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PvT 16 Nexus: A Second Look
While there are similar guides available, I'd like to further explore this opener's place in the PvT match-up. I will continue to find more Terran responses, and try to understand how a Protoss may best deal with them. I'd like to discover all of the possible Terran all-ins that a Nexus first opener might precipitate so that I may make this guide as comprehensive as possible.
But I digress. I'd like to give a shoutout to the wonderful DUCKVILLELOL who put together these beautiful cast, even including some PiP action!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNUeycByh00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA5oAzzyKGY
follow him on twitter http://twitter.com/#!/DUCKVILLELOL
+ Show Spoiler +Change log
1/31/2012 - Added floating 3 rax section
I recommend only using such a build on a map where the natural is somewhat defensible, by aid of a ramp. This will help you deal with bio pushes and the dreaded hellion run-by. You want to get yourself an advantage in the mid game with this build, but in order to do that, you can't lose right off the bat to a push or lose lots of probes to harassment. So, I recommend nexus first on--from the current ladder pool--Shakuras, Entombed, and Antigua.
Here is your generic opener-
- 9 Pylon (scout)
- 11 2 CB on nexus, consecutively
- 16 Nexus
- 16 Gateway
- 17 Pylon
- 18 Gas*
- 20 Zealot (CB'd)
- 22 Cybernetics core
*With your gas probe, scout your natural on an attack command to check for bunkers and the scouting scv. if the scv enter the natural, pin this probe to it. I also like to check around a little bit for proxies, though I haven't had a terran do this to me yet.
Scouting- You need to get the most out of your probe scout, as you're sacrificing a bit of economy by scouting so early.
- If you start going up the natural ramp and get hit by a marine, check the natural to see if it is a 1 rax cc on low ground. lose the probe doing this if absolutely necessary; it's very important.
- If you scout him last on antigua or entombed, you are in the dark and will most likely see a wall of 2 depots and a rax. You will have to play a bit more safely than we'd like, but that's just the way of the world.
- If you scout him first or second, you will be able to get into the base to see whether or not he has taken his gas. From here it is important to find his depot, if he has started one. If you see him start a depot before his marine is out, that means he has not started a 2nd rax on 16, which means you can rule out the 5 marines +1 marauder push.
- If you scout a no gas opener, you cannot assume 1rax CC until you in fact see the CC. Check the edges of his base for additional barracks. Refer to the Floating 3 Rax section below which details a couple of responses.
From here, you will begin to make some deviations:
If you scout gas, or cannot scout gas, proceed as follows:
+ Show Spoiler +- 9 Pylon (scout)
- 11 2 CB on nexus, consecutively
- 16 Nexus
- 16 Gateway
- 17 Pylon
- 18 Gas*
- 20 Zealot (CB'd)
- 22 Cybernetics core
~Probes cut as needed to sustain 100% production on 2 gateways~
- 22 Gateway(2)
- 25 Zealot (2) (CB'd)
- 27 Stalker + WG (both CB'd)
Continue adding stalkers and pylons as needed. If you see the 2rax pressure coming, continue making zealots and stalkers out of 2 gates off of one gas. The 5 marine 1 marauder will leave a little before 5:30, so make sure you have a unit to spot it at this time. If you see marauders and marines but he does not hit you immediately, he might be teching to medivacs. You can sustain 2 gateways of production and eventually afford a 3rd gate and a robotics from here. You won't be able to maintain constant probe production, but your economy will still be strong against his one base mules.
On the other hand, if you were able to spot a lack of gas or a 1 rax cc, or even a cc first, proceed as follows:
+ Show Spoiler +- 9 Pylon (scout)
- 11 2 CB on nexus, consecutively
- 16 Nexus
- 16 Gateway
- 17 Pylon
- 18 Gas*
- 20 Zealot (CB'd)
- 22 Cybernetics core
~Probe production maintained~
- 25 Zealot (2) (CB'd)
- @100% 2nd zealot - 1st Stalker (CB'd)
- Pylon
- @100% 1st stalker - 2nd Stalker (CB'd)
- Continued stalker production off of one gate
- Gases 2 and 3
- Robotics + Gateways 2+3
Alternatively, you may opt for pure gateways to do some pressure off of two bases. The above opening is designed to be more economical and move into heavy macro mode, either with double forge or colossus drop follow ups. With your 2 zealots and 1 stalker, you may move out. If they did not start a bunker, it is possible to do some damage to marines or scvs with a little bit of micro.
Common Terran follow ups when gas is taken
1;1;1
It is important to make use of all of the information at hand. You will be moving out of the 2 gate opener above, so your robotics will not come as quickly as it would with the 1 gate opener. You need to identify the type of push Terran is concocting. If you see siege tanks, I recommend using 3 gases and moving into colossus production with range as fast as humanly possible. So long as you maintain a high enough stalker account to deal with the banshees (use the 2 stalkers/banshee rule of thumb here) and have a colossus out or almost out when the push is coming, the Terran will be hard pressed to force an engagement, which is what he wants to do as soon as he can. Use your range colossus to pick off tanks that encroach too far, bunkers that are too bold, and marines that stray from the pack. Your stalkers will be backed up, only venturing forth to deny banshees from taking pot shots on your colossus. Your zealots and a sentry or 2 will be off to the side. You can so sit until your natural is mined out if he is unable to force an engage. The key here is patience.+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
2 Rax pressure
This push will be easier to read because you can confirm exactly what it is as he is moving out. He will have a marauder and 5 marines, if it is the reactor-1st variety. As mentioned earlier, this will be down his ramp by 5:30 with a marauder and some marines. The second barracks might be proxied somewhere, so don't assume it is not a 2 rax just because you don't count 5 marines. You will have 2 zealots and a stalker when this hits, which is not a very good fight for you, especially if he is pulling SCVs. You will need to use probes to fight. The way you do this is you hotkey a group of probes, I'd recommend 10-15 of them at the least, and make them mineral walk to your 3rd base. When your units are engaging them, give the probes the attack command once they are around the marines. Mineral walking helps you get a surround and also removes their attack priority until they are actually attacking.+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
I've faced another variant, this one with 2 barracks with tech labs. This one is not as strong, as marines are much scarier when you have pulled probes effectively. In this replay, Terran follows up with a hellion-marine-marauder-scv-medivac timing with stim. If you are aware that hellions will be in the mix, do your best to simcity your main somewhat to mitigate hellion drops. And always engage in a favorable location.
+ Show Spoiler +
Marauder or Reaper Expand
This opener will play out like the below ones, but you need to play the safer opener because you will not always know if your opponent has started his CC.
Common Terran follow ups to 1 rax CC
Fast third command center
Terran is going to want to out greed you here. Because I have been responding to fe builds with colossus drop, this Terran response is not very strong. You can scout the 3rd CC opener with your Obs scout. If he hasn't left his base with the CC, you'll simply see it. But if his natural is lacking in saturation and/or there are no mules there, it is because he is muling up his 3rd base.+ Show Spoiler + So go find it. Here are two replays; one with a mech follow-up, which turns into a pretty sick game. the other transitions into bio per standard.
+ Show Spoiler +
4-5 Barracks Marines before gas
This opener has caught on quickly. If your opponent has opened 1rax cc, there's no reason not to keep 3 or more stalkers outside of his natural ramp until it is late enough for stim to have finished or medivacs to be out. It's in your best interest to kite these marines across the map as well as you can and put off taking real damage from them until absolutely necessary.
+ Show Spoiler +
Shakuras- 3 Bunker block
You can block this with a pylon at the natural, but I don't like to have that pylon so exposed in case of a different all-in. You'll have zealots when the bunkers go up (which you could use to block the bunkers if you are so vigilant), so simply attack the scvs whenever possible and ignore the marine(s) shooting you until you are on the verge of losing one. Only pull probes if the bunkers have a chance at going up. This by no means should end the game. From here, your opponent may transition into any of the other builds here.
+ Show Spoiler +
2 Gas after CC -> 3 rax before factory bio
This seems to be the standard. Some of them get quick stim, others do not. Either way, you can deal with the pokes that come off of 2 bases with gateway units so long as your forcefields are good enough, as we're only playing this out and maps that allow you to do so.
+ Show Spoiler +
Wild card openers
These openers don't quite fit into the above categories.
Floating 3 Rax SCV + Marine All-in
+ Show Spoiler +You will need to scout this in order to change your build accordingly. If you scout no gas, you cannot assume 1rax fe; you must check his base for building barracks if you are able to get inside. If you cannot get inside, you will need to scout where the barracks would land. Even if you scout last, you will be able to change your build in time. Follow this: 9 pylon, scout 16 nexus 17 gate 17 pylon 18 gas (floating rax spotted) 18 gate 18 zealot 20 core this will net you 3 zealots at 5:05, which is before his first 5 marines will be at your natural. Your first stalker will be out at 5:20, followed by a second at 5:35. You will have: 3 zealots 2 stalkers and 22 probes at 5:35. It might be in your best interest to only mine gas with 2 probes. This will enable you to have 4z2s + 24probes at 5:48 and 6z2s at 6:15. Terran cannot force an engage with probes until the 2nd wave of SCVs hits a little after 6:00. Ultimately, you're either looking at: 6 Zealots, 2 Stalkers, and 26 Probes vs.11 Marines and 17 or 18 SCVs, depending on if he lost his scout SCV or 3 Zealots, 4 stalkers and 24 Probes vs 11 Marines and 17-18 SCVs if every SCV is pulled. I think both are close but winnable battles, given a good probe pull with mineral walk. It is also very likely some of the marines and scvs will be softened up before the terran can force you to engage thanks to your stalkers. Cannon alternative response: Assuming no fixed spawns, and thus a 9 scout. As stated above, you can scout last and find the floating raxes at 18-19 food. The placement of your 2nd pylon by your Nexus is a blind choice, not based on scouting whatsoever. I don't think this bad practice, anyway. Disclaimer: this might sound insane 9 pylon, scout 16 nexus 16 Gateway 17 Pylon (low ground hugging the nexus like this + Show Spoiler +18 Gas (18-19 floating raxes are spotted at the last scouted + Show Spoiler +location ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-3104_34_09.jpg) ) 19 Forge 20 Zealot 22 Core 22 Zealot (2) 24 Cannon (placed to minimize surface area from SCVs) When the 5 marines arrive, they will see this: + Show Spoiler +When the second wave of SCVs arrives, at which point he needs to engage you, he will be up against this: + Show Spoiler +To ensure the 2nd cannon will be up in time for the second wave of SCVs, you must start it no later than 5:15. 2 Cannons, 2 Stalkers, 2 Zealots and 24 Probes vs 11 Marines, 18 SCVs I don't think this is at all winnable for him. At this point, you can support 2 gateways of chronoboosted stalkers and he is capped at 35 supply with only a single mule for income. He cannot even deny mining at your natural nor try to focus it down outside of cannon range. The cannons negate SCVs attacking entirely, and your stalkers can outrange his marines if he tries to avoid cannon fire in any way. Some possible issues- The best course of action for Terran might be to try to drill up the ramp. I don't think would be too troublesome, however, as this exposes his marines to cannon fire and whatever units/probes you have defending as they try to move up the ramp. It's impossible to deny scouting of the forge. However, at this point, his 2nd rax has already finished. Even if he cancels his 3rd rax upon seeing the forge, your nexus is done before he starts 2nd CC if he calls off the rush, and the first 50 energy from his orbital is wasted. This is assuming he scouts you first. If he doesn't scout you first after the completion of his first rax, his 3rd barracks will be finished by the time he can spot your forge, and at that point he is entirely committed to the rush
SCV + Marine push into dual port all-in
The name on this replay should make sense to you. Probe pull is essential, obviously.
+ Show Spoiler +
5 Rax Reaper
+ Show Spoiler +
Protoss preferred followups
I have used double forge, robo/twilight, and fast colossus transitions into the mid game off of nexus first builds against Terran FE builds. But the one middle game transition that I have found to be the best one is the speed colossus drop. None of the common Terran openers deal with this style very well. While he can get vikings and turrets, nothing will ever catch up the speed WP. Against fast 3rd CC builds, his starport tech is delayed for quite some time so vikings will be slower to come out. If he has landed his third, there is no way for him to defend all three of his bases with bio units, and covering all of them with multiple turrets is costly and not effective at all once your colossus gets range. 4 rax before gas also delays its starport tech, and his marine force is manageable with just gateway units from 3 gateways. 2 gas after cc into 3 rax bio pushes are stronger, but can be dealt with using forcefields on the maps we are playing this out on. I largely consider 16 nex to have a very great edge over 1 rax CC and CC first because the speed WP colossus style exists.
Unexplored territory, and how you will lose opening 16 Nexus
Unfortunately, I have not faced enough 1 base 4-5 rax marine-scv all-ins to claim that I have done enough testing to shore the build up completely. However, I have won against most I have faced with the initial zealot(s) and a substantial probe pull. It is very easy to be tricked, however. A 1rax build with no gas will look exactly like a 1rax cc but could just as easily contain additional rax instead. Once you have scouted a lack of gas, there is no need for you to stay within the natural expansion, just to wait for the marine to chase you away. Start checking towers and the edge off of your opponent's base for proxies. You never know what you may find.
If you use this build on ladder and exclusively on the maps I have specified, you will still lose some games stupidly. It can be difficult to know exactly the best response with limited information, especially when you cannot get inside of your opponent's base. This is somehow mitigated by the 9 scout, but you still might be denied valuable information if you scout your opponent last or he has walled it by placing an early depot to finish later.
Against 1;1;1 pushes, it is very easy to lose because the limitations of your information might have led you to play a safer opener, and thus delay your robo somewhat. This will stop you from powering up --probing up to ~40 and adding infrastructure for 5gate/immortal or 4 or 5gate/colossus-- in a way that lets you deal with it effectively. Some variants of the 1;1;1 will include marine drops, hellion drops, and hellion run by`s. You should have pylons on the edges of your base, as hellion drops are much more easily mitigated if you see them happening. If you have a probe below their ramp, their is no need to have all of your units in a clump by your natural. Spread your stalkers out around your base to fend off banshees and drop harassment. You may even create a partial wall off at your ramp with a pylon and a 3x2 structure and keep a unit on hold position to block flow between the bases if you please.
Against bio pushes, it is easy to mess up the engage by forcefielding incorrectly and from there lose immediately. However, I really only have experience with transitioning into colossus drops, so if you choose a safer transition this might not be an issue for you at all.
Here's a replay bank. These are just the ones in the spoilers above.
+ Show Spoiler +
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could not tell you why the links are behaving so
Thanks for the read. Please leave your comments/replays/questions/suggestions here!
-aLeJ
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Very good input here, thank you for the detail in regards to Terran responses and corresponding Protoss counters. Your guides are always very detailed and accompanied with many replays.
Thanks Alejandrisha!
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marine scv all-ins are definitely not the hard ones to beat. Just wait until you start playing against solid marauder hellion openers (fast reactored factory) or some perfectly timed marauder pressures with expos behind them and a few scvs pulled. Usually ones that come about 40 seconds before warpgate is done are the most threatening. But again, easy easy easy to stop all marine scv all-ins if you have competent probe micro. Btw, I don't feel this is safe on shakuras unless you pylon scout and see that they did not spawn close air, because reaper first close air (although rare and must be conducted as a blind choice by the T) with a toddler microing will just build order win.
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On January 30 2012 13:28 CCalms wrote:
marine scv all-ins are definitely not the hard ones to beat. Just wait until you start playing against solid marauder hellion openers (fast reactored factory) or some perfectly timed marauder pressures with expos behind them and a few scvs pulled. Usually ones that come about 40 seconds before warpgate is done are the most threatening. But again, easy easy easy to stop all marine scv all-ins if you have competent probe micro. Btw, I don't feel this is safe on shakuras unless you pylon scout and see that they did not spawn close air, because reaper first close air (although rare and must be conducted as a blind choice by the T) with a toddler microing will just build order win.
pylon scout is part of the build
marine pushes are stronger against probe pulls than are marauder pushes
there is such a marauder replay in the op
a reaper does not build order win. you will know a reaper expand before it happens, as if he has walled, his rax will be part of the wall if you can't get in. you will see the tech lab. you will see that it's not researching shells. rally both nexuses to your main mineral line. buy time with 3-4 probe pulls to push the reaper to ledge. your zealot can zone it out very easily afterward
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Why do you not like this build on TDA?
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On January 30 2012 13:41 Acritter wrote:
Why do you not like this build on TDA?
I like it there better than I do on the maps I didn't mention in the op. I suppose the nat is safe enough, though. Rarely will a terran take the time to take the alternative route to your nat. I haven't really tried it there so much because I have it vetoed, so I probably just overlooked it as a possibility. thanks for pointing this out!
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On January 30 2012 13:44 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:41 Acritter wrote:
Why do you not like this build on TDA? I like it there better than I do on the maps I didn't mention in the op. I suppose the nat is safe enough, though. Rarely will a terran take the time to take the alternative route to your nat. I haven't really tried it there so much because I have it vetoed, so I probably just overlooked it as a possibility. thanks for pointing this out!
It's because I usually go for a Nexus first build on the map, and like it. TDA happens to be one of my favorite maps, so I'm not surprised we have such different opinions on this (yes, even PvP. The occasional 4gate is refreshing).
The reason Nexus first is so good on TDA in my opinion is the stupidly long rush distances. Generally, by the time the Terran gets to your base, it's too late to all-in. Even if they do, the all-in will hit really late and can be scouted long before it hits. Also, it has a nicely placed ramp that can really help you defend attacks from the clockwise position, and a Probe can scout attacks coming in from the 3rd easily.
Oh, and the best part about it is that so many Terrans go for either gasless FE or the 1-1-1 on that map. Early Rax timings are exceedingly rare. The occasional Reaper play will be annoying, though.
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If you watch MC play, he almost never get the 2nd gate when he nexus first. The reason is the chrono out 2 zealots to hold vs bunker and 2 stalkers to kite marines. Once thats out everything go into warp tech and he could put the 4 gates out if thats a 3 rax marines all-in.
This is totally opposite to white-ra play where he rely on 2 rax before cyber to hold off any sort of pressure. The MC's way is more rely on stalkers kiting micro vs marine SCV than pure zealot. Also MC way let you have a much bigger room to wiggle around for macro follow up such as robo off 1 gate or straight up blink rush.
Overall i think it depends on how skill you are in micro your early units vs all-in so a 16 nex could success and often intime its a huge risk for anything below top top gm. Map also help a bit but yeah...
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On January 30 2012 14:05 NB wrote:
If you watch MC play, he almost never get the 2nd gate when he nexus first. The reason is the chrono out 2 zealots to hold vs bunker and 2 stalkers to kite marines. Once thats out everything go into warp tech and he could put the 4 gates out if thats a 3 rax marines all-in.
This is totally opposite to white-ra play where he rely on 2 rax before cyber to hold off any sort of pressure. The MC's way is more rely on stalkers kiting micro vs marine SCV than pure zealot. Also MC way let you have a much bigger room to wiggle around for macro follow up such as robo off 1 gate or straight up blink rush.
Overall i think it depends on how skill you are in micro your early units vs all-in so a 16 nex could success and often intime its a huge risk for anything below top top gm. Map also help a bit but yeah...
was this on MC's stream or from events? i'd like to check this out. it's hard to find content on 16 nexus but I really want to figure it out!
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MC vs cloud (or namaa) HSC i think... a lot of top P using this style like hero or ddoro.
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How does a build like this hold up to 2 rax reaper with bunkers? I have played the nexus first many times and one of the only things that really punishes me hard when I nexus first is a reaper expand that, upon scouting me, turns into a 2rax reaper push with bunkers.
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i nexus first every PvT i play and there was one all in that i dealt with once which i had no answer to. It is the gas first into reactor helion followed by a helion rush then into a helion/marauder/scv (5 or 6) timing atk. What do you think is a good asnwer to that?
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On January 30 2012 13:32 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:28 CCalms wrote:
marine scv all-ins are definitely not the hard ones to beat. Just wait until you start playing against solid marauder hellion openers (fast reactored factory) or some perfectly timed marauder pressures with expos behind them and a few scvs pulled. Usually ones that come about 40 seconds before warpgate is done are the most threatening. But again, easy easy easy to stop all marine scv all-ins if you have competent probe micro. Btw, I don't feel this is safe on shakuras unless you pylon scout and see that they did not spawn close air, because reaper first close air (although rare and must be conducted as a blind choice by the T) with a toddler microing will just build order win. pylon scout is part of the build marine pushes are stronger against probe pulls than are marauder pushes there is such a marauder replay in the op a reaper does not build order win. you will know a reaper expand before it happens, as if he has walled, his rax will be part of the wall if you can't get in. you will see the tech lab. you will see that it's not researching shells. rally both nexuses to your main mineral line. buy time with 3-4 probe pulls to push the reaper to ledge. your zealot can zone it out very easily afterward
How do u beat the marauder helion allin tht Keen used to beat Huk twice in the GSL? I haven't really seen it on ladder so i have no experience against it, but it seemed almost impossible to stop watching those Huk games.
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On January 30 2012 15:30 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:32 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 30 2012 13:28 CCalms wrote:
marine scv all-ins are definitely not the hard ones to beat. Just wait until you start playing against solid marauder hellion openers (fast reactored factory) or some perfectly timed marauder pressures with expos behind them and a few scvs pulled. Usually ones that come about 40 seconds before warpgate is done are the most threatening. But again, easy easy easy to stop all marine scv all-ins if you have competent probe micro. Btw, I don't feel this is safe on shakuras unless you pylon scout and see that they did not spawn close air, because reaper first close air (although rare and must be conducted as a blind choice by the T) with a toddler microing will just build order win. pylon scout is part of the build marine pushes are stronger against probe pulls than are marauder pushes there is such a marauder replay in the op a reaper does not build order win. you will know a reaper expand before it happens, as if he has walled, his rax will be part of the wall if you can't get in. you will see the tech lab. you will see that it's not researching shells. rally both nexuses to your main mineral line. buy time with 3-4 probe pulls to push the reaper to ledge. your zealot can zone it out very easily afterward How do u beat the marauder helion allin tht Keen used to beat Huk twice in the GSL? I haven't really seen it on ladder so i have no experience against it, but it seemed almost impossible to stop watching those Huk games.
can you link me? i vaguely remember one of them was on dual site. huk didn't nexus first there, but 1g fe. the push is much more managable when you have a secondary ramp
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On January 30 2012 15:30 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:32 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 30 2012 13:28 CCalms wrote:
marine scv all-ins are definitely not the hard ones to beat. Just wait until you start playing against solid marauder hellion openers (fast reactored factory) or some perfectly timed marauder pressures with expos behind them and a few scvs pulled. Usually ones that come about 40 seconds before warpgate is done are the most threatening. But again, easy easy easy to stop all marine scv all-ins if you have competent probe micro. Btw, I don't feel this is safe on shakuras unless you pylon scout and see that they did not spawn close air, because reaper first close air (although rare and must be conducted as a blind choice by the T) with a toddler microing will just build order win. pylon scout is part of the build marine pushes are stronger against probe pulls than are marauder pushes there is such a marauder replay in the op a reaper does not build order win. you will know a reaper expand before it happens, as if he has walled, his rax will be part of the wall if you can't get in. you will see the tech lab. you will see that it's not researching shells. rally both nexuses to your main mineral line. buy time with 3-4 probe pulls to push the reaper to ledge. your zealot can zone it out very easily afterward How do u beat the marauder helion allin tht Keen used to beat Huk twice in the GSL? I haven't really seen it on ladder so i have no experience against it, but it seemed almost impossible to stop watching those Huk games.
most of the time dealling with hellions marauder u have to give up your nexus
that or scout it early, wall off with forge and cannon up if u have high ground like shakuras. but yeah map without nature high ground u have to give up ur expansion
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On January 30 2012 16:10 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 15:30 blooblooblahblah wrote:On January 30 2012 13:32 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 30 2012 13:28 CCalms wrote:
marine scv all-ins are definitely not the hard ones to beat. Just wait until you start playing against solid marauder hellion openers (fast reactored factory) or some perfectly timed marauder pressures with expos behind them and a few scvs pulled. Usually ones that come about 40 seconds before warpgate is done are the most threatening. But again, easy easy easy to stop all marine scv all-ins if you have competent probe micro. Btw, I don't feel this is safe on shakuras unless you pylon scout and see that they did not spawn close air, because reaper first close air (although rare and must be conducted as a blind choice by the T) with a toddler microing will just build order win. pylon scout is part of the build marine pushes are stronger against probe pulls than are marauder pushes there is such a marauder replay in the op a reaper does not build order win. you will know a reaper expand before it happens, as if he has walled, his rax will be part of the wall if you can't get in. you will see the tech lab. you will see that it's not researching shells. rally both nexuses to your main mineral line. buy time with 3-4 probe pulls to push the reaper to ledge. your zealot can zone it out very easily afterward How do u beat the marauder helion allin tht Keen used to beat Huk twice in the GSL? I haven't really seen it on ladder so i have no experience against it, but it seemed almost impossible to stop watching those Huk games. most of the time dealling with hellions marauder u have to give up your nexus that or scout it early, wall off with forge and cannon up if u have high ground like shakuras. but yeah map without nature high ground u have to give up ur expansion
thankfully i don't nexus first on maps with no high ground expo :D
really, if you nexus first on a map where the natural does not have a ramp, you have to spend so much more on sentries that it is not even worth it to expand so quickly because if you don't invest all the extra gas you would get because of your expansion, you just die.
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Small disclaimer: some of the below is copy/pasted from a post I made on my blog a while ago, so I apologise if some bits seem weird or look like an OP comment, edited as much as I could to fit properly 
Love a good early nexus, here's a colo-drop follow up game I played recently. http://drop.sc/96247
Had to deal with some pressure early on - one thing people need to remember is to keep calm. You don't always lose the nexus
Here's another with another colo-drop, game went on for a while but I massively mismicro'd and raged a bit (to myself); http://drop.sc/95656
15/16nexus is much like the SCBW version back in the old days (which was my favourite build) - whereby you have a timing window where if you so choose - you can put out a huge gateway timing with 6 gates that comes slightly earlier than a normal 6 gate. I think it's at around... 13 minute game-time or so? I can't remember exactly, I'm terrible at looking at the clock when I play, so when I do it I dont' know exactly.
Bearing in mind if your T opponent has gone for a few siege tanks, gateway doesn't always cut it.
Another possible followup is to do a few drops, possibly with colossus if you're daring - of course you can double forge behind it too which is fun.
As for scouting info just like in SCBW doing a 13nexus, these are the main threats however there are a couple which can also hurt:
Fast cloak banshee, or possibly a 2port cloak banshee - because (if you're playing "safe" - getting a few gates after the nat-nexus before you get the robo started - your obs can be slightly behind where it normally would be. So scouting to find how much gas the Terran has gathered and if he went gas-rax is very very useful. Just be mindful of that, if you see that a lot of gas has been taken, get the robo up quicker, possibly 2gate robo (after nex) or even a 1gate robo (after nex) if you're feeling a little more daring and confident
Along with the above, we saw in GSL that hellions can also be a little bit of trouble, depending on how you go about your build. I believe it was Huk vs Keen? Huk went 16nex on Antiga, and Taejja did one of the most beautiful counters I have seen, I believe it had a reaper at the start, then into marauder and hellion-drop. Again, you need to scout the gas, along with the techlab at the start. As for countering the way Taejja demolished Huk... I'm not actually sure, I'd have to watch it again.
My general thoughts: There are some maps where 16nex will almost win you a game if you play smoothly and efficiently, whether it be through a large gateway timing, or fast tech (col/temp/2forge). Favourites being Tal'Darim, Entombed and possibly Antiga, but I don't like that one. "Middle of the road" 15nex maps for me are: Metalopolis (this can be very dangerous sometimes with close "air(ground)" spots), Shakuras (this can also be dangerous, just not a huge fan of it here for some reason...), and Shattered Temple (same as Metalopolis). "I wouldn't" 15nex maps for me are: Arid (lol terrible map), Xel'Naga (too small/wide)
The key to it is just getting AS MUCH scouting info as you can at the start, particularly gas - and trying to be wary of SCV's near you. If they sneak a bunker in and you don't even see it until it's done/marines are in, you can be in a lot of trouble.
Speaking of which, a lot of people seem to think that when the Nexus dies to a bunker or whatever, that it's GG. This is simply not the case. In BW if you lost the Nexus but kept producing probes, and didn't lose any/too many fighting units, you're still doing ok, mainly because the Terran has to sacrifice some SCV's/mining/early tech to get the bunker done. If you make an extra 5-10 probes that get rallied to your main (just a guess at probe numbers) then you'll be up in that regard, and once you re-secure the nat, you'll be in good shape. In SC2 this is taken even further given that you get some extra chronoboost. The key to dealing with a bunker-rush is just the same as a Zerg dealing with it - don't panic, don't overreact, calmly look at what you're dealing with and evaluate if you can deflect it, or if you're just going to have to take a hit and lose the nexus. Unlike Zerg however, the game isn't in an "oh shit" position if you lose the nat. Just... unfortunate.
I'm not a massively high-level player nor am I "lord-of-16nex" - I just do it a lot, and did 13nex in BW a LOT, and this is essentially my whole entire thought codex on the strat :D
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wow thank you for your post, duckville. i'd never 16 nex on metal or shattered. it's just too easy to die to bio timings because your ffs are just not as energy efficient as they are on the maps i have specified. your input is greatly appreciated! thank you!
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Great guide as always alej. Have you ever tried beating a 111 by just building 7-8 gates after you scout with your obs and then completely overpowering the 111? Because I basically never lose to that push, I find that this build pretty much hard counters it as long as you don't try to get too clever.
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Can it survive 2 raxx marauder pressure?
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On January 30 2012 17:54 thezanursic wrote:
Can it survive 2 raxx marauder pressure?
Yea cb stalker/zealot and pull probes as needed.
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On January 30 2012 17:54 thezanursic wrote:
Can it survive 2 raxx marauder pressure?
Yes it can, which you would know if you read the section on 2 rax... Marauder only two rax is is significantly easier than one tech lab one reactor version, because marauders are pretty terrible against zealots.
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On January 30 2012 17:44 Surili wrote:
Great guide as always alej. Have you ever tried beating a 111 by just building 7-8 gates after you scout with your obs and then completely overpowering the 111? Because I basically never lose to that push, I find that this build pretty much hard counters it as long as you don't try to get too clever.
Also, I feel this is the most newbie friendly way of dealing with 111 off of a fast expand. I've coached gold league players beating diamond level 111s through this because all the micro that is required is a line of ffs through the middle of the marines and tanks and then pulling back when that half is dead, then wait for next warp in and go again. There are other, more effective ways of doing it, my personal favourite is immortal drop on tanks, but this is probably the easiest in my opinion.
Ps sorry about the double post!
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How much experience does everyone have vs marine/tank/scv pushes when going Nexus first? I used to go Nexus first very often on the ladder often and the only reactive Terran build that gave me serious trouble was a marine/tank/scv push because it got there just a little before warpgate came online. I'd hold 3 rax and 2 rax builds, even with scvs, because your warpgates come online during the fight and give you the re-enforcements burst you need. But against marine/tank pushes the Terran is all sieged and bunkered up once warpgate comes online.
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The 2 builds that give me trouble when I 16 nexus are:
- fast helions harass (like: really, really fast helions.. ), followed up by marauders pressure
- 2 rax tech-lab ( one proxied ) into pure marauders -> this one I just have no idea how to handle. It soon reaches a critical mass that you can't handle anymore  Terran will kite and run back if you pull probes, his little marauder army will snowball into something you can't manage even after warp is done..
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I did a nexus first build today and I didn't get any 2 rax pressure at the 5-6 min mark. Instead, it was 3 rax at the 7-8 min mark and I couldn't hold it with just the units I had. He just stimmed his way up the ramp.
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You are the best guidewriter out there! I'm sure i'll love it
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On January 30 2012 19:41 Sated wrote:
Having watched Axslav do his Nexus-first build a lot (his stream is amazing for anyone looking to learn this opening, because he does it in a lot of his PvT ladder games), I usually forgo the 9 Probe scout and instead scout with the Probe that builds the Nexus on 15 supply. I want to get my Nexus/Gateway down as fast as possible when using this build because once you've committed to going for the Nexus-first, you might as well get as much of an economic advantage out of it as possible. It's always possible that the Terran will have blocked you out of their base by the time you get their on a 4-player map, so scouting on 9 is a risk that I don't think is worth it when you're going for this build.
From that point on, it's just a case of whether or not you're going to be able to scout a Marauder or a Tech-Lab on their first Barracks because the only thing that scares me when doing this build is getting a Robo up in time if they go for Cloaked Banshees: I'll usually throw a Robo down around 5:30 if I haven't seen a Marauder/Reaper/Tech-Lab by then. It's true that you can lose to some dumb things like 2rax pressure when you do this build, but with good unit control you should have no trouble defend Barracks pressure if you chrono-boost units out of a single Gateway and pull an appropriate number of Probes.
To be honest, my main problem with this build isn't early aggression from the Terran, it's my own over-commitment to 6/7-gate pressure - but over-committing against Terran is my problem in PvT no matter what build I go for >.<;
I am not a fan of gw timings off of this opener. check any of the replays and you will see how I go about applying pressure while still moving forward in tech/macro
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On January 30 2012 22:07 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 22:03 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 30 2012 19:41 Sated wrote:
Having watched Axslav do his Nexus-first build a lot (his stream is amazing for anyone looking to learn this opening, because he does it in a lot of his PvT ladder games), I usually forgo the 9 Probe scout and instead scout with the Probe that builds the Nexus on 15 supply. I want to get my Nexus/Gateway down as fast as possible when using this build because once you've committed to going for the Nexus-first, you might as well get as much of an economic advantage out of it as possible. It's always possible that the Terran will have blocked you out of their base by the time you get their on a 4-player map, so scouting on 9 is a risk that I don't think is worth it when you're going for this build.
From that point on, it's just a case of whether or not you're going to be able to scout a Marauder or a Tech-Lab on their first Barracks because the only thing that scares me when doing this build is getting a Robo up in time if they go for Cloaked Banshees: I'll usually throw a Robo down around 5:30 if I haven't seen a Marauder/Reaper/Tech-Lab by then. It's true that you can lose to some dumb things like 2rax pressure when you do this build, but with good unit control you should have no trouble defend Barracks pressure if you chrono-boost units out of a single Gateway and pull an appropriate number of Probes.
To be honest, my main problem with this build isn't early aggression from the Terran, it's my own over-commitment to 6/7-gate pressure - but over-committing against Terran is my problem in PvT no matter what build I go for >.<; I am not a fan of gw timings off of this opener. check any of the replays and you will see how I go about applying pressure while still moving forward in tech/macro I plan on doing so when I have a chance, but it's a problem with my own mindset more than anything else. I've seen Axslav do this build hundreds of times and continue the game normally but, after seeing a Nexus first -> 7gate bust against Nada in GSL (I think it was Parting), I've become a little over-zealous (heh) in PvT. Bad mindset 
here's a new mindset for you to adopt:
in a lot of games I play with this style, the terran does not leave after he has lost an engagement or lost a lot of workers. they leave as i completely stop all of their mining and prevent them from making trades that are anywhere close to beneficial :D
sometimes they leave when I don't even realize the game is "over"
who cares if the game is 30+ mins long if you have a 100% chance of winning?
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
On January 30 2012 15:46 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 15:30 blooblooblahblah wrote:On January 30 2012 13:32 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 30 2012 13:28 CCalms wrote:
marine scv all-ins are definitely not the hard ones to beat. Just wait until you start playing against solid marauder hellion openers (fast reactored factory) or some perfectly timed marauder pressures with expos behind them and a few scvs pulled. Usually ones that come about 40 seconds before warpgate is done are the most threatening. But again, easy easy easy to stop all marine scv all-ins if you have competent probe micro. Btw, I don't feel this is safe on shakuras unless you pylon scout and see that they did not spawn close air, because reaper first close air (although rare and must be conducted as a blind choice by the T) with a toddler microing will just build order win. pylon scout is part of the build marine pushes are stronger against probe pulls than are marauder pushes there is such a marauder replay in the op a reaper does not build order win. you will know a reaper expand before it happens, as if he has walled, his rax will be part of the wall if you can't get in. you will see the tech lab. you will see that it's not researching shells. rally both nexuses to your main mineral line. buy time with 3-4 probe pulls to push the reaper to ledge. your zealot can zone it out very easily afterward How do u beat the marauder helion allin tht Keen used to beat Huk twice in the GSL? I haven't really seen it on ladder so i have no experience against it, but it seemed almost impossible to stop watching those Huk games. can you link me? i vaguely remember one of them was on dual site. huk didn't nexus first there, but 1g fe. the push is much more managable when you have a secondary ramp
I don't think so, I think he Nexus first twice. I'm somewhat sure of this because he lost the 2nd game in almost identical fashion to the 1st, and at the time it seemed a very dumb thing to do.
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hi, i use this build literally every game vs T on ladder or playhem game vs pro players. I am rank 50ish on GM with high win lose ratio and as much as i love this build and although i have beaten many players with it like mouz marco and more, it does not work 100% vs top players who open gas first. I practice with illusion and other top T players and have played top notch players such as rainbow. Let me tell you, i open differently and always open with 2 gates after nexus, and gas first then pylon, reason for this is to get 2 stalkers out of your 2 gates asap as soon as core is done and u are able to afford warp as well. The problem is you can lose to proxy raxes like rainbow did it to me or any sort of 1 base they do (fast banshee into marines/tank etc and bring scvs). I have replays if you are interested.
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On January 31 2012 00:12 YaTa wrote:
hi, i use this build literally every game vs T on ladder or playhem game vs pro players. I am rank 50ish on GM with high win lose ratio and as much as i love this build and although i have beaten many players with it like mouz marco and more, it does not work 100% vs top players who open gas first. I practice with illusion and other top T players and have played top notch players such as rainbow. Let me tell you, i open differently and always open with 2 gates after nexus, and gas first then pylon, reason for this is to get 2 stalkers out of your 2 gates asap as soon as core is done and u are able to afford warp as well. The problem is you can lose to proxy raxes like rainbow did it to me or any sort of 1 base they do (fast banshee into marines/tank etc and bring scvs). I have replays if you are interested.
sure id be happy to take a look
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I wonder, how far is 16 nexus with 9 scout ahead against a fast cyber 20 nexus build?
Personally I just always go 20 nexus instead of 16 nexus because I think the economy is nearly equal (you can scout later, don't have to probe patrol, not have to probe cut etc which makes up a large part of the later nexus) and the stalker / warpgate is out much faster. Some aggresive openings are just really hard to hold with 16 nex and you don't really have the time to respond to them often with 16 nex. Fast cyber builds commit to the greedy eco later so you at least have a window to respond to stuff like 3 rax no gas pressure.
Only map I like 16 nex is tal darim as I feel the others are just too small and especially some bunker spots between natural and the geyser can be abused too easily, even if you just patrol with 1 probe they can sometimes get up a bunker if the scv takes a lucky path while building.
It's a good build but I just feel the overall trouble you have to go through to make this work doesn't really put this ahead of 20 nex Sase style which is also a build that can pressure quicker if you want too. Perhaps I'll do a test when I get around to it but I think 16 nex is only a probe or two at most ahead of 20 nex while having to waste more resources on stuff like probe patrolling.
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United States8476 Posts
Proxy 2 rax is pretty much the blind counter ^^. Check it out in this game:
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66529
Also, how do you defend 1 rax into 4/5 rax marine/scvs all-in without a cc or the 3 rax supply drop allin? Major told me that it's impossible to defend if you only get 1 gateway as you suggest vs no gas, but I don't 16 nex first much and have never tested this. I'm also not even sure if the 3 rax supply drop is defendable, although it's a blind counter.
Here's an example:
http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/vod/66694/?set=6&lang=
Also, perhaps considering linking pro games, especially games where the 16 nex player defends certain pressures.
I'd also like to echo the sentiment that marauder/hellion seems very hard to stop. I've witnessed this in the GSL at least twice, but don't remember exactly what games they were.
Also, what about putting your 2nd pylon in your natural to spot for bunker? I've seen this very commonly too.
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On January 31 2012 03:34 NrGmonk wrote:Proxy 2 rax is pretty much the blind counter ^^. Check it out in this game: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66529Also, how do you defend 1 rax into 4/5 rax marine/scvs all-in without a cc or the 3 rax supply drop allin? Major told me that it's impossible to defend if you only get 1 gateway as you suggest vs no gas, but I don't 16 nex first much and have never tested this. I'm also not even sure if the 3 rax supply drop is defendable, although it's a blind counter. Here's an example: http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/vod/66694/?set=6&lang=Also, perhaps considering linking pro games, especially games where the 16 nex player defends certain pressures. I'd also like to echo the sentiment that marauder/hellion seems very hard to stop. I've witnessed this in the GSL at least twice, but don't remember exactly what games they were. Also, what about putting your 2nd pylon in your natural to spot for bunker? I've seen this very commonly too.
Proxy rax tactics and/or no gas marine all-ins are a big reason for me not to go 16 nexus on the smaller maps or those with limited spawns. Just too much risk for what you get in return I think.
It might be possible to stop some of those all-ins with a wall-off though on maps with a ramp. I haven't gotten to testing it too much yet but if you make your first gate and cyber near the ramp in such a way that a 2nd gate can completely block it off you could sac the nexus and defend your main against all-in marine strats. If they pull scv's and you lose the nexus you can probably be ahead and a few stalkers behind a wall can hold of a lot of marines as they can't pick off the wall without being shot when there is a ramp. Perhaps worth experimenting with such a setup just in case as it's good to have to the gateway close to the ramp anyway.
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Great guide - I've been reading the thread on Axslav's variant recently, which makes an excellent supplement to this as far as how to react to certain information. His build is slightly different (15nex 15 gate), but the concepts are the same.
I've seen a lot of Terran do some reactored starport 4rax 1/1 stim timing push off of one base, has anyone encountered this on ladder while doing any variant of nexus first? What is the appropriate reaction, or is it a build order loss based on timing?
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hero vs mvp-
even with the greedy variant of the build in the op, you have 1 more zealot before your core finishes, and you get your core at the same time.
an important adjustment I suppose would be to use your scouting probe to check for floating rax, as there is little else for the probe to do once gas/no gas is scouted, especially on a 2 player map where you can guarantee getting this information
I did a little research here from the vods; thank you for linking those.
mvp starts his 2nd rax at 2:12 and the 3rd at 3:04
the 2nd rax is started a full minute before the first marine is out, at which point the probe would have to leave. herO could have gotten this information if he thought to seek it. The 2nd rax lands on the low ground at 3:27, at which point a marine could not have stopped herO's probe from scouting it. Had herO's probe found the 2nd rax, he would have stayed around long enough to see the 3rd one before his probe is killed by the marine that pops at about 3:10.
He scouted on 10, and it's a 2 player map. He sacrifices a bit of econ to ensure he can get in before a 16 depot. But MVP cannot deny scouting whatsoever given that he skips the second depot. the only way he could deny a probe entering his base would be to use another barracks to wall off, but that would show 2 rax; he could also wall at the bottom of the ramp, but that is the universal sign for 'i want to wall with 1 depot meaning i am getting more rax instead of a 2nd depot'
herO's build was 17 nexus 17 gate, a very greedy variant of nexus first. He does not put his early scout to use and so continues his build as planned. I wouldn't expect a nexus first to be able to hold off this kind of rush given that he did not see that it was coming until it was just outside his natural.
Given that he could have scouted this rush before it started, I propose another variant, one that you can audible to upon the completion of your second pylon, which comes with plenty of time after you would have scouted the 2nd rax. It uses a 12 scout rather than an 11 scout which still guarantee's herO's want to enter the terran's base before the 2nd depot would be build with a typical no-gas opener. Mining at the natural is denied at 5:15, so that is reflected in these numbers, as well:
9py
12 scout
16 nexus
17 gate
17 pylon
18 gas
18 gate
18 zealot
20 core
this will net you 3 zealots at 5:05, which is before MVP's first 5 marines began hitting herO's nexus.
Your first stalker will be out at 5:20, followed by a second at 5:35. You will have:
3 zealots 2 stalkers and 22 probes at 5:35. MVP's 10 SCVs got to herO's natural at 5:30
I ripped mvp's build, and you can get 8 marines and your first wave of SCV's to the nexus at 5:30
Initially, it will be 3 zealots against 8 marines and 10 SCVs, a fight that you will not win obviously. However, in a few seconds, you will ha've 2 stalkers, 3 zealots and 22 probes against 8 marines, 10 scvs and marines streaming in 1 at a time, and not very quickly. MVP's second wave of SCVS would not be able to engage in the main until 6:00, at which point you will have a 3rd stalker and a 4th will follow 10-15 seconds afterward.
By changing unit choice and pulling a probe from gas upon seeing the additional gates, you can have 4z2s + 24probes at 5:48 and 6z2s at 6:15.
Terran cannot force an engage with probes until the 2nd wave of SCVs hits a little after 6:00.
Ultimately, you're either looking at:
6 Zealots, 2 Stalkers, and 26 Probes vs.11 Marines and 17 or 18 SCVs, depending on if he lost his scout SCV or
3 Zealots, 4 stalkers and 24 Probes vs 11 Marines and 17-18 SCVs
I think both are close but winnable battles, given a good probe pull with mineral walk. It is also very likely some of the marines and scvs will be softened up before the terran can force you to engage thanks to your stalkers. herO managed to kill a marine before the engage.
I'm thinking about a 3rd gate if you have scouted it as herO should have been able to, but I haven't run those tests yet.
Obviously, not all maps are 2 player maps. For now, we will assume Antigua, and we scout the Terran last. You can confirm the spawn scout, and you will reach the place the barracks are elevatored down as the first one is landing in time to place your gate on 18 or 19 if you prefer. Hell, you might be able to delay it landing with your probe if your opponent's timings aren't as crisp as MVP's!
I will continue to look for the best possible solution.
edit: warpgate research was omitted in all of these trials. you have to use too much CB on it in order for it to help you in time, and that means less units when the terran can force you to engage. herO didn't cancel his.
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Alejandrisha. You are a God!
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The 3rd gate idea to hold it didn't work out, but I have another idea. Working out the build now. It might sound a little retarded but just bear with me
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Assuming no fixed spawns, and thus a 9 scout. As stated above, you can scout last and find the floating raxes at 18-19 food.
Disclaimer: this might sound insane
Here's another idea:
9 pylon, scout
16 nexus
16 Gateway
17 Pylon (low ground hugging the nexus like this + Show Spoiler +
18 Gas
(18-19 floating raxes are spotted at the last scouted + Show Spoiler +location
19 Forge
20 Zealot
22 Core
22 Zealot (2)
24 Cannon (placed to minimize surface area from SCVs)
When the 5 marines arrive, they will see this:+ Show Spoiler +
When the second wave of SCVs arrives, at which point he needs to engage you, he will be up against this: + Show Spoiler +
2 Cannons, 2 Stalkers, 2 Zealots and 24 Probes vs 11 Marines, 18 SCVs
I don't think this is at all winnable for him. At this point, you can support 2 gateways of chronoboosted stalkers and he is capped at 35 supply with only a single mule for income. He cannot even deny mining at your natural nor try to focus it down outside of cannon range. The cannons negate SCVs attacking entirely, and your stalkers can outrange his marines if he tries to avoid cannon fire in any way. To ensure the 2nd cannon will be up in time for the second wave of SCVs, you must start it no later than 5:15.
Some possible issues-
The best course of action for Terran might be to try to drill up the ramp. I don't think would be too troublesome, however, as this exposes his marines to cannon fire and whatever units/probes you have defending as they try to move up the ramp.
It's impossible to deny scouting of the forge. However, at this point, his 2nd rax has already finished. Even if he cancels his 3rd rax upon seeing the forge, your nexus is done before he starts 2nd CC if he calls off the rush, and the first 50 energy from his orbital is wasted. This is assuming he scouts you first. If he doesn't scout you first after the completion of his first rax, his 3rd barracks will be finished by the time he can spot your forge, and at that point he is entirely committed to the rush.
Remember: This only addresses floating 3 rax. The 2nd pylon placement is done blindly. It will also help spot for bunkers in the event that the floating 3 rax is not coming, but instead some kind of bunker harassment.
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MVP's build was just one variation, you can't rely on them floating down barracks at that exact spot every time etc. it's a rediculous counter in that way. Ofcourse if you see someone's VOD and take an hour to make a build for it you can beat it but in reality you are never that sure what the specific timings of a build are etc. If you do defend with cannon you should always build cannon at the front though, placing it behind pylon is stupid. The surface area you're reducing hardly matters as the damage comes from the marines and cannon at the back means they can snipe the pylon or even worse, make bunkers that hit your nexus and pylon but stay out of range of the cannon(s).
Nevertheless countering with forge is viable on some maps I think but it does rely heavily on scouting it very quickly. Perhaps doing an quick scv count is best when you enter the base to scout for gimmicky stuff quickly. By the time the rax finishes and orbital started they are on 15 scv's. Usually this is 13 on minerals/gas 1 building a depot and 1 scouting. If you see less then 13 working his base then you pretty much know for sure something odd is up as he is missing more then 2 from his base, which practically means several rax pressure + scv cut. If he has 13 working you have to see the building and or scouting scv to see what's up. With 14 (or even 15) in base (what you see 95% of the time) then you can rule out crazy triple rax plays etc and at most 1 rax is being proxied. Ofcourse counting quickly is pretty hard but if you just count the amount of minerals being double mined / not being double mined you can do it quite quickly.
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On January 31 2012 20:30 Markwerf wrote:
MVP's build was just one variation, you can't rely on them floating down barracks at that exact spot every time etc. it's a rediculous counter in that way. Ofcourse if you see someone's VOD and take an hour to make a build for it you can beat it but in reality you are never that sure what the specific timings of a build are etc. If you do defend with cannon you should always build cannon at the front though, placing it behind pylon is stupid. The surface area you're reducing hardly matters as the damage comes from the marines and cannon at the back means they can snipe the pylon or even worse, make bunkers that hit your nexus and pylon but stay out of range of the cannon(s).
Nevertheless countering with forge is viable on some maps I think but it does rely heavily on scouting it very quickly. Perhaps doing an quick scv count is best when you enter the base to scout for gimmicky stuff quickly. By the time the rax finishes and orbital started they are on 15 scv's. Usually this is 13 on minerals/gas 1 building a depot and 1 scouting. If you see less then 13 working his base then you pretty much know for sure something odd is up as he is missing more then 2 from his base, which practically means several rax pressure + scv cut. If he has 13 working you have to see the building and or scouting scv to see what's up. With 14 (or even 15) in base (what you see 95% of the time) then you can rule out crazy triple rax plays etc and at most 1 rax is being proxied. Ofcourse counting quickly is pretty hard but if you just count the amount of minerals being double mined / not being double mined you can do it quite quickly.
marines can't hit the pylon without getting hit by the cannon afaik. a bunker that can hit the nexus without getting hit by the cannon is possible, though. that doesn't really bother me too much. a 3 rax scv marine all in has a very small window of time to do damage as there is no money for a depot to bring you over 35 food. if he wants to put 100 of his very limited minerals towards a bunker, whose scv can be sniped really easily by your stalkers since you have a cannon back bone, then he can go right on ahead. there really aren't too many variations of this for which these two builds do not apply. Unless it's a 2 player map, the raxes have to be either at the tower in the middle of the map or in his base, as he can't scout you quickly enough to get his scvs to a proxy location at such a time where the rush is even dangerous. but even on a 2 spawn map, with an early scout (9 to 11 I suppose), you will be able to get in the base without obstruction to see if anything is amiss. If you can't get into the base, it means he has a depot/barracks wall which is a telltale in itself, or he began a supply depot at an early time only to halt its construction. in the second case, his 2nd and 3rd raxes will be further delayed 100 minerals if he was proxying. in any event, you will be able to identify no gas and then scout for proxy barracks at your leisure unless you are able to see a cc.
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Here's a match Alej was kind enough to send through to me with the 16nex. Enjoy
+ Show Spoiler +
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On February 04 2012 09:51 Duckvillelol wrote:Here's a match Alej was kind enough to send through to me with the 16nex. Enjoy + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNUeycByh00
That was a sexy game, thanks. Nice cast too, mate.
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Currently in the process of re-evaluating 16 Nexus even on safe maps. I've been having a lot of trouble with 2rax that waits for a sizable amount of bio before hitting the natural instead of going with 5 marines, a marauder and some SCVs. I find myself unable to hold the later timing because of the threat of an earlier one. I've been trying to work in cannons to solve this problem, and cannons seem to be the most promising out of the possibilities as far as I can tell. I am still trying to make this build as safe and solid as possible and will update the thread the minute I've found a reasonable solution.
Have faith!
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Thanks for updating the OP Alej! :D
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I have been going 17 nexus -> gate -> forge -> pylon -> gas -> 1 cannon, and I chrono out a ridiculous amount of probes, and just get 4-6 sentries/ 1 more cannon if he is going to all in, 3 gates -> robo -> total 6-8 gates to hold anything off then take 3rd when terran does, or when it is safe to-> observers only from robo and go zealot legs / early HT, I warp in archons if there is a troubled situation. hit good storms / forcefields in clutch situations is a lot easier with high gateway count and the early forge allows for very early upgrades which helps a lot in PvT.
I am high masters Protoss and have 90%+ win ratio vs terran with this opening, I strongly believe it is a lot stronger than this opening you are describing, solely because there is no threat from bio all in and little to no threat from fast drop / banshee / hellion , if done correctly, the forge and fast +1 armor makes any all in a lot weaker and the nexus first build a lot stronger, I think you should take it into consideration.
EDIT : yes and in you're thread's I tried to tell you that you had to have a forge to hold all in's -_- , I have 20+ replays I can present if needed. and some on KR server vs [Shield] terran.
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On February 21 2012 20:10 GGzerG wrote:
I have been going 17 nexus -> gate -> forge -> pylon -> gas -> 1 cannon, and I chrono out a ridiculous amount of probes, and just get 4-6 sentries/ 1 more cannon if he is going to all in, 3 gates -> robo -> total 6-8 gates to hold anything off then take 3rd when terran does, or when it is safe to-> observers only from robo and go zealot legs / early HT, I warp in archons if there is a troubled situation. hit good storms / forcefields in clutch situations is a lot easier with high gateway count and the early forge allows for very early upgrades which helps a lot in PvT.
I am high masters Protoss and have 90%+ win ratio vs terran with this opening, I strongly believe it is a lot stronger than this opening you are describing, solely because there is no threat from bio all in and little to no threat from fast drop / banshee / hellion , if done correctly, the forge and fast +1 armor makes any all in a lot weaker and the nexus first build a lot stronger, I think you should take it into consideration.
EDIT : yes and in you're thread's I tried to tell you that you had to have a forge to hold all in's -_- , I have 20+ replays I can present if needed. and some on KR server vs [Shield] terran.
<3<3 check your pm!
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This is awesome, I tend to go 17 nexus, 17 gate 17 gas, just to get that 3rd chrono used but it is really greedy but you can get away with it on maps like Tal'Darim.
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A quick question: What does it mean if terran starts a depot before his marine is out?? Is it a distinctive sign to almost confirm it is a 2 rax pressure or some kind of pressure? thanks
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On January 31 2012 01:07 Markwerf wrote:
I wonder, how far is 16 nexus with 9 scout ahead against a fast cyber 20 nexus build?
Personally I just always go 20 nexus instead of 16 nexus because I think the economy is nearly equal (you can scout later, don't have to probe patrol, not have to probe cut etc which makes up a large part of the later nexus) and the stalker / warpgate is out much faster. Some aggresive openings are just really hard to hold with 16 nex and you don't really have the time to respond to them often with 16 nex. Fast cyber builds commit to the greedy eco later so you at least have a window to respond to stuff like 3 rax no gas pressure.
Only map I like 16 nex is tal darim as I feel the others are just too small and especially some bunker spots between natural and the geyser can be abused too easily, even if you just patrol with 1 probe they can sometimes get up a bunker if the scv takes a lucky path while building.
It's a good build but I just feel the overall trouble you have to go through to make this work doesn't really put this ahead of 20 nex Sase style which is also a build that can pressure quicker if you want too. Perhaps I'll do a test when I get around to it but I think 16 nex is only a probe or two at most ahead of 20 nex while having to waste more resources on stuff like probe patrolling.
Thats what I always wonder, I wanna know against WHICH exact builds is 16 nexus superior to 20 Nexus. I use 20 nexus in literally every PvT and I have no problem holding off anything. So can anyone explain what the advantage of 16 nexus except some variation in builds?
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United States8476 Posts
How do hold off 1 rax no gas into reactive 3 rax/fake cc? I saw MVPKeen do this to ToD on Daybreak(Check here: Fnatic vs MVP Game 8) I personally always open 2 gates unless I'm sure my opponent is going 1 rax cc. Tod does so as well and he barely holds off the push on a very long map. I'm wondering how you would do it with 1 gate.
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Does anyone have the timings on important things like "first stalker" or "warpgate finishes" or "first to 30 probes" etc for a 16 nexus as opposed to the 15 nexus? Like others have stated here, I'm used to the 15 Nexus Axslav build. Unfortunately I'm at work and can't just compile this myself, but if we can get some numbers on what finishes when, maybe we can all be convinced to use the correct build order on Nexus First?
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CANNONS, CANNONS, CANNONS, CANNONS, CANNONS, CANNONS, CANNONS, I don't know how many more times I have to say it , Cannons, it is the ONLY way to hold of insane all in's , not be behind, and still get ahead, otherwise you are just going to end up losing a ton of units for no reason, when you could of just built 1-2 cannons and then u have forge + are safe + can macro better / more safely, terran takes a quick 3rd, you take a quick 3rd.
17 Nexus scout -> -> 18gateway ( if there is no scout ) -> 18 forge -> 18 pylon at choke -> 18 gas -> chrono boost probes, 1 cannon ( more if you see he is doing 1 base multiple rax ) -> 3 gateway then robo -> 6-8 gateways to be safe unless you see him taking a quick 3rd, then you take a 3rd of you're own, here is 2 replays.
http://drop.sc/117061
http://drop.sc/117060
I'm convinced there is no way to hold good terran all in's without cannons, and with them the possibilities are endless, I have 90%+ w/ l ratio vs terran w/ this build order on ladder, I accidentally deleted all my replays last night in a rage because of lag, found out i had thousands of replays in folders all over my computer, so I will upload more replays as I play them, I hope people find this of interest, I made this modification build order myself after reading alej's nexus first thread, and realized the way I am doing the nexus first build is a lot stronger than getting nexus first and not getting a forge. gl hf gg.
EDIT : another win in the terrans face after he did some ridiculously early marine attack after a nexus first with forge, follow up with 5-6 gateway / immortal / warp prism attack
http://drop.sc/117115
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The problem I’m having with this build is nothing to do with counters, or pressure, or rushes. If the terran 9 scouts and sees I have nothing in my base, they drop an engineering bay at the expansion and then my build order is:
9 pylon
15 gateway???
16 gateway???
gg and leave
Even this would not be such a big issue if you could hit the same timings using this build as you would with a 1 gate expand, because if the timings and build order were the same, you could just 9 scout and go gateway first if you see their scv coming. However, since the build orders and timings are very different with the 1 gate expand vs the nexus first, it's like playing random as a race, you need to learn two very different builds and you can never be as good at both builds compared to if you just focused on a single build.
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On February 25 2012 08:02 Dskreet wrote:
The problem I’m having with this build is nothing to do with counters, or pressure, or rushes. If the terran 9 scouts
No one 9 scouts as Terran... I mean, maybe in Bronze league, but really no decent Terran 9 scouts. No one.
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Hahahaha 9 scout!
Much more likely to just 14 CC right back at you. Not that a standard 1 rax expand will be much behind a 16 nexus anyway.
I'll take your macro and raise you some more macro.
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No one scouts in bronze, don't be retarded. Maybe gold league 9 scout.
Seriously though, 13 scout is also fast enough on a 2 player map. I started hiding the first pylon hoping that a 13 scout would be tricked into thinking it was a proxy gate, but I still got the expansion blocked once by a 13 scout and maybe 3 times by a 9 scout in 30 games.
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Literally i plan on only doing this in PvT if i die so be it. I most likely deserve it for being this greedy haha
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On January 30 2012 22:10 Alejandrisha wrote:
who cares if the game is 30+ mins long if you have a 100% chance of winning?
I am intrigued by this guide, but it seems really cheesy to me. It is like saying "well, you'll auto lose to 2 rax proxy Marauder with shells early (Namhcir style), and Geiko style 3 rax all-ins, but you'll have a good chance of winning otherwise because your opening so greedy..."
Thus I don't see how this helps me with the game anymore than any cheesy 1 base build. Your taking huge risks to get ahead, and because you're playing from so far ahead assuming you pull off the opening, you don't learn the matchup or the timings as solidly if you had opened safely.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-2922_51_33.jpg)
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