EPT
[G] PvT 16 Nexus: A Second Look - Page 3
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
Disclaimer: this might sound insane Here's another idea: 9 pylon, scout 16 nexus 16 Gateway 17 Pylon (low ground hugging the nexus like this + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-3104_34_00.jpg) 18 Gas (18-19 floating raxes are spotted at the last scouted + Show Spoiler + location ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-3104_34_09.jpg) 19 Forge 20 Zealot 22 Core 22 Zealot (2) 24 Cannon (placed to minimize surface area from SCVs) When the 5 marines arrive, they will see this:+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-3104_35_04.jpg) When the second wave of SCVs arrives, at which point he needs to engage you, he will be up against this: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-3104_35_29.jpg) 2 Cannons, 2 Stalkers, 2 Zealots and 24 Probes vs 11 Marines, 18 SCVs I don't think this is at all winnable for him. At this point, you can support 2 gateways of chronoboosted stalkers and he is capped at 35 supply with only a single mule for income. He cannot even deny mining at your natural nor try to focus it down outside of cannon range. The cannons negate SCVs attacking entirely, and your stalkers can outrange his marines if he tries to avoid cannon fire in any way. To ensure the 2nd cannon will be up in time for the second wave of SCVs, you must start it no later than 5:15. Some possible issues- The best course of action for Terran might be to try to drill up the ramp. I don't think would be too troublesome, however, as this exposes his marines to cannon fire and whatever units/probes you have defending as they try to move up the ramp. It's impossible to deny scouting of the forge. However, at this point, his 2nd rax has already finished. Even if he cancels his 3rd rax upon seeing the forge, your nexus is done before he starts 2nd CC if he calls off the rush, and the first 50 energy from his orbital is wasted. This is assuming he scouts you first. If he doesn't scout you first after the completion of his first rax, his 3rd barracks will be finished by the time he can spot your forge, and at that point he is entirely committed to the rush. Remember: This only addresses floating 3 rax. The 2nd pylon placement is done blindly. It will also help spot for bunkers in the event that the floating 3 rax is not coming, but instead some kind of bunker harassment. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Nevertheless countering with forge is viable on some maps I think but it does rely heavily on scouting it very quickly. Perhaps doing an quick scv count is best when you enter the base to scout for gimmicky stuff quickly. By the time the rax finishes and orbital started they are on 15 scv's. Usually this is 13 on minerals/gas 1 building a depot and 1 scouting. If you see less then 13 working his base then you pretty much know for sure something odd is up as he is missing more then 2 from his base, which practically means several rax pressure + scv cut. If he has 13 working you have to see the building and or scouting scv to see what's up. With 14 (or even 15) in base (what you see 95% of the time) then you can rule out crazy triple rax plays etc and at most 1 rax is being proxied. Ofcourse counting quickly is pretty hard but if you just count the amount of minerals being double mined / not being double mined you can do it quite quickly. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On January 31 2012 20:30 Markwerf wrote: MVP's build was just one variation, you can't rely on them floating down barracks at that exact spot every time etc. it's a rediculous counter in that way. Ofcourse if you see someone's VOD and take an hour to make a build for it you can beat it but in reality you are never that sure what the specific timings of a build are etc. If you do defend with cannon you should always build cannon at the front though, placing it behind pylon is stupid. The surface area you're reducing hardly matters as the damage comes from the marines and cannon at the back means they can snipe the pylon or even worse, make bunkers that hit your nexus and pylon but stay out of range of the cannon(s). Nevertheless countering with forge is viable on some maps I think but it does rely heavily on scouting it very quickly. Perhaps doing an quick scv count is best when you enter the base to scout for gimmicky stuff quickly. By the time the rax finishes and orbital started they are on 15 scv's. Usually this is 13 on minerals/gas 1 building a depot and 1 scouting. If you see less then 13 working his base then you pretty much know for sure something odd is up as he is missing more then 2 from his base, which practically means several rax pressure + scv cut. If he has 13 working you have to see the building and or scouting scv to see what's up. With 14 (or even 15) in base (what you see 95% of the time) then you can rule out crazy triple rax plays etc and at most 1 rax is being proxied. Ofcourse counting quickly is pretty hard but if you just count the amount of minerals being double mined / not being double mined you can do it quite quickly. marines can't hit the pylon without getting hit by the cannon afaik. a bunker that can hit the nexus without getting hit by the cannon is possible, though. that doesn't really bother me too much. a 3 rax scv marine all in has a very small window of time to do damage as there is no money for a depot to bring you over 35 food. if he wants to put 100 of his very limited minerals towards a bunker, whose scv can be sniped really easily by your stalkers since you have a cannon back bone, then he can go right on ahead. there really aren't too many variations of this for which these two builds do not apply. Unless it's a 2 player map, the raxes have to be either at the tower in the middle of the map or in his base, as he can't scout you quickly enough to get his scvs to a proxy location at such a time where the rush is even dangerous. but even on a 2 spawn map, with an early scout (9 to 11 I suppose), you will be able to get in the base without obstruction to see if anything is amiss. If you can't get into the base, it means he has a depot/barracks wall which is a telltale in itself, or he began a supply depot at an early time only to halt its construction. in the second case, his 2nd and 3rd raxes will be further delayed 100 minerals if he was proxying. in any event, you will be able to identify no gas and then scout for proxy barracks at your leisure unless you are able to see a cc. | ||
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Duckvillelol
Australia1240 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On February 04 2012 09:51 Duckvillelol wrote: Here's a match Alej was kind enough to send through to me with the 16nex. Enjoy + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNUeycByh00 That was a sexy game, thanks. Nice cast too, mate. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
Have faith! | ||
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Duckvillelol
Australia1240 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10668 Posts
I am high masters Protoss and have 90%+ win ratio vs terran with this opening, I strongly believe it is a lot stronger than this opening you are describing, solely because there is no threat from bio all in and little to no threat from fast drop / banshee / hellion , if done correctly, the forge and fast +1 armor makes any all in a lot weaker and the nexus first build a lot stronger, I think you should take it into consideration. EDIT : yes and in you're thread's I tried to tell you that you had to have a forge to hold all in's -_- , I have 20+ replays I can present if needed. and some on KR server vs [Shield] terran. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On February 21 2012 20:10 GGzerG wrote: I have been going 17 nexus -> gate -> forge -> pylon -> gas -> 1 cannon, and I chrono out a ridiculous amount of probes, and just get 4-6 sentries/ 1 more cannon if he is going to all in, 3 gates -> robo -> total 6-8 gates to hold anything off then take 3rd when terran does, or when it is safe to-> observers only from robo and go zealot legs / early HT, I warp in archons if there is a troubled situation. hit good storms / forcefields in clutch situations is a lot easier with high gateway count and the early forge allows for very early upgrades which helps a lot in PvT. I am high masters Protoss and have 90%+ win ratio vs terran with this opening, I strongly believe it is a lot stronger than this opening you are describing, solely because there is no threat from bio all in and little to no threat from fast drop / banshee / hellion , if done correctly, the forge and fast +1 armor makes any all in a lot weaker and the nexus first build a lot stronger, I think you should take it into consideration. EDIT : yes and in you're thread's I tried to tell you that you had to have a forge to hold all in's -_- , I have 20+ replays I can present if needed. and some on KR server vs [Shield] terran. <3<3 check your pm! | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Oneghaze
Turkey2 Posts
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Kaitokid
Germany1327 Posts
On January 31 2012 01:07 Markwerf wrote: I wonder, how far is 16 nexus with 9 scout ahead against a fast cyber 20 nexus build? Personally I just always go 20 nexus instead of 16 nexus because I think the economy is nearly equal (you can scout later, don't have to probe patrol, not have to probe cut etc which makes up a large part of the later nexus) and the stalker / warpgate is out much faster. Some aggresive openings are just really hard to hold with 16 nex and you don't really have the time to respond to them often with 16 nex. Fast cyber builds commit to the greedy eco later so you at least have a window to respond to stuff like 3 rax no gas pressure. Only map I like 16 nex is tal darim as I feel the others are just too small and especially some bunker spots between natural and the geyser can be abused too easily, even if you just patrol with 1 probe they can sometimes get up a bunker if the scv takes a lucky path while building. It's a good build but I just feel the overall trouble you have to go through to make this work doesn't really put this ahead of 20 nex Sase style which is also a build that can pressure quicker if you want too. Perhaps I'll do a test when I get around to it but I think 16 nex is only a probe or two at most ahead of 20 nex while having to waste more resources on stuff like probe patrolling. Thats what I always wonder, I wanna know against WHICH exact builds is 16 nexus superior to 20 Nexus. I use 20 nexus in literally every PvT and I have no problem holding off anything. So can anyone explain what the advantage of 16 nexus except some variation in builds? | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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Ashent
Korea (South)109 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10668 Posts
17 Nexus scout -> -> 18gateway ( if there is no scout ) -> 18 forge -> 18 pylon at choke -> 18 gas -> chrono boost probes, 1 cannon ( more if you see he is doing 1 base multiple rax ) -> 3 gateway then robo -> 6-8 gateways to be safe unless you see him taking a quick 3rd, then you take a 3rd of you're own, here is 2 replays. http://drop.sc/117061 http://drop.sc/117060 I'm convinced there is no way to hold good terran all in's without cannons, and with them the possibilities are endless, I have 90%+ w/ l ratio vs terran w/ this build order on ladder, I accidentally deleted all my replays last night in a rage because of lag, found out i had thousands of replays in folders all over my computer, so I will upload more replays as I play them, I hope people find this of interest, I made this modification build order myself after reading alej's nexus first thread, and realized the way I am doing the nexus first build is a lot stronger than getting nexus first and not getting a forge. gl hf gg. EDIT : another win in the terrans face after he did some ridiculously early marine attack after a nexus first with forge, follow up with 5-6 gateway / immortal / warp prism attack http://drop.sc/117115 | ||
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Dskreet
United States13 Posts
The problem I’m having with this build is nothing to do with counters, or pressure, or rushes. If the terran 9 scouts and sees I have nothing in my base, they drop an engineering bay at the expansion and then my build order is: 9 pylon 15 gateway??? 16 gateway??? gg and leave Even this would not be such a big issue if you could hit the same timings using this build as you would with a 1 gate expand, because if the timings and build order were the same, you could just 9 scout and go gateway first if you see their scv coming. However, since the build orders and timings are very different with the 1 gate expand vs the nexus first, it's like playing random as a race, you need to learn two very different builds and you can never be as good at both builds compared to if you just focused on a single build. | ||
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