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[G] PvP : DT -> Chareglot/Archon
Revision [ 3 ]
Changelog (oldest to newest descending):
> Rewrote overview
> Made large changes to Mid Game Section
> Clarified Late Game Section
> [ NEW ] Added in Useful Notes section
Overview
It's been a while since I last released a guide! I'm so sorry, huge lack of free time in college >.< I want to post up something I was pretty passionate about trying about a month ago, and since then I just haven't had any time to work on it further. So before it gets lost, I'd like to share this idea with the community in hopes people can try out some interesting PvP strategies based off of this post.
I stole the idea for this type of play from iSTime one day on ladder. So I meet him on ladder and start asking about MLG, then realize I had gotten an Assimilator before my Gateway, or something stupid like that. Long story short, he killed me with a single really fast Archon (from DT tech), and a slew of chargelots!
And so I stole the idea. DT into Chargelot Archon. I've played this style against some of the highest NA players (GoSuGatored, iSMentalist, various GM Protoss) and it seems a solid and different way to play. Here's a good point as pointed out by GomJabbar:
GomJabbar wrote:
DTs force (and are weakest against) robo tech. Chargelots and archons are quite good against robo tech in the early and mid game. So it's a pretty effective transition.
By getting Dark Templar onto the field, you force down detection. If your opponent has none, you simply win. By playing with this style you'll simply beat every player that skips detection. The nice thing about forcing down detection is that cannons can't move, and so your opponent needs a Robotics Facility if they plan to take their Natural, or leave their base at all. A Roboics Facility and an Observer costs 175 Vespene. A player with a Robo really needs two Observers however in order to move out of their base (detection in base and on army), raising the total cost in vespene to 250 Vespene for detection alone. This is the cost of your Dark Shrine!
If a player already planned on getting a Robotics Facility, then they'll like construct units that attack from their Robo. This means you now have an army advantage in the mid-game due to Chargelot/Archon's ability to trade very cost-efficiently (with proper engagements), and can take a faster expansion than your opponent.
Choose your Opening
As I do with most of my threads lately, I include a Choose your Opening section. The same goes for this style, and since this is a style rather than set in stone instructions, it can be done in many different ways. I've done 1 Gate FE, 2 Gate 3 Stalker -> FE, 3 Stalker -> 1 base, etc.
I recommend going with a 3 Stalker opening, as it's just an extremely solid mid-game opening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ79QLD-ZEI&feature=channel_video_title
Mid-Game
I define mid-game as the portion of time after the 6 minute mark when any 4 Gate attempt is either tried or feigned. As this time passes, it is best for you to be faking a 4 Gate if you can. Place a couple Pylons at your enemy's ramp, and run your triple Stalkers over for early game support. As your last pylon is killed start warping things in so they are cancelled, then immediately place your Dark Shrine. Your opponent isn't going to attack you at this point, unless you let them realize something is off or they are just plain bad.
Take this time to get out your DT tech. This is also the time to be researching Charge (while Dark Shrine is constructing), and making a lot of Zealots. Keep your early game Stalkers out on the field and active, as to deny towers/kill wandering probes. You should aim for having Charge finish shortly after DT tech is finished. Once DT tech is finished you should be able to afford a couple DT. You should more than likely try to get one in your opponent's mineral line. Try to lure the enemy obs away and sneak it in. The rest of your DT you warp in should be immediately made into Archons.
Once your first Archon is constructed you can try to bust your opponent's ramp. The best thing to stop this timing attack is just a Pylon + 2 Gateways on your opponents ramp. If these buildings are there, you should just back down and expand.
If he has a Robotics facility, then Immortals are going to suck, and the same goes for Colossus (only have one at this point in time). There's a fair chance that if you bust the ramp cleanly you'll kill your opponent at this point in a very one-sided battle (you need a proxy pylon to reinforce!). Be aware however that this is indeed a risk if the opponent does have Sentries, as it can be really difficult to get an Archon to run over a FF when Chargelots are swarming around.
Often times on close positions mid game, the opponent will go for a 1 base Colossus allin. Just be sure to engage down the ramp and away from any mineral lines, and you should be able to come out on top due to cost-efficiency. I have a replay that exemplifies this wonderfully, where I was down from the early game about 700 resources, and still won a battle due to a smart DT in a mineral line and proper engagement.
A Chargelot/Archon composition in the mid-game will also auto-win against any Stargate opening. I have a replay that exemplifies this against some GM protoss on I believe Xel'Naga Caverns.
I almost every game will transition into an expansion + Blink followed by a Robotics Facility. You can usually take a very fast expansion after the first Archon due to an ability to win battles with cost-efficiency in an open engagement.
Nexus Timing
When exactly do you expand? You can place your Nexus in trade of 4 Zealots at any point in time. This can be when your Dark Shrine is constructing and your Stalkers are mid-field. I do this pretty often, though you have to know if your opponent is likely to allin or not (an allin hitting before charge/DT will likely kill you). Times when you can do this are when you are ahead, had a very convincing fake 4 Gate, your fake 4 Gate actually set your opponent's build off and he made mistakes, your opponent simply doesn't move until he has an Observer out (which means your first DT should wreak havoc!).
Often times I place my Nexus after I realize I can't bust the ramp and kill my opponent. It's usually pretty clear as to whether or not I can bust up the ramp. If he has his army on the top of the ramp and has a few Sentries, you probably can't kill him unless you have a very early and well timed first Archon + Charge. If he skipped the Sentries and is rushing for Colo, or something else, you can probably win with a timing attack.
So to reiterate, you can place your Nexus after your first Archon in trade for 4 Zealots. Don't do this if you see an allin from your opponent billowing across the map (think 2 Colossus or some sort of Immortal allin).
Weak Spots
There is definitely a weak spot in this style, and that is the time before Charge finishes. If you are playing a really bad player, the chances of him arbitrarily attacking you are higher than normal. So take this into consideration! Against a more keen opponent you can be active with your early game Stalkers, and have a very good chance that your opponent won't know what's going on with your Zealot stockpile until it's all too late.
Trying to bust the ramp at different times with Archons has lead to quite a few losses on my end. You can definitely do it, especially in lower leagues, but it's really hard to kill a player busting up their ramp unless you have a good amount of experience doing so, or do it really well. You have to have your Archon bust the FF's, you have to spread your Zealots against Colossi splash, you have to prevent your opponent from abusing your Zealots' short range. Just know that it's much easier to wait for your opponent to move down their ramp and engage mid-map, than to aggressively walk up their ramp.
Later Composition
Since you should have a faster expansion than your opponent, you should be able to easily get a good composition for late game. I prefer Blink, Chargelot, Archon + Storm. I also recommend just going with Chargelot Archon + Colossus, as it's much easier to manage. I believe I have one replay where I just went with lots of Chargelots, a few Archons, skipped Blink and got a couple Immortals instead. Immortal + Blink + Charge + Archons are just a proven strong composition on Xel'Naga Caverns, and as such I play that way on such a map and others like it.
To make it simple, late game you really just need to be sure you don't stick to only Chargelot/Archon as a crutch, or else you'll lose to a 2 base turtle on Colossus tech.
Useful Notes
On November 17 2011 03:37 dbald27 wrote:
I used to use this build almost every single pvp. My thoughts on it are as follows (top masters protoss NA)
1 The early dts are great for autowin vs non robo openings (however 3 gate robo is very common these days)
2 You have an army that will win every fight in the middle of the map until more than 2 colossus are present
3 You cannot push at a players ramp, EVER. Forcefield and chokes are impossible to push through, so your opponent is safe to turtle
4 You can get a faster expansion than your opponent, and deny theirs if they attempt to expand before you
5 In the mid game (2 or more base) it becomes disadvantageous. Basically you are a zerg player fighting colossus with ling roach. Flanks are an absolute NECESSITY due to colossus ability to kite and deal massive damage.
6 A quick dt transition from an opponent will kill you. Scout them to see where gas is going. Get a robo as you expand.
7 Immortals are key to fighting blink stalkers and colossus, get lots of them (4 or more)
8 On three base colossus is crucial, you cant really avoid this.
In general chargelot archon immortal is really fun in PvP, but is more difficult, micro intensive, and fragile than colossus. However, it is absolutely as good as colossus if done properly, and potentially is more powerful than robo builds at the highest level.
On November 17 2011 02:44 CryMore wrote:
I have a good deal of experience with DT archon busts. The best way to do it is to push the morphing archon through the force field with the zealots. This way the AI will not target the archon and attack your zealots, helping to keep it alive. It's a bit tricky to pull off but very rewarding as it lets the archon close it's distance without taking too much damage.
Replays
I made a small replay pack a while ago and never posted it up. I wanted to get a better collection of replays going, but just never had the time to play more. As such I feel it's time to release this PvP style, as an entire new patch has come around.
- http://drop.sc/packs/316
- Game by: Quochobao
- http://drop.sc/77408 - Ladder match!
- http://drop.sc/77407 - Ladder match!
- http://drop.sc/77406 - Ladder match!
- http://drop.sc/77409 - Ladder match!
- http://drop.sc/77410 - Ladder match!
- Submit your own replays to this thread! I'm a little tired of seeing guides go up on TL without participants posting up their replays. It would be great to get a list going of different skill levels of people trying this style out in PvP
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I've played against a similar strategy several times on ladder. My main concern for this play would be timing attacks. If your Templar don't do much damage, then your trying to take a 2nd base, while using Chargelots and DT Archons as your main army. This has 3 problems.
1) Your opponent will be ahead since you didn't do much damage beyond forcing another obs, picking off a few workers or a sentry, and forcing some lost mining time.
2) DT Archons are very piss poor for the cost
3) Chargelots vs Zealots = 200/200 almost useless upgrade. In fact sometimes with chargelot mirror, I've regretted having charge on autocast, since if you let your opponent slam in to your army instead, your archons get shots off before his do.
It just seems vulnerable to a good timing, and I have bust DT Chargelot Archon with a 4gate stargate timing multiple times.
Obviously if your DT do good damage, that's a different story, and they can do anything from break even, to win the game outright vs your opponent, so I don't think this strategy is "bad" as much as really risky. If you want to play around with DT's on ladder or as an off-game strat in a best of 3 (which I do on occasion) then yea this looks quite well planed out.
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On November 10 2011 13:46 Dredrick wrote:
I've played against a similar strategy several times on ladder. My main concern for this play would be timing attacks. If your Templar don't do much damage, then your trying to take a 2nd base, while using Chargelots and DT Archons as your main army. This has 3 problems.
1) Your opponent will be ahead since you didn't do much damage beyond forcing another obs, picking off a few workers or a sentry, and forcing some lost mining time.
2) DT Archons are very piss poor for the cost
3) Chargelots vs Zealots = 200/200 almost useless upgrade. In fact sometimes with chargelot mirror, I've regretted having charge on autocast, since if you let your opponent slam in to your army instead, your archons get shots off before his do.
It just seems vulnerable to a good timing, and I have bust DT Chargelot Archon with a 4gate stargate timing multiple times.
Obviously if your DT do good damage, that's a different story, and they can do anything from break even, to win the game outright vs your opponent, so I don't think this strategy is "bad" as much as really risky. If you want to play around with DT's on ladder or as an off-game strat in a best of 3 (which I do on occasion) then yea this looks quite well planed out.
Well it's of course best for your first DT to do damage, but you don't just auto-lose like you're making it out to sound.
I also just plain disagree with point 1, 2, and definitely 3. Charge is only useless if you make it so.
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hmm this looks like a good version of the build I was trying to work out T.T. Well atleast I think I helped put the idea out there.
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I'm not suggesting it's an auto loss, it is a weak spot though.
Can you please explain how opening DT doesn't put you behind, and how DT archons are cost efficient, because I don't understand.
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Will this die to just a normal non-colossi 3 gate robo timing attack with 1(or 2) immortal? If your opponent has 1 immortal 1-2 obs, the cost of it isn't as much as Twilight, Charge, Dark Shrine and a few DTs to harass. So the leftover would be basically your zealots + 1 archon vs his entire army being produced off 3 gates. Let's say he has a very nice composition of zealot and stalkers with 1-2 high energy sentries, if he attacks you right after killing your DTs, wouldn't the engagement go in his favour? He can throw forcefields and cover the sides so your zealots can't surround his stalkers/immortal and 1 archon wouldn't be able to stomp over all the forcefields before getting target fired down. Not to mention if you took an expansion, you will be 4 zealots down compared to your opponent. Your zealot count would be slightly higher than your opponent's, but he will have stalkers and immortals to deal extra damage at the back while your zealots stack up on each other without being able to land a hit (especially with forcefields). Of course this case only applies if your opponent doesn't overmake immortals, doesn't go for colossi and spot your expo with his obs to be able to realise that there is a timing window he can hit.
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Dudes, you realize that he said that you only attack with 1 Dt and the 2 others form an archon.
If the dt does 0 damage its only 125-125 lost...
If you have Charlot vs Blink of 1 base, charlot usually win because of low stalker count.
immortal based push will have no advantage since all of his army isnt armored...
Thx for ur post Cecil
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On November 10 2011 14:15 Xenorawks wrote:
Will this die to just a normal non-colossi 3 gate robo timing attack with 1(or 2) immortal? If your opponent has 1 immortal 1-2 obs, the cost of it isn't as much as Twilight, Charge, Dark Shrine and a few DTs to harass. So the leftover would be basically your zealots + 1 archon vs his entire army being produced off 3 gates. Let's say he has a very nice composition of zealot and stalkers with 1-2 high energy sentries, if he attacks you right after killing your DTs, wouldn't the engagement go in his favour? He can throw forcefields and cover the sides so your zealots can't surround his stalkers/immortal and 1 archon wouldn't be able to stomp over all the forcefields before getting target fired down. Not to mention if you took an expansion, you will be 4 zealots down compared to your opponent. Your zealot count would be slightly higher than your opponent's, but he will have stalkers and immortals to deal extra damage at the back while your zealots stack up on each other without being able to land a hit (especially with forcefields).
Yeah sounds like you'd probably loose that engagement in that scenario if he hugs a wall + FF. If this were the case, I'd back up my ramp, throw a DT into his base, and try to get him to engage up my ramp. I'd then FF a chunk of his army up the ramp and slam my Archon/Zealot into it, and back away once most of it is killed off. Then re-warp in Zealots in my main as he warps in units to take care of the DT.
You can also attempt base trade. You can also threaten to engage and force down FF + delay his push, and then just engage once his FF count is low, all the while trying to get a DT/Zealots into his main.
On November 10 2011 13:59 Dredrick wrote:
Can you please explain how opening DT doesn't put you behind
You make DT's? I don't know how else to explain this. You get DT tech, then you use it.
On November 10 2011 13:59 Dredrick wrote:
and how DT archons are cost efficient
Okay imagine you have a lot of Chargelots. They have high DPS. The problem with them is they have no splash damage and cannot go through a FF. Archons murder enemy Zealots and have good synergy with Zealots in granting access past Force Fields. This lets engagements trade very efficiently against Stalker/Immortal/Colossus type of units in the mid-game.
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Dudes, you realize that he said that you only attack with 1 Dt and the 2 others form an archon.
If the dt does 0 damage its only 125-125 lost...
If you have Charlot vs Blink of 1 base, charlot usually win because of low stalker count.
immortal based push will have no advantage since all of his army isnt armored...
Thx for ur post Cecil
By doing a 1 immortal push it doesn't mean blink is needed... Just mass as many gateway units as possible and push with 1 immortal with obs support. It also means the zealot count could be quite high.
Just imagine someone opens 1 gate 1 robo. He feels some sort of 4 gate is coming, he adds 2 more gates to make it 3 gate robo. He makes 1 Obs to scout out your base, 1 Immortal maybe if he is afraid of your 4 gate, and one more spare obs because it is always good to have one. The second he sees your expo/dark shrine, he will want to attack you immediately after clearing/making sure no DTs sneaked into his base. He can even choose to expo behind that attack.
Yeah sounds like you'd probably loose that engagement in that scenario if he hugs a wall + FF. If this were the case, I'd back up my ramp, throw a DT into his base, and try to get him to engage up my ramp. I'd then FF a chunk of his army up the ramp and slam my Archon/Zealot into it, and back away once most of it is killed off. Then re-warp in Zealots in my main as he warps in units to take care of the DT.
You can also attempt base trade. You can also threaten to engage and force down FF + delay his push, and then just engage once his FF count is low, all the while trying to get a DT/Zealots into his main.
I guess even if everything doesn't work, it would probably just put both of you on even ground if he forces a cancel on your expo and back off so shouldn't be much of a problem there. On the bright side as you said you can sneak DTs into his base while he pushes out. Just hope he doesn't rushes for DT too haha
On November 10 2011 13:59 Dredrick wrote:
and how DT archons are cost efficient
I think by this he means, DT archons are not as cost efficient compared to HT archons. He would rather have more chargelots instead of saving up that 50 gas per archon since you won't be able to make a lot of them anyway.
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On November 10 2011 14:45 Xenorawks wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 13:59 Dredrick wrote:
and how DT archons are cost efficient
I think by this he means, DT archons are not as cost efficient compared to HT archons. He would rather have more chargelots instead of saving up that 50 gas per archon since you won't be able to make a lot of them anyway.
Well if you think using HT is more cost efficient, feel free to try it. I think it's kinda dumb to try at the time in the game I had Archon/Charge, especially seeing how many probes a DT can kill (6-8) even if the opponent already has an obs out.
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I've been doing basically this for about the last 3 months in high diamond/low masters opponents, slowly refining it. What I like to do is basically only get 1 stalker and 1 sentry to be safe from 4 gate, and when my stalker is out drop a forge and TC (ordering depends on how quickly I think he's gonna be attacking) I've also been messing around with a late 17 pylon after cyber, double gas, and gas steal, to force a 4gate. this cannon helps against early pressure much better, the option to drop more cannons if he goes mass all in, but most importantly TO GET +1. charge and +1 can be started in that order, while your dt shrine is building, and you'll have gas for exactly one dt when it finishes. You can also hold any pressure by forcefielding and warping in sentries, maybe adding a second cannon if you think you need it, but if not just power up to 5 gates.
This ends up with charge and +1 finishing at a similar time, so if he's done any form of robo expand, you hit a timing with 2 archons, your 1 deny scouting stalker and sentry, and the rest zealots, which you should be able to get just after +1/charge finishes, with 16 on mins 6 on gas, in my experience this kills any robo expand because robo units suck vs chargelot archon until 2-3 collosus (and this always hits before that), stalkers suck against them cause of lack of armoured, sentries are obviously useless if you're smart with archon positioning and FF crushing, and zealots die really fast because charge tends to surround his and ball them up, which ends with archons RAPING them horribly and graphically, but even if he splits them nicely, +1 archons are still very very cost effective against them. Basically any form of robo expand can be cost effectively dealt with which seemed like the hard counter to dt tech to me, and this timing punishes it hard.
So far I havent found a hard counter to this build, stargate could be tough to deal with although you can just switch to stalkers with upgrades coming quickly if voids and pheonix cant lift archons, maybe some kind of robo dt warp prism past your cannon but I rarely encounter this enough to say. I tend to drop a robo down then expand when +1/charge finishes, with the robo first if I suspect dt sneakiness from him. Essentially I've found this build lets you expand first no matter what, if he expands first the only way he can survive the timing is with cannons in which case you can still be equal to him with a later expo.
dt archons arent as efficient as HT archons, but they are STILL a very cost effective unit vs low collosus numbers, gateways and immortals, cant be lifted by pheonix, but they also give you the option to access DT tech without an extra tech structure which is amazing whereas HT's have no real double functionality early game pvp, non robo builds are incredibly easy to contain or often outright die to dts, and the map control to place pylons everywhere and counter with chargelots if he moves out.
It also transitions very well to an immortal/blink stalker/archon/chargelot mid-late game mix, with good upgrades since you got a headstart on the +1. I feel like this style is very strong and adaptable, and the builds it has the hardest time with is robo for obs only + tech (blink etc) although I feel like these are still quite evenly matched, and it hard counters a lot of common ladder builds (robo expand, 4 gate, 3 gate expand, etc) and also has the added bonus of being uncommon so people react incorrectly a lot of the time and donate free wins.
I have replays of my most recent variation vs mid diamond only, have some older versions vs low-> mid masters, if anyone is interested I can post them up
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i like doing a similar build, but with +1 armor if i'm attacking early enough... upgrades make such a big difference in pvp
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Italy12246 Posts
Other than the two gates at the ramp, what gives you trouble when doing this build? Specifically, what do you think is the best way for a player going robo into blink to defend it?
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for a robo blink build consider it the same as any collosus build- take expos on the far corners of the map and basetrade if he ever leaves his base, harassing round the edges if you can
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 11 2011 05:00 DrKillface wrote:
for a robo blink build consider it the same as any collosus build- take expos on the far corners of the map and basetrade if he ever leaves his base, harassing round the edges if you can
I'm not sure blink comes up in time for that. The few times i've been up against chargelot-archon, it was barely up in time to hold off his first attack, so there's no way i can have stalkers at the other side of the map ready to start a basetrade. Blink first sure, robo into blink might be iffy.
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United States161 Posts
Great guide Cecil! I think it's also worth mentioning that DTs force (and are weakest against) robo tech. Chargelots and archons are quite good against robo tech in the early and mid game. So it's a pretty effective transition. If they opened anything but robo, they can't move out of their base until they get one, and you're free to expand early or do whatever. If they opened robo, they're building immortals and colossus and the chargelot+archon army will roll that with a good engagement and before there's a critical mass of colossus.
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I've updated the OP! Here is the changelog:
Revision [ 2 ]
Changelog (oldest to newest descending):
> Rewrote overview
> Made large changes to Mid Game Section
> Clarified Late Game Section
> Post your replays of this style and I'll include them in OP!
On November 11 2011 04:54 Teoita wrote:
Other than the two gates at the ramp, what gives you trouble when doing this build? Specifically, what do you think is the best way for a player going robo into blink to defend it?
I think someone with Blink + Robo can easily defend on their ramp if they sit there army near the top of their ramp. Then the surface area of the Zealots + Archon is next to nothing until you start Blinking back, and by then the Charge/Archon army would have taken a lot of damage. Add in a Sentry for the defender and it gets really ugly for the offender.
On November 11 2011 05:07 GomJabbar wrote:
Great guide Cecil! I think it's also worth mentioning that DTs force (and are weakest against) robo tech. Chargelots and archons are quite good against robo tech in the early and mid game. So it's a pretty effective transition. If they opened anything but robo, they can't move out of their base until they get one, and you're free to expand early or do whatever. If they opened robo, they're building immortals and colossus and the chargelot+archon army will roll that with a good engagement and before there's a critical mass of colossus.
Very good points! Although if you do manage to contain a player onto one base and expand, you need to have more tech than simply just Chargelots and Archons. A good number of Blink Stalkers + Chargelots and Archons is extremely strong, as once the engagement occurs there's nothing to stop your Stalkers from picking the Colossus off.
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I'm not sold about 3stalker opening into DT. Cecil, when I see an opponents 3stalker build, I know that it's most likely heading down a 2gas oriented build. Doesn't this mean that if opponent does 3stalker opener, that there's a good chance they will have robo? Also, if I'm going 3stalker opener, doesn't my opponent know I have 2 gases and will tech themselves? An observer doesn't win the game, but it makes the opponent able to do a lot in reaction to the DT I've invested in.
Can you compare the value of opening 3stalker fake 4 gate into DT versus fake 1z1s 4gate into DT?
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On November 11 2011 05:19 tehemperorer wrote:
I'm not sold about 3stalker opening into DT. Cecil, when I see an opponents 3stalker build, I know that it's most likely heading down a 2gas oriented build. Doesn't this mean that if opponent does 3stalker opener, that there's a good chance they will have robo? Also, if I'm going 3stalker opener, doesn't my opponent know I have 2 gases and will tech themselves? An observer doesn't win the game, but it makes the opponent able to do a lot in reaction to the DT I've invested in.
Can you compare the value of opening 3stalker fake 4 gate into DT versus fake 1z1s 4gate into DT?
If the opponent is likely to go for a Robotics facility, then you should still try to get a DT up the ramp. Perhaps only poke with the DT to see if units fire back or not. The chances of you getting 5 probes kills with a DT at that time in the game is extremely high, so I recommend trying it!
3 Stalker opening is just a preference to 1z1s opening. I like having the higher army value at that point in the game, and having those 3 Stalkers on the field at that time. I feel more in-control and safe in going for such a fast Dark Shrine.
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Oo i don't like this strat at all. Chargelot + archons from DT is just so much costs into tech, it's very inefficient. Using an archon to push up the ramp is near useless, sure it crushes forcefields but it's fat itself that it blocks the ramp completely. There is no way you can go up a ramp against a decent person with archons, either you put the archon at the front and they simply have the concave (they have more ranged units for sure) or you put archon somewhere middle and they just ff a few units off.
After spending so much for a DT opening you simply lose to a proper robo player. They get obs and see what's up, bring the obs back and simply expand. You can merge your 250/250 into an archon but archons are really not that special, it's quite easy to stop such a push with some gateway units + a few immortals. Then if you expand at the same time as them you're behind in the robo war.
On huge maps I like dt play occasionally as it takes very long for them to scout you with obs. DT are quite ok against many of the strats that are popular on big maps (phoenix) and you can usually expand more greedily. I don't like opening triple stalker into dt though, it gets gas too late for my liking and doesn't work as well. On huge maps a single fast stalker is usually enough with some zealots to prevent a 4 gate and then you can tech dt super fast. Huge maps also tend to give more room to fight a robo army with a archon army, something that frequently comes up with DT tech.
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On November 11 2011 05:54 Markwerf wrote:
Oo i don't like this strat at all. Chargelot + archons from DT is just so much costs into tech, it's very inefficient. Using an archon to push up the ramp is near useless, sure it crushes forcefields but it's fat itself that it blocks the ramp completely. There is no way you can go up a ramp against a decent person with archons, either you put the archon at the front and they simply have the concave (they have more ranged units for sure) or you put archon somewhere middle and they just ff a few units off.
I never said it was easy, and I did say it's a risk if you know they have Sentries. Also the point isn't even to bust ramps with Archons. So basically, I agree to an extent - it isn't as easy to get off those FFs as you make it out to be.
On November 11 2011 05:54 Markwerf wrote:
After spending so much for a DT opening you simply lose to a proper robo player. They get obs and see what's up, bring the obs back and simply expand.
It's not really that simple. In the replays you see that every player that sent an obs across the map got a nice DT in their main. You can even do this if the Robo player queues two Observers up. A robo player really has to wait for 2 obs to leave their base, and by that time comes around the DT player will have at least 1 Archon, probably 2, and a group of Chargelots. Now the Chargelot player has a contain and a faster expansion opportunity.
On November 11 2011 05:54 Markwerf wrote:
You can merge your 250/250 into an archon but archons are really not that special, it's quite easy to stop such a push with some gateway units + a few immortals.
Well like I said, the point isn't to bust ramps at all. I just said it's very possible to do if you get a really fast first Archon + Charge. It's just a timing in which your army value spikes from slow Zealots, into Chargelots + an Archon, and it's possible to take advantage of such a spike and overcome your opponent. You're also undervaluing Archons quite a bit. Archons murder Zealots, and Zealots have high DPS. If my Archons kill your Zealots before my Zealots die, then my Zealot line gets to slam into the rest of your units and deal high DPS.
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[QOUTE]
Well like I said, the point isn't to bust ramps at all. I just said it's very possible to do if you get a really fast first Archon + Charge. It's just a timing in which your army value spikes from slow Zealots, into Chargelots + an Archon, and it's possible to take advantage of such a spike and overcome your opponent. You're also undervaluing Archons quite a bit. Archons murder Zealots, and Zealots have high DPS. If my Archons kill your Zealots before my Zealots die, then my Zealot line gets to slam into the rest of your units and deal high DPS.[/QUOTE]
Archons aren't that bad but DT made archons are. 250/250 is so incredibly much, 5 zealots beat an archon really.
I don't see what stops a robo player or robo blink player from simply expanding and defending. If they expand you do a chargelot archon push?? That isn't that hard to stop really with just mass zealot especially if you simcity the expansion a little bit. Charge is just massively overcosted and if they go zealot heavy it doesn't do that much.
I just don't see DT play viable at all on small maps, ie maps where the distance for the observer from his base to your base isn't too long. A standard robo opening with 1 sentry simply scouts your DT opening, gets an extra obs, and holds the ramp with ff if neccesary to buy time. Then he simply expo's with some immortal/zealot mix.
The viability of DT entirely hings upon that time it takes for obs to scout imo.
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I played against this once I thought it was imba. T.T
How do you defend a four-gate if they decide to?
You have to kill the probe with your 3 stalkers?
Is this more a reactive build?
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I have tried around a lot on the ladder with zealot archon (mid masters) and i came to the conclusion that on most maps (nearly all) its impossible to be agressive as the protoss can just abuse the terrain and the fact that there's a ramp/ nat choke that even with FF chargelots running in front and then getting forcfeild and using buildings as a semi wall off can really cause this build to be weak. Then all the protoss needs to do his establish a third and just macro up the colossus and keep up with the upgrades and push with a large number of colosus 5+ and the zealots melt leaving archons to be mopped up
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I've used a similar opening a lot before, fake 4 gate into DT's rapidly into Chargelot-Archon. Dealing with quick DT's can be tough. I ended up adding in a Forge and a Cannon to prevent this. I think this is an important piece of the build to make it safe.
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Canada13386 Posts
I did something similar to this today actually remembering your thread. Now to be fair I am trying to learn how to do robo twilight variations and I'm trying to think a little more broadly about the game and react differently to what I scout in an attempt to improve myself.
Ill post the replay I won because I made DTs and they did too much damage to my opponents economy and he felt it wasn't worth it to keep playing.
http://drop.sc/56649
What i did was open 3 gate robo and when I saw he was already started collossus tech and was chronoing probes I decided I would have time to expand since he was going for a macro collossus build and to make chargelot archon. I decided to make DTs for archons to begin with since as you said: even if they open robo one DT will still do damage to a mineral line. I decided to incorporate a warp prism since I already had the robo and DTs are more gas intensive than mineral intensive. I dropped 2 dts and killed a lot of probes I also warped in 2 zealots to distract him from hopefully bringing an obs right away. Which he didnt so I killled a good number of workers and won right there.
Even though I didn't exactly do your build I think its important to take away from this the fact that 3 gate robo -> Twilight as an opening/game plan is very good at transitioning by scouting his build and exploiting positions such as close air with the DT tech while still allowing you to get charge/archon and doing economic damage
Thanks for the added understanding from reading your guide Cecil! :D
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I got a couple more replays to share. I played a couple games with a friend yesterday. First replay shows a build order loss with a Phoenix opening. Second game shows a missed timing (waiting for 2 Archons) for an allin attack, with a far proxy pylon.
http://drop.sc/57821
http://drop.sc/57823
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I'm not the biggest fan of this. Blink stalkers deal pretty well with chareglots, and combined with their harass potential I feel like robo blink has the edge over this build. Also the chargelot archon bust can be denied a little too easily by simply walling imo, I feel like it's only good to punish greedy players who rely on ff to defend their fe. I personally prefer to open robo tc, and if I see a fe I go charge instead of blink, and do the archon chargelot attack you described.
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On November 12 2011 04:45 Arcanefrost wrote:
I'm not the biggest fan of this. Blink stalkers deal pretty well with chareglots, and combined with their harass potential I feel like robo blink has the edge over this build. Also the chargelot archon bust can be denied a little too easily by simply walling imo, I feel like it's only good to punish greedy players who rely on ff to defend their fe. I personally prefer to open robo tc, and if I see a fe I go charge instead of blink, and do the archon chargelot attack you described.
Blink Robo beats basically everything if played super well though.
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I believe it is a fairly great build taking advantage from my laddering lately. The reason I back it up is the frequency in wich players are relying more in Stargate openers in my level of play (Diamond League), and, obviously, Twilight Council openers hard counters it.
I guess it's also a solid early game opener by using the 3 Stalker Rush as a basical form of developping your econ in safe ways to achieve the Dark Templar harass followed up by the adequate expansion timing, or, potencially, a big deadly blow on your enemy.
One again I will end up reading another Cecil's Guide and thank him for his dedication and hard work providing this fundamental information about the Protoss flexibility in the game.
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Canada13386 Posts
On November 12 2011 05:53 Dredrick wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 04:45 Arcanefrost wrote:
I'm not the biggest fan of this. Blink stalkers deal pretty well with chareglots, and combined with their harass potential I feel like robo blink has the edge over this build. Also the chargelot archon bust can be denied a little too easily by simply walling imo, I feel like it's only good to punish greedy players who rely on ff to defend their fe. I personally prefer to open robo tc, and if I see a fe I go charge instead of blink, and do the archon chargelot attack you described. Blink Robo beats basically everything if played super well though.
Blink robo is just really smart and verstile. You get an obs to scout and a twilight council at a timing where you can't be punished for teching in PvP whereas expanding at the same time can be punished more easily. (note yes i know you can be punished but tech vs expo the tech is the safer route at the same time in PvP).
The nice thing is based on what the obs scouts you can choose blink vs. Charge as the first upgrade or you can expo instead of teching twilight (if you see a one base collossus play for example).
I feel rushing this DT opening isn't the greatest thing in the world but if played right with proper early game scouting you can definitely get a lot of wins.
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 12 2011 06:18 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 05:53 Dredrick wrote:On November 12 2011 04:45 Arcanefrost wrote:
I'm not the biggest fan of this. Blink stalkers deal pretty well with chareglots, and combined with their harass potential I feel like robo blink has the edge over this build. Also the chargelot archon bust can be denied a little too easily by simply walling imo, I feel like it's only good to punish greedy players who rely on ff to defend their fe. I personally prefer to open robo tc, and if I see a fe I go charge instead of blink, and do the archon chargelot attack you described. Blink Robo beats basically everything if played super well though. Blink robo is just really smart and verstile. You get an obs to scout and a twilight council at a timing where you can't be punished for teching in PvP whereas expanding at the same time can be punished more easily. (note yes i know you can be punished but tech vs expo the tech is the safer route at the same time in PvP). The nice thing is based on what the obs scouts you can choose blink vs. Charge as the first upgrade or you can expo instead of teching twilight (if you see a one base collossus play for example). I feel rushing this DT opening isn't the greatest thing in the world but if played right with proper early game scouting you can definitely get a lot of wins.
In which situation would you tech to charge? I have always gone blink first to harass while securing an expo; i also find blink stalkers with a few immortals and 1-2 sentries extremely good to punish a fast expansion.
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On November 12 2011 04:45 Arcanefrost wrote:
I'm not the biggest fan of this. Blink stalkers deal pretty well with chareglots, and combined with their harass potential I feel like robo blink has the edge over this build. Also the chargelot archon bust can be denied a little too easily by simply walling imo, I feel like it's only good to punish greedy players who rely on ff to defend their fe. I personally prefer to open robo tc, and if I see a fe I go charge instead of blink, and do the archon chargelot attack you described.
I feel adding on a robo + expansion, and getting Immortal/Archon/Chargelot is extremely good against Stalker/Robo. The real weakness of this style is I think playing very aggressive against sim city + balled up ranged units in the mid-game.
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Below is a replay of me trying this build for the first time. My opponent goes 3 (?) gate robo defensive and get an expo up once he has a few immortals. I lost two DTs doing nothing due to a circumspect obs at home, so I decided to go all-in with chargelot and archon. I won eventually, even with a smaller army. This is to show how strong this composition is, especially if your opponent sticks with the traditional immortal / stalker heavy.
My question is, against robo expand like this, what to do if I lose the one dt I sent into his mineral line without doing anything? Is going all in the only option? Had he played more carefully (dont tech to colo too soon), he would have won though....
(Low master) http://drop.sc/58023
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On November 12 2011 16:52 Quochobao wrote:Below is a replay of me trying this build for the first time. My opponent goes 3 (?) gate robo defensive and get an expo up once he has a few immortals. I lost two DTs doing nothing due to a circumspect obs at home, so I decided to go all-in with chargelot and archon. I won eventually, even with a smaller army. This is to show how strong this composition is, especially if your opponent sticks with the traditional immortal / stalker heavy. My question is, against robo expand like this, what to do if I lose the one dt I sent into his mineral line without doing anything? Is going all in the only option? Had he played more carefully (dont tech to colo too soon), he would have won though.... (Low master) http://drop.sc/58023
Cool thanks for the replay sharing! I'll stick it in the OP. You should have definitely gotten charge a whole lot faster, however! While the Shrine is constructing is good. This way you can cut those two Sentries you got and just attack your enemy with Chargelots instead of using Sentries to delay for Charge. Then you can invest that 200 vespene into DT.
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Yesterday i started a pvp match only five minutes into the game my parents tell me where gonna leave in another 5. I opened standard with my 2gate robo. I then get one obs and kill his after laying my twilight council. at this point he thinks im going robo blink so he gets another obs but i kill that one as well. Instead of pumping another obs he starts getting mass immortals. as he pushes across the map i throw down a nexus to stall him until my dts warp in. Once that happens my chargelot dt gets a surround and kill half of his army. at that point he relizes i have dts so i just morph then and proceed to rofl stomp his base.
i will see if i can upload the replay.
its probably not the most efficient way to get dts but 2gate robo hardcounters 4gate and when probes run from ur archon its worse than hellions in ur mineral line.
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As your last pylon is killed start warping things in so they are cancelled,
i dont understand what you are saying, and im sure many other people dont also. sorry to nit-pick, but this is where i couldnt follow the guide. the rest of it looks good, im working on trying it and i will edit it with my comments
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On November 17 2011 01:54 blacktar wrote:
As your last pylon is killed start warping things in so they are cancelled,
i dont understand what you are saying, and im sure many other people dont also. sorry to nit-pick, but this is where i couldnt follow the guide. the rest of it looks good, im working on trying it and i will edit it with my comments
He means warp in units at your opponents base, but time them so that they will start warping in right as the pylon is about to die, causing them to not finish and saving you the resources, while convincing the other player you were trying to all in him.
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"A Chargelot/Archon composition in the mid-game will also auto-win against any Stargate opening. I have a replay that exemplifies this against some GM protoss on I believe Xel'Naga Caverns."
omg! I thought we were friends! :p
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I open with a 3Stalker opening into DT [Into Chargelot Archon] for quite some time in ladder now and i think it's the best opening for DT's, because it
a) Allows you to double gas very safely.
b) Gives you map controle (proxy Pylons -> I sometimes even even warp in units here if i know my opponent played a low gate into tech style like 1gate robo to make it look like some kind of agressive play like a blink all in, this way , he'll never think about DTs and even if he gets one obs, he is going to chrono a Immo after, so your DTs can do some dmg as his one obs will be on the way to your base)
c) Denies scouting (e.g. sacing a probe and see a lot of Zlots)
-> Note that it doesn't necesserily matter if he chooses robo tech as long as he doesn't know you're going DTs.
[d) Might put you ahead if your opponent doesn't react properly/micros poorly]
In general, i feel this style is pretty safe and good and you won't have too many BO looses, most time it looks like it you will realize it was your own small mistakes.
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I have a good deal of experience with DT archon busts. The best way to do it is to push the morphing archon through the force field with the zealots. This way the AI will not target the archon and attack your zealots, helping to keep it alive. It's a bit tricky to pull off but very rewarding as it lets the archon close it's distance without taking too much damage.
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On November 17 2011 02:44 CryMore wrote:
I have a good deal of experience with DT archon busts. The best way to do it is to push the morphing archon through the force field with the zealots. This way the AI will not target the archon and attack your zealots, helping to keep it alive. It's a bit tricky to pull off but very rewarding as it lets the archon close it's distance without taking too much damage.
Wow this is an incredibly cool idea, and I'm definitely going to try this out! Thanks for the post!
On November 17 2011 02:30 CCalms wrote:
"A Chargelot/Archon composition in the mid-game will also auto-win against any Stargate opening. I have a replay that exemplifies this against some GM protoss on I believe Xel'Naga Caverns."
omg! I thought we were friends! :p
Lol you're not GM! I was talking about a different replay haha xD
On November 17 2011 02:32 Tigi wrote:
I open with a 3Stalker opening into DT [Into Chargelot Archon] for quite some time in ladder now and i think it's the best opening for DT's, because it
a) Allows you to double gas very safely.
b) Gives you map controle (proxy Pylons -> I sometimes even even warp in units here if i know my opponent played a low gate into tech style like 1gate robo to make it look like some kind of agressive play like a blink all in, this way , he'll never think about DTs and even if he gets one obs, he is going to chrono a Immo after, so your DTs can do some dmg as his one obs will be on the way to your base)
c) Denies scouting (e.g. sacing a probe and see a lot of Zlots)
-> Note that it doesn't necesserily matter if he chooses robo tech as long as he doesn't know you're going DTs.
[d) Might put you ahead if your opponent doesn't react properly/micros poorly]
In general, i feel this style is pretty safe and good and you won't have too many BO looses, most time it looks like it you will realize it was your own small mistakes.
Those are all pretty good points on the 3 Stalker opening.
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I used to use this build almost every single pvp. My thoughts on it are as follows (top masters protoss NA)
1 The early dts are great for autowin vs non robo openings (however 3 gate robo is very common these days)
2 You have an army that will win every fight in the middle of the map until more than 2 colossus are present
3 You cannot push at a players ramp, EVER. Forcefield and chokes are impossible to push through, so your opponent is safe to turtle
4 You can get a faster expansion than your opponent, and deny theirs if they attempt to expand before you
5 In the mid game (2 or more base) it becomes disadvantageous. Basically you are a zerg player fighting colossus with ling roach. Flanks are an absolute NECESSITY due to colossus ability to kite and deal massive damage.
6 A quick dt transition from an opponent will kill you. Scout them to see where gas is going. Get a robo as you expand.
7 Immortals are key to fighting blink stalkers and colossus, get lots of them (4 or more)
8 On three base colossus is crucial, you cant really avoid this.
In general chargelot archon immortal is really fun in PvP, but is more difficult, micro intensive, and fragile than colossus. However, it is absolutely as good as colossus if done properly, and potentially is more powerful than robo builds at the highest level.
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On November 17 2011 03:37 dbald27 wrote:
I used to use this build almost every single pvp. My thoughts on it are as follows (top masters protoss NA)
1 The early dts are great for autowin vs non robo openings (however 3 gate robo is very common these days)
2 You have an army that will win every fight in the middle of the map until more than 2 colossus are present
3 You cannot push at a players ramp, EVER. Forcefield and chokes are impossible to push through, so your opponent is safe to turtle
4 You can get a faster expansion than your opponent, and deny theirs if they attempt to expand before you
5 In the mid game (2 or more base) it becomes disadvantageous. Basically you are a zerg player fighting colossus with ling roach. Flanks are an absolute NECESSITY due to colossus ability to kite and deal massive damage.
6 A quick dt transition from an opponent will kill you. Scout them to see where gas is going. Get a robo as you expand.
7 Immortals are key to fighting blink stalkers and colossus, get lots of them (4 or more)
8 On three base colossus is crucial, you cant really avoid this.
In general chargelot archon immortal is really fun in PvP, but is more difficult, micro intensive, and fragile than colossus. However, it is absolutely as good as colossus if done properly, and potentially is more powerful than robo builds at the highest level.
I feel these are pretty good points, I want to quote this and put it up in the OP if you don't mind.
Added in a new section to the OP called "Useful Notes", updated changelog!
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The most common opener I hit these days is robo/blink. If my opponent just goes mass blink stalkers off 1 base, I don't see a good game plan from this opening? You won't be able to break his ramp, and if he ever catches you in the middle of the map he can just blink kite micro all of your units to death. Best case scenario you get lucky damage from his obs being half way to your base, but that's not something you can rely on...
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On November 17 2011 04:34 Complete wrote:
The most common opener I hit these days is robo/blink. If my opponent just goes mass blink stalkers off 1 base, I don't see a good game plan from this opening? You won't be able to break his ramp, and if he ever catches you in the middle of the map he can just blink kite micro all of your units to death. Best case scenario you get lucky damage from his obs being half way to your base, but that's not something you can rely on...
Against Blink/Robo you definitely need to engage in an open area. I also like to cut Archons and go for early Immortals off of one base, as Immortal/Chargelot is extremely good vs Blink.
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Hey Cecil. What if the opponent is going for DTs too? Do you grab a forge at any point, or simply rely on your pressure and poking for scouting information and abandon the build if you think he's going DT?
P.S. Thanks for the work and all your posts! I love your stuff. Keep it up!
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On November 17 2011 06:06 Doof wrote:
Hey Cecil. What if the opponent is going for DTs too? Do you grab a forge at any point, or simply rely on your pressure and poking for scouting information and abandon the build if you think he's going DT?
P.S. Thanks for the work and all your posts! I love your stuff. Keep it up!
I have a replay of some guy going for DT. I got up a forge and +1 attack. This is good if you don't need to attack cross map anytime soon, perhaps if you expand and expect an attack. However if you want to play offensively you'll need an Observer for your army, and thus require a Robitics Facility.
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hi i havent seen any replays of this style versus a full on 4 gate rather than say 2 gate into 4 gate. like a proper crisp 4 gate. i dont know how you wouldnt die to that?
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This is definitely a build worth looking at IMO, I will try it for a while and see how it works. It seems like it has a fair amount of potential, and I'm sure a lot of it will come down to figuring out how to deal with some of the weaknesses of the build.
Thanks for the guide, well done.
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okay, i used to as well do similar openings but the problem is that the metagame has changed so that now its 3 gate robo 85% of the time. 3 gate robo means at least 1 obs, and if they're smart 2. I understand that whole mentality of "if he doesn't do this i autowin, i like autowin, lets do this strategy" but in my opinion of this is just a dt archon build, do HT tech and honestly storm has not been seen nearly as much as it deserves to be seen.
In summary, abandon autowin strategies combined with straight up strategies because it weakens both of them.
Go HT +chargelot because it is way more efficent.
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How do you take an expo against someone who goes blink obs? He has stupid mobility and can blink into your base when you're defending your natural and attack your natural when you're defending your main and because your army can be super kited by blink stalkers, he can pick off stupid amounts of units until you have an obs.
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I like to do phoenix build PvP, and in one of the games you uploaded you said a guy had a BO loss versus the DT when he went phoenix; do you think that it is possible to go phoenix against this build and not lose (assuming both players execute their builds well of course).
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On December 11 2011 05:09 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
I like to do phoenix build PvP, and in one of the games you uploaded you said a guy had a BO loss versus the DT when he went phoenix; do you think that it is possible to go phoenix against this build and not lose (assuming both players execute their builds well of course).
I open Phoenixes every PvP (mid-masters), and I think it is. I actually would much rather be the Phoenix player than the Zealot/Archon player. Cecil won the game in his replay, but the Phoenix player made two huge mistakes. He let the DT cause a total of four kills, when a good forcefield would have made that number zero (don't wait for the DT, just chain-FF until the obs is out), and even more importantly he used all his Phoenix energy lifting probes. If you see 4 gates and templar tech on one base, DO NOT lift probes: hunt down his army and lift zealots. Cecil only had 3 stalkers for anti-air, against 5 phoenixes. As long as you go after his low-Stalker army with your phoenixes, I don't think there's a timing where he can kill you.
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On December 11 2011 04:38 PlacidPanda wrote:
okay, i used to as well do similar openings but the problem is that the metagame has changed so that now its 3 gate robo 85% of the time. 3 gate robo means at least 1 obs, and if they're smart 2. I understand that whole mentality of "if he doesn't do this i autowin, i like autowin, lets do this strategy" but in my opinion of this is just a dt archon build, do HT tech and honestly storm has not been seen nearly as much as it deserves to be seen.
In summary, abandon autowin strategies combined with straight up strategies because it weakens both of them.
Go HT +chargelot because it is way more efficent.
I dont really agree with this because this puts you at a disadvantage vs any NON robo build by not forcing detection. vs a robo build dts are more than efficient enough because either he made the robo purely for detection, or he's making immortals, a win either way with a zealot archon comp. Maybe vs a build such as obs blink it could be argued, but even then you dont really want more than 2 archons anyway so overall it doesnt make that much of a difference in my opinion.
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I just played you on the ladder yesterday!
I like this build, i have actually been caught off guard a few times by the sheer number of chargelots that barrel up the ramp. I have sometimes gotten easy win though if i scout it and throw up some emergency buildings to block the ramp so the zealots cant get a good arc.
Good build though, another good post.
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haha i was skeptical at first because of recent rise of the 1gate/3gate robo builds, but this works surprisingly well, since most people on ladder who go robo skip the observer and go straight for immortals, so its almost autowin =)
Also works pretty really well against stargate openings, since at worst, worst, worst you end up in a base race, and more likely than not you kill his voidrays with stalkers/archons.
thanks again for the guide!
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Cecil, can you explain what you mean by "drawing the observer out' in order to get your DT in?
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its a nice push build, as long as you manage to break the forcefields with your archon, seen alot of people mess this up. People often get their archons stuck with other units if the opponent just puts up another wave of fields.
Its a bit easy to scout though, which make contering it quiet easy. Still a build that works in pvp, so good to sum it up somewhere.
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I have had incredibly good fortune with this build in Mid Masters (NA) play.
A couple things I've noticed:
1). I sacrifice the first DT 95% of the time, even if I know they have a robo. If you've kept your army relatively hidden, it forces them to stay in their base, as they likely fear more DTs are waiting for them to move out
2). Until 2 base play, there is nothing that really beats this army in a straight up engagement in an open area. This is beautiful as it allows you to deny expansions very safely.
3). I find that this opener is reasonable against Stargate (Phoenix) play. Depending on how much they invest in air, I sometimes feel it's necessary to grab a forge and a cannon or two. If you do this, it's smart to grab +1, Zealots love that upgrade anyways. When you engage, things generally go quite well, as lifting Zealots is horribly cost-inefficient and Archons are massive, of course
4). DTs are actually a dangerous counter to this build. As Cecil said before, you need to make sure you know where their gas is going. I've lost two games so far to DT warp prism drops that I simply didn't expect. You can deal with this though, just make sure you know it's coming
5). Don't straight up engage Colossus, duh
6). Quite frankly, some of this build's effectiveness comes from its rarity. Very few people expect Chargelot/Archon pushes around 9-10min. They usually assume you are DT rushing or Colossus rushing (if they didn't get an obs in your base)
Anyways, thanks a ton for this build. It definitely crushes ladder, and it's a good one to have in your arsenal for the bo3/5s in the Playhem daily or any other tournament setting.
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Finally getting the kinks worked out of this build, I posted about it in another pvp thread about it + uploaded a replay. I'll work on getting more replays, I'd really like to actually counter a dt rush with this. Seems like you need to be near psychic and get a sweet scout going.
On December 30 2011 14:39 Drowsy wrote:Here's a game that represents a very typical situation when you open 3stalker into dt chargelot archon vs the most common opening, robo+twilight immortal blink stalker. My opponent was 27-14 and top 8 masters, definitely a better player than me and just beat me before with a delayed 4 gate. http://drop.sc/81398 (obv not the real HerO) I think it's a really simple and easy build to execute. When his attack hits his army value is much higher, but my army annihilates him because of how hard chargelots rape blink stalkers. I think the best way to counter this build is to take natural asap, wall it off with buildings (shuts down any possibility of a chargelot archon player attacking you at him), repeatedly blink stalker harass multiple locations to prevent the archon chargelot player from taking a 3rd while you turtle, 2 robo colossi relying on the fact that colossi become much stronger than archons in the late game when they hit critical mass. Also another note: I initially tried this build using a templar archives thinking that the faster archons and lower mineral cost of hts might make for a stronger and earlier 1 archon+charge push. While it plays out well vs a robo opening, you will get crushed every time vs phoenix+gateway units builds. The dark shrine at minimum forces a 200/175 investment on the phoenix opener's part and that reduces his unit count enough to give you the edge you need against his army. Without the dark shrine, he'll have enough units to beat your 1 archon, 3 stalker, 1 sentry+chargelot force. Another thing I love about this is that you're going to be ahead on upgrades in 99% of your games, and when pvps go to 4 base stalemates with similar army compositions upgrades are usually the deciding factor.
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Finally found something that just totally hardcounters this and shuts it down early mid game when charge+archon is supposed to have its window. Immortal+voidray will completely destroy this composition early on. I had a guy open phoenix+robo on me, then immediately stop phoenixes and start vr+immortal when he saw I was building zealots+archons. Archons aren't very effective against voids because they're massive and voids so much longer range. If he goes for any type of phoenix opening you pretty much have to bust him as soon as charge and the first archon finish.
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On January 26 2012 10:25 Drowsy wrote:
Finally found something that just totally hardcounters this and shuts it down early mid game when charge+archon is supposed to have its window. Immortal+voidray will completely destroy this composition early on. I had a guy open phoenix+robo on me, then immediately stop phoenixes and start vr+immortal when he saw I was building zealots+archons. Archons aren't very effective against voids because they're massive and voids so much longer range. If he goes for any type of phoenix opening you pretty much have to bust him as soon as charge and the first archon finish.
replay?! sounds interesting
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United Kingdom36159 Posts
On January 26 2012 10:25 Drowsy wrote:
Finally found something that just totally hardcounters this and shuts it down early mid game when charge+archon is supposed to have its window. Immortal+voidray will completely destroy this composition early on. I had a guy open phoenix+robo on me, then immediately stop phoenixes and start vr+immortal when he saw I was building zealots+archons. Archons aren't very effective against voids because they're massive and voids so much longer range. If he goes for any type of phoenix opening you pretty much have to bust him as soon as charge and the first archon finish.
So the void(s) on the archon(s). I don't see how the immortal part is supposed to counter the chargelots though?
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Italy12246 Posts
The replay on Antiga is hilarious haha. 2k lost to 100 after early game...were you smurfing or something?
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I do this build in like half my pvp's, partly because I suck at pvp, and partly because I hate how most pvp's are all about "lol I have more collosi than you I win."
I feel people don't really understand how well chargelots TEAR through stalkers. Seriously it's ridiculous how bad you own stalker/immortal with just chargelots and a couple archons.
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Really envious about all the protoss guides on TL, and especially of the dedicated few who contribute some pretty neat stuff
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Have you tried going for void rays instead of immortals, if so how do you feel that works? Been playing this DT expand style for a good while now (love it <3), but somehow I haven't been able to find out what I like best (immortal vs void).
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I think this build I really bad these days considering how popular sentrys are becoming in PvP.
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On January 27 2012 06:35 -Trippin- wrote:
I think this build I really bad these days considering how popular sentrys are becoming in PvP.
Don't know if you know but Archons kinda smash them.
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On January 27 2012 05:37 Gtoad wrote:
I do this build in like half my pvp's, partly because I suck at pvp, and partly because I hate how most pvp's are all about "lol I have more collosi than you I win."
I feel people don't really understand how well chargelots TEAR through stalkers. Seriously it's ridiculous how bad you own stalker/immortal with just chargelots and a couple archons.
if you open stargate you generally never see any colossus up until the very very lategame
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On January 26 2012 22:51 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 10:25 Drowsy wrote:
Finally found something that just totally hardcounters this and shuts it down early mid game when charge+archon is supposed to have its window. Immortal+voidray will completely destroy this composition early on. I had a guy open phoenix+robo on me, then immediately stop phoenixes and start vr+immortal when he saw I was building zealots+archons. Archons aren't very effective against voids because they're massive and voids so much longer range. If he goes for any type of phoenix opening you pretty much have to bust him as soon as charge and the first archon finish. So the void(s) on the archon(s). I don't see how the immortal part is supposed to counter the chargelots though?
I tried to counter the voids by switching to blink stalkers. I guess theoretically if you had zealot+archon you could just suicide and take out some probes/tech and hope to come back. I think the easier route is just auto-busting allin after the first archon vs phx opening as Cecil's guide suggest. I guess I should rephrase this to say that trying to expand vs a phoenix build has a hard counter of him switching to voids. Nobody ever opens voids off of stargate, now I have to wonder if scouting with the first phoenix, then immediately switching to voids if you scout shrine+zealots would work against a 1 archon bust.
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On January 27 2012 05:16 Teoita wrote:The replay on Antiga is hilarious haha. 2k lost to 100 after early game...were you smurfing or something?
Wow I watched that replay last night and lmao! Never realized. Yeah that was on a smurf, but at the time I think I was top hundred or so of Masters before GM came out.
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This thread is all over the place. Some people say bust the ramp, others say never to do it. I gave this build a go a bunch of times today and had very little success. One person went 1 base colossus with mass zealot with it. Pushed with two colossus and destroyed me. I'm not enjoying it so far.
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 28 2012 19:53 AusBox wrote:
This thread is all over the place. Some people say bust the ramp, others say never to do it. I gave this build a go a bunch of times today and had very little success. One person went 1 base colossus with mass zealot with it. Pushed with two colossus and destroyed me. I'm not enjoying it so far.
If you lose to Colossus with Chargelot Archon and the colossus count is low (4 or less), it's because you had a terrible engagement. You need to fight in the open field and, if possible, try to set up a flank.
Regarding busting the ramp, i personally don't like it. It's a move that relies on your opponent screwing up. If he does make mistakes you destroy him, but otherwise he destroys you. As i said before, chargelot archon shines in the open, and a ramp is the exact opposite of an open space.
That said, setting up a contain at the bottom of someone's ramp and throwing down a nexus is a pretty good followup. Just make sure to not overprobe against a 1base allin.
In general, if on the sc2 strategy forums you don't know whose advice to follow, do what a blue poster suggests. It's pretty much always right, them blues are awesome
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On January 28 2012 20:04 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 19:53 AusBox wrote:
This thread is all over the place. Some people say bust the ramp, others say never to do it. I gave this build a go a bunch of times today and had very little success. One person went 1 base colossus with mass zealot with it. Pushed with two colossus and destroyed me. I'm not enjoying it so far. If you lose to Colossus with Chargelot Archon and the colossus count is low (4 or less), it's because you had a terrible engagement. You need to fight in the open field and, if possible, try to set up a flank. Regarding busting the ramp, i personally don't like it. It's a move that relies on your opponent screwing up. If he does make mistakes you destroy him, but otherwise he destroys you. As i said before, chargelot archon shines in the open, and a ramp is the exact opposite of an open space. That said, setting up a contain at the bottom of someone's ramp and throwing down a nexus is a pretty good followup. Just make sure to not overprobe against a 1base allin. In general, if on the sc2 strategy forums you don't know whose advice to follow, do what a blue poster suggests. It's pretty much always right, them blues are awesome
Thanks mate for the advice, I guess I just need to keep building experience with this build.
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On January 27 2012 07:27 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 06:35 -Trippin- wrote:
I think this build I really bad these days considering how popular sentrys are becoming in PvP. Don't know if you know but Archons kinda smash them.
It's not that simple bro. Ideally, your archons are behind you zealots. If they are in front, they get sniped and they also block your zealots. If they are behind your zealots, the zealots block them and the enemy can split half your army with sentrys. This army composition has a lot of problems in PvP.
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On January 28 2012 22:04 -Trippin- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 07:27 CecilSunkure wrote:On January 27 2012 06:35 -Trippin- wrote:
I think this build I really bad these days considering how popular sentrys are becoming in PvP. Don't know if you know but Archons kinda smash them. It's not that simple bro. Ideally, your archons are behind you zealots. If they are in front, they get sniped and they also block your zealots. If they are behind your zealots, the zealots block them and the enemy can split half your army with sentrys. This army composition has a lot of problems in PvP.
Those problems are solved with micro and picking your engagements.
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On January 29 2012 06:41 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 22:04 -Trippin- wrote:On January 27 2012 07:27 CecilSunkure wrote:On January 27 2012 06:35 -Trippin- wrote:
I think this build I really bad these days considering how popular sentrys are becoming in PvP. Don't know if you know but Archons kinda smash them. It's not that simple bro. Ideally, your archons are behind you zealots. If they are in front, they get sniped and they also block your zealots. If they are behind your zealots, the zealots block them and the enemy can split half your army with sentrys. This army composition has a lot of problems in PvP. Those problems are solved with micro and picking your engagements.
You can say the same for the other player as well. Only difference is that your options for as to wher to engage are much more limited than his.
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http://drop.sc/117833
This replay is rather sad, I execute the build and it shows how chargelot/archon absolutely decimates stalker/immortal.
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I like DT play but everyone goes 3 gate robo that I play so this build is really hard to pull off.
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Wonder if with new phoenix range it would be viable to play Zealot-Archon-Phoenix as lategame composition?
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Wonderful build.
I went from losing 90% to PvP to winning 90% :D
Won last 5 games with this (Top diamond)
Thanks alot for this guide
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so i tend to play as you suggest expand when i realise I can't break them off of 4 gates with charge.
but how many probes do you recommend going up to if you intend to pressure off of one base? all the way to 30?
also if you can't break them and expand when do you add on robo or a forge for upgrades? do you suggest throwing both down when you realise they've expanded and aren't going to all-in you.
also I struggle versus 1 base colossus, is it ideal to despite expanding cut probes and just spam units versus this?
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On November 11 2011 05:17 CecilSunkure wrote:I've updated the OP! Here is the changelog: Revision [ 2 ] Changelog (oldest to newest descending):
> Rewrote overview
> Made large changes to Mid Game Section
> Clarified Late Game Section
> Post your replays of this style and I'll include them in OP! Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 04:54 Teoita wrote:
Other than the two gates at the ramp, what gives you trouble when doing this build? Specifically, what do you think is the best way for a player going robo into blink to defend it? I think someone with Blink + Robo can easily defend on their ramp if they sit there army near the top of their ramp. Then the surface area of the Zealots + Archon is next to nothing until you start Blinking back, and by then the Charge/Archon army would have taken a lot of damage. Add in a Sentry for the defender and it gets really ugly for the offender. Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 05:07 GomJabbar wrote:
Great guide Cecil! I think it's also worth mentioning that DTs force (and are weakest against) robo tech. Chargelots and archons are quite good against robo tech in the early and mid game. So it's a pretty effective transition. If they opened anything but robo, they can't move out of their base until they get one, and you're free to expand early or do whatever. If they opened robo, they're building immortals and colossus and the chargelot+archon army will roll that with a good engagement and before there's a critical mass of colossus. Very good points! Although if you do manage to contain a player onto one base and expand, you need to have more tech than simply just Chargelots and Archons. A good number of Blink Stalkers + Chargelots and Archons is extremely strong, as once the engagement occurs there's nothing to stop your Stalkers from picking the Colossus off.
does this mean versus a 1 base colossus push I should try and get blink and blink stalkers as well as zealot archon for when he attacks....and then when i blink do i save my blinks for when he tries to micro back damaged colossi or do i just blink straight on top of them immediately?
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I found that in actual meta (high masters) this build can be really effective. A lot of non-agresive players are going for phoenix or blink builds with delayed robo, so the dts can deal enough damage to be ahead.
The build, still a gamble tho(as most in pvp lol).
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Not sure how a 4 month old guide as awesome as this one still has a spelling mistake in the title and leading line, but I just noticed it spells chargelot wrong, may be worth changing it to make sure people can always find it via the search function.
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On March 07 2012 02:20 totalpigeon wrote:
Not sure how a 4 month old guide as awesome as this one still has a spelling mistake in the title and leading line, but I just noticed it spells chargelot wrong, may be worth changing it to make sure people can always find it via the search function.
I plan to re-write this guide soon, so it's fine.
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I do this in large maps yet and works well, its weird to win with archon bust against high toss but when they scout your stuff normally take turtle mode , they can´t engage you in wide before colossi count is 4+ so you can macro hard. If you use this for eco lead , your enemys are fucking prisms and maybe stargate play , against sg i feel its ok try to run into the main with first archon , super annoying to defend mineral lines with this strat.
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Is this a viable 1 base all in strat? I had a diamond toss do it to me and I crushed it with ease off two bases with stalker immortal zealot and good chokes, maybe he didn't execute it well.
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On March 07 2012 06:02 kalteras wrote:
Is this a viable 1 base all in strat? I had a diamond toss do it to me and I crushed it with ease off two bases with stalker immortal zealot and good chokes, maybe he didn't execute it well.
No not really unless they take their natural expansion.
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This is really frustrating to play against, especially that even if you go robotics you can't walk down your ramp because he's there and he can get his base up so much earlier.
I usually open 3 stalker into robotic, if lets say I knew my opponent was doing this build. What should the best response be from me? Turtle in my base with building placement and get zealots, colossus and a few sentries and stalkers(from the beginning)?
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I don't know if you still use this build, but do you have any specific advice/ideas playing against blink/robo?
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Here's a small replay pack from yesterday on ladder! Note: drop.sc attached it to an older pack because the names were the same 
http://drop.sc/packs/787
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I have a question about playing vs a style like this.
If you are opening with a 3 gate and then adding a robo ~ say 40ish food maybe a bit sooner, is the best way to play vs this to get an obs out (should be out right after or before DT play is in effect) and then to turtle on 1 base adding either immortals or colsi before taking the expansion?
Can people add some thoughts on this?
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On April 12 2012 03:29 vaderseven wrote:
I have a question about playing vs a style like this.
If you are opening with a 3 gate and then adding a robo ~ say 40ish food maybe a bit sooner, is the best way to play vs this to get an obs out (should be out right after or before DT play is in effect) and then to turtle on 1 base adding either immortals or colsi before taking the expansion?
Can people add some thoughts on this?
You'll likely win if you play passively with Colossus and manage to not take any damage on two base. Then take a passive third, and smash the other dude with a very large Colossus count. But this is outdated. See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318673
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I think this build needs to be looked at again. The way iv been pulling it off on the ladder is opening 14/18 gas, rushing out 3 sentrys(4th if FF fail), and waiting for a 4 gate or some kind of agression. Dt's are great if they go blink or 4 gate all in because they have to fall back and get detection.
I like to think of DTs as being defensive or oppertunistic in this build. If the enemy does get sentry stalker immortal, or even for collosus; hitting before 2nd collosus with a couple archons and a gang of chargelots is powerful. I even stick a DT in my main army for dps. Im not sure how this does against phoenix as zealots are light units. I watched MVP tails do this build on the ladder pvp and alot of the time people answer by throwing up their own Dark shrine. Anyone have any advice of how to transition out of this build or ways it can be defended?
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in pretty much the entire guide u seem to be assuming your opponent is playing off 1 base. I always open 2 gate expand or 2 gate robo expand with the fake 4 gate thing, and I laugh everytime some1 tries this on me. Your build keeps them in their base and you have army advantage mid game, but if they were planning on going for a late game pvp your build wont do much to stop them. 2 gate robo expand, partial wall the natural with another 2-3 gates, chargelot archon wont break that. I'll have he collossus advantage and I can either expand again or go for a timing depending on when you take your 2nd and third. I'm mid masters and i've never lost to dt->chargelot archon. Maybe high masters can execute it better, but im sure they can also defend better as well.
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Day[9] daily # 439 covers Huk`s DT play. Huk goes doube Robo Collassi late game and attacks as soon as extended thermal lance is finished. The idea is to force a battle before the opponent gets a critical number of collasi, which would melt your zealots. I believe he also uses his midgame map control to take a third while denying the opponent's third.
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On June 15 2012 22:05 deathenator wrote:
in pretty much the entire guide u seem to be assuming your opponent is playing off 1 base. I always open 2 gate expand or 2 gate robo expand with the fake 4 gate thing, and I laugh everytime some1 tries this on me. Your build keeps them in their base and you have army advantage mid game, but if they were planning on going for a late game pvp your build wont do much to stop them. 2 gate robo expand, partial wall the natural with another 2-3 gates, chargelot archon wont break that. I'll have he collossus advantage and I can either expand again or go for a timing depending on when you take your 2nd and third. I'm mid masters and i've never lost to dt->chargelot archon. Maybe high masters can execute it better, but im sure they can also defend better as well.
In PvP once the opponent's first Stalker is out, you have to assume 1 base play. If you don't then you're just being a coin flipping bad player. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I don't take criticism like yours lightly as it might teach someone something incorrect.
On June 15 2012 23:51 Sated wrote:I've been using this opening to transition into a 6 Gate Chargelot/Archon all-in off 2 Bases and I've had a lot of success with it at Diamond level. However, now I've started hitting Masters players on the ladder, my Protoss opponents seem to have worked out that all you need to do is wall-in at the natural and you'll be relatively safe. If I see this kind of wall-off, which of these would be the better option... 1) Retreat and go Double Robo Colossus: They can't really push out onto the map because my Chargelot/Archon composition will beat them on an open field. Because of this, I feel like I'd have enough time to build up my own Colossi numbers to a reasonable amount. 2) Retreat and go Double Stargate Void Ray: A less orthodox option, but with Archons for AoE and Void Rays to take care of the Colossi, could a Chargelot/Archon/Void Ray mix be viable? It'd certainly be more interesting than Colossus wars. Here is the replay. There's no point watching it after my all-in fails because I'm dead at that point. Me attempting to go for Colossi was essentially me hoping that the other guy was going to play really passively and let me get back into the game. I actually feel like I could've won when I all-in'd if I'd stomped their Forcefields better with my Archons since a few of my units were out of the fight, but it would've been really close and I don't think that I should rely on Archons being able to stomp Forcefields in every PvP game I play: http://drop.sc/198305
If you go Colossi then you need to have some sort of advantage. Usually DT getting some probes, or Sentries will work. A mobile Chargelot/Archon/Immortal army in the mid-game will buy you time, especially if you force a walloff in the opponent's natural. You can use this time for Double Robo Colo, or a fast third into something else.
Double Stargate voidrays will not work against Stalker Colossus, so this option really only works if you surprise your opponent or are already pretty far ahead. Hiding and stock piling voidrays can be very effective. I played a game on Ohana where I went two base Carrier and absolutely wrecked my opponent's chargelot/archon/stalkere army all because I hid my tech for so long.
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Given the fact that the meta is to 4gate, robo, or twilight tech. This build used as a 1 base all in is extremely powerful. The dark templar costing less gas makes it even faster if you want charge. I hit around 9 minutes with ~16 zealots 3 archones and 2 sentry. Won last 5 games with this strategy; two people went 4 gate(platinum/diamond), 1 phoenix(diamond), other 3 gate robo expo into collosus(masters). I usually lose my PvP but since i started doing this its been really good.
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EPT
