EPTPvT 16 Nexus: A Second Look
While there are similar guides available, I'd like to further explore this opener's place in the PvT match-up. I will continue to find more Terran responses, and try to understand how a Protoss may best deal with them. I'd like to discover all of the possible Terran all-ins that a Nexus first opener might precipitate so that I may make this guide as comprehensive as possible.
But I digress. I'd like to give a shoutout to the wonderful DUCKVILLELOL who put together these beautiful cast, even including some PiP action!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNUeycByh00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA5oAzzyKGY
follow him on twitter http://twitter.com/#!/DUCKVILLELOL
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Change log
1/31/2012 - Added floating 3 rax section
1/31/2012 - Added floating 3 rax section
I recommend only using such a build on a map where the natural is somewhat defensible, by aid of a ramp. This will help you deal with bio pushes and the dreaded hellion run-by. You want to get yourself an advantage in the mid game with this build, but in order to do that, you can't lose right off the bat to a push or lose lots of probes to harassment. So, I recommend nexus first on--from the current ladder pool--Shakuras, Entombed, and Antigua.
Here is your generic opener-
- 9 Pylon (scout)
- 11 2 CB on nexus, consecutively
- 16 Nexus
- 16 Gateway
- 17 Pylon
- 18 Gas*
- 20 Zealot (CB'd)
- 22 Cybernetics core
*With your gas probe, scout your natural on an attack command to check for bunkers and the scouting scv. if the scv enter the natural, pin this probe to it. I also like to check around a little bit for proxies, though I haven't had a terran do this to me yet.
Scouting
- You need to get the most out of your probe scout, as you're sacrificing a bit of economy by scouting so early.
- If you start going up the natural ramp and get hit by a marine, check the natural to see if it is a 1 rax cc on low ground. lose the probe doing this if absolutely necessary; it's very important.
- If you scout him last on antigua or entombed, you are in the dark and will most likely see a wall of 2 depots and a rax. You will have to play a bit more safely than we'd like, but that's just the way of the world.
- If you scout him first or second, you will be able to get into the base to see whether or not he has taken his gas. From here it is important to find his depot, if he has started one. If you see him start a depot before his marine is out, that means he has not started a 2nd rax on 16, which means you can rule out the 5 marines +1 marauder push.
- If you scout a no gas opener, you cannot assume 1rax CC until you in fact see the CC. Check the edges of his base for additional barracks. Refer to the Floating 3 Rax section below which details a couple of responses.
From here, you will begin to make some deviations:
If you scout gas, or cannot scout gas, proceed as follows:
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- 9 Pylon (scout)
- 11 2 CB on nexus, consecutively
- 16 Nexus
- 16 Gateway
- 17 Pylon
- 18 Gas*
- 20 Zealot (CB'd)
- 22 Cybernetics core
~Probes cut as needed to sustain 100% production on 2 gateways~
- 22 Gateway(2)
- 25 Zealot (2) (CB'd)
- 27 Stalker + WG (both CB'd)
Continue adding stalkers and pylons as needed. If you see the 2rax pressure coming, continue making zealots and stalkers out of 2 gates off of one gas. The 5 marine 1 marauder will leave a little before 5:30, so make sure you have a unit to spot it at this time. If you see marauders and marines but he does not hit you immediately, he might be teching to medivacs. You can sustain 2 gateways of production and eventually afford a 3rd gate and a robotics from here. You won't be able to maintain constant probe production, but your economy will still be strong against his one base mules.
On the other hand, if you were able to spot a lack of gas or a 1 rax cc, or even a cc first, proceed as follows:
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- 9 Pylon (scout)
- 11 2 CB on nexus, consecutively
- 16 Nexus
- 16 Gateway
- 17 Pylon
- 18 Gas*
- 20 Zealot (CB'd)
- 22 Cybernetics core
~Probe production maintained~
- 25 Zealot (2) (CB'd)
- @100% 2nd zealot - 1st Stalker (CB'd)
- Pylon
- @100% 1st stalker - 2nd Stalker (CB'd)
- Continued stalker production off of one gate
- Gases 2 and 3
- Robotics + Gateways 2+3
Alternatively, you may opt for pure gateways to do some pressure off of two bases. The above opening is designed to be more economical and move into heavy macro mode, either with double forge or colossus drop follow ups. With your 2 zealots and 1 stalker, you may move out. If they did not start a bunker, it is possible to do some damage to marines or scvs with a little bit of micro.
Common Terran follow ups when gas is taken
1;1;1
It is important to make use of all of the information at hand. You will be moving out of the 2 gate opener above, so your robotics will not come as quickly as it would with the 1 gate opener. You need to identify the type of push Terran is concocting. If you see siege tanks, I recommend using 3 gases and moving into colossus production with range as fast as humanly possible. So long as you maintain a high enough stalker account to deal with the banshees (use the 2 stalkers/banshee rule of thumb here) and have a colossus out or almost out when the push is coming, the Terran will be hard pressed to force an engagement, which is what he wants to do as soon as he can. Use your range colossus to pick off tanks that encroach too far, bunkers that are too bold, and marines that stray from the pack. Your stalkers will be backed up, only venturing forth to deny banshees from taking pot shots on your colossus. Your zealots and a sentry or 2 will be off to the side. You can so sit until your natural is mined out if he is unable to force an engage. The key here is patience.+ Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-2922_51_33.jpg)
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2 Rax pressure
This push will be easier to read because you can confirm exactly what it is as he is moving out. He will have a marauder and 5 marines, if it is the reactor-1st variety. As mentioned earlier, this will be down his ramp by 5:30 with a marauder and some marines. The second barracks might be proxied somewhere, so don't assume it is not a 2 rax just because you don't count 5 marines. You will have 2 zealots and a stalker when this hits, which is not a very good fight for you, especially if he is pulling SCVs. You will need to use probes to fight. The way you do this is you hotkey a group of probes, I'd recommend 10-15 of them at the least, and make them mineral walk to your 3rd base. When your units are engaging them, give the probes the attack command once they are around the marines. Mineral walking helps you get a surround and also removes their attack priority until they are actually attacking.+ Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-2922_46_53.jpg)
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I've faced another variant, this one with 2 barracks with tech labs. This one is not as strong, as marines are much scarier when you have pulled probes effectively. In this replay, Terran follows up with a hellion-marine-marauder-scv-medivac timing with stim. If you are aware that hellions will be in the mix, do your best to simcity your main somewhat to mitigate hellion drops. And always engage in a favorable location.
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Marauder or Reaper Expand
This opener will play out like the below ones, but you need to play the safer opener because you will not always know if your opponent has started his CC.
Common Terran follow ups to 1 rax CC
Fast third command center
Terran is going to want to out greed you here. Because I have been responding to fe builds with colossus drop, this Terran response is not very strong. You can scout the 3rd CC opener with your Obs scout. If he hasn't left his base with the CC, you'll simply see it. But if his natural is lacking in saturation and/or there are no mules there, it is because he is muling up his 3rd base.+ Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-2922_53_42.jpg)
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4-5 Barracks Marines before gas
This opener has caught on quickly. If your opponent has opened 1rax cc, there's no reason not to keep 3 or more stalkers outside of his natural ramp until it is late enough for stim to have finished or medivacs to be out. It's in your best interest to kite these marines across the map as well as you can and put off taking real damage from them until absolutely necessary.
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Shakuras- 3 Bunker block
You can block this with a pylon at the natural, but I don't like to have that pylon so exposed in case of a different all-in. You'll have zealots when the bunkers go up (which you could use to block the bunkers if you are so vigilant), so simply attack the scvs whenever possible and ignore the marine(s) shooting you until you are on the verge of losing one. Only pull probes if the bunkers have a chance at going up. This by no means should end the game. From here, your opponent may transition into any of the other builds here.
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2 Gas after CC -> 3 rax before factory bio
This seems to be the standard. Some of them get quick stim, others do not. Either way, you can deal with the pokes that come off of 2 bases with gateway units so long as your forcefields are good enough, as we're only playing this out and maps that allow you to do so.
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Wild card openers
These openers don't quite fit into the above categories.
Floating 3 Rax SCV + Marine All-in
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You will need to scout this in order to change your build accordingly. If you scout no gas, you cannot assume 1rax fe; you must check his base for building barracks if you are able to get inside. If you cannot get inside, you will need to scout where the barracks would land. Even if you scout last, you will be able to change your build in time. Follow this:
9 pylon, scout
16 nexus
17 gate
17 pylon
18 gas
(floating rax spotted)
18 gate
18 zealot
20 core
this will net you 3 zealots at 5:05, which is before his first 5 marines will be at your natural.
Your first stalker will be out at 5:20, followed by a second at 5:35. You will have:
3 zealots 2 stalkers and 22 probes at 5:35. It might be in your best interest to only mine gas with 2 probes. This will enable you to have 4z2s + 24probes at 5:48 and 6z2s at 6:15. Terran cannot force an engage with probes until the 2nd wave of SCVs hits a little after 6:00.
Ultimately, you're either looking at:
6 Zealots, 2 Stalkers, and 26 Probes vs.11 Marines and 17 or 18 SCVs, depending on if he lost his scout SCV or
3 Zealots, 4 stalkers and 24 Probes vs 11 Marines and 17-18 SCVs if every SCV is pulled.
I think both are close but winnable battles, given a good probe pull with mineral walk. It is also very likely some of the marines and scvs will be softened up before the terran can force you to engage thanks to your stalkers.
Cannon alternative response:
Assuming no fixed spawns, and thus a 9 scout. As stated above, you can scout last and find the floating raxes at 18-19 food. The placement of your 2nd pylon by your Nexus is a blind choice, not based on scouting whatsoever. I don't think this bad practice, anyway.
Disclaimer: this might sound insane
9 pylon, scout
16 nexus
16 Gateway
17 Pylon (low ground hugging the nexus like this + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-3104_34_00.jpg)
18 Gas
(18-19 floating raxes are spotted at the last scouted + Show Spoiler +)
19 Forge
20 Zealot
22 Core
22 Zealot (2)
24 Cannon (placed to minimize surface area from SCVs)
When the 5 marines arrive, they will see this:+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-3104_35_04.jpg)
When the second wave of SCVs arrives, at which point he needs to engage you, he will be up against this: + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-3104_35_29.jpg)
To ensure the 2nd cannon will be up in time for the second wave of SCVs, you must start it no later than 5:15.
2 Cannons, 2 Stalkers, 2 Zealots and 24 Probes vs 11 Marines, 18 SCVs
I don't think this is at all winnable for him. At this point, you can support 2 gateways of chronoboosted stalkers and he is capped at 35 supply with only a single mule for income. He cannot even deny mining at your natural nor try to focus it down outside of cannon range. The cannons negate SCVs attacking entirely, and your stalkers can outrange his marines if he tries to avoid cannon fire in any way.
Some possible issues-
The best course of action for Terran might be to try to drill up the ramp. I don't think would be too troublesome, however, as this exposes his marines to cannon fire and whatever units/probes you have defending as they try to move up the ramp.
It's impossible to deny scouting of the forge. However, at this point, his 2nd rax has already finished. Even if he cancels his 3rd rax upon seeing the forge, your nexus is done before he starts 2nd CC if he calls off the rush, and the first 50 energy from his orbital is wasted. This is assuming he scouts you first. If he doesn't scout you first after the completion of his first rax, his 3rd barracks will be finished by the time he can spot your forge, and at that point he is entirely committed to the rush
9 pylon, scout
16 nexus
17 gate
17 pylon
18 gas
(floating rax spotted)
18 gate
18 zealot
20 core
this will net you 3 zealots at 5:05, which is before his first 5 marines will be at your natural.
Your first stalker will be out at 5:20, followed by a second at 5:35. You will have:
3 zealots 2 stalkers and 22 probes at 5:35. It might be in your best interest to only mine gas with 2 probes. This will enable you to have 4z2s + 24probes at 5:48 and 6z2s at 6:15. Terran cannot force an engage with probes until the 2nd wave of SCVs hits a little after 6:00.
Ultimately, you're either looking at:
6 Zealots, 2 Stalkers, and 26 Probes vs.11 Marines and 17 or 18 SCVs, depending on if he lost his scout SCV or
3 Zealots, 4 stalkers and 24 Probes vs 11 Marines and 17-18 SCVs if every SCV is pulled.
I think both are close but winnable battles, given a good probe pull with mineral walk. It is also very likely some of the marines and scvs will be softened up before the terran can force you to engage thanks to your stalkers.
Cannon alternative response:
Assuming no fixed spawns, and thus a 9 scout. As stated above, you can scout last and find the floating raxes at 18-19 food. The placement of your 2nd pylon by your Nexus is a blind choice, not based on scouting whatsoever. I don't think this bad practice, anyway.
Disclaimer: this might sound insane
9 pylon, scout
16 nexus
16 Gateway
17 Pylon (low ground hugging the nexus like this + Show Spoiler +
18 Gas
(18-19 floating raxes are spotted at the last scouted + Show Spoiler +
location![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-3104_34_09.jpg)
19 Forge
20 Zealot
22 Core
22 Zealot (2)
24 Cannon (placed to minimize surface area from SCVs)
When the 5 marines arrive, they will see this:+ Show Spoiler +
When the second wave of SCVs arrives, at which point he needs to engage you, he will be up against this: + Show Spoiler +
To ensure the 2nd cannon will be up in time for the second wave of SCVs, you must start it no later than 5:15.
2 Cannons, 2 Stalkers, 2 Zealots and 24 Probes vs 11 Marines, 18 SCVs
I don't think this is at all winnable for him. At this point, you can support 2 gateways of chronoboosted stalkers and he is capped at 35 supply with only a single mule for income. He cannot even deny mining at your natural nor try to focus it down outside of cannon range. The cannons negate SCVs attacking entirely, and your stalkers can outrange his marines if he tries to avoid cannon fire in any way.
Some possible issues-
The best course of action for Terran might be to try to drill up the ramp. I don't think would be too troublesome, however, as this exposes his marines to cannon fire and whatever units/probes you have defending as they try to move up the ramp.
It's impossible to deny scouting of the forge. However, at this point, his 2nd rax has already finished. Even if he cancels his 3rd rax upon seeing the forge, your nexus is done before he starts 2nd CC if he calls off the rush, and the first 50 energy from his orbital is wasted. This is assuming he scouts you first. If he doesn't scout you first after the completion of his first rax, his 3rd barracks will be finished by the time he can spot your forge, and at that point he is entirely committed to the rush
SCV + Marine push into dual port all-in
The name on this replay should make sense to you. Probe pull is essential, obviously.
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5 Rax Reaper
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Protoss preferred followups
I have used double forge, robo/twilight, and fast colossus transitions into the mid game off of nexus first builds against Terran FE builds. But the one middle game transition that I have found to be the best one is the speed colossus drop. None of the common Terran openers deal with this style very well. While he can get vikings and turrets, nothing will ever catch up the speed WP. Against fast 3rd CC builds, his starport tech is delayed for quite some time so vikings will be slower to come out. If he has landed his third, there is no way for him to defend all three of his bases with bio units, and covering all of them with multiple turrets is costly and not effective at all once your colossus gets range. 4 rax before gas also delays its starport tech, and his marine force is manageable with just gateway units from 3 gateways. 2 gas after cc into 3 rax bio pushes are stronger, but can be dealt with using forcefields on the maps we are playing this out on. I largely consider 16 nex to have a very great edge over 1 rax CC and CC first because the speed WP colossus style exists.
Unexplored territory, and how you will lose opening 16 Nexus
Unfortunately, I have not faced enough 1 base 4-5 rax marine-scv all-ins to claim that I have done enough testing to shore the build up completely. However, I have won against most I have faced with the initial zealot(s) and a substantial probe pull. It is very easy to be tricked, however. A 1rax build with no gas will look exactly like a 1rax cc but could just as easily contain additional rax instead. Once you have scouted a lack of gas, there is no need for you to stay within the natural expansion, just to wait for the marine to chase you away. Start checking towers and the edge off of your opponent's base for proxies. You never know what you may find.
If you use this build on ladder and exclusively on the maps I have specified, you will still lose some games stupidly. It can be difficult to know exactly the best response with limited information, especially when you cannot get inside of your opponent's base. This is somehow mitigated by the 9 scout, but you still might be denied valuable information if you scout your opponent last or he has walled it by placing an early depot to finish later.
Against 1;1;1 pushes, it is very easy to lose because the limitations of your information might have led you to play a safer opener, and thus delay your robo somewhat. This will stop you from powering up --probing up to ~40 and adding infrastructure for 5gate/immortal or 4 or 5gate/colossus-- in a way that lets you deal with it effectively. Some variants of the 1;1;1 will include marine drops, hellion drops, and hellion run by`s. You should have pylons on the edges of your base, as hellion drops are much more easily mitigated if you see them happening. If you have a probe below their ramp, their is no need to have all of your units in a clump by your natural. Spread your stalkers out around your base to fend off banshees and drop harassment. You may even create a partial wall off at your ramp with a pylon and a 3x2 structure and keep a unit on hold position to block flow between the bases if you please.
Against bio pushes, it is easy to mess up the engage by forcefielding incorrectly and from there lose immediately. However, I really only have experience with transitioning into colossus drops, so if you choose a safer transition this might not be an issue for you at all.
Here's a replay bank. These are just the ones in the spoilers above.
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could not tell you why the links are behaving so
Thanks for the read. Please leave your comments/replays/questions/suggestions here!
-aLeJ
