will have at least 1 Archon, probably 2, and a group of Chargelots. Now the Chargelot player has a contain and a faster expansion opportunity.
On November 11 2011 05:54 Markwerf wrote:
You can merge your 250/250 into an archon but archons are really not that special, it's quite easy to stop such a push with some gateway units + a few immortals.
Well like I said, the point isn't to bust ramps at all. I just said it's very possible to do if you get a really fast first Archon + Charge. It's just a timing in which your army value spikes from slow Zealots, into Chargelots + an Archon, and it's possible to take advantage of such a spike and overcome your opponent. You're also undervaluing Archons quite a bit. Archons murder Zealots, and Zealots have high DPS. If my Archons kill your Zealots before my Zealots die, then my Zealot line gets to slam into the rest of your units and deal high DPS.
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[QOUTE]
Well like I said, the point isn't to bust ramps at all. I just said it's very possible to do if you get a really fast first Archon + Charge. It's just a timing in which your army value spikes from slow Zealots, into Chargelots + an Archon, and it's possible to take advantage of such a spike and overcome your opponent. You're also undervaluing Archons quite a bit. Archons murder Zealots, and Zealots have high DPS. If my Archons kill your Zealots before my Zealots die, then my Zealot line gets to slam into the rest of your units and deal high DPS.[/QUOTE]
Archons aren't that bad but DT made archons are. 250/250 is so incredibly much, 5 zealots beat an archon really.
I don't see what stops a robo player or robo blink player from simply expanding and defending. If they expand you do a chargelot archon push?? That isn't that hard to stop really with just mass zealot especially if you simcity the expansion a little bit. Charge is just massively overcosted and if they go zealot heavy it doesn't do that much.
I just don't see DT play viable at all on small maps, ie maps where the distance for the observer from his base to your base isn't too long. A standard robo opening with 1 sentry simply scouts your DT opening, gets an extra obs, and holds the ramp with ff if neccesary to buy time. Then he simply expo's with some immortal/zealot mix.
The viability of DT entirely hings upon that time it takes for obs to scout imo.
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I played against this once I thought it was imba. T.T
How do you defend a four-gate if they decide to?
You have to kill the probe with your 3 stalkers?
Is this more a reactive build?
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I have tried around a lot on the ladder with zealot archon (mid masters) and i came to the conclusion that on most maps (nearly all) its impossible to be agressive as the protoss can just abuse the terrain and the fact that there's a ramp/ nat choke that even with FF chargelots running in front and then getting forcfeild and using buildings as a semi wall off can really cause this build to be weak. Then all the protoss needs to do his establish a third and just macro up the colossus and keep up with the upgrades and push with a large number of colosus 5+ and the zealots melt leaving archons to be mopped up
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I've used a similar opening a lot before, fake 4 gate into DT's rapidly into Chargelot-Archon. Dealing with quick DT's can be tough. I ended up adding in a Forge and a Cannon to prevent this. I think this is an important piece of the build to make it safe.
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Canada13430 Posts
I did something similar to this today actually remembering your thread. Now to be fair I am trying to learn how to do robo twilight variations and I'm trying to think a little more broadly about the game and react differently to what I scout in an attempt to improve myself.
Ill post the replay I won because I made DTs and they did too much damage to my opponents economy and he felt it wasn't worth it to keep playing.
http://drop.sc/56649
What i did was open 3 gate robo and when I saw he was already started collossus tech and was chronoing probes I decided I would have time to expand since he was going for a macro collossus build and to make chargelot archon. I decided to make DTs for archons to begin with since as you said: even if they open robo one DT will still do damage to a mineral line. I decided to incorporate a warp prism since I already had the robo and DTs are more gas intensive than mineral intensive. I dropped 2 dts and killed a lot of probes I also warped in 2 zealots to distract him from hopefully bringing an obs right away. Which he didnt so I killled a good number of workers and won right there.
Even though I didn't exactly do your build I think its important to take away from this the fact that 3 gate robo -> Twilight as an opening/game plan is very good at transitioning by scouting his build and exploiting positions such as close air with the DT tech while still allowing you to get charge/archon and doing economic damage 
Thanks for the added understanding from reading your guide Cecil! :D
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I got a couple more replays to share. I played a couple games with a friend yesterday. First replay shows a build order loss with a Phoenix opening. Second game shows a missed timing (waiting for 2 Archons) for an allin attack, with a far proxy pylon.
http://drop.sc/57821
http://drop.sc/57823
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I'm not the biggest fan of this. Blink stalkers deal pretty well with chareglots, and combined with their harass potential I feel like robo blink has the edge over this build. Also the chargelot archon bust can be denied a little too easily by simply walling imo, I feel like it's only good to punish greedy players who rely on ff to defend their fe. I personally prefer to open robo tc, and if I see a fe I go charge instead of blink, and do the archon chargelot attack you described.
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On November 12 2011 04:45 Arcanefrost wrote:
I'm not the biggest fan of this. Blink stalkers deal pretty well with chareglots, and combined with their harass potential I feel like robo blink has the edge over this build. Also the chargelot archon bust can be denied a little too easily by simply walling imo, I feel like it's only good to punish greedy players who rely on ff to defend their fe. I personally prefer to open robo tc, and if I see a fe I go charge instead of blink, and do the archon chargelot attack you described.
Blink Robo beats basically everything if played super well though.
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I believe it is a fairly great build taking advantage from my laddering lately. The reason I back it up is the frequency in wich players are relying more in Stargate openers in my level of play (Diamond League), and, obviously, Twilight Council openers hard counters it.
I guess it's also a solid early game opener by using the 3 Stalker Rush as a basical form of developping your econ in safe ways to achieve the Dark Templar harass followed up by the adequate expansion timing, or, potencially, a big deadly blow on your enemy.
One again I will end up reading another Cecil's Guide and thank him for his dedication and hard work providing this fundamental information about the Protoss flexibility in the game.
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Canada13430 Posts
On November 12 2011 05:53 Dredrick wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 04:45 Arcanefrost wrote:
I'm not the biggest fan of this. Blink stalkers deal pretty well with chareglots, and combined with their harass potential I feel like robo blink has the edge over this build. Also the chargelot archon bust can be denied a little too easily by simply walling imo, I feel like it's only good to punish greedy players who rely on ff to defend their fe. I personally prefer to open robo tc, and if I see a fe I go charge instead of blink, and do the archon chargelot attack you described. Blink Robo beats basically everything if played super well though.
Blink robo is just really smart and verstile. You get an obs to scout and a twilight council at a timing where you can't be punished for teching in PvP whereas expanding at the same time can be punished more easily. (note yes i know you can be punished but tech vs expo the tech is the safer route at the same time in PvP).
The nice thing is based on what the obs scouts you can choose blink vs. Charge as the first upgrade or you can expo instead of teching twilight (if you see a one base collossus play for example).
I feel rushing this DT opening isn't the greatest thing in the world but if played right with proper early game scouting you can definitely get a lot of wins.
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Italy12248 Posts
On November 12 2011 06:18 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 05:53 Dredrick wrote:On November 12 2011 04:45 Arcanefrost wrote:
I'm not the biggest fan of this. Blink stalkers deal pretty well with chareglots, and combined with their harass potential I feel like robo blink has the edge over this build. Also the chargelot archon bust can be denied a little too easily by simply walling imo, I feel like it's only good to punish greedy players who rely on ff to defend their fe. I personally prefer to open robo tc, and if I see a fe I go charge instead of blink, and do the archon chargelot attack you described. Blink Robo beats basically everything if played super well though. Blink robo is just really smart and verstile. You get an obs to scout and a twilight council at a timing where you can't be punished for teching in PvP whereas expanding at the same time can be punished more easily. (note yes i know you can be punished but tech vs expo the tech is the safer route at the same time in PvP). The nice thing is based on what the obs scouts you can choose blink vs. Charge as the first upgrade or you can expo instead of teching twilight (if you see a one base collossus play for example). I feel rushing this DT opening isn't the greatest thing in the world but if played right with proper early game scouting you can definitely get a lot of wins.
In which situation would you tech to charge? I have always gone blink first to harass while securing an expo; i also find blink stalkers with a few immortals and 1-2 sentries extremely good to punish a fast expansion.
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On November 12 2011 04:45 Arcanefrost wrote:
I'm not the biggest fan of this. Blink stalkers deal pretty well with chareglots, and combined with their harass potential I feel like robo blink has the edge over this build. Also the chargelot archon bust can be denied a little too easily by simply walling imo, I feel like it's only good to punish greedy players who rely on ff to defend their fe. I personally prefer to open robo tc, and if I see a fe I go charge instead of blink, and do the archon chargelot attack you described.
I feel adding on a robo + expansion, and getting Immortal/Archon/Chargelot is extremely good against Stalker/Robo. The real weakness of this style is I think playing very aggressive against sim city + balled up ranged units in the mid-game.
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Below is a replay of me trying this build for the first time. My opponent goes 3 (?) gate robo defensive and get an expo up once he has a few immortals. I lost two DTs doing nothing due to a circumspect obs at home, so I decided to go all-in with chargelot and archon. I won eventually, even with a smaller army. This is to show how strong this composition is, especially if your opponent sticks with the traditional immortal / stalker heavy.
My question is, against robo expand like this, what to do if I lose the one dt I sent into his mineral line without doing anything? Is going all in the only option? Had he played more carefully (dont tech to colo too soon), he would have won though....
(Low master) http://drop.sc/58023
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On November 12 2011 16:52 Quochobao wrote:Below is a replay of me trying this build for the first time. My opponent goes 3 (?) gate robo defensive and get an expo up once he has a few immortals. I lost two DTs doing nothing due to a circumspect obs at home, so I decided to go all-in with chargelot and archon. I won eventually, even with a smaller army. This is to show how strong this composition is, especially if your opponent sticks with the traditional immortal / stalker heavy. My question is, against robo expand like this, what to do if I lose the one dt I sent into his mineral line without doing anything? Is going all in the only option? Had he played more carefully (dont tech to colo too soon), he would have won though.... (Low master) http://drop.sc/58023
Cool thanks for the replay sharing! I'll stick it in the OP. You should have definitely gotten charge a whole lot faster, however! While the Shrine is constructing is good. This way you can cut those two Sentries you got and just attack your enemy with Chargelots instead of using Sentries to delay for Charge. Then you can invest that 200 vespene into DT.
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Yesterday i started a pvp match only five minutes into the game my parents tell me where gonna leave in another 5. I opened standard with my 2gate robo. I then get one obs and kill his after laying my twilight council. at this point he thinks im going robo blink so he gets another obs but i kill that one as well. Instead of pumping another obs he starts getting mass immortals. as he pushes across the map i throw down a nexus to stall him until my dts warp in. Once that happens my chargelot dt gets a surround and kill half of his army. at that point he relizes i have dts so i just morph then and proceed to rofl stomp his base.
i will see if i can upload the replay.
its probably not the most efficient way to get dts but 2gate robo hardcounters 4gate and when probes run from ur archon its worse than hellions in ur mineral line.
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As your last pylon is killed start warping things in so they are cancelled,
i dont understand what you are saying, and im sure many other people dont also. sorry to nit-pick, but this is where i couldnt follow the guide. the rest of it looks good, im working on trying it and i will edit it with my comments
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On November 17 2011 01:54 blacktar wrote:
As your last pylon is killed start warping things in so they are cancelled,
i dont understand what you are saying, and im sure many other people dont also. sorry to nit-pick, but this is where i couldnt follow the guide. the rest of it looks good, im working on trying it and i will edit it with my comments
He means warp in units at your opponents base, but time them so that they will start warping in right as the pylon is about to die, causing them to not finish and saving you the resources, while convincing the other player you were trying to all in him.
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"A Chargelot/Archon composition in the mid-game will also auto-win against any Stargate opening. I have a replay that exemplifies this against some GM protoss on I believe Xel'Naga Caverns."
omg! I thought we were friends! :p
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I open with a 3Stalker opening into DT [Into Chargelot Archon] for quite some time in ladder now and i think it's the best opening for DT's, because it
a) Allows you to double gas very safely.
b) Gives you map controle (proxy Pylons -> I sometimes even even warp in units here if i know my opponent played a low gate into tech style like 1gate robo to make it look like some kind of agressive play like a blink all in, this way , he'll never think about DTs and even if he gets one obs, he is going to chrono a Immo after, so your DTs can do some dmg as his one obs will be on the way to your base)
c) Denies scouting (e.g. sacing a probe and see a lot of Zlots)
-> Note that it doesn't necesserily matter if he chooses robo tech as long as he doesn't know you're going DTs.
[d) Might put you ahead if your opponent doesn't react properly/micros poorly]
In general, i feel this style is pretty safe and good and you won't have too many BO looses, most time it looks like it you will realize it was your own small mistakes.
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EPT
