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[G] Adel's No Gas PvP

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-12 00:44:53
December 13 2010 23:59 GMT
#1
>> New Liquipedia page! http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Adel's_No_Gas_PvP <<

Note: This post is probably slightly outdated, however I keep the wiki page linked above up to date with regular updates.

Overview
The idea of using this build is to utilize minerals as an advantage over your opponent during the early game, thus being able to expand safely against a 4 gate. This is called the No Gas PvP for two reasons: 1) your first assimilator (and cybernetics core) is delayed); 2) you don't take a second assimilator until after you have a good saturation of minerals on your natural.

Hopefully other people will adopt this into their arsenal of PvP builds, as to help sway PvP away from that god awful 4 warpgate build.

This build was adopted from Adelscott, and shown to me in a Day9 daily.


The Opening Build
Start with:
  • Use first three Chronoboost on probes
  • 9 Pylon
  • 13 Gateway
  • 14 Pylon
  • 16 Gateway
  • 17 Zealot
  • 20 Assimilator
  • 21 Pylon
  • 21 Zealot
  • 24 Cybernetics Core
  • 26 Zealot
  • 28 Zealot
  • Attack with four Zealots at about 4:45-4:50
  • Chronoboost on Probes
  • Pylon (about when Cybernetics finishes)
  • 2 Stalkers (Chronoboosted) -> Rally onto your Zealots or enemy base


This ordering seems pretty awkward; you go for 2 gateways then an assimilator? While the second gateway is being constructed you'll want to produce a zealot. Before the cybernetics finishes you want to end up with a total of three-four zealots (preferably four, depending on whether or not your nine scouted), and as the cybernetics finishes you chronoboost out two stalkers -be sure to use your chronoboost as the above order shows! If you fail to properly chronoboost you'll end up without your necessary probe count and poorly utilized chronoboost. Once you're two initial stalkers are out, then you can spend 50 vespene on warpgate.

I want to make a quick note here: if you think your initial zealot can deal significant damage (kill a pylon, or at least two probes) then go ahead and chrono it out and attack. Often times lower level opponents will skip their initial zealot trying to get warpgate research as fast as possible, and this is exploitable by chronoboosting out your first zealot and attacking with it.

Once you end up with your [ideally] four zealots and two stalkers attack and deal as much damage as possible. If you timed this right you should arrive just before warpgate technology is researched. Take this time to knock out a key pylon or two, or take down as many probes as possible.

[image loading]
Running up the ramp before he has warpgate finished with 3 zeals and a stalker, he only has 3 zealots!


Adel hits with his initial four zealots about 30 seconds before his stalkers arrive, as that is the timing that you need to be precise with on hitting the enemy. This should hit before warpgate finishes (unless there is an insane rush distance or something). Attacking like this with four zealots is impossible for two stalkers to pick off before your own two stalkers arrive, and will likely persuade your opponent to spend chronoboost on their gateways rather than on their warpgate tech, thus delaying their four warpgate push.

If you feel like you can overwhelm him and just win, keep chronoboosting from your two gateways, then add on two or three more so you have 4-5 warpgates once your own warpgate gets researched.

Ideally you want to at this point delay his warpgate tech, and kill probes. I'm usually able to get away with a 10 probe lead at this point in time.

If he ends up finishing warpgate while you are in his base, and you don't think it will be worth your remaining army to just attack probes while dieing, go ahead and retreat back to your natural (explained momentarily).


Expanding
You have a couple options while expanding. First, you can expand while you are attacking with your three zealots and two stalkers, following this up with two more gateways and a forge. This will allow you to have 4 warpgates worth of production (to match your enemy's), along with a couple cannons at your natural. A single cannon is usually sufficient if you've been able to knock some probes out. You really cannot skip this cannon! These cannon(s) are extremely cost efficient, so much so that a cannon will be able to protect your natural better than a stalker, or a zealot. The cannon is also great for detection against DT rushes or builds.

[image loading]
Keep that cannon alive!


Your second option is to add on your two additional gateways, and then expand. This delays the expansion but allows you combat a 4 warpgate rush if you weren't able to deal sufficient damage. Also, if you add on your warpgates before expanding, in the case that you can't hold your expansion you can cancel the nexus and fall back up your ramp. Worst case scenario: you end up with more probes than the other guy, and 4 warpgates. I wouldn't recommend transitioning into 2 gate robo, as you won't have the vespene to support robo units.


Extra Resources
Since you'll be taking a very quick expansion, you'll have a greater income than usual, and as such you are allowed leeway in what you spend your money on. Since you already have a forge, it's great to start chronoboosting +1 weapons once your cannon(s) are up.

After you have a decent saturation of minerals at your natural you can add on as many assimilators as you like. I usually like to add on all three all at once, and then throw down a twighlight council. The twilight council is usually the best avenue to choose, as you already have a ratio of 3:3:1 in terms of gateway units, the 1 being sentries (explained in the Key Notes section). I prefer a transition into mass blink stalkers followed by archons.


Transitioning
After a couple production cycles once your natural is fairly saturated you should be able to dominate in a head on battle. From here, you can expand or tech to anything of your liking. I prefer to get blink stalkers and about 4 archons. The archons are used to tank enemy fire (preferably collosus fire), and do pretty darn well vs zealots due to splash damage. This goes great if the enemy went one or two base collosus, since you can tank with the archons and blink into the collosus and snipe them. This works well since on two base with stalker production with 4 assimilators as you'll have an excess in vespene.

Another alternative would be to go with mass wargpates after you take a third base, and harass with multiple warp prisms, or just go in with one massive assault warp prisming into the back of his base.

Transitioning from this build is really open ended, since if you did it successfully against a 4 warpgate you should come out ahead.


Against Robo Builds
[image loading]
HuK tries a collosus push against Adelscott!


Honestly, I've never played anyone that's gone with some sort of robo opening. This is because when players see your intial two gateways, they are expecting mass zealots, and they rush to match your gateway count. Once they realize you aren't zealot alling they switch to 4 gate. I can just imagine an early push of 3 zealots and two stalkers destroying a robo build since only one immortal should be able to get out in time, which is a huge investment at this point in the game.


Key Things to Note
- Since you are utilizing a mineral disparity between you and your opponent as your advantage, you are going to want only a couple sentries. You should have a ratio of about 3:3:1 of zealot stalker sentry, until you add on additional assimilators.

- Your cannon is also essential for detecting dark templar, so place it so it has vision of your ramp so that you can FF the ramp and block dark templars, if necessary.

- If you fail to deal significant damage with your first attack you will need to either add on additional cannons at your natural, or skip the natural entirely.

- Target key pylons powering multiple buildings, or probes, with your initial attack. If your units are going to die no matter what (perhaps his warpgate finished while you were in his base and you failed to retreat in time), then die while shooting down his probes instead of his army. Shooting his probes will delay future warpgate units from ever appearing!

- If your opponent has zealots target firing your cannon, use a FF or two on your cannon so the zealots end up ramming into the FFs, thus being a waste of minerals momentarily.

- Don't nine pylon scout, as this build should be safe against a 2 gate (Adelscott states that it's safe vs proxy 2 gate in the VOD against WhiteRa). If you do decide to nine scout it should cost you an entire zealot.

- The effectiveness of this build sharply decreases if you try to use it on a map like Shakuras Plateau or Xel Naga Caverns. On Shakuras the rush distance in large, and on Xel Naga your natural is too wide for cannons to be of much use.


Why this Works
This build works for a couple reasons. Most players when seeing you perform this build will go along with the "standard" response, as in they are simply going 9 pylon 12-13 gate 14-15 assimilator. Once they see your second gateway, they also add on a gateway -usually after they lay down a cybernetics core (unless their core was going to be late due to poor execution on their part). At this point the enemy can either mine gas and try to stalker your zealot allin (because it looks like a zealot allin variation for a moment), or they will pull probes off of their vespene and try to match you in your supposed zealot production. Either way you come out ahead, as you'll have two stalkers along with your first push, then you'll also have a natural and 4 warpgates, which would destroy them if they had pure zealots.

Assuming they keep mining vespene (and most people will), they'll have quite a few less minerals since you delayed your assimilator, and this is good news for you, since you'll have more minerals to expand even though your army should be of greater value anyways. Your attack (on most maps) should hit before warpgate finishes and you should be able to deal significant amounts of damage to their economy, thus forcing them to regain their probe count before mounting their four warpgate attack. If they don't repair their probe count they won't be able to produce at full capacity their warpgates allow.

Also, this build will destroy anyone trying to 4 warpgate without reacting to your early aggression, since the attack hits before warpgate is researched.


Replays (more may be added as I collect them) and VODs
This is me on the NA ladder vs someone going for a korean 4 warpgate build! I won! I think Adel's build hard counters the korean 4 warpgate.
  • http://www.mediafire.com/?zpyxl8w8a1yo3dk


This replay is of me playing vs a Protoss who quickly popped out three sentries to cover their ramp. I simply expanded and laid my cannons down -expecting a 4 gate to hit me hard. He ended up trying to DT expand, which failed due to the cannons.
  • http://www.mediafire.com/?ipx8884grsgysu2


This is a replay of me playing on the NA ladder on Steppes of War. I nine scouted, which I advise against as it looks like Adel skips this scout as well (see Key Notes). However, my initial attack deals a lot of damage and the rest of the game is mine to lose.
  • http://www.mediafire.com/?gm77gtb0ox21qx5


This replay shows me on Steppes using this build and check-mating the other guy with blink stalkers and a couple archons.
  • http://www.mediafire.com/?6j5p8tlj6lcq8f4


AdelScott vs HuK on Lost Temple. Note how few sentries Adel gets, and note when he starts +1 and lays down his twilight council. This is actually a different variation, but he still fast expands and uses a cannon, he just doesn't go with early aggression this game.
  • http://www.mediafire.com/?tfck42bkcvn3bb1


AdelScott vs HuK on Metalopolis. This is a great example of early aggression, and gateways before the nexus. I actually think it would have been optimal to lay the nexus down first, although Adel was just playing it safe. This replay shows an excellent example of how to defend against a quick collosus push response from the opponent.
  • http://www.mediafire.com/?lipn2dswdwcl69l


Here is a Day9 Daily on the AdelScott No Gas PvP!
  • http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4099940/


Here is a VOD of AdelScott vs WhiteRa at Dreamhack, with Adel commentating (in French).
  • Adel vs WhiteRa
  • Here is a translation done by Hane:
    + Show Spoiler +
    0:44 ~air close pose - he fears whitera's prism strat~

    1:02 This is his favorite build (2gates) and it's safe vs proxy gate.

    1:09 So he knows that he can't harass with the first zealot because of WhiteRa's build order with fast stalker + zeal.

    1:23 But he know that he can make a good push with a 4z+2s, with a perfect timing.
    Then he can expo or (oO') 5gates stalkers.

    *sending 4 z + chrono 2 stalkers.*

    1:56 While (before?) his push he makes warp upgrade+nexus
    push can prevent from 4gate/rush and scout for some proxy.Also, he must care about proxy pylone in base.

    *speaking about the fight - kill stalker, kill probes => he knows that he is ahead*

    *adding +3gates*

    *whitera's push*

    At this point he knows that he had a better eco, so he wants to "burie the game" with more probes
    => nexus gold

    he upgrade 1/0 then 2/0

    little push, to scout WhiteRa's tech (colossus) so he makes council => blink

    when blink up, push with proxy pylone.


Adelscott vs MouzMana on Scrap Station VOD. Adelscott tries to set up and saturate his expansion, although the 4 gate allin from Mana ends up winning him the game. Still, this game gives a good show on how the build is supposed to run, and how to respond to heavy pressure. As far as I can tell Mana won because he completely cut probes and I'm assuming Adelscott didn't, and I believe Mana had slightly better micro and possibly slightly better unit composition.
  • Adelscott vs MouzMana


Adel replay pack! Not all of these games are of the Adel build, but many are slight variations and worth looking at. Thanks to Saja for finding this!
  • Adel replay pack


If you find a replay with high level players doing this, or have a good replay of yourself, please post it in this topic so I can add it to the list!
Deindar
Profile Joined May 2010
United States302 Posts
December 14 2010 00:06 GMT
#2
Amazing OP. I've been waiting for a post like this because fuck 4 gate. Thanks so much for the detailed, clear post too! I'm going to try this ASAP.
EG|Liquid|QxG|DTG fighting!
grimAuxiliatrix
Profile Joined October 2010
United States105 Posts
December 14 2010 00:12 GMT
#3
Sounds awesome, I'm anxious to try it.
Word to your mothership HuK
AgaYeahh
Profile Joined November 2010
16 Posts
December 14 2010 00:16 GMT
#4
There is a vod of Adel doing this against WhiteRa at DreamHack.
Here is the link Adel Vs WhiteRa, it's commented by Adel himself but it's in French.
I believe there is a vod (in english) of this game but couldn't find it...
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
December 14 2010 00:19 GMT
#5
On December 14 2010 09:16 AgaYeahh wrote:
There is a vod of Adel doing this against WhiteRa at DreamHack.
Here is the link Adel Vs WhiteRa, it's commented by Adel himself but it's in French.
I believe there is a vod (in english) of this game but couldn't find it...

Wonderful, thanks! Hope you don't mind me adding this into the OP
sikyon
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1045 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 00:45:57
December 14 2010 00:44 GMT
#6
Sounds interesting! But what if they scout the 2nd gate late, and instead of responding by matching gate count (since it's going to be too late anyways) they respond with a forge after gate with a chronoed sentry? At that point if your zealot attack doesn't come they'll scout your build and tech directly to robo and hit you with collossi?

Edit: how map dependent is this strat, I guess would be my main question.
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
December 14 2010 00:48 GMT
#7
On December 14 2010 09:44 sikyon wrote:
Sounds interesting! But what if they scout the 2nd gate late, and instead of responding by matching gate count (since it's going to be too late anyways) they respond with a forge after gate with a chronoed sentry? At that point if your zealot attack doesn't come they'll scout your build and tech directly to robo and hit you with collossi?

Edit: how map dependent is this strat, I guess would be my main question.

If they forge and cannon, then you can spend an equal amount of resources expanding. Think of the money they invest in their cannon as free money to you -as long as you don't attack the cannon.

By the time collosus come out you should have enough stuff to just overpower them. Keep your units spread in an arc, and keep them from touching each other to reduce collosus splash damage. If you deal damage to probes, then they shouldn't be able to overwhelm you with collosus. Take a look at the metalopolis replay with Adelscott.

The build isn't map specific, but it sure helps you out if your choke is narrow. Although, I've done this build on Xel Naga caverns successfully before
Excel Excel
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
142 Posts
December 14 2010 02:26 GMT
#8
I saw the build and was about to mention that I'm skeptical of the 2gate -> assim, but then I read the rest of the OP and was genuinely impressed by the opening. Now I'll have something fun to try out in this otherwise god-forsaken PvP matchup.
"SCREW OBSERVERS MUST HAVE MOAR ARBITERS!!!11one1" - Famous last words
Cencil
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2 Posts
December 14 2010 02:56 GMT
#9
Pretty Interesting build. As a platinum ranked player I would hope people had outgrown the whole 4gate thing but unfortunately not, I busted this Build out and have won a few PvP games. Looking at this build i figured it would never work but it works splendidly. Hope you all the best of luck against the dreaded 4 gate, this build will turn out quite effective ^^
I return from the realm of the Pen ^^
yarkO
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada810 Posts
December 14 2010 03:01 GMT
#10
I've tried this out a couple of times today in my PvP.

The first game was a wash, didn't really have any sense of how it should 'feel', but it gave me a good place to start. I was able to inflict damage, but I didn't add Gates in time after my natural and some mismicro cost me the game.

The 2nd match I had a better idea of how this should work. It was on Blistering Sands, and being able to pressure his rocks helped me feel safe expanding off the first 5 units. Anyways, I went Gate -> Forge -> Gate, stayed on 1 gas and was able to execute the build really well.

Thanks a lot for sharing this. I highly recommend trying this out for yourself. It'll take a couple games to get the hang of how it should play out, but it certainly holds against the openings I faced.

When you are prepared, there's no such thing as pressure.
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
December 14 2010 04:17 GMT
#11
1)ADelscott vs huk @ lt does not belong in this thread. Not delayed gas. Not 2gate to core.

2)can add this:


3)Lets be clear about what adel's build is: 4zealot/2stalker.
chrono out 1st lot seems to be something you added.
No BO or unit timings given in this guide.
Still, good effort, nice thread.
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 04:53:39
December 14 2010 04:42 GMT
#12
On December 14 2010 13:17 Knickknack wrote:
1)ADelscott vs huk @ lt does not belong in this thread. Not delayed gas. Not 2gate to core.

2)can add this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYY-JWY_Vhw&feature=player_embedded#!

3)Lets be clear about what adel's build is: 4zealot/2stalker.
chrono out 1st lot seems to be something you added.
No BO or unit timings given in this guide.
Still, good effort, nice thread.

Oh you're right. I didn't realize that even though I've watched that replay so many times. I modified my post to make note that he didn't delay gas, he did some sort of variation instead.

But Adel's build doesn't look like it's always 4 zealot 2 stalker, I believe I've seen three initial ones with optional follow up zealots.

Yeah I said the chrono zealot is optional, it's something I added in.

I haven't perfected the build (I don't have the skill to perfect it), and I don't think I'm skilled enough to develop a strict BO, or extremely in-depth timings. However, thanks a lot for the feedback.
burninglegionx
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada22 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 06:19:39
December 14 2010 06:10 GMT
#13
how would this do vs the 5stalkers in 5 min build?

the BO i use:
*save chrono boosts
9pyl -> scout and harass workers like ****, but DO KEEP THIS PROBE ALIVE!
10 gate
12 gas -> 2 probes to gas
13 core -> 3rd probe to gas. Chrono warp research.
15 2nd gate
16 1st stalker --> will get you to 18/18 food
18 proxy pylon with the scout probe (hide it well. This one doesn't have to be right next to their base as you can just build another proxy pylon close to the fight when you're pushing)
18 2nd stalker
20 3rd stalker
22~23 build 3rd gateway, and chrono 1st&2nd gateway while they transform to warpgate (to make the conversion faster)

move out with the stalkers
warp in 4th and 5th stalker at the proxy


My best time is 5:20~ for 5 stalkers & 3 warp gates.

Doing a 9pyl, 9gate, 11 gas, 12 core, 14 2nd gate, etc. will get stalkers out in 5:00 min but with fewer probes and it is for 2 warpgates, not 3.
On your PC, the units seem to perform quite poorly. I think there might be something nearby the PC that is causing this problem for you. You may need a mirror to find out what it is. :D
Khaladas
Profile Joined May 2010
United States223 Posts
December 14 2010 06:17 GMT
#14
On December 14 2010 13:42 CecilSunkure wrote:
I haven't perfected the build (I don't have the skill to perfect it), and I don't think I'm skilled enough to develop a strict BO, or extremely in-depth timings. However, thanks a lot for the feedback.


Actually I think it's easier than that. When I see something I like I just find replays where it was used and then just note the times/food counts of the major stuff and voila you have a basic build order that's already been perfected by a pro.

If someone doesn't beat me to it, i'll do this tomorrow if I get a chance.

time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a bananna
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
December 14 2010 06:24 GMT
#15
I just finished reading the entire guide and it looks pretty good overall, but one question regarding the very beginning. How are we supposed to do damage with out first zealot (ie kill a pylon or 2 probes), and how are we supposed to do damage with our first push of 3 zealots and 2 stalkers? I understand the expanding part, but I don't see how the initial push can do any sort of damage in practice.
green.at
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Austria1459 Posts
December 14 2010 06:33 GMT
#16
On December 14 2010 15:24 Chairman Ray wrote:
I just finished reading the entire guide and it looks pretty good overall, but one question regarding the very beginning. How are we supposed to do damage with out first zealot (ie kill a pylon or 2 probes), and how are we supposed to do damage with our first push of 3 zealots and 2 stalkers? I understand the expanding part, but I don't see how the initial push can do any sort of damage in practice.


Most of the time it won't do dmg cause of force field. and thats what you should get if you scout this build because this build capable of a fast 2gate stalker push.
What i started doing is a 1 gate expand (after 1zealot and 1 stalker), then adding on 2 more gateways and a forge. You can poke in with your stalker/zealot and sometimes punish a player who skipped the first zealot, otherwise you can just turn around.
Inputting special characters into chat should no longer cause the game to crash.
gr8ape
Profile Joined July 2008
Canada302 Posts
December 14 2010 06:57 GMT
#17
youve been watching too much day9
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17250 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 07:04:12
December 14 2010 07:03 GMT
#18
This is a very misleading title. Delayed gas or late gas, sure, but it's the farthest thing from "no gas."
twitch.tv/cratonz
CecilSunkure
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2829 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 07:32:18
December 14 2010 07:31 GMT
#19
On December 14 2010 15:33 green.at wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2010 15:24 Chairman Ray wrote:
I just finished reading the entire guide and it looks pretty good overall, but one question regarding the very beginning. How are we supposed to do damage with out first zealot (ie kill a pylon or 2 probes), and how are we supposed to do damage with our first push of 3 zealots and 2 stalkers? I understand the expanding part, but I don't see how the initial push can do any sort of damage in practice.


Most of the time it won't do dmg cause of force field. and thats what you should get if you scout this build because this build capable of a fast 2gate stalker push.
What i started doing is a 1 gate expand (after 1zealot and 1 stalker), then adding on 2 more gateways and a forge. You can poke in with your stalker/zealot and sometimes punish a player who skipped the first zealot, otherwise you can just turn around.

The initial zealot is completely optional. Against an opponent planning to 4 gate they'll be saving up chronoboost. If you scout them and are pretty sure they just want to 4 warpgate you, sending an initial zealot can cause a little bit of havoc and be worth it. I have a replay of doing such a thing up there. I should clarify this point in the original post. Really, it's not apart of the build order and I just added it in, since it's useful vs unskilled players.

300 vespene needed to forcefield a player off a ramp this early in the game is an enormous investment. I'd say it's very safe to immediately expand if you see a player with 3 or 4 sentries this early in the game, as they won't be able to combat your zealot stalkers (hence them forcefielding in the first place).

On December 14 2010 16:03 Craton wrote:
This is a very misleading title. Delayed gas or late gas, sure, but it's the farthest thing from "no gas."

Day9 coined the phrase, and I liked it.
ThemBones
Profile Joined December 2010
Denmark10 Posts
December 14 2010 10:08 GMT
#20
This is great inspiration; thank you for the time and effort you invested in sharing this!
'I found out through the Internet that I have AIDS. I learned that I was dead. Where else would I find these things?' -- Layne Staley
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