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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
If you actually read the thread and watched replays then you would understand what I'm talking about and wouldn't need to post like that. Surprise effect, eco lead, map control and mind games are the reasons why I won't lose vs 30 roaches and 10 blings. | ||
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
On March 07 2011 05:24 decaf wrote: By the time he has 30 roaches and 10 blings I will have mutas out. The moment he moves out is the same moment he will have 80 lings in his base. If I see him getting blings I will add spine crawlers and be just fine. Even if some banelings hit my lings I will still clean everything up. I have the eco lead anyways and can afford to lose stuff. If you actually read the thread and watched replays then you would understand what I'm talking about and wouldn't need to post like that. Surprise effect, eco lead, map control and mind games are the reasons why I won't lose vs 30 roaches and 10 blings. So whats your transition and how do you deal with infestor? and what do you do for very early roach pushes? Do you just mass lings like crazy? b/c I find it hard to get enough larva to mass that amount of lings. | ||
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Arantir
United States53 Posts
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
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Airact
Finland366 Posts
On March 07 2011 07:54 decaf wrote: The thing about broodlords is the following: If you go broodlords he will get corruptors, now you need corrutpors as well to deal with his corruptors. Since you are morphing corrutpors into broodlords you will be down on corruptors and his corruptros will kill all your corruptors and broodlords. Brood Lords should be a finisher unit, not a random unit composition part. You get Brood Lords when he doesn't have the chance to get Corruptors before he is dead. The reason why a Brood Lord finisher is so good in Infestor composition is because nothing can get away from the BLs, nor close enough to hit them. The ideal way to do this is when he is resourse starving that if he would go Corruptor, your ground would kill him. I say this again because it's so important: Brood Lords are a finisher unit in ZvZ. You are NOT going to wait for his counter. If the counter happens, you of course counter him but that shouldn't happen in the first place. | ||
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B34ST
United Kingdom150 Posts
I'm logging on right now just to try this, except I'm playing with a different opener built on the same timings though. | ||
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TheBrofessor
Canada429 Posts
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
If you don't scout it in time you can throw down 2 spines crawlers and just micro your lings agaisnt his banelings (you need very good micro, it works just fine for me). When your +1 Melee attack upgrade finishes you will tear him apart once you deal with all the banelings guarding his lings. You also have the production and eco advantage since you got 2 bases and youre not mining gas. It all comes down to micro. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
I love to play them in ZvZ, I dont do them all the time but especially on bigger maps were u only have to defend like 1 choke they are great. Thats the way I play them: Get 2bases and a good defense with spine crawlers and some (like 5) roaches. Get mutas, kill his overlords, dont attack his eco and keep producing mutas. Take a third drone up and build a crapton of spinecrawlers. Dont fly over his creep, and try to deny his third as long as possible. Get a ton of banelings and if he pushes just try to kill his hydras with your banelings (baneling landmines are great because he is pretty gasintensiv with Infestor, Hydra, Roach and overseers arent of much use with you having total air superiority). After you killed his hydras you should have enough mutalisks to kill all the roaches and infestors (infestors dont work that great against huge numbers of mutas). You pretty much win right there. Or if he doesnt attack and maybe gets his third up, transition into broodlords, which he cant counter because broodlords are countered by corrupters in ZvZ and he cant really use those against your mutas. If he tries to kill the broods with hydras, use your banelings. Its a really strong build and I saw it used by Lenockfou or IMLosira (dont know which of those) in a GSL ZvZ, just crushing the opponent Zerg. The most important thing is not to overharrass, just take mapcontrol for long enough to get ahead. Its not sooo strong the dumb ladder maps, but I think its pretty playable on Shattered Temple (take the unscoutable "Island expansion") and Shakuras on cross positions. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
The zergs I played against are 3.3k and 3.6k masters, both EU. Have fun trying my ZvZ build. | ||
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P0ckets
United States430 Posts
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On March 11 2011 01:11 P0ckets wrote: You can’t really ever ZvZ without Roach if it gets past like the 5 minute mark. Even if your lair went up the second you queen finished, he will have 7+ roaches coming at you with more behind it halfway through your lair upgrade. The time it takes for your lair + spire to get up is more than enough time for your opponent to mass a serious Roach army. I think my credibility is higher than yours rendering your post meaningless. Read the guide and watch the replays before you try to prove me wrong. | ||
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EvilZergling
United States194 Posts
Most ZvZ games I play tend to be pretty good macro games but they all revolve around Roach and Hydra mix and normally the player with superior numbers, upgrades, and/or bases normally wins. I like your idea and planning though, going to give this a shot on the ladder tonight. Thanks! | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
On March 07 2011 02:51 STALLONEZONE wrote: A real important part of ZvZ is Roach/Hydra ratio, if you have too many hydras, you'll lose to Roaches. If you have no hydras, the extra DPS will crush you. I sometimes use mutas to force hydras, and then immediately switch to banelings, which are incredibly effective against hydras. It's kind of analogous to protoss building phoenix to force hydras then switching to colossi. | ||
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Djagulingu
Germany3605 Posts
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P0ckets
United States430 Posts
On March 11 2011 01:19 decaf wrote: I think my credibility is higher than yours rendering your post meaningless. Read the guide and watch the replays before you try to prove me wrong. Thanks for being a dickhead I guess ETIQUETTE is a word not found in your vocabulary. But I was trying to point out that an early roach push like a 7RR can roughly hit you at sometime around the 5min mark in game(4:40 to make and X time for the distance between bases)., which mean for both build orders the push would come before the +1. Then your first BO has a 21 Hatch, which will pop between 5:00-5:20, which makes a 7 RR hard to probably stop if you follow that build. Ret’s is a bit more plausible to defend against a 7 RR since the 15 hatch will finish between 4:00-4:16, and he will have 2 hatches, 2 queens, and probably enough larva to make enough lings to hold it off when it comes. But in either case you will need to still fend off all of his aggression for 133-213 seconds, while build a lair, spire, and mutas depending on when you start the lair upgrade, which can give your opponent enough time to mass a sizable roach army that even with your first batch of mutas might not be able to finish. Your playing on the back foot for like the first 7 minutes of the game, when most ZvZs are over by that time. I am not saying your shit doesn't work, I am just saying it might not work against certain other BOs. | ||
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
I'd say it's worth considering, not that I don't like ultras, they're awesome, but just some thoughts... In any case, nice thread, well made, enjoyed the read! :D | ||
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P0ckets
United States430 Posts
On March 11 2011 04:14 DuncanIdaho wrote: Don't broodlings benefit from evo chamber upgrades? Seems to me that maybe a transition into broodlords is worth consideration, as they are supported by your muta-air-superiority, and they're also benefitiing from the +1 flyer carapace upgrade. I'd say it's worth considering, not that I don't like ultras, they're awesome, but just some thoughts... In any case, nice thread, well made, enjoyed the read! :D Broodlings do benefit from the upgrades. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
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EvilZergling
United States194 Posts
It's weaknesses, for me anyway, is that if an opponent scouts your heavy ling army they immediately want to play baneling wars and this can get ugly and if you take too many losses, +1 melee or no +1 his lings are going to overrun yours. Any game where my opponent tried to tech roaches then eventually to hydra though I totally just rolled them every time. Good stuff. | ||
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