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On June 30 2011 08:24 CCalms wrote:
Uhh.. torichan.. he 2gates in response to your proxy and wipes out your proxy before you canget stalkers out, setting you back 400 minerals... this build is meant to get an expansion up... if you want to cheese then there are better proxy builds.
This build dies laughably convincingly to so many protoss openers, please don't keep trying to do it. Adelscott has stopped doing it for over 5 months now lol..
Would be lovely if people would actually provide evidence of this build dying to "so many protoss openers" instead of just saying that.
It feels like a lot of fast tech builds that could normally punish the expand might first struggle more than usual against the early zealot stalker pressure?
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On June 30 2011 08:24 CCalms wrote:
Uhh.. torichan.. he 2gates in response to your proxy and wipes out your proxy before you canget stalkers out, setting you back 400 minerals... this build is meant to get an expansion up... if you want to cheese then there are better proxy builds.
But I should have my two gates at least as fast as his plus my defenders advantage if he finds an attacks my proxy. Also if he does this I will scout it since I have such an early scout and can produce zealots just as fast as he can.
I had heard adelscott stopped using this build too and from the age of the thread I assumed it was over the 'fad' period, but I like it and want to make it work still.
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On June 30 2011 09:50 CecilSunkure wrote:
Well, this opening is really old and outdated, and just doesn't work at all anymore. After your first push there's a time when you only have 2 gates and no warpgate, so you can be out-produced in this time and take heavy punishment. Also, the other player can gain an easy army advantage by getting more stalkers than your initial push will have. This opening mostly worked when it was new and people did not know how to react.
If the guy who made the post on this build is saying that it's not viable anymore, then wouldn't it be a good time to close the thread?
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I have actually had a fair amount of success with this build still once I noticed that if you see a scout probe right before you put your gateway down it means they 9 pylon scouted and are in close positions on metalopolis or shattered temple. I also gave up on the expansion and decided on a 4 gate follow up. When I've tried it the zealots always seem to keep them busy long enough to get your gateways up.
Thoughts on going for a 4 gate transition instead of an expo?
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On June 30 2011 10:17 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 09:50 CecilSunkure wrote:
Well, this opening is really old and outdated, and just doesn't work at all anymore. After your first push there's a time when you only have 2 gates and no warpgate, so you can be out-produced in this time and take heavy punishment. Also, the other player can gain an easy army advantage by getting more stalkers than your initial push will have. This opening mostly worked when it was new and people did not know how to react. If the guy who made the post on this build is saying that it's not viable anymore, then wouldn't it be a good time to close the thread?
Someone might improve the build and post it here before making a new thread.
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On June 30 2011 10:07 torichan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 08:24 CCalms wrote:
Uhh.. torichan.. he 2gates in response to your proxy and wipes out your proxy before you canget stalkers out, setting you back 400 minerals... this build is meant to get an expansion up... if you want to cheese then there are better proxy builds.
But I should have my two gates at least as fast as his plus my defenders advantage if he finds an attacks my proxy. Also if he does this I will scout it since I have such an early scout and can produce zealots just as fast as he can. I had heard adelscott stopped using this build too and from the age of the thread I assumed it was over the 'fad' period, but I like it and want to make it work still.
The problem is that when you proxy gates, if you don't attack, he doesn't NEED to attack you at your gates. Eventually you are going to want to expand in this build, and the problem with a proxy is that if you EVER pull back, those gateways are dead and you lose the investment.
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Ah, it looks like someone has already gone ahead and documented the proxy attempt path. Thanks a lot for this link!
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Canada13431 Posts
Still pretty good in very very close positions but other than that not a great build at all. It really relies on you doing damage with the first push which makes it quite risky. But like cecil linked, the maka gate is quite effective when you realise your opponents know what to do in response.
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On July 01 2011 01:47 torichan wrote:Ah, it looks like someone has already gone ahead and documented the proxy attempt path. Thanks a lot for this link!
Maka gate isn't proxied, its just hidden. "Proxy" comes from "proximity", what is a gate in your own natural in proximity to?
But anyway, the maka gate method actually can be very strong but it relies on the opponent overreacting or underreacting, both of which are a product of a lack of proper scouting or familiarity with protoss openings.
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Any build that relies on your opponent to make a mistake is best saved for tournament settings, not ladder. Ladder you want to stick to the kind of build that works even if they know exactly what is coming.
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On July 01 2011 07:59 CCalms wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 01:47 torichan wrote:Ah, it looks like someone has already gone ahead and documented the proxy attempt path. Thanks a lot for this link! Maka gate isn't proxied, its just hidden. "Proxy" comes from "proximity", what is a gate in your own natural in proximity to? But anyway, the maka gate method actually can be very strong but it relies on the opponent overreacting or underreacting, both of which are a product of a lack of proper scouting or familiarity with protoss openings.
I meant that when he talked about how the build came to be he explored proxying the second gate to avoid detection that gives away the build.
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"If you bump this, you better have a good reason."
Ok, my good reason: I do not think this BO is outdated. And I want to point out, that my changes on
Adel's_Late_Gas_PvP
were approved.
I play this BO for quite some time now and I think it is a good strat in lower leagues to counter a 4Gate. Reasons:
- 4Gate: WarpGates open between 5:40 and 5:50
- 4Gate: If a ChronoBoost is missed, 6 minutes and later is possible, too.
- Depending on the rush distance 4 Zealots attack between 5:20 and 5:40 (leaving at 4:35)
- Defense: 1 Zealot & 1 Stalker (often first Zealot is skipped)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/6/6e/AdelScott_Units_Spendings.jpg/300px-AdelScott_Units_Spendings.jpg)
The image was taken at 5:20 (silver league) and red looses his Zealots and afterwards a couple of probes.
SearingCrater - PvP - Time 7:19: BO is executed quite well. Assimilator: 2:54, Core: 3:40, first Stalker: 4:42, WG-Tech: 4:46, but Nexus is late, because additional troops are made.
XNC - PvP - Time 6:29: A great example (gold league) of this strat with a long rush distance (Xel'Naga Caverns). The timings at the beginning are quite good. The core is build too late (25 seconds). The initial attack is very early. Blue leaves his base at 4:34. Blue does not loose a single unit.
I am no master and I do not know if this build is still viable in ML, but I think it's a good BO in lower leagues. I hope some people in Bronze or Silver are reading this. I am Gold and PvP is my best MatchUp because of AdelScott.
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United States8477 Posts
On November 26 2011 03:36 NeoBlade wrote:"If you bump this, you better have a good reason." Ok, my good reason: I do not think this BO is outdated. And I want to point out, that my changes on Adel's_Late_Gas_PvPwere approved. I play this BO for quite some time now and I think it is a good strat in lower leagues to counter a 4Gate. Reasons: - 4Gate: WarpGates open between 5:40 and 5:50 - 4Gate: If a ChronoBoost is missed, 6 minutes and later is possible, too. - Depending on the rush distance 4 Zealots attack between 5:20 and 5:40 (leaving at 4:35) - Defense: 1 Zealot & 1 Stalker (often first Zealot is skipped) The image was taken at 5:20 (silver league) and red looses his Zealots and afterwards a couple of probes. SearingCrater - PvP - Time 7:19: BO is executed quite well. Assimilator: 2:54, Core: 3:40, first Stalker: 4:42, WG-Tech: 4:46, but Nexus is late, because additional troops are made. XNC - PvP - Time 6:29: A great example (gold league) of this strat with a long rush distance (Xel'Naga Caverns). The timings at the beginning are quite good. The core is build too late (25 seconds). The initial attack is very early. Blue leaves his base at 4:34. Blue does not loose a single unit. I am no master and I do not know if this build is still viable in ML, but I think it's a good BO in lower leagues. I hope some people in Bronze or Silver are reading this. I am Gold and PvP is my best MatchUp because of AdelScott.
It's been figured out. That is, if you know how to play vs it, you will win almost every time.
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On November 26 2011 03:36 NeoBlade wrote:"If you bump this, you better have a good reason." Ok, my good reason: I do not think this BO is outdated. And I want to point out, that my changes on Adel's_Late_Gas_PvPwere approved. I play this BO for quite some time now and I think it is a good strat in lower leagues to counter a 4Gate. Reasons: - 4Gate: WarpGates open between 5:40 and 5:50 - 4Gate: If a ChronoBoost is missed, 6 minutes and later is possible, too. - Depending on the rush distance 4 Zealots attack between 5:20 and 5:40 (leaving at 4:35) - Defense: 1 Zealot & 1 Stalker (often first Zealot is skipped) The image was taken at 5:20 (silver league) and red looses his Zealots and afterwards a couple of probes. SearingCrater - PvP - Time 7:19: BO is executed quite well. Assimilator: 2:54, Core: 3:40, first Stalker: 4:42, WG-Tech: 4:46, but Nexus is late, because additional troops are made. XNC - PvP - Time 6:29: A great example (gold league) of this strat with a long rush distance (Xel'Naga Caverns). The timings at the beginning are quite good. The core is build too late (25 seconds). The initial attack is very early. Blue leaves his base at 4:34. Blue does not loose a single unit. I am no master and I do not know if this build is still viable in ML, but I think it's a good BO in lower leagues. I hope some people in Bronze or Silver are reading this. I am Gold and PvP is my best MatchUp because of AdelScott.
Yeah I used to use this build a lot when I was moving from silver to diamond. The problem is that it is so easily scoutable and the response is just to chrono stalkers and kite the zealots. If they do that, you lose your initial push doing almost no damage and then would lose to a 4gate. Now that you can hold a 4gate with a single sentry this might be a little different, but your warpgate would still be extremely delayed so i don't think it would matter much (you would have to make too many sentry to stall for your unit production to catch up).
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I (Gold) played this against a Master. He scouted it and boosted 3 Stalkers out.
His Micro was way better than mine. He caught my 4 Zealots in the middle of the map and kitet them. I lost one, but when my stalkers entered the fight, he retreated to his base.
I did not make any damage, but I got cannons and my Natural up. Since he is Master he easily defeated me in Mid-Game. Multiple attacks and drops, while having a better Macro than me.
If you do not make any damage and you loose all your troops, you have a disadvantage. But if your opponent has better Micro AND better Macro (Gold vs. Master) than I do not think there is a way to win, with a solid strat (no cheese).
Is AdelScott OP? No, certainly not. But it's a good strat in the lower leagues, if your multitasking is good enough.
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I understand this is a good build for lower leagues but you've got to understand that as you improve this will not be a viable strat anymore. It's much better to improve off of a more viable strategy so that as you climb the ladder you won't hit a wall and start losing points as you try out another strategy.
One good reason other than the warpgate research time increase is that the new maps are all larger and thus it's much easier for chronoboosted stalkers to kite the zealots on the way to his base (or back to yours).
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EPT
