EPTOn January 30 2012 17:54 thezanursic wrote:
Can it survive 2 raxx marauder pressure?
Can it survive 2 raxx marauder pressure?
Yea cb stalker/zealot and pull probes as needed.
[G] PvT 16 Nexus: A Second Look - Page 2
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
Yea cb stalker/zealot and pull probes as needed. | ||
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
On January 30 2012 17:54 thezanursic wrote: Can it survive 2 raxx marauder pressure? Yes it can, which you would know if you read the section on 2 rax... Marauder only two rax is is significantly easier than one tech lab one reactor version, because marauders are pretty terrible against zealots. | ||
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
On January 30 2012 17:44 Surili wrote: Great guide as always alej. Have you ever tried beating a 111 by just building 7-8 gates after you scout with your obs and then completely overpowering the 111? Because I basically never lose to that push, I find that this build pretty much hard counters it as long as you don't try to get too clever. Also, I feel this is the most newbie friendly way of dealing with 111 off of a fast expand. I've coached gold league players beating diamond level 111s through this because all the micro that is required is a line of ffs through the middle of the marines and tanks and then pulling back when that half is dead, then wait for next warp in and go again. There are other, more effective ways of doing it, my personal favourite is immortal drop on tanks, but this is probably the easiest in my opinion. Ps sorry about the double post! | ||
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Vaporak
70 Posts
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
- fast helions harass (like: really, really fast helions.. ), followed up by marauders pressure - 2 rax tech-lab ( one proxied ) into pure marauders -> this one I just have no idea how to handle. It soon reaches a critical mass that you can't handle anymore  Terran will kite and run back if you pull probes, his little marauder army will snowball into something you can't manage even after warp is done.. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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aznkukuboi
120 Posts
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_NIx_
United States49 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On January 30 2012 19:41 Sated wrote: Having watched Axslav do his Nexus-first build a lot (his stream is amazing for anyone looking to learn this opening, because he does it in a lot of his PvT ladder games), I usually forgo the 9 Probe scout and instead scout with the Probe that builds the Nexus on 15 supply. I want to get my Nexus/Gateway down as fast as possible when using this build because once you've committed to going for the Nexus-first, you might as well get as much of an economic advantage out of it as possible. It's always possible that the Terran will have blocked you out of their base by the time you get their on a 4-player map, so scouting on 9 is a risk that I don't think is worth it when you're going for this build. From that point on, it's just a case of whether or not you're going to be able to scout a Marauder or a Tech-Lab on their first Barracks because the only thing that scares me when doing this build is getting a Robo up in time if they go for Cloaked Banshees: I'll usually throw a Robo down around 5:30 if I haven't seen a Marauder/Reaper/Tech-Lab by then. It's true that you can lose to some dumb things like 2rax pressure when you do this build, but with good unit control you should have no trouble defend Barracks pressure if you chrono-boost units out of a single Gateway and pull an appropriate number of Probes. To be honest, my main problem with this build isn't early aggression from the Terran, it's my own over-commitment to 6/7-gate pressure - but over-committing against Terran is my problem in PvT no matter what build I go for >.<; I am not a fan of gw timings off of this opener. check any of the replays and you will see how I go about applying pressure while still moving forward in tech/macro  | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On January 30 2012 22:07 Sated wrote: I plan on doing so when I have a chance, but it's a problem with my own mindset more than anything else. I've seen Axslav do this build hundreds of times and continue the game normally but, after seeing a Nexus first -> 7gate bust against Nada in GSL (I think it was Parting), I've become a little over-zealous (heh) in PvT. Bad mindset  here's a new mindset for you to adopt: in a lot of games I play with this style, the terran does not leave after he has lost an engagement or lost a lot of workers. they leave as i completely stop all of their mining and prevent them from making trades that are anywhere close to beneficial :D sometimes they leave when I don't even realize the game is "over" who cares if the game is 30+ mins long if you have a 100% chance of winning? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 30 2012 15:46 Alejandrisha wrote: can you link me? i vaguely remember one of them was on dual site. huk didn't nexus first there, but 1g fe. the push is much more managable when you have a secondary ramp I don't think so, I think he Nexus first twice. I'm somewhat sure of this because he lost the 2nd game in almost identical fashion to the 1st, and at the time it seemed a very dumb thing to do. | ||
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YaTa
51 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:12 YaTa wrote: hi, i use this build literally every game vs T on ladder or playhem game vs pro players. I am rank 50ish on GM with high win lose ratio and as much as i love this build and although i have beaten many players with it like mouz marco and more, it does not work 100% vs top players who open gas first. I practice with illusion and other top T players and have played top notch players such as rainbow. Let me tell you, i open differently and always open with 2 gates after nexus, and gas first then pylon, reason for this is to get 2 stalkers out of your 2 gates asap as soon as core is done and u are able to afford warp as well. The problem is you can lose to proxy raxes like rainbow did it to me or any sort of 1 base they do (fast banshee into marines/tank etc and bring scvs). I have replays if you are interested. sure id be happy to take a look | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Personally I just always go 20 nexus instead of 16 nexus because I think the economy is nearly equal (you can scout later, don't have to probe patrol, not have to probe cut etc which makes up a large part of the later nexus) and the stalker / warpgate is out much faster. Some aggresive openings are just really hard to hold with 16 nex and you don't really have the time to respond to them often with 16 nex. Fast cyber builds commit to the greedy eco later so you at least have a window to respond to stuff like 3 rax no gas pressure. Only map I like 16 nex is tal darim as I feel the others are just too small and especially some bunker spots between natural and the geyser can be abused too easily, even if you just patrol with 1 probe they can sometimes get up a bunker if the scv takes a lucky path while building. It's a good build but I just feel the overall trouble you have to go through to make this work doesn't really put this ahead of 20 nex Sase style which is also a build that can pressure quicker if you want too. Perhaps I'll do a test when I get around to it but I think 16 nex is only a probe or two at most ahead of 20 nex while having to waste more resources on stuff like probe patrolling. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66529 Also, how do you defend 1 rax into 4/5 rax marine/scvs all-in without a cc or the 3 rax supply drop allin? Major told me that it's impossible to defend if you only get 1 gateway as you suggest vs no gas, but I don't 16 nex first much and have never tested this. I'm also not even sure if the 3 rax supply drop is defendable, although it's a blind counter. Here's an example: http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/vod/66694/?set=6&lang= Also, perhaps considering linking pro games, especially games where the 16 nex player defends certain pressures. I'd also like to echo the sentiment that marauder/hellion seems very hard to stop. I've witnessed this in the GSL at least twice, but don't remember exactly what games they were. Also, what about putting your 2nd pylon in your natural to spot for bunker? I've seen this very commonly too. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On January 31 2012 03:34 NrGmonk wrote: Proxy 2 rax is pretty much the blind counter ^^. Check it out in this game: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66529 Also, how do you defend 1 rax into 4/5 rax marine/scvs all-in without a cc or the 3 rax supply drop allin? Major told me that it's impossible to defend if you only get 1 gateway as you suggest vs no gas, but I don't 16 nex first much and have never tested this. I'm also not even sure if the 3 rax supply drop is defendable, although it's a blind counter. Here's an example: http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/vod/66694/?set=6&lang= Also, perhaps considering linking pro games, especially games where the 16 nex player defends certain pressures. I'd also like to echo the sentiment that marauder/hellion seems very hard to stop. I've witnessed this in the GSL at least twice, but don't remember exactly what games they were. Also, what about putting your 2nd pylon in your natural to spot for bunker? I've seen this very commonly too. Proxy rax tactics and/or no gas marine all-ins are a big reason for me not to go 16 nexus on the smaller maps or those with limited spawns. Just too much risk for what you get in return I think. It might be possible to stop some of those all-ins with a wall-off though on maps with a ramp. I haven't gotten to testing it too much yet but if you make your first gate and cyber near the ramp in such a way that a 2nd gate can completely block it off you could sac the nexus and defend your main against all-in marine strats. If they pull scv's and you lose the nexus you can probably be ahead and a few stalkers behind a wall can hold of a lot of marines as they can't pick off the wall without being shot when there is a ramp. Perhaps worth experimenting with such a setup just in case as it's good to have to the gateway close to the ramp anyway. | ||
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gdroxor
United States639 Posts
I've seen a lot of Terran do some reactored starport 4rax 1/1 stim timing push off of one base, has anyone encountered this on ladder while doing any variant of nexus first? What is the appropriate reaction, or is it a build order loss based on timing? | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
even with the greedy variant of the build in the op, you have 1 more zealot before your core finishes, and you get your core at the same time. an important adjustment I suppose would be to use your scouting probe to check for floating rax, as there is little else for the probe to do once gas/no gas is scouted, especially on a 2 player map where you can guarantee getting this information I did a little research here from the vods; thank you for linking those. mvp starts his 2nd rax at 2:12 and the 3rd at 3:04 the 2nd rax is started a full minute before the first marine is out, at which point the probe would have to leave. herO could have gotten this information if he thought to seek it. The 2nd rax lands on the low ground at 3:27, at which point a marine could not have stopped herO's probe from scouting it. Had herO's probe found the 2nd rax, he would have stayed around long enough to see the 3rd one before his probe is killed by the marine that pops at about 3:10. He scouted on 10, and it's a 2 player map. He sacrifices a bit of econ to ensure he can get in before a 16 depot. But MVP cannot deny scouting whatsoever given that he skips the second depot. the only way he could deny a probe entering his base would be to use another barracks to wall off, but that would show 2 rax; he could also wall at the bottom of the ramp, but that is the universal sign for 'i want to wall with 1 depot meaning i am getting more rax instead of a 2nd depot' herO's build was 17 nexus 17 gate, a very greedy variant of nexus first. He does not put his early scout to use and so continues his build as planned. I wouldn't expect a nexus first to be able to hold off this kind of rush given that he did not see that it was coming until it was just outside his natural. Given that he could have scouted this rush before it started, I propose another variant, one that you can audible to upon the completion of your second pylon, which comes with plenty of time after you would have scouted the 2nd rax. It uses a 12 scout rather than an 11 scout which still guarantee's herO's want to enter the terran's base before the 2nd depot would be build with a typical no-gas opener. Mining at the natural is denied at 5:15, so that is reflected in these numbers, as well: 9py 12 scout 16 nexus 17 gate 17 pylon 18 gas 18 gate 18 zealot 20 core this will net you 3 zealots at 5:05, which is before MVP's first 5 marines began hitting herO's nexus. Your first stalker will be out at 5:20, followed by a second at 5:35. You will have: 3 zealots 2 stalkers and 22 probes at 5:35. MVP's 10 SCVs got to herO's natural at 5:30 I ripped mvp's build, and you can get 8 marines and your first wave of SCV's to the nexus at 5:30 Initially, it will be 3 zealots against 8 marines and 10 SCVs, a fight that you will not win obviously. However, in a few seconds, you will ha've 2 stalkers, 3 zealots and 22 probes against 8 marines, 10 scvs and marines streaming in 1 at a time, and not very quickly. MVP's second wave of SCVS would not be able to engage in the main until 6:00, at which point you will have a 3rd stalker and a 4th will follow 10-15 seconds afterward. By changing unit choice and pulling a probe from gas upon seeing the additional gates, you can have 4z2s + 24probes at 5:48 and 6z2s at 6:15. Terran cannot force an engage with probes until the 2nd wave of SCVs hits a little after 6:00. Ultimately, you're either looking at: 6 Zealots, 2 Stalkers, and 26 Probes vs.11 Marines and 17 or 18 SCVs, depending on if he lost his scout SCV or 3 Zealots, 4 stalkers and 24 Probes vs 11 Marines and 17-18 SCVs I think both are close but winnable battles, given a good probe pull with mineral walk. It is also very likely some of the marines and scvs will be softened up before the terran can force you to engage thanks to your stalkers. herO managed to kill a marine before the engage. I'm thinking about a 3rd gate if you have scouted it as herO should have been able to, but I haven't run those tests yet. Obviously, not all maps are 2 player maps. For now, we will assume Antigua, and we scout the Terran last. You can confirm the spawn scout, and you will reach the place the barracks are elevatored down as the first one is landing in time to place your gate on 18 or 19 if you prefer. Hell, you might be able to delay it landing with your probe if your opponent's timings aren't as crisp as MVP's! I will continue to look for the best possible solution. edit: warpgate research was omitted in all of these trials. you have to use too much CB on it in order for it to help you in time, and that means less units when the terran can force you to engage. herO didn't cancel his. | ||
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Dauntless
Norway548 Posts
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