There are some cool tricks u can do with mutas in ZvZ: -) When your on equal bases get some roaches early, which forces your opponent to go roach too, and then switch into heavy muta play (e.g day9`s fast lair build against a standard 14pool fast speed build), or the other way round, get a few mutas, force hydras early and crush him with a roach/ling all-in.
-) and ofc mutas into broodlords is just great, because he won't go spire against your mutas, so he cant produce corruptors/mutas which u need to kill broods, and when he starts the spire too late ur mutas will just crush his air.
and to everone who says mutas are unplayable in ZvZ "because they get countered by...": like everyother build you dont play a mutabuild blindly
He might not get a spire to counter mine, but he might just get one as well. If he takes note of me getting a greater spire he can either go lose the game or get a spire himself. I still think that broodlords are not as viable as ultras in ZvZ, because you sacrifice corrutpors, which are the hardcounter to it, to get broodlords. So the player only getting corrutpors will end up having more of em eventually and will overwhelm your air force. Every broodlord you get you lose 2 corrutpors. 1 for morhping one into a broodlord and another 1 for the additional costs.
But oyu can play it the way you want. The main part of this guide is the +1 melee attack, which allows for the muta transition.
think a viable way to use Mutas in ZvZ is fast lair on one base (well defended with the Day9 build). You should have your ramp blocked by roaches, so he can't see you're going mutas. He will usually speedling expand.
Throw a hatch at the natural when you see him droning up and feel safe. Make around 6-8 mutas and go straight to his main. Unless he blindly put a spore crawler there or saw you coming and already grouped his queens, he will lose some queens and be forced to overreact, making 2 spores per mineral line, hydra den, etc. Then you just get out and hunt the overlords. This should break his economic advantage and allow you to get a quick 3rd with your map control. Then get whatever you want (ling baneling, roach hydra, roach baneling). I would opt for a roach composition because you already have a spire to transition into brood lords. But you don’t want to make any more mutas after the initial ones. Keep you gas for Overseers, Hydras, Broodlords and upgrades.
I will test this some more, but I find it easier than speedling wars if you know how to wall your base properly. Basically playing it like a 2-port banshee harass.
I think a lot of you are confusing winning with mutas, and winning thxs to mutas.
I mean, if you are in an economic lead, have more bases than your opponent, more drones, more upgrades, and a speedling army that is big enough to take on his roach army in a head-on confrontation and kill it... Well thats great really.
I wont deny that the gameplan of getting a giant advantage, and then getting mutas is a pretty good gameplan, and quite likely to win you the game.
However, the big issue, is that often, its going to be quite hard to get into that crushing lead to be able to get the mutas. And without a surprise effect (which wont happen vs good players), its really hard to use mutas to actually get a lead when you are even, or to come back from a disadvantage.
i always tech to mutas of one base then enjoy my map control by droning like no tomorrow and double expanding, into getting mass roach, seems to work well but im playing on a very low level. Edit: getting at a slightly higher level, i cant just sit back and wait till my mutas pop. So i have to get ling roach and expand, getting my additional gasses up
i get called a noob for going mutas but i do it almost every game unless someone specifically counters it. if you micro good and don't lose mutas you can harrass until you have enough to steamroll almost anything as long as you have enough lings to tank for 5 seconds or so.
On March 17 2011 23:26 decaf wrote: He might not get a spire to counter mine, but he might just get one as well. If he takes note of me getting a greater spire he can either go lose the game or get a spire himself. I still think that broodlords are not as viable as ultras in ZvZ, because you sacrifice corrutpors, which are the hardcounter to it, to get broodlords. So the player only getting corrutpors will end up having more of em eventually and will overwhelm your air force. Every broodlord you get you lose 2 corrutpors. 1 for morhping one into a broodlord and another 1 for the additional costs.
But oyu can play it the way you want. The main part of this guide is the +1 melee attack, which allows for the muta transition.
I don't think you got that I have Mutas in this build. So if he goes spire to counter my broods he has to have enough corruptors to counter my 20+ upgraded Mutas + my Broodlords. Thats a crapton of nonupgraded corruptors he has to be able to build in a very short time.
Imo Ultras in ZvZ are hard to play if you start from a standard Roach/Hydra composition. Because u need Infestors or roaches will outmicro u, and u won't have attack upgrades for the ultras and they need a lot of micro because they get stuck behind ur own roaches + they cant kill my air. So I think they're only a good option if u trade armys and then try to remax with them+ling+infestor.
Due to the recent patch I feel like bumping this again.
After doing several ZvZs on ladder against various opponents I have to say that mutas work even better now. People tend not to get too many roaches which helps you out with your +1lings count and fungal duration feels so short now, it's like you can fly away immediately after being hit. Magic boxing is also a useful talent toi have. However, the fungal deals more damage to ultralisks now, but that shouldnt change too much, cause you can fungal like 2 ultras at a time and you need a shit ton of fungals to deal significant damage to them. I will try my basic +1 ling opener with an infestor follow up and see how it works out. I'd prefer mutas being better though :>
It still takes 2 fungals to kill lings, which is great news. Even 1hp lings absorb a ton of roach damage, since roaches dont have smarttargeting and 1hp lings will kill an infinite amount of infestors with 0 energy :>
This build certainly got buffed. I'd also like to mention that I havent lost a single ZvZ when I had mutas out. The hard part is getting to them though. There seem to be so many 9pools these days :S
Thought I'd throw this out there, as I've been having some success with it. Not really following the build, but on the topic of mutas is ZvZ, I've found that they work fairly well against people going for a Roach/Infestor mix. I often times get a spire, and usually only 6 mutas, put them on two different hotkeys, and target down infestors.
It takes 4 fungals, I believe, to kill a muta, and if you spread them out, they will only kill 3 mutas with those five fungals. Likewise, if they throw down infested terrans, you can just leave as soon as any fungals end. A lot of people are going heavy infestors, and really don't have an answer to spaced out mutas, and you are able to do a good bit of sniping. If from this point you go your own infestors, you should have about even roach numbers, and more infestor energy, due to him panicking and throwing down infested terrans and fungals.
On April 04 2011 00:06 OpAndroid wrote: Thought I'd throw this out there, as I've been having some success with it. Not really following the build, but on the topic of mutas is ZvZ, I've found that they work fairly well against people going for a Roach/Infestor mix. I often times get a spire, and usually only 6 mutas, put them on two different hotkeys, and target down infestors.
It takes 4 fungals, I believe, to kill a muta, and if you spread them out, they will only kill 3 mutas with those five fungals. Likewise, if they throw down infested terrans, you can just leave as soon as any fungals end. A lot of people are going heavy infestors, and really don't have an answer to spaced out mutas, and you are able to do a good bit of sniping. If from this point you go your own infestors, you should have about even roach numbers, and more infestor energy, due to him panicking and throwing down infested terrans and fungals.
Along similar lines, I've found a few harassing mutas to be excellent for getting your opponent to waste their infestor energy just before pushing with your muta/bane/ling army. Good harrass on 2-3 mineral lines simultaneously can make it really easy to pick off mismanaged infestors as well.
Ya, I use mutas for harass and to force him into hydras. From there I just pump out an insane of upgraded roaches and I just engage->fly mutas in half way through fight to help mop up.
ZvZ mutas work well if u catch him off gaurd n snipe buildings and shit. Also if it forces a ton of spores you know hes down some workers so use that to your advantage too.
You just cant wait if you do this, once the first 5 o 6 pop gogogogog, cant let him get a lot of infestors out.
However, the fungal deals more damage to ultralisks now, but that shouldnt change too much, cause you can fungal like 2 ultras at a time and you need a shit ton of fungals to deal significant damage to them.
Wait a second, you're talking about casting fungal on Ultras and you're not ironic with that? ...
If you could fungal 2 ultras magically then it wouldn't be a shit idea to keep them away from your roaches for 4 seconds. But not likely.
Mutas are pretty shit against roach infestor. I'll upload replays in a few minutes but let me put it this way. You have less roaches and you're depending on your opponent not to notice. If he/she does then you're completely fucked if he engages on neutral or beneficial ground. The traditionalist will kill your units, kill your drones and maybe tech on a suicide mission. You're insanely behind. He dropped a hydra den the second he saw a muta and while you've been attacking his roaches trying to stop him from razing your base, he's been spamming hydras. Then what are you going to do? You're so far behind from significant losses and hydras decimate mutas.
You can actually just walk across the map with your new roach hydra army and kill his base before he can kill a hatchery. Its like a base trade race except with a car versing a go kart.
The I use them is to just get your big roach infestor army, and then get 6 mutas very late game. Fly these mutas to some far away expansion and just kill all his drones, most players can't even deal with this. If they can then just fly away and harrass at another base. It forces him to divide his attention, it allows you to attack as he moves his army around, and if he is a good player he still has to devote a small part + attention to the mutas. Giving you an opportunity to attack.
Thats a completely different story solidbebe and its very good play. When you supply cap you can build some drones into spines and produce 5 mutas and just clear overlords/kill undefended expansions or force your opponent to react in a way you want him to.
Opening or mid/early late game mutas are a build order loss in my strongest opinion.
Infestor roach hydra will screw you up big time, every time someone goes mutas in zvz, most likely they will get roaches in the early game to hold off aggression, as speedlings wouldn't cut it against an easy ling-baneling transition. From what I've experienced, the z will get a mixture of muta roach ling infestor toward the late game, and making the ultra transition. I just push at this time with a half decent hydra roach infestor army and win. Fungal locks down all mutas and lings easily.
On June 04 2011 18:37 Probe1 wrote: If you could fungal 2 ultras magically then it wouldn't be a shit idea to keep them away from your roaches for 4 seconds. But not likely.
Mutas are pretty shit against roach infestor. I'll upload replays in a few minutes but let me put it this way. You have less roaches and you're depending on your opponent not to notice. If he/she does then you're completely fucked if he engages on neutral or beneficial ground. The traditionalist will kill your units, kill your drones and maybe tech on a suicide mission. You're insanely behind. He dropped a hydra den the second he saw a muta and while you've been attacking his roaches trying to stop him from razing your base, he's been spamming hydras. Then what are you going to do? You're so far behind from significant losses and hydras decimate mutas.
You can actually just walk across the map with your new roach hydra army and kill his base before he can kill a hatchery. Its like a base trade race except with a car versing a go kart.
On March 06 2011 02:50 ducis wrote: heres a VOD of destiny using mutas effectively in ZvZ
Destiny himself said muta is useless in zvz because they are huge investment and they group together. Since infestors got buff'd, more are using them because they deal good against roaches and if your muta were out of position and got fungal'd, your whole flock of muta will be destroyed
EPT
