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[G] - Mutas in ZvZ

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-10 15:16:05
March 05 2011 17:39 GMT
#1
Hello!

Little Self Introduction:
I'm a Zerg player and play on the EU servers, right now I got 3.4k points and I'm in masters.
I really like lots of fast units and gaining map control, hence I don't like roaches in ZvZ. I mean they're great and it's easy to make them work, but I simply enjoy playing a different style much more: Mutalisks

Yes, mutas in ZvZ. I know lots of pros don't seem to like thema whole lot, but I think it's worth giving them another shot. It is hard to make them work, I'm not gonna lie, but hey, they're funny as hell and great for mixing up your play a bit.
Mutas really generate epic games in ZvZ and I think with the infestor change we might see them being used more often, which is great, because mutas in sc2 ZvZ are spectacular to watch.

[image loading]

The basic idea:
+ Show Spoiler +
Your aim for the game is to get mutas out. Mutas need a lot of gas, that's why we gotta train stuff that doesn't cost a lot of gas: Speedlings. But speedlings alone don't do really well against anything but speedlings in lower numbers, that's why we research the +1 melee attack asap. +1 speedlings counter unupgraded roaches cost effectively.

Speedlings do really well along with mutalisks and allow for a lot of map control and such. Now that you gotta keep upgrading your speedlings to keep up with his roaches you will end up having a lot of melee and carapace upgrades, which is good, because the next unit we kinda aim for is the ultralisk.

Why the ultralisk? - Because it's almost immune to fungal, got +damage vs armored and already benefits from your upgrades. That's plenty of good reasons to get them.
So the basic game plan consisits of:
+1 lings -> mutas -> ultras


Build Order:
+ Show Spoiler +
Basically, there are two different ways of playing this style: Off of one base with a late expansion or with a FE. It depends on the map which style is to prefer.

Here goes the first BO, a speedling expand:
+ Show Spoiler +
9 overlord
14 gas
14 pool
15 overlord
16 queen
18 lings
20 evo chamber
21 expand

The only difference is that you pull drones off gas once you mined a total of 200. That way you will get your +1 attack asap.


Second BO, LiquidRet's FE style:
+ Show Spoiler +
9 overlord
15 hatchery
15 pool
14 gas
16 queen + 8 lings

Again pull your drones off gas when you gathered a total of 200 gas. Get the evo chamber when you're at ~12gas after you started researching the meta upgrade.


When to get the gases?
+ Show Spoiler +
It's very hard to give numbers for that, because every game is so different. Basically start mining gas when you feel you can afford it without hurting your mineral econ too much. Get the second gas when you start your lair. When you feel save; you got a lot of lings, you got a lot of drones and know what you're up to; get your 3rd and 4th gas.

You really need experience to play this style. A lot comes down to your gut feeling.


Why it works:
+ Show Spoiler +
Surprise effect:
+ Show Spoiler +
Probably one of the most important reasons. When you play on ladder and some mutas are all of a sudden hitting your opponent's overlords you're about to do sick amouts of damage. Most people won't anticipate mutas in ZvZ, because they're "oh so bad" and won't be able to react to them accordingly.


Map control:
+ Show Spoiler +

The speedlings with their +1 attacks (keep upgrading) and the mutalisks allow you to gain control of the whole map and to keep your opponent on 2 bases. You're free to expand or even double expand while you keep an eye on what he's doing. Snipe overlords, creep tumors, drones that try to expand, everything you can do to stall some time - you will need it.

[image loading][image loading]


Mind games:
+ Show Spoiler +
Since he won't have any vision of what's going on outside of his base he won't be able to tell if you're droning hardcore or setting up an army. He won't know if you're sticking to mutalisks (which in most cases is a bad idea!) or if you're tech switching. People will aim for a 2 base timing attack with infestors, roaches, some hydras and some queens - defend it and you have won (it's harder than you might think).


Economic advantage:
+ Show Spoiler +
You will always see yourself in a position with 1 or 2 bases ahead of your opponent. This m eans taht you don't have to be costeffective in order to win and you can easily outproduce him, since you got a few more hatches.


Reacting to what they're doing:
+ Show Spoiler +
This is the most important part of this build and at the same time the hardest part too. Most of the times you won't even get to mutas, because it's ZvZ..
That's why we start off with talking about the pre-muta era of your games:

+1Speedling expand build:
+ Show Spoiler +

Scouting:
On smaller maps scouting with your 2 inital will be just fine. You will see the banelings nest/roach warren before they finish, giving you enough time to prepare. Banelings and roaches are the two things we got to be concerned about.

Roaches
He's opting for roaches - hey, that's what we're hoping for! +1 Slings own roaches. You will be producing off of 2 base with a slight economic advantage and he will sit on base rallyin his roaches. Split up your army into 2 different control groups and flank. Keep producing lings and show off some perfect injections - done.

Burrow-Roaches
That's a little tricky; not scouting his lair might lose you the game. Get a lair yourself and an overseer.

Blings
You can either go baneling yourself and play a ling bling vs ling bling game. There are other sources on how to do that so I don't want to cover it here. Or you can play pure ling vs ling bling and micro well (even if it sounds dumb, I really win doing that) or you can play the safer style and get 2 or 3 spines with lings.

Blings-Roaches:
This style gives us quite some headaches. Terrible headaches tbh. Seems like you just earned a BO loss. No BO is bullet proof.
Theoretically I would respond with some spine crawlers and targetfire his banelings and split my lings 1 b1 and attack his blings. Once they're down send your lings in. It kinda relies on the opponent being dumb though.

LiquidRet's FE opener:
+ Show Spoiler +
The counters remain the same, there are some differences in scouting and travel times though. Since you like to do the FE build on bigger maps, scouting can become a problem, you might not be able to see what he's doing in time if you use your initial 2 lings, which come later with this build. On big 4 player maps I suggest scouting with the 14th drones like you do in ZvT and then react to whatever you scout accordingly.


You made it to mutas:
+ Show Spoiler +

Alright, we finally got mutas out, yay!
Basically I think sticking with mutas is a bad idea. The surprise effect is gone and the infestors he might have overproduced start paying off. I like getting like ~12 mutas and then prepare to transition into ultras.
There are two different things your opponent can do: Getting mutas and not getting mutas.

He is getting mutas:
+ Show Spoiler +
+1 carapace for flying units! Mutas with +1 armor own mutas with +1 attack, even in slightly smaller numbers. If he does a Muta build as well, it can be quite hard to transition out of ling muta, unless you get lucky and own his +1 attack mutas with your +1 armor mutas or your lings (you still keep upgrading) roflstomp one of his expansions while he's distracted. It's getting really weird in this case, you just gotta rely on what you think is best. Try to get an edge whenever it's possible and just outplay him.


He is not getting mutas:
+ Show Spoiler +
I suggest not getting any further mutas once you hit a number you like. He will be prepared once he saw your first muta out. Use the map control to expand and work towards your upgraded ultra ling army to swarm his units. You should be up in bases and up in production. Your lings will become a pain in the ass to deal with, once his infestors ran out of energy.


Late Game:
+ Show Spoiler +

First of all, it's very hard to give supply counts or some hints when to get the hive, I will have to play a hundred more games with this style to figure it out. I get the hive once I feel it's about time to get it - experience.

So, your ultras are out. Basically this is where we want to try to end the game. Double pronged attacks work wonders if he managed to take a 3rd base (or even more).
I suggest getting a second evo chamber when you start your hive (well, a bit later so it lines up) and start double upgrading. Also research the ling attack upgrde - it's insane: Lings with +3 attack and the attack speed do 13.6dps for half a supply.

It's all about pushing hard now, you got away from your harassing units and reached your beefy, upgraded units to tear him apart. This part of the thread shouldn't be under "Reacting to what they're doing", because you aren't reacting anymore. Swarm him to death.


Expectations:
+ Show Spoiler +
There are 2 events that will make this style a lot more viable. The infestor change and the introduction of bigger maps.

The new infestor just won't be able to fungal your mutas for hours till his hydras arrive to clean em up. Sure, you will take damage, but a damaged muta is still able to harass non stop.

Bigger maps allow for much better map control. It will be a lot easier to contain him and to punish him for moving out. You will also have a lot of time to prepare when he's moving out and the timing window that gets opened by ultralisks won't matter that much.

Ling Muta into Ultra definitely isn't a build that is easy to play. You need to micro your army carefully at all times and the pressure is always on you, since you just can't lean back and do nothing. However, I think mutas make for much better games and I'd really like to see them used more often.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



Replays and Images:
+ Show Spoiler +
I haven't played that many games doing this style so I don't have any very good replays in which I did everything right. I'm by no means a pro, so don't be too hard on me when I accidently get two infestation pits isntead of an ultralisk cavern and things like that. Also keep in mind that some of them actually knew what I was gonna do, which makes this build quite a bit weaker, because you don't have the surprise effect.

Replays of games not getting to muta play (but I had the intention to):
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146650-1v1-zerg-gutterhulk
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146759-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/148677-1v1-zerg-scrap-station

Replays including mutas:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146643-1v1-zerg-blistering-sands
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146647-2v2-zerg-backwater-gulch
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/148676-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

Replays of epic ZvZs due to the use of mutas:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146640-2v2-zerg-backwater-gulch
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146642-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146637-1v1-zerg-shakuras-plateau

And here are some motivational pictures:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]




I hope you enjoyed my little guide. I will update it if anything important comes to my mind. Thanks for reading it and feel free to comment.
Flyingpants
Profile Joined February 2011
79 Posts
March 05 2011 17:47 GMT
#2
2v2's don't count, and you will straight up lose to any roach push, or at least give him lots of time to add some AA.

And the reason mutas are super bad is because infestors kill them all dead instantly. Any decent zerg instantly makes infestors and your mutas are suddenly useless.
ducis
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada96 Posts
March 05 2011 17:50 GMT
#3
heres a VOD of destiny using mutas effectively in ZvZ
Mailing
Profile Joined March 2011
United States3087 Posts
March 05 2011 17:52 GMT
#4
I forsee a bigger use of them at 1.3

Not only will it be VERY hard to hit mutas with fungal, but they are only held for a measly 4 seconds. Unless you have 3-4 infestors all grouped to refungal over and over, they won't die.
Are you hurting ESPORTS? Find out today - http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=232866
lkjewq
Profile Joined November 2010
United States132 Posts
March 05 2011 18:08 GMT
#5
the thing is you just have to transition. you cant keep going mutaling like in other mus.
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
March 05 2011 18:17 GMT
#6
So you want to say that units you will have are: lings, mutas and later ultras? Don't you think that you will lose to every mid game roach push with +1 attack(2 hit ling)? O let's say there is a mid game and I have roaches, hydras and few banelings/infestors, what do you do? You think you gonna kill that with ton of lings and few mutas?
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
Alphasquad
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria505 Posts
March 05 2011 18:23 GMT
#7
muta play rocks on large maps because you force anti-air, gain mapcontrol(because the other one wont move out before having significant amounts of mobile anti-air) and you also deny scouting and be annoying when killing supply

i've never combined it with ultras but following with a 3rd base and mass roaches and it works quite well if you dont produce too much of them, if infestors will be changed like this then im sure it will be more viable and maybe speedlings will be more useful too in mid-late game
Neivler
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Norway911 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-05 18:40:18
March 05 2011 18:30 GMT
#8
On March 06 2011 02:47 Flyingpants wrote:
2v2's don't count, and you will straight up lose to any roach push, or at least give him lots of time to add some AA.

And the reason mutas are super bad is because infestors kill them all dead instantly. Any decent zerg instantly makes infestors and your mutas are suddenly useless.


Fast infestor off 2 bases can be destroyed by mutas if done correctly. Just spread out the mutas so they cant all be hit by 1,2 or even 3 fungals and then kill the infestors first and then the queens. If you take him by a little surprise then he will lose.

Also I like mutas in zvz, but only off 1 base. When you get 2 bases it is to easy to be scouted, a deadly roach push to kill you and your opponent should have such a good eco that he can easily afford some spores and a lot of hydras to defend.
And If you put up 5-8 spines to defend vs the roach push that might come, then I know what is coming. Mutas are easily countered when you know they are coming so I dont see a 2 base muta play as the best choice.

lately I have been opening with roachspeed pushes and then transition into a spire, vs FE zergs. They then get a late lair and dont get a lot of AA or scout me. So then some mutas come quite quick and they still struggle with defending the roach push that I just use as a decoy :D
I pwn noobs
brum
Profile Joined January 2011
Hungary187 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-05 21:04:53
March 05 2011 20:58 GMT
#9
Mutas in zvz are pretty good, although my games play out a bit differently. I get as many mutas as i can after the speedling+melee upgrades. The enemy zerg usually goes mass roach and starts attacking when he notices the mutas.
I use a lot of speedlings to tank the damage while finishing him off with the mutas if my lings die. At this point most zergs go hydra (..because of their awesome mobility?) and i'll go ling baneling. Banelings are usually pretty effective against hydras if you micro them well.
It's not like they can stim kite, right?
Also i micro my mutas during the big engagement to be in range of the roaches only.
If you want to see his tech route you can show him your mutas right when they hatch by killing his overlords all over the map. He'll usually have some tech morphing by the time you reach his base.
I guess mutas against infestors will be a lot more viable if the fungal change goes though.
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-05 21:59:03
March 05 2011 21:38 GMT
#10
For those who wonder what I'm defeding a roach timing push with they should go and watch the replays, it's all 3.4k masters opponents from the EU servers. They're all quite good.
Basically you will be ahead in upgrades on your lings and you got the defenders advantage and lings train faster than roaches and with upgrade advantage they do really well. If it's only roaches then mutas well do a great job of damaging them. If he gets infestors and hydras too then you already have ultras out.
Mutas are as good as roaches in ZvZ. I really look forward to see more of them, since they're so fun to watch and make for great games. If you don't believe me watch the replays tagged epic, they really are.

edit: added a replay of my opponent opting for 2 base roaches on Xel Naga. My ling harass forces him into an all in position since I'm able to kill so many drones. If he had blocked with queens I would have been free to expand and tech to mutas.
It's the second replay in the "intention to get mutas" replay section.
Steel
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Japan2283 Posts
March 05 2011 21:41 GMT
#11
I've been trying this all day long and it's pretty fun. I think it's mainly due to the fact that people don't expect mutas, but while it lasts have fun with it! I made like 10 Mutas, teched to hive and ultra but he pushed before. 100 food of 1/1 lings surrounding a 80 food of roach/hydra was pretty hilarious with good results. As soon as hydra numbers drop you bring mutas and you should be fine to clear the rest of the roaches. Bunch of ultras on 3 base usually seal the deal
Try another route paperboy.
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
March 05 2011 23:57 GMT
#12
Alright, I added some pictures to this guide to make it more user-friendly.
dementrio
Profile Joined November 2010
678 Posts
March 06 2011 00:07 GMT
#13
it does work if you can survive until you gain an econ advantage with your mutas. this happens if you were already ahead or if you can kill 15 overlords (or drones) before he reacts. Normally however, there is a large window where you will simply die if he pushes. speedlings do nothing against a large ball of roaches, upgrades or not - they simply do not have enough surface area.
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
March 06 2011 00:42 GMT
#14
My long time strategy for ZvZ used to be Speedling expand, then Muta. It was great because you could deny their expos almost forever and basically prevent any quick pushes. In the long run I decided against transitioning into Mutas, as it eats up way too much gas (even if you just get ~6) that you really need for Roach and especially Infestors. It's far easier to just take your expo and since you're ahead of your opponent, just make more Roaches than them and push either if they don't have Infestors or when you have your own.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
Supamang
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2298 Posts
March 06 2011 01:23 GMT
#15
i dunno. dont take my word for it because i just started trying out Zerg in 1v1, but i tried to muta someone in ZvZ earlier and he just said fuck it and charged my base with roaches. mutas couldnt kill them in time and when i went to his base to kill stuff, i only got off minimal damage before queens and hydras pushed me back. again, im not too experienced and he was a masters player tho so who knows.
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
March 06 2011 09:46 GMT
#16
On March 06 2011 10:23 Supamang wrote:
i dunno. dont take my word for it because i just started trying out Zerg in 1v1, but i tried to muta someone in ZvZ earlier and he just said fuck it and charged my base with roaches. mutas couldnt kill them in time and when i went to his base to kill stuff, i only got off minimal damage before queens and hydras pushed me back. again, im not too experienced and he was a masters player tho so who knows.

This is pretty standard. It's why you can't just go muta. If you stick with muta and let their roach numbers get too big (or if it's close positions) then you will have trouble defending. Maybe initially you can hold with some spine crawlers, though.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
March 06 2011 10:18 GMT
#17
That happens when you skip the upgraded speedlings. Against roaches I don't need a single spine crawler, period. I only get spines against banelings. When he moves out with say 30 roaches you should have 60 lings, 2 control groups to flank and at least one macro hatch and you just keep spamming lings till his roaches die.
PeaNuT_T
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden326 Posts
March 06 2011 10:21 GMT
#18
With proper scouting you'll see your opponent going muta and once its scouted its basicly a freewin for the player going hydra roach
iNcontrol, IdrA,Lz, Strifecro, Axslav, Machine, Demuslim! EG Fighting!!!~~
STALLONEZONE
Profile Joined December 2010
Ireland115 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-06 10:37:18
March 06 2011 10:29 GMT
#19
I think really the proper use for mutas in ZvZ is as a way to force hydra, and diminish roach count. I think it's entirely possible to go muta, and using the map control you have, keep him pinned long enough to take a 3rd, upgrade ranged/armour, and then go back to roaches. I see a lot of players go muta vs me in ZvZ and really I enjoy it, it's easy to turtle up your existing bases, get a bunch of hydra, throw down spores with your excess mineral income, and then -just go and kill him- with your superior roach/hydra count and ups.

I think you need to be very careful to understand that muta is just a method of forcing excessive hydra count, not an actual full on strategy, you're still going to need roaches to kill him eventually.

EDIT: A very very good way of using mutas would be to group them with an overseer and go hunt down his tumours, he's going to be actively creep spreading if he hopes to stop your muta harass efficiently.


On March 06 2011 19:18 decaf wrote:
That happens when you skip the upgraded speedlings. Against roaches I don't need a single spine crawler, period. I only get spines against banelings. When he moves out with say 30 roaches you should have 60 lings, 2 control groups to flank and at least one macro hatch and you just keep spamming lings till his roaches die.


This isn't true.

A lot of this seems to depend on you not only coming even in the speedling war early game, but actively winning it and doing solid damage, if you've done that, getting any unit will be fine, mutas or no.
3000ish Diamond Player. Want to practive *vZ or need help Zv* on EU? Add me: STALLONEZONE 309
DrNeon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-06 12:02:13
March 06 2011 11:58 GMT
#20
ZvZ simply doesn't allow for muta play in this state of the game.

I feel like ZvZ is essentially a broken matchup, and in that sense, it is the most comfortable one I play in.
All you have to do in ZvZ is take your expansion, tech roaches relatively quickly, get 5-6 and invade his nat with speedling/roach.

After that his only choice is to try to outmass you on one base (not going to happen unless you're terrible) or go mutas. Get your lair tech once your nat is fairly saturated, make hydras, and just deny expansions until you can push into his main and win.

That being said, mutas are only going to be good if your opponent either
A: Has more than 3 bases
B: Is massing ling/roach and is caught off guard
C: Doesn't properly respond to the mutas (ex. Double-queen/spores at every base)

In those situations -

A: I rarely ever have to take a third base in ZvZ.and don't really see a reason to so long as you're scouting empty bases and denying expansions, hidden or otherwise.
B: You've got to be in Silver if he's just massing ling/roach by the time you've got your lair up.
C: You've got to be in in Silver if he doesn't know how to deal with mutas

I typically get around 10 mutas in ZvP so I can harass while their deathball is rolling around the map, but typically no more of an investment than that.

It's also useful to have the spire in ZvP as Brood Lords are just a be-all-end-all against Toss if they've even got a tiny bit of support against Phoenixes and Voids

Thors and Marines just eat them alive, and against the hyper-standard Marine/Tank or M&M push you can't really afford to get mutas out.
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