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[G] - Mutas in ZvZ - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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B34ST
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom150 Posts
March 06 2011 12:15 GMT
#21
My biggest trouble with using mutas in ZvZ is the zerglings to defend roache pushes, it might just be that +1 is the big problem I don't have.

Just a general question though, rule of thumb so to speak, so I can try it in my next future games as I love the idea of using ling muta in ZvZ (I'm a infestor guy atm), but I'm just afraid of using them vs Roaches.

How many +1 lings is it per roach? As I always seem to not make enough.
Airact
Profile Joined April 2010
Finland366 Posts
March 06 2011 12:24 GMT
#22
I use Mutas a lot in ZvZ. I start with Ling/Infestor which should hold against any Roach pushes just fine. Then when I'm safe, I get on 3base and get a Spire and Mutalisks.

I contain him, get more bases and stomp him with BL later. At least if everything goes right.

Infestor/Broodlord rofls at Roach/Hydra in late-game. There is a great tech and gas difference, but you should have more bases at that point.
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-06 12:26:52
March 06 2011 12:25 GMT
#23
So I watched 3 games:

Game1: he made a roach push on blisterings and you barely hold that. I can't imgagine how would you won that game if he had 3 banelings mixed in his roach army.

Game2: you lost..

Game3: on xel naga you runby speedlings in his main and exp while he was sleeping in the middle of the map. That's pretty much why you won...

I just don't know how would you defend any early roach/bling push or strong mid game timing push with roach/bling/hydra when your ultras are not out yet.

Your backbone army is upgraded speedlings. I mean opponent can just go hydra/infestor combo and kill you easily if he understands that all you have is lings and few mutas.
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
March 06 2011 12:36 GMT
#24
@ beast:
4 lings per roach I'd suggest, which is the same amount of supply. Then you should non stop bump zerglings.

@alpina:
It wasn't barely holding it, it just looked like it - I didn't even have to pull my drones and was way ahead economically.
The game I lost was against mutas so I don't see what it would prove. The only reason I lost it is I took the wrong 3rd, because it was like the second time I played on that map and I had troubles defending it.
The runby is just something you can do when he's moving out, you will always be able to do that.
Arir
Profile Joined May 2010
Finland60 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-06 12:38:16
March 06 2011 12:37 GMT
#25
Mutas arent solid units in ZvZ currently. Teching them is quite rough but lets expect that you can do it np everygame. How you actually combat roach-hydra-infestor? one fungal KILLS every ling/bane that it hits. And vs fungal it is pretty scary to go harass.

Basicly you are in hurry. I dont like ultras that much. Hydras are quite decent vs them and u need a lot gas and upgrades to make ultras. Maxed roach-hydra-infestor push will kill you before you get enough ultras out.

Though i`m a bit worried what happens after patch when they fuck up the infestors
If i cant hit fungal on banes, ling-bane-muta becomse actually quite scary force.
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
March 06 2011 12:44 GMT
#26
You need to react a lot with this build. He's getting many hydras? - Why should I get ultras then? Banelings and it's gg. He's getting infestors too? He can't have many hydras then, because it's very gas heavy and lings with spread out mutas or banelings drops should deal with it just fine.
You guys seem to forget that my income is higher than his and I don't have to be cost effective in order to win.
Ling -> Muta -> Ultra is the basic idea, but you can't just do build X and hope that you win. Mutas are very viable and I have yet to be proven wrong. I win about 80% of my ZvZs on ladder.
B34ST
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom150 Posts
March 06 2011 12:54 GMT
#27
I'd love to talk to you about this while playing some games, if you don't mind me adding you on EU. And using skype or what not as we play?
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
March 06 2011 12:58 GMT
#28
On March 06 2011 19:29 STALLONEZONE wrote:
I think really the proper use for mutas in ZvZ is as a way to force hydra, and diminish roach count. I think it's entirely possible to go muta, and using the map control you have, keep him pinned long enough to take a 3rd, upgrade ranged/armour, and then go back to roaches. I see a lot of players go muta vs me in ZvZ and really I enjoy it, it's easy to turtle up your existing bases, get a bunch of hydra, throw down spores with your excess mineral income, and then -just go and kill him- with your superior roach/hydra count and ups.

I think you need to be very careful to understand that muta is just a method of forcing excessive hydra count, not an actual full on strategy, you're still going to need roaches to kill him eventually.

EDIT: A very very good way of using mutas would be to group them with an overseer and go hunt down his tumours, he's going to be actively creep spreading if he hopes to stop your muta harass efficiently.


Show nested quote +
On March 06 2011 19:18 decaf wrote:
That happens when you skip the upgraded speedlings. Against roaches I don't need a single spine crawler, period. I only get spines against banelings. When he moves out with say 30 roaches you should have 60 lings, 2 control groups to flank and at least one macro hatch and you just keep spamming lings till his roaches die.


This isn't true.

A lot of this seems to depend on you not only coming even in the speedling war early game, but actively winning it and doing solid damage, if you've done that, getting any unit will be fine, mutas or no.

Force hydras? Hydras aren't bad units. They're great after you get a certain number of roaches to protect the hydras with.
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
gejfsyd
Profile Joined September 2009
Poland156 Posts
March 06 2011 13:18 GMT
#29
I was playing a +1 speedling->muta->ultra a little and i won some games with it. Its a really cool way to play, But a bling roach timing attack can kill you easly.

Here is the rep of one of my games
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194083#/replay_overview
Oceaniax
Profile Joined June 2010
146 Posts
March 06 2011 13:43 GMT
#30
On March 06 2011 03:30 Neivler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2011 02:47 Flyingpants wrote:
2v2's don't count, and you will straight up lose to any roach push, or at least give him lots of time to add some AA.

And the reason mutas are super bad is because infestors kill them all dead instantly. Any decent zerg instantly makes infestors and your mutas are suddenly useless.


Also I like mutas in zvz, but only off 1 base. When you get 2 bases it is to easy to be scouted, a deadly roach push to kill you and your opponent should have such a good eco that he can easily afford some spores and a lot of hydras to defend.
And If you put up 5-8 spines to defend vs the roach push that might come, then I know what is coming. Mutas are easily countered when you know they are coming so I dont see a 2 base muta play as the best choice.


If you see a one basing zerg with 2 gas, and I only see a roaches and/or zerglings, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what's going on.

Even if that person is still unsure about your gameplan after seeing all that, there's no reliable way to stop a slow OL scout from at least seeing your lair+gas, if not the spire itself.
Br3ezy
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States720 Posts
March 06 2011 13:52 GMT
#31
gg against baneling busts
Check out my guide to mechanics http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319876
Goliathsorrow
Profile Joined September 2010
Italy317 Posts
March 06 2011 14:19 GMT
#32
On March 06 2011 22:52 Br3ezy wrote:
gg against baneling busts

Why are these types of comment still allowed in the strategy section ?
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
March 06 2011 14:22 GMT
#33
On March 06 2011 22:43 Oceaniax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2011 03:30 Neivler wrote:
On March 06 2011 02:47 Flyingpants wrote:
2v2's don't count, and you will straight up lose to any roach push, or at least give him lots of time to add some AA.

And the reason mutas are super bad is because infestors kill them all dead instantly. Any decent zerg instantly makes infestors and your mutas are suddenly useless.


Also I like mutas in zvz, but only off 1 base. When you get 2 bases it is to easy to be scouted, a deadly roach push to kill you and your opponent should have such a good eco that he can easily afford some spores and a lot of hydras to defend.
And If you put up 5-8 spines to defend vs the roach push that might come, then I know what is coming. Mutas are easily countered when you know they are coming so I dont see a 2 base muta play as the best choice.


If you see a one basing zerg with 2 gas, and I only see a roaches and/or zerglings, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what's going on.

Even if that person is still unsure about your gameplan after seeing all that, there's no reliable way to stop a slow OL scout from at least seeing your lair+gas, if not the spire itself.

What's going on? 1 base roaches? You can't say he's going mutas just cause he has 2 gas off one base.
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
March 06 2011 17:40 GMT
#34
I think that IF you can do a large amount of damage with +1 melee lings against a onebase roach player and keep an expansion down, you can easily transition into mutalisks. The question is, why would you go mutalisks if you can finish it off right now?

I personally find mutalisks to be too gas intensive to be that useful. Then again I haven't dabbled around with muta's enough because my ZvZ's either end quick and painless or go into a roach/hydra war. In which case I would rather go for infestors than mutalisks.

There MUST be a timing where mutalisks are actually good. A very rare timing but there has to be one either way. I'm thinking about using about 8 mutalisks to snipe off overlords and get mapcontrol while getting a third and down-teching to roaches. Mutalisks en-masse are a dead tech no matter how you look at it.

I have been beaten by good muta players before. And their play involved getting a really quick third right as the mutas pop and then just overwhelming me with their macro since they seize map control. I think that especially in the next patch that mutalisks might become a really fun unit to experiment with considering the projectile of fungal and spreading them to prevent it. Still, I do not see use for it apart from a specific niche right between the time your opponent gets a natural and your muta's pop. They're simply too hard countered by infestors and hydra's to safely get them.
STALLONEZONE
Profile Joined December 2010
Ireland115 Posts
March 06 2011 17:51 GMT
#35
On March 06 2011 21:58 T.O.P. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2011 19:29 STALLONEZONE wrote:
I think really the proper use for mutas in ZvZ is as a way to force hydra, and diminish roach count. I think it's entirely possible to go muta, and using the map control you have, keep him pinned long enough to take a 3rd, upgrade ranged/armour, and then go back to roaches. I see a lot of players go muta vs me in ZvZ and really I enjoy it, it's easy to turtle up your existing bases, get a bunch of hydra, throw down spores with your excess mineral income, and then -just go and kill him- with your superior roach/hydra count and ups.

I think you need to be very careful to understand that muta is just a method of forcing excessive hydra count, not an actual full on strategy, you're still going to need roaches to kill him eventually.

EDIT: A very very good way of using mutas would be to group them with an overseer and go hunt down his tumours, he's going to be actively creep spreading if he hopes to stop your muta harass efficiently.


On March 06 2011 19:18 decaf wrote:
That happens when you skip the upgraded speedlings. Against roaches I don't need a single spine crawler, period. I only get spines against banelings. When he moves out with say 30 roaches you should have 60 lings, 2 control groups to flank and at least one macro hatch and you just keep spamming lings till his roaches die.


This isn't true.

A lot of this seems to depend on you not only coming even in the speedling war early game, but actively winning it and doing solid damage, if you've done that, getting any unit will be fine, mutas or no.

Force hydras? Hydras aren't bad units. They're great after you get a certain number of roaches to protect the hydras with.


A real important part of ZvZ is Roach/Hydra ratio, if you have too many hydras, you'll lose to Roaches. If you have no hydras, the extra DPS will crush you.
3000ish Diamond Player. Want to practive *vZ or need help Zv* on EU? Add me: STALLONEZONE 309
Airact
Profile Joined April 2010
Finland366 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-06 18:17:34
March 06 2011 17:59 GMT
#36
On March 07 2011 02:40 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I think that IF you can do a large amount of damage with +1 melee lings against a onebase roach player and keep an expansion down, you can easily transition into mutalisks. The question is, why would you go mutalisks if you can finish it off right now?

I personally find mutalisks to be too gas intensive to be that useful. Then again I haven't dabbled around with muta's enough because my ZvZ's either end quick and painless or go into a roach/hydra war. In which case I would rather go for infestors than mutalisks.

There MUST be a timing where mutalisks are actually good. A very rare timing but there has to be one either way. I'm thinking about using about 8 mutalisks to snipe off overlords and get mapcontrol while getting a third and down-teching to roaches. Mutalisks en-masse are a dead tech no matter how you look at it.

I have been beaten by good muta players before. And their play involved getting a really quick third right as the mutas pop and then just overwhelming me with their macro since they seize map control. I think that especially in the next patch that mutalisks might become a really fun unit to experiment with considering the projectile of fungal and spreading them to prevent it. Still, I do not see use for it apart from a specific niche right between the time your opponent gets a natural and your muta's pop. They're simply too hard countered by infestors and hydra's to safely get them.

100% true. Mutalisks should NEVVVVVVER be opened with in ZvZ.

If you don't want to read about Infestor/Ling ZvZ, skip to the TL:DR

Because I use Infestor/Ling map control heavy strategies, I get a 3rd before Spire 100% of the time. I can surprise my opponent if he doesn't go Infestor by going Muta and securing my map control even more.

Like: Speedling Pressure, secure map control if he goes Roach. You get your Natural hatchery with the Speedling expand timing, but you make more Lings than usual. You scout a Baneling nest, you gather gas if you already don't and go Banelings of your own(Or Roach if you are not confident enough in your abilities or want to be safe).

Infestor energy asap after Lair. Lair itself should be pretty fast(3guys on gas after you start your 2nd queen) and save resourses for an Infestor pop when Infestor energy research hits 50sec. 4gases should be up as Lair gets done if you Droned well enough, 2-3gas is Doable but vulnerable against Roach attacks.

Get a 3rd when you are safe, Spire after 3rd. THEN you can get Mutalisks.

I use Mutalisks as a stepping stone to BL if the opponent doesn't have Infestors of his own. If he has, I just make more units, go faster Hive and BL.

I hear BL/Infestor/Ling/Baneling rofls at Roach/Hydra/Infestor based armies. Or if he doesn't have Infestors, Infestor/Baneling/Ling also kills Roach/Hydra pretty badly.

TL:DR if you don't want to read crap about Infestor/Ling ZvZ: Use Mutalisks as a Stepping stone to something that uses Spire if the opponent doesn't have Infestors.
hypnobean
Profile Joined October 2010
89 Posts
March 06 2011 18:39 GMT
#37
I think it depends on map really. Lots of spines can help make this work if the natural is narrow enough to make effective use of them. Leenock did this recently in GSL on Terminus RE with great results.
Chinesewonder
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada354 Posts
March 06 2011 18:51 GMT
#38
I always go mutas in ZvZ. And I must first of all say that I dont feel its the proper way to play. I feel almost "cheesy" when I do it. But yea, I would say the biggest factor is surprise element. Also I love when my opponent goes hydars because they are so slow. I can pick off queens, OL, a few drones and it is really annoying. The biggest problems are obviously infestors (but it might not be much of an issue anymore since its not instant cast and its only 4 seconds of damage), and also roach pushes early. I'm kind of skeptical that you can hold 30 roaches with only 60 upped lings, but I guess ill try it. Also I find it useful to constantly pressure run bys into his base if he comes out with roaches... Its a good way to keep them in their base until you get mutas.
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
March 06 2011 20:09 GMT
#39
60 lings won't be enough to kill 30 roaches, but 120 lngs will be. They eat up the same amount of supply and don't cost any gas.
A lot of people are very preemptive when it comes to mutas in ZvZ, but they are really good. At least I have a lot of success with them at my level of play, which isn't the lowest.
If you don't believe me you cannot hold roaches with lings or you will die to infestors plus hydras then go ahead and watch the replays, I deal with that kind of stuff every game and it works out just fine.
Flyingpants
Profile Joined February 2011
79 Posts
March 06 2011 20:12 GMT
#40
120 lings may kill 30 roach, but then they add 10 banelings into the 30 roach ball, and you can't even engage them followed by loss.
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