Note: This post is probably slightly outdated, however I keep the wiki page linked above up to date with regular updates.
Overview The idea of using this build is to utilize minerals as an advantage over your opponent during the early game, thus being able to expand safely against a 4 gate. This is called the No Gas PvP for two reasons: 1) your first assimilator (and cybernetics core) is delayed); 2) you don't take a second assimilator until after you have a good saturation of minerals on your natural.
Hopefully other people will adopt this into their arsenal of PvP builds, as to help sway PvP away from that god awful 4 warpgate build.
This build was adopted from Adelscott, and shown to me in a Day9 daily.
The Opening Build Start with:
Use first three Chronoboost on probes
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
14 Pylon
16 Gateway
17 Zealot
20 Assimilator
21 Pylon
21 Zealot
24 Cybernetics Core
26 Zealot
28 Zealot
Attack with four Zealots at about 4:45-4:50
Chronoboost on Probes
Pylon (about when Cybernetics finishes)
2 Stalkers (Chronoboosted) -> Rally onto your Zealots or enemy base
This ordering seems pretty awkward; you go for 2 gateways then an assimilator? While the second gateway is being constructed you'll want to produce a zealot. Before the cybernetics finishes you want to end up with a total of three-four zealots (preferably four, depending on whether or not your nine scouted), and as the cybernetics finishes you chronoboost out two stalkers -be sure to use your chronoboost as the above order shows! If you fail to properly chronoboost you'll end up without your necessary probe count and poorly utilized chronoboost. Once you're two initial stalkers are out, then you can spend 50 vespene on warpgate.
I want to make a quick note here: if you think your initial zealot can deal significant damage (kill a pylon, or at least two probes) then go ahead and chrono it out and attack. Often times lower level opponents will skip their initial zealot trying to get warpgate research as fast as possible, and this is exploitable by chronoboosting out your first zealot and attacking with it.
Once you end up with your [ideally] four zealots and two stalkers attack and deal as much damage as possible. If you timed this right you should arrive just before warpgate technology is researched. Take this time to knock out a key pylon or two, or take down as many probes as possible.
Running up the ramp before he has warpgate finished with 3 zeals and a stalker, he only has 3 zealots!
Adel hits with his initial four zealots about 30 seconds before his stalkers arrive, as that is the timing that you need to be precise with on hitting the enemy. This should hit before warpgate finishes (unless there is an insane rush distance or something). Attacking like this with four zealots is impossible for two stalkers to pick off before your own two stalkers arrive, and will likely persuade your opponent to spend chronoboost on their gateways rather than on their warpgate tech, thus delaying their four warpgate push.
If you feel like you can overwhelm him and just win, keep chronoboosting from your two gateways, then add on two or three more so you have 4-5 warpgates once your own warpgate gets researched.
Ideally you want to at this point delay his warpgate tech, and kill probes. I'm usually able to get away with a 10 probe lead at this point in time.
If he ends up finishing warpgate while you are in his base, and you don't think it will be worth your remaining army to just attack probes while dieing, go ahead and retreat back to your natural (explained momentarily).
Expanding You have a couple options while expanding. First, you can expand while you are attacking with your three zealots and two stalkers, following this up with two more gateways and a forge. This will allow you to have 4 warpgates worth of production (to match your enemy's), along with a couple cannons at your natural. A single cannon is usually sufficient if you've been able to knock some probes out. You really cannot skip this cannon! These cannon(s) are extremely cost efficient, so much so that a cannon will be able to protect your natural better than a stalker, or a zealot. The cannon is also great for detection against DT rushes or builds.
Keep that cannon alive!
Your second option is to add on your two additional gateways, and then expand. This delays the expansion but allows you combat a 4 warpgate rush if you weren't able to deal sufficient damage. Also, if you add on your warpgates before expanding, in the case that you can't hold your expansion you can cancel the nexus and fall back up your ramp. Worst case scenario: you end up with more probes than the other guy, and 4 warpgates. I wouldn't recommend transitioning into 2 gate robo, as you won't have the vespene to support robo units.
Extra Resources Since you'll be taking a very quick expansion, you'll have a greater income than usual, and as such you are allowed leeway in what you spend your money on. Since you already have a forge, it's great to start chronoboosting +1 weapons once your cannon(s) are up.
After you have a decent saturation of minerals at your natural you can add on as many assimilators as you like. I usually like to add on all three all at once, and then throw down a twighlight council. The twilight council is usually the best avenue to choose, as you already have a ratio of 3:3:1 in terms of gateway units, the 1 being sentries (explained in the Key Notes section). I prefer a transition into mass blink stalkers followed by archons.
Transitioning After a couple production cycles once your natural is fairly saturated you should be able to dominate in a head on battle. From here, you can expand or tech to anything of your liking. I prefer to get blink stalkers and about 4 archons. The archons are used to tank enemy fire (preferably collosus fire), and do pretty darn well vs zealots due to splash damage. This goes great if the enemy went one or two base collosus, since you can tank with the archons and blink into the collosus and snipe them. This works well since on two base with stalker production with 4 assimilators as you'll have an excess in vespene.
Another alternative would be to go with mass wargpates after you take a third base, and harass with multiple warp prisms, or just go in with one massive assault warp prisming into the back of his base.
Transitioning from this build is really open ended, since if you did it successfully against a 4 warpgate you should come out ahead.
Against Robo Builds
HuK tries a collosus push against Adelscott!
Honestly, I've never played anyone that's gone with some sort of robo opening. This is because when players see your intial two gateways, they are expecting mass zealots, and they rush to match your gateway count. Once they realize you aren't zealot alling they switch to 4 gate. I can just imagine an early push of 3 zealots and two stalkers destroying a robo build since only one immortal should be able to get out in time, which is a huge investment at this point in the game.
Key Things to Note - Since you are utilizing a mineral disparity between you and your opponent as your advantage, you are going to want only a couple sentries. You should have a ratio of about 3:3:1 of zealot stalker sentry, until you add on additional assimilators.
- Your cannon is also essential for detecting dark templar, so place it so it has vision of your ramp so that you can FF the ramp and block dark templars, if necessary.
- If you fail to deal significant damage with your first attack you will need to either add on additional cannons at your natural, or skip the natural entirely.
- Target key pylons powering multiple buildings, or probes, with your initial attack. If your units are going to die no matter what (perhaps his warpgate finished while you were in his base and you failed to retreat in time), then die while shooting down his probes instead of his army. Shooting his probes will delay future warpgate units from ever appearing!
- If your opponent has zealots target firing your cannon, use a FF or two on your cannon so the zealots end up ramming into the FFs, thus being a waste of minerals momentarily.
- Don't nine pylon scout, as this build should be safe against a 2 gate (Adelscott states that it's safe vs proxy 2 gate in the VOD against WhiteRa). If you do decide to nine scout it should cost you an entire zealot.
- The effectiveness of this build sharply decreases if you try to use it on a map like Shakuras Plateau or Xel Naga Caverns. On Shakuras the rush distance in large, and on Xel Naga your natural is too wide for cannons to be of much use.
Why this Works This build works for a couple reasons. Most players when seeing you perform this build will go along with the "standard" response, as in they are simply going 9 pylon 12-13 gate 14-15 assimilator. Once they see your second gateway, they also add on a gateway -usually after they lay down a cybernetics core (unless their core was going to be late due to poor execution on their part). At this point the enemy can either mine gas and try to stalker your zealot allin (because it looks like a zealot allin variation for a moment), or they will pull probes off of their vespene and try to match you in your supposed zealot production. Either way you come out ahead, as you'll have two stalkers along with your first push, then you'll also have a natural and 4 warpgates, which would destroy them if they had pure zealots.
Assuming they keep mining vespene (and most people will), they'll have quite a few less minerals since you delayed your assimilator, and this is good news for you, since you'll have more minerals to expand even though your army should be of greater value anyways. Your attack (on most maps) should hit before warpgate finishes and you should be able to deal significant amounts of damage to their economy, thus forcing them to regain their probe count before mounting their four warpgate attack. If they don't repair their probe count they won't be able to produce at full capacity their warpgates allow.
Also, this build will destroy anyone trying to 4 warpgate without reacting to your early aggression, since the attack hits before warpgate is researched.
Replays (more may be added as I collect them) and VODs This is me on the NA ladder vs someone going for a korean 4 warpgate build! I won! I think Adel's build hard counters the korean 4 warpgate.
This replay is of me playing vs a Protoss who quickly popped out three sentries to cover their ramp. I simply expanded and laid my cannons down -expecting a 4 gate to hit me hard. He ended up trying to DT expand, which failed due to the cannons.
This is a replay of me playing on the NA ladder on Steppes of War. I nine scouted, which I advise against as it looks like Adel skips this scout as well (see Key Notes). However, my initial attack deals a lot of damage and the rest of the game is mine to lose.
AdelScott vs HuK on Lost Temple. Note how few sentries Adel gets, and note when he starts +1 and lays down his twilight council. This is actually a different variation, but he still fast expands and uses a cannon, he just doesn't go with early aggression this game.
AdelScott vs HuK on Metalopolis. This is a great example of early aggression, and gateways before the nexus. I actually think it would have been optimal to lay the nexus down first, although Adel was just playing it safe. This replay shows an excellent example of how to defend against a quick collosus push response from the opponent.
0:44 ~air close pose - he fears whitera's prism strat~
1:02 This is his favorite build (2gates) and it's safe vs proxy gate.
1:09 So he knows that he can't harass with the first zealot because of WhiteRa's build order with fast stalker + zeal.
1:23 But he know that he can make a good push with a 4z+2s, with a perfect timing. Then he can expo or (oO') 5gates stalkers.
*sending 4 z + chrono 2 stalkers.*
1:56 While (before?) his push he makes warp upgrade+nexus push can prevent from 4gate/rush and scout for some proxy.Also, he must care about proxy pylone in base.
*speaking about the fight - kill stalker, kill probes => he knows that he is ahead*
*adding +3gates*
*whitera's push*
At this point he knows that he had a better eco, so he wants to "burie the game" with more probes => nexus gold
he upgrade 1/0 then 2/0
little push, to scout WhiteRa's tech (colossus) so he makes council => blink
when blink up, push with proxy pylone.
Adelscott vs MouzMana on Scrap Station VOD. Adelscott tries to set up and saturate his expansion, although the 4 gate allin from Mana ends up winning him the game. Still, this game gives a good show on how the build is supposed to run, and how to respond to heavy pressure. As far as I can tell Mana won because he completely cut probes and I'm assuming Adelscott didn't, and I believe Mana had slightly better micro and possibly slightly better unit composition.
There is a vod of Adel doing this against WhiteRa at DreamHack. Here is the link Adel Vs WhiteRa, it's commented by Adel himself but it's in French. I believe there is a vod (in english) of this game but couldn't find it...
On December 14 2010 09:16 AgaYeahh wrote: There is a vod of Adel doing this against WhiteRa at DreamHack. Here is the link Adel Vs WhiteRa, it's commented by Adel himself but it's in French. I believe there is a vod (in english) of this game but couldn't find it...
Wonderful, thanks! Hope you don't mind me adding this into the OP
Sounds interesting! But what if they scout the 2nd gate late, and instead of responding by matching gate count (since it's going to be too late anyways) they respond with a forge after gate with a chronoed sentry? At that point if your zealot attack doesn't come they'll scout your build and tech directly to robo and hit you with collossi?
Edit: how map dependent is this strat, I guess would be my main question.
On December 14 2010 09:44 sikyon wrote: Sounds interesting! But what if they scout the 2nd gate late, and instead of responding by matching gate count (since it's going to be too late anyways) they respond with a forge after gate with a chronoed sentry? At that point if your zealot attack doesn't come they'll scout your build and tech directly to robo and hit you with collossi?
Edit: how map dependent is this strat, I guess would be my main question.
If they forge and cannon, then you can spend an equal amount of resources expanding. Think of the money they invest in their cannon as free money to you -as long as you don't attack the cannon.
By the time collosus come out you should have enough stuff to just overpower them. Keep your units spread in an arc, and keep them from touching each other to reduce collosus splash damage. If you deal damage to probes, then they shouldn't be able to overwhelm you with collosus. Take a look at the metalopolis replay with Adelscott.
The build isn't map specific, but it sure helps you out if your choke is narrow. Although, I've done this build on Xel Naga caverns successfully before
I saw the build and was about to mention that I'm skeptical of the 2gate -> assim, but then I read the rest of the OP and was genuinely impressed by the opening. Now I'll have something fun to try out in this otherwise god-forsaken PvP matchup.
Pretty Interesting build. As a platinum ranked player I would hope people had outgrown the whole 4gate thing but unfortunately not, I busted this Build out and have won a few PvP games. Looking at this build i figured it would never work but it works splendidly. Hope you all the best of luck against the dreaded 4 gate, this build will turn out quite effective ^^
I've tried this out a couple of times today in my PvP.
The first game was a wash, didn't really have any sense of how it should 'feel', but it gave me a good place to start. I was able to inflict damage, but I didn't add Gates in time after my natural and some mismicro cost me the game.
The 2nd match I had a better idea of how this should work. It was on Blistering Sands, and being able to pressure his rocks helped me feel safe expanding off the first 5 units. Anyways, I went Gate -> Forge -> Gate, stayed on 1 gas and was able to execute the build really well.
Thanks a lot for sharing this. I highly recommend trying this out for yourself. It'll take a couple games to get the hang of how it should play out, but it certainly holds against the openings I faced.
1)ADelscott vs huk @ lt does not belong in this thread. Not delayed gas. Not 2gate to core.
2)can add this:
3)Lets be clear about what adel's build is: 4zealot/2stalker. chrono out 1st lot seems to be something you added. No BO or unit timings given in this guide. Still, good effort, nice thread.
3)Lets be clear about what adel's build is: 4zealot/2stalker. chrono out 1st lot seems to be something you added. No BO or unit timings given in this guide. Still, good effort, nice thread.
Oh you're right. I didn't realize that even though I've watched that replay so many times. I modified my post to make note that he didn't delay gas, he did some sort of variation instead.
But Adel's build doesn't look like it's always 4 zealot 2 stalker, I believe I've seen three initial ones with optional follow up zealots.
Yeah I said the chrono zealot is optional, it's something I added in.
I haven't perfected the build (I don't have the skill to perfect it), and I don't think I'm skilled enough to develop a strict BO, or extremely in-depth timings. However, thanks a lot for the feedback.
how would this do vs the 5stalkers in 5 min build?
the BO i use: *save chrono boosts 9pyl -> scout and harass workers like ****, but DO KEEP THIS PROBE ALIVE! 10 gate 12 gas -> 2 probes to gas 13 core -> 3rd probe to gas. Chrono warp research. 15 2nd gate 16 1st stalker --> will get you to 18/18 food 18 proxy pylon with the scout probe (hide it well. This one doesn't have to be right next to their base as you can just build another proxy pylon close to the fight when you're pushing) 18 2nd stalker 20 3rd stalker 22~23 build 3rd gateway, and chrono 1st&2nd gateway while they transform to warpgate (to make the conversion faster)
move out with the stalkers warp in 4th and 5th stalker at the proxy
My best time is 5:20~ for 5 stalkers & 3 warp gates.
Doing a 9pyl, 9gate, 11 gas, 12 core, 14 2nd gate, etc. will get stalkers out in 5:00 min but with fewer probes and it is for 2 warpgates, not 3.
On December 14 2010 13:42 CecilSunkure wrote: I haven't perfected the build (I don't have the skill to perfect it), and I don't think I'm skilled enough to develop a strict BO, or extremely in-depth timings. However, thanks a lot for the feedback.
Actually I think it's easier than that. When I see something I like I just find replays where it was used and then just note the times/food counts of the major stuff and voila you have a basic build order that's already been perfected by a pro.
If someone doesn't beat me to it, i'll do this tomorrow if I get a chance.
I just finished reading the entire guide and it looks pretty good overall, but one question regarding the very beginning. How are we supposed to do damage with out first zealot (ie kill a pylon or 2 probes), and how are we supposed to do damage with our first push of 3 zealots and 2 stalkers? I understand the expanding part, but I don't see how the initial push can do any sort of damage in practice.
On December 14 2010 15:24 Chairman Ray wrote: I just finished reading the entire guide and it looks pretty good overall, but one question regarding the very beginning. How are we supposed to do damage with out first zealot (ie kill a pylon or 2 probes), and how are we supposed to do damage with our first push of 3 zealots and 2 stalkers? I understand the expanding part, but I don't see how the initial push can do any sort of damage in practice.
Most of the time it won't do dmg cause of force field. and thats what you should get if you scout this build because this build capable of a fast 2gate stalker push. What i started doing is a 1 gate expand (after 1zealot and 1 stalker), then adding on 2 more gateways and a forge. You can poke in with your stalker/zealot and sometimes punish a player who skipped the first zealot, otherwise you can just turn around.
On December 14 2010 15:24 Chairman Ray wrote: I just finished reading the entire guide and it looks pretty good overall, but one question regarding the very beginning. How are we supposed to do damage with out first zealot (ie kill a pylon or 2 probes), and how are we supposed to do damage with our first push of 3 zealots and 2 stalkers? I understand the expanding part, but I don't see how the initial push can do any sort of damage in practice.
Most of the time it won't do dmg cause of force field. and thats what you should get if you scout this build because this build capable of a fast 2gate stalker push. What i started doing is a 1 gate expand (after 1zealot and 1 stalker), then adding on 2 more gateways and a forge. You can poke in with your stalker/zealot and sometimes punish a player who skipped the first zealot, otherwise you can just turn around.
The initial zealot is completely optional. Against an opponent planning to 4 gate they'll be saving up chronoboost. If you scout them and are pretty sure they just want to 4 warpgate you, sending an initial zealot can cause a little bit of havoc and be worth it. I have a replay of doing such a thing up there. I should clarify this point in the original post. Really, it's not apart of the build order and I just added it in, since it's useful vs unskilled players.
300 vespene needed to forcefield a player off a ramp this early in the game is an enormous investment. I'd say it's very safe to immediately expand if you see a player with 3 or 4 sentries this early in the game, as they won't be able to combat your zealot stalkers (hence them forcefielding in the first place).
On December 14 2010 16:03 Craton wrote: This is a very misleading title. Delayed gas or late gas, sure, but it's the farthest thing from "no gas."
this will make PvP fun again! just a question cause i can't try it atm: does this still work if you spawn in cross positions and the opponent walls in?
really looking forward to trying this build, thanks a lot!
On December 14 2010 09:16 AgaYeahh wrote: There is a vod of Adel doing this against WhiteRa at DreamHack. Here is the link Adel Vs WhiteRa, it's commented by Adel himself but it's in French. I believe there is a vod (in english) of this game but couldn't find it...
Wonderful, thanks! Hope you don't mind me adding this into the OP
I'm french, can't watch the replay right now, I'm at work. If you can't find an english comment of this one, I could translate. Interested? The strat seem pretty interesting, secure and original.
On December 14 2010 16:03 Craton wrote: This is a very misleading title. Delayed gas or late gas, sure, but it's the farthest thing from "no gas."
Please try a "true" no gas mass zealots build and tell us how it works out then .
I tried this a little bit and it's actually quite easy to get used to, as it's flexible enough that even if they expect the 3 zealot + stalker push and respond with FF, you are still ahead.
I don't really see this working. I mean it's a weaker economic build than the standard 1 gate cyber and relies on a lot of what-ifs to pull ahead. What-ifs that can be easily scouted since the scouting probe should be alive to see EVERYTHING.
@CecilSunkure I appreciate your post as I appreciate all other posts which try to find alternative openings to counter 4gw play and mass colossus play. I am going through a period when I hate playing PvP and posts like this make me happy
I watched your delta quadrant replay (3rd in the list) and I can't help pointing out some mistakes you did, not to criticize you but to give you something in return:
1. killing that first pylon was the result of your opponent incompetence. he trapped your probe with his buildings and then he trapped his own zealot to kill the probe, pretty retarded imo. you should have first killed some probes before killing the pylon which made his zealot go free. he was pretty vulnerable
2. later you suicided 2 zealots in his base (with the proxy pylon) without even taking a second to look in his base and see what he's got
3. given the huge damage you did to his economy I don't think you needed to make so many cannons to defend an eventual push
On December 14 2010 20:50 Crappy wrote: This build order is pretty old now, I was doing it every PvP ( high diamond range ) But ATM a adapted 4gate build order just rape it so hard.
Even adelscott has stopped to do it.
This.
This build made me trust in the future of PvP. I did it for a few weeks/months now.
But in fact... this fails hard against a 4gate. I mean... really hard.
Even blink stalkers can rape you. Sure, you kill some probes. But it's far from being enough.
On December 15 2010 00:07 Hane wrote: this build seems to have big problems to deal with 4gates all in (1gaz), cf 3 last Adel's replays on sc2.rep
And this is also true (btw I love u Hane).
Except if you're really better than your opponent, you just die.
Try to explain me with a straight face that you can counter a 4gate 1gaz with 2gate + gaz + late WG.
On December 14 2010 15:57 gr8ape wrote: youve been watching too much day9
Please address the topic for discussion, rather than throw out wasteful nonconstructive comments as you so desire.
To address the topic:
This is a great OP, I can't wait to look at the replays. I'll post any replays I can get while trying this out.
Just wondering, what level do you play at?
I think he means that Day9 has unrealistic hopes about expanding in PvP, and does not have proper respect for the game ending power of the all-powerful colossus in all matchups.
In fact Colossi only become really strong in PvP AFTER you expand, that's why I'm personally absolutely opposed to any type of builds that involve expanding (in pvp,) because macro play in PvP simply leads to mass colossus.
What day9 really under-estimates is how strong warp gate are at eliminating the defender's advantage, and how far building a nexus really sets you back.
Well it's certainly an interesting opening. It banks entirely on how much damage you are able to inflict with your initial zealot/stalker push. If you aren't able to inflict significant damage you are at risk to his counter push w/ his earlier warp gate tech.
That said the point about your sac'ing your initial zealot to kill a few probes is great. It is almost always worth doing if your opponent does not make an initial zealot of the own and can really mess with WG rushes since they cut probes so early. I've been doing this for a while now and I'm surprised why more protoss players do not do this.
Expanding and cannoning is indeed very weak in PvP early on. The problem with using any build that includes a cannon for defense is that a cannon is actually NOT that cost effective in PvP. The first cannon costs 300 minerals as you need to otherwise useless forge for it (upgrades aren't that good in PvP) and cannons don't do that great against stalkers. 300 minerals invested in stalkers or zealots does way more then 1 cannon.
As for this strat, it entirely depends on how close you are. In close position rallying units is alright (steppes or close pos meta/LT). In any other situation rallying units takes way too long though and a simple 4 gate will mutilate it. Noone 4 gates without units before warpgate anymore anyway (2 or 3 stalkers while you get WG is common now) and fast warpgate builds simply demolish this if the base distance is too long.
For small maps this is a fine strat but a good protoss can simply adapt with a defensive 3 or 4 gate really. Simply chrono units from the first gateway, defend a bit and then hit back when warpgate finishes (which should be about 20 secs earlier).
On December 14 2010 09:16 AgaYeahh wrote: There is a vod of Adel doing this against WhiteRa at DreamHack. Here is the link Adel Vs WhiteRa, it's commented by Adel himself but it's in French. I believe there is a vod (in english) of this game but couldn't find it...
Wonderful, thanks! Hope you don't mind me adding this into the OP
I'm french, can't watch the replay right now, I'm at work. If you can't find an english comment of this one, I could translate. Interested? The strat seem pretty interesting, secure and original.
That would be so awesome! Please do it!
On December 15 2010 00:05 MayorITC wrote: I don't really see this working. I mean it's a weaker economic build than the standard 1 gate cyber and relies on a lot of what-ifs to pull ahead. What-ifs that can be easily scouted since the scouting probe should be alive to see EVERYTHING.
Well, if this is scouted then they're probably going to just add on another gateway and start chronoboosting troops from it so they survive aggression from you, since two gateways will from you will be a sign of early aggression. That just means their warpgate is being delayed, and if they went pylon gateway assimilator then they'll have quite a few less minerals because of their earlier vespene mining, and their earlier cybernetics core. Just try it out and take a look at all the sources I've cited.
On December 15 2010 00:07 Hane wrote: this build seems to have big problems to deal with 4gates all in (1gaz), cf 3 last Adel's replays on sc2.rep
I'm not sure which ones you're talking about. The last PvP I could find were from Gosu cup a long time ago, and I've already linked some of those multiple times in the OP.
On December 14 2010 20:50 Crappy wrote: This build order is pretty old now, I was doing it every PvP ( high diamond range ) But ATM a adapted 4gate build order just rape it so hard.
Even adelscott has stopped to do it.
Can you explain why this fails so hard to a 4 gate? Can you explain why modifications can't be made in order to keep the build viable?
On December 15 2010 02:49 Markwerf wrote: Expanding and cannoning is indeed very weak in PvP early on. The problem with using any build that includes a cannon for defense is that a cannon is actually NOT that cost effective in PvP. The first cannon costs 300 minerals as you need to otherwise useless forge for it (upgrades aren't that good in PvP) and cannons don't do that great against stalkers. 300 minerals invested in stalkers or zealots does way more then 1 cannon.
As for this strat, it entirely depends on how close you are. In close position rallying units is alright (steppes or close pos meta/LT). In any other situation rallying units takes way too long though and a simple 4 gate will mutilate it. Noone 4 gates without units before warpgate anymore anyway (2 or 3 stalkers while you get WG is common now) and fast warpgate builds simply demolish this if the base distance is too long.
For small maps this is a fine strat but a good protoss can simply adapt with a defensive 3 or 4 gate really. Simply chrono units from the first gateway, defend a bit and then hit back when warpgate finishes (which should be about 20 secs earlier).
Upgrades are actually key in PvP. I've lost games just because of upgrades. You're able to afford the forge and cannon(s) because you have more minerals in general than the other player. Two cannons is much more effective than two stalkers or three zealots, when you are defending your natural. Plus, you need the cannons in case the other guy techs to dark templar.
There is a VOD on youtube of Adel doing this against a 4 gate by MouzMana, and he almost holds it off. These are pros playing, and if Adel has been able to take both wins and losses, as well as close losses, the build should still be viable. Adel looked like he lost because he didn't seem to be cutting any probes and Mana was allin, Mana hit hardest before the cannon finished, and Adel had some major mis-micro at one point.
If the rush distance is long, you can: force the other the other player to chronoboost units from gateways, thus delaying their wargpate; force the other player to invest large amounts of vespene early on on sentries; force the other player to spend a cycle or two from their warpgate production in their base instead of outside yours; you can also search for nearby pylons or on your way with your initial push or with troops following up your initial push. You are right in that a close distance will be helpful, but I wouldn't go and say this whole strategy should be dumped when the rush distance is really long.
And to anyone who asked, I'm currently 2300+ diamond on the NA server.
On December 14 2010 20:50 Crappy wrote: This build order is pretty old now, I was doing it every PvP ( high diamond range ) But ATM a adapted 4gate build order just rape it so hard.
Even adelscott has stopped to do it.
Can you explain why this fails so hard to a 4 gate? Can you explain why modifications can't be made in order to keep the build viable?
Hard to explain it with words but here we go.
This build presents a very high production rate in the beginning, that why it looks so impressive. You look at the timing and think "omfg, this is huge".
A "normal 4gate" is quite the opposite. It power up production facility and CB warp gate upgrade. The production rate at the beginning is very low (something like ... 2 units). But from the point warp gates kicked in, the production is off the chart. You reinforce 4 units, and each wave is faster than a regular gateway production cycle.
So, you'll agree that if you don't intend to attack IMMEDIATELY at the timing, you are at a loss in a few secondes/minute. Hence, this relies on doing HUGE damages with the push. And I mean... HUGE damages. Killing 4/5 probes is sometimes far from being enough and you'll die to a counter attack once you'll be happy in your base, sitting on your expansion with a bunch of stalkers.
The size of maps is also an issue, but I won't talk about it here. The "sentry issue" is also a problem, as if you encounter an "economic" 4gate with 2 gaz, you'll never be able to get up the ramp and from then on, you'll be behind economically.
Oh, and by the way, you look like a fool (no, not with those buns) when you move out and face 3 stalkers. In open area, they can dance (3>2), kill yours and then focus down the zealots. Of course, you prevent that by retreating but loose maybe 1 zealot in the process. And it's basically gg.
In conclusion... nothing saves this build. It was a great idea, it was smart, but... no. As said, even Adel seems to be backing off.
Yes, he wins quite a lot it, but often, it is because he microes far much better than his opponent.
The other ones are sometimes because of the rock/paper/cissors of PvP. In the whitera game, he was INCREDIBLY greedy. Really really greedy. So, Adel was able to make huge damage.
On December 14 2010 20:50 Crappy wrote: This build order is pretty old now, I was doing it every PvP ( high diamond range ) But ATM a adapted 4gate build order just rape it so hard.
Even adelscott has stopped to do it.
Can you explain why this fails so hard to a 4 gate? Can you explain why modifications can't be made in order to keep the build viable?
So, you'll agree that if you don't intend to attack IMMEDIATELY at the timing, you are at a loss in a few secondes/minute. Hence, this relies on doing HUGE damages with the push. And I mean... HUGE damages. Killing 4/5 probes is sometimes far from being enough and you'll die to a counter attack once you'll be happy in your base, sitting on your expansion with a bunch of stalkers.
Oh, and by the way, you look like a fool (no, not with those buns) when you move out and face 3 stalkers. In open area, they can dance (3>2), kill yours and then focus down the zealots. Of course, you prevent that by retreating but loose maybe 1 zealot in the process. And it's basically gg.
Well, if you pop into their base before warpgate finishes, they'll most likely be spending chronoboost on their gateways, thus not on their warpgate research -delaying warpgate even further. If you do kill kill four probes that's 200 minerals plus whatever amount those probes were to mine in the future. I'm going to need some more practice with this build in PvP so I can get some replays, but I believe if you delay their warpgate or kill some probes, then back off back to your natural you should have your four warpgates and a cannon building. In the game vs WhiteRa Adel slacked off on his macro and placed his two additional gateways late. Plus, once you have two nexus up you have double the amount of chronoboost, and have a greater income, thus being able to pump out of your four warpgates faster all the while having a cannon, and probes to pull just in case.
Try to get some replays of why this build can't work, and I'll try to get better replays of me playing. Since SC2 is so unintuitive (as most RTS games), we'll need to actually go and test out what we're talking about.
On December 14 2010 20:50 Crappy wrote: This build order is pretty old now, I was doing it every PvP ( high diamond range ) But ATM a adapted 4gate build order just rape it so hard.
Even adelscott has stopped to do it.
Can you explain why this fails so hard to a 4 gate? Can you explain why modifications can't be made in order to keep the build viable?
So, you'll agree that if you don't intend to attack IMMEDIATELY at the timing, you are at a loss in a few secondes/minute. Hence, this relies on doing HUGE damages with the push. And I mean... HUGE damages. Killing 4/5 probes is sometimes far from being enough and you'll die to a counter attack once you'll be happy in your base, sitting on your expansion with a bunch of stalkers.
Oh, and by the way, you look like a fool (no, not with those buns) when you move out and face 3 stalkers. In open area, they can dance (3>2), kill yours and then focus down the zealots. Of course, you prevent that by retreating but loose maybe 1 zealot in the process. And it's basically gg.
Well, if you pop into their base before warpgate finishes, they'll most likely be spending chronoboost on their gateways, thus not on their warpgate research -delaying warpgate even further. If you do kill kill four probes that's 200 minerals plus whatever amount those probes were to mine in the future. I'm going to need some more practice with this build in PvP so I can get some replays, but I believe if you delay their warpgate or kill some probes, then back off back to your natural you should have your four warpgates and a cannon building. In the game vs WhiteRa Adel slacked off on his macro and placed his two additional gateways late. Plus, once you have two nexus up you have double the amount of chronoboost, and have a greater income, thus being able to pump out of your four warpgates faster all the while having a cannon, and probes to pull just in case.
Try to get some replays of why this build can't work, and I'll try to get better replays of me playing. Since SC2 is so unintuitive (as most RTS games), we'll need to actually go and test out what we're talking about.
Dude... I see you are full of good intentions there. And, please, go on.
I just warn you that you may be... disappointed.
I've been using that build for weeks/months now, let's say around your level (2200+ even if I don't ladder but only tournaments/leagues/customs with team mates). Everyone told me my build sucked. That it had a lot of flaws. I didn't listen to them and was so optimistic I wanted to go all the way with it, again and again.
But today I full realise how flawed this really is. And I back off, as even the inventor of this build is doing.
This said, have fun with it. You'll have amazing games of true macro and positionning, especially against colossi heavy players.
sry for posting so, but you can find same loses on SoW, Metalo... ^^' Didn't see if someone translate Adel's vod... So i wrote most importants comments with my bad english ^^' + Show Spoiler +
0:44 ~air close pose - he fears whitera's prism strat~
1:02 This is his farouvite build (2gates) and it's safe vs proxy gate.
1:09 So he knows that he can't harass with the first zealot because of WR's BO with fast stalker+zeal.
1:23 But he know that he can make a good push with a 4z+2s, with a perfect timming. Then he can expo or (oO') 5gates stalkers.
*sending 4 z + chrono 2 stalkers.*
1:56 While (before?) his push he makes warp upgrade+nexus push can prevent from 4gate/rush and scout for some proxy.Also, he must care about proxy pylone in base.
*speaking about the fight - kill stalker, kill probes => he knows that he is ahead*
*adding +3gates*
*whitera's push*
At this point he knows that he had a better eco, so he wants to "burie the game" with more probes => nexus gold
he upgrade 1/0 then 2/0
little push, to 'scout withera's tech (colossus) so he makes council => blink
where 4gates > adel's build. He loses all his games vs 4gates :/
With the actual meta game (4gates/3gate blink) this build is 70% auto lose.
Adel could have actually won this game. He made a few key errors:
1) He did not attack immediately with his Zealots. Mana was powering really hard and the Zealots would have forced him to make more units or suffer heavy damage, either of which delays the 4 gate.
2) He chrono'd and double-pumped probes after his expansion got up. He already had slightly more income with just a few probes at the expansion. All he had to do was chrono his gateways and spend his money, which he did not.
3) He didn't spend his freaking money. He just had to make a ton of units and delay for another minute or 2 and Mana wouldn't be able to do anything. He could have even pulled probes and still been ahead, probably.
Its no secret that day9 has a hardon for AdelScott. Adelscott is a great player, but he can get away with builds like this because of his superior micro. Its so rare I see anyone on his level micro-wise. When he loses, its normally due to macro/decision making. As such, I have to take his builds with a grain of salt. Makes me wonder what he is capable of if he played a more standard style, which are popular for a reason and not just because of a lack of discovery. Can this build get you a safe expansion in a mirror matchup? No. Its a mirror matchup, theres no such thing as expanding with no advantage. So while it might be nice to adopt Adel's style, you will take some build order losses because no build is perfect and delaying the gas constricts you to achieve a goal of getting an unsafe expansion up. If you can apply enough pressure without outright losing and get your expansion up, you should have a massive advantage. If you can't, you make it your opponent's game to lose.
This is a good post, thank you for it, but delaying gas is a playstyle preference for a high micro player so this isn't revolutionary. I expect to see void rays alot PvP next patch so this will have to stand up to that test to prove its viability.
The build is pretty nice, but if you want the most optimal timing, you lose out on a fast scout and a wall. However, it works very well on a lot of maps. Obviously close maps is where it shines, but it also works well on 4 player maps with potential to spawn close. All that means is that you have a higher chance to win outright, but also have the build do less minimal damage at cross locations. Like how I beat a plat player 4-gating on LT with this build, and I don't even main Protoss. (Although I do want to main random ultimately) Some more ideas on transitioning would be good too.
On December 15 2010 05:24 Hane wrote: sry for posting so, but you can find same loses on SoW, Metalo... ^^' Didn't see if someone translate Adel's vod... So i wrote most importants comments with my bad english ^^' + Show Spoiler +
0:44 ~air close pose - he fears whitera's prism strat~
1:02 This is his farouvite build (2gates) and it's safe vs proxy gate.
1:09 So he knows that he can't harass with the first zealot because of WR's BO with fast stalker+zeal.
1:23 But he know that he can make a good push with a 4z+2s, with a perfect timming. Then he can expo or (oO') 5gates stalkers.
*sending 4 z + chrono 2 stalkers.*
1:56 While (before?) his push he makes warp upgrade+nexus push can prevent from 4gate/rush and scout for some proxy.Also, he must care about proxy pylone in base.
*speaking about the fight - kill stalker, kill probes => he knows that he is ahead*
*adding +3gates*
*whitera's push*
At this point he knows that he had a better eco, so he wants to "burie the game" with more probes => nexus gold
he upgrade 1/0 then 2/0
little push, to 'scout withera's tech (colossus) so he makes council => blink
when blink up, push with proxy pylone.
Thanks a ton for the translation! I'll add this to the OP, and tidy up the sentences a little. Thanks!
I'm still trying to get some really good replays of me playing. I'm a bit busy, but I'll get them soon
Edit: Done! Added translation with a couple mistakes corrected! Thanks again Hane!
I've been trying something similar to this in PvP: a 1Gate FE. I'm still very iffy about it.
I do a quick 2 Zealot, 1 Stalker push, expanding at 28 food and immidiately getting to 4 Gates after the Nexus goes down.
Agasint a quick double gas or skipped Zealot, this push usually does enough damage for me to hold the expansion. If I kill about 4-5 Probes, delay mining and kill the initial unit waiting at their ramp, I feel pretty comfortable holding, and from there its my game to lose.
Like above posters have said, this style all comes down to the first push doing alot of damage. It's good agasint people that can't figure out whats coming, but it is very easily scouted.
On December 14 2010 20:47 MegaPerle wrote: I'm french, can't watch the replay right now, I'm at work. If you can't find an english comment of this one, I could translate. Interested? The strat seem pretty interesting, secure and original.
That would be so awesome! Please do it!
Ok, I'll do it tonight (france time, in about 3-4h).
On December 14 2010 20:47 MegaPerle wrote: I'm french, can't watch the replay right now, I'm at work. If you can't find an english comment of this one, I could translate. Interested? The strat seem pretty interesting, secure and original.
That would be so awesome! Please do it!
Ok, I'll do it tonight (france time, in about 3-4h).
Hum, reread the first post, seems it's already done
Is this strategy viable against zerg ? i mean, i've been trying only the 15 nexus and guineapig variation of this build, and something that is really lacking is the early pressure ( and i kinda suck at multitasking and microing phoenixes ) so i was looking for some kinda of build that could provide me some kind of pressure and "fast" expanding, it seems that this opening could work on some maps but it's just theorycrafting.
I will try it, but do someone had tried this against zerg ?
i believe your main problem vs zerg will be the same as vs protoss. You will be vulnerable to a heavy roach counter push (like WhiteRa did on the french vod) until your warpgate upgrade done.
This isn't anything overly special - it's basically a 2gate build - and I've done plenty of them before I don't think this is a build you would want to run every game but it's certainly a nice build to have stashed away in your arsenal - in particular I find 2gate builds stronger on maps like Steppes and terrible on maps like Shakuras. And there's always the fun zealot/cannon push that you can do, abusing your superior army to get cannons in hahah (replay)
Anyway. People are right in saying a conventional 4gate blows this out of the water - so long as they are capable of micro they won't die and then they will be able to quickly overwhelm you with warped in units. Those first 4 zealots need to do some damage for this build to work against that. Similarly, a hard tech build will crush this as well since he will have more Colossus than you earlier than you. So again, first 4 zealots need to do something for the build to work.
Fortunately, on the right map this is usually possible (i.e. set one zealot to attack one stalker, 2 zealots per zealot and the rest hunting probes). Definitely a valid build, but just gotta pick the right map and make sure it's somewhat unexpected.
this isnt anything new but i really appreciate you making a great post, its well constructed and hits all the points that it needed to. just wanted to say good quality posting
It would be totally sick if you could work on a liquipedia page for this. The protoss strategy section is starting to look minuscule in comparison to the other races. But this is a sick build that should be accessible to everyone :D
Well. I've been trying this build basically every game now to get away from the every game 4 gate that PvP seems to turn into. A couple things that I noticed though from my fiveish games using this build.
Most importantly it loses to zealot rushes where my opponent goes 2 gate and pumps out about 6 - 7 when i have 4 with two stalkers being made. Then my opponent reinforced wave after wave until he had mass stalkers which didn't help me
Secondly I would recremend what to do if the push fails. In my loss against the zealots I had a cannon going up then cancled it to produce another gateway (which in turn lost it for me). So if you could add a bit more on base defence or continued aggression if it fails before you get to their base.
But overall I really like this build athough it basically is a two gate push it is much easier to remember your basic steps of pylon gate pylon gate pylon Cyber / assimilater so thanks very much for making it seems so simple
I too have been in love with AdelScott's delayed 2gate, since i first laid eyes upon it.
The key strength to this build, is that it is economically superior to most 4-gates, and i therefore have a different approach on the whole attacking part.
Since I have the economic lead (expansion in the making), my priority is to trade units for units, thus delaying the inevitable counter significantly. With a unit trade planned ahead, i can cut not probes but pylons, because i know those inital 6 units (12 food) will be destroyed within a resonable timeframe, thus letting me get further ahead in the mineral war, I am waging upon my enemy.
Here is my adapted build order for a bit superior economy:
9 Pylon-scout --> chrono as soon as pylon is finished 12 Gate --> chrono workers 15 Pylon --> chrono workers (save chronoes from now on) 17 Zealot 20 Gateway 20 Gas 21 Zealot 24 Pylon 25 Core 26 Zealot x2 (chrono out the one zealot you started latest) (when these zealots finish move out on the map so your faster stalkers can catch up) 30 Pylon 30 Stalker x2 --> chrono (these should line up near perfectly with core finishing 250 minerals and 100 gas) (attack as soon as the stalkers finish) @ 50 gas start warpgate, cant really remember that timing right now 34 Probe 35 Zealot 37 Probe 38 Stalker 40 Nexus + Pylon near nexus
This is usually when the battle goes down, continue to pump units and workers off of one nexus DO NOT rally units, you are not all in with a nexus in the making.
You should prioritize killing enemy units, and if they retreat try to pick off pylons to supply block him, you want to greatly delay the counter push. Do not engage workers, this might seem counterintuitive, but if he brings workers just dance around his base, you will delay his mining for free! When he pulls workers back to mineral line, re engage any unit and pylons again. Remember, these are sacrificial units, you do not want to keep them, because you WILL get supply blocked if you dont start losing them soon
You should have been able to see everything your opponent made in his base during this attack, so no need to overreact to possible dts or voidrays or whatnot.
add gates, gas and other production structures as you see fit from now on. I usually go with 2 extra gates and a robo and then adding a stargate later on, bringing me to a total of four gates, plus a robo and a stargate off of 2base3gas.
Sorry for the wall of text, but just thought i would give my 2 cents!
I know, I have too. I just took the broad strokes of Adell's style and made it my own. This is just what i have found work best for me. I am nowhere near as godly as adell with my micro, and it is way easier to just trade armies whilst macroing up at home.
On December 14 2010 08:59 CecilSunkure wrote:Honestly, I've never played anyone that's gone with some sort of robo opening. This is because when players see your intial two gateways, they are expecting mass zealots, and they rush to match your gateway count. Once they realize you aren't zealot alling they switch to 4 gate. I can just imagine an early push of 3 zealots and two stalkers destroying a robo build since only one immortal should be able to get out in time, which is a huge investment at this point in the game.
I think you underestimate just how tough the micro is going to be for you. One Immortal is better in every way than two Stalkers, except for one less range and slightly slower movement speed. It hurts Zealots just as quickly, and will obliterate the Stalkers if they don't stay out of range.
(Okay, that's not quite true -- the Immortal will die one Zealot strike sooner than a pair of Stalkers. But that's compensated for in the fact that the Immortal's DPS isn't cut in half when it's at half health)
How would this do against the pure-zealot 4/5 gate warp-in? I'm talking about the 10pylon10gate, 50 gass for warpgate and then everything onto minerals-pylon at the enemy ramp build. It gets the warpgate research done at roughly 4.50 or something, which is hella-fast, but in the stages before that it only has 1 zeal going around.
On December 29 2010 18:55 Promises wrote: How would this do against the pure-zealot 4/5 gate warp-in? I'm talking about the 10pylon10gate, 50 gass for warpgate and then everything onto minerals-pylon at the enemy ramp build. It gets the warpgate research done at roughly 4.50 or something, which is hella-fast, but in the stages before that it only has 1 zeal going around.
I've actually used this build and survived against the Korean 4 Warpgate allin. You use your initial army from your 2 warpgates to kill off proxy pylons. If you can't in time, then what I did was I just added on two more gateways and researched warpgates while microing probes away from the zealots, and microing my army to kill his without taking losses. I actually use my first buildings to form a wall next to my minerals every game, so it was hard for him to get the zealots into my mineral line. I wish I had the replay... People watching my stream saw me defend it ^_^
On December 17 2010 12:01 drgonzhere wrote: It would be totally sick if you could work on a liquipedia page for this. The protoss strategy section is starting to look minuscule in comparison to the other races. But this is a sick build that should be accessible to everyone :D
On December 29 2010 18:55 Promises wrote: How would this do against the pure-zealot 4/5 gate warp-in? I'm talking about the 10pylon10gate, 50 gass for warpgate and then everything onto minerals-pylon at the enemy ramp build. It gets the warpgate research done at roughly 4.50 or something, which is hella-fast, but in the stages before that it only has 1 zeal going around.
I've actually used this build and survived against the Korean 4 Warpgate allin. You use your initial army from your 2 warpgates to kill off proxy pylons. If you can't in time, then what I did was I just added on two more gateways and researched warpgates while microing probes away from the zealots, and microing my army to kill his without taking losses. I actually use my first buildings to form a wall next to my minerals every game, so it was hard for him to get the zealots into my mineral line. I wish I had the replay... People watching my stream saw me defend it ^_^
So you actually won to a 4 fast warpgate+proxy pylons with only 2 gates + very late 2 more gates and a delayed warp upgrade ?.. Oo; And in anyways, if you can counter it doin' this you'll probably not be ahead, but behind ~~ if you don't use this Bo to fast expand but making 4g it doesn't give you any advantage because you just doin' the same build than your opponent (you just making it in a different and later way) :\ I dunno if this Bo is still good since, in ladder, every single protoss is doin' this shit 4g kor rush (I'll probably ask to Adel himself :\).
If you have differents replays where i can see how really counter it with Adel's Bo I'm aware :>
@HvidTiger : Don't give a build order without any replays pls ;D
On December 29 2010 18:55 Promises wrote: How would this do against the pure-zealot 4/5 gate warp-in? I'm talking about the 10pylon10gate, 50 gass for warpgate and then everything onto minerals-pylon at the enemy ramp build. It gets the warpgate research done at roughly 4.50 or something, which is hella-fast, but in the stages before that it only has 1 zeal going around.
I've actually used this build and survived against the Korean 4 Warpgate allin. You use your initial army from your 2 warpgates to kill off proxy pylons. If you can't in time, then what I did was I just added on two more gateways and researched warpgates while microing probes away from the zealots, and microing my army to kill his without taking losses. I actually use my first buildings to form a wall next to my minerals every game, so it was hard for him to get the zealots into my mineral line. I wish I had the replay... People watching my stream saw me defend it ^_^
So you actually won to a 4 fast warpgate+proxy pylons with only 2 gates + very late 2 more gates and a delayed warp upgrade ?.. Oo; And in anyways, if you can counter it doin' this you'll probably not be ahead, but behind ~~ if you don't use this Bo to fast expand but making 4g it doesn't give you any advantage because you just doin' the same build than your opponent (you just making it in a different and later way) :\ I dunno if this Bo is still good since, in ladder, every single protoss is doin' this shit 4g kor rush (I'll probably ask to Adel himself :\).
If you have differents replays where i can see how really counter it with Adel's Bo I'm aware :>
@HvidTiger : Don't give a build order without any replays pls ;D
Well you have a lot of probes. I also had really good sim city with my buildings that most players don't use. If you do survive you should definitely be ahead since the allin leaves the enemy protoss with only 18 probes mining.
Stalkers help a lot as well. I'm not saying it's easy, but I definitely won and there isn't really anything else for the enemy protoss pulling the k4warp to improve, except laying a pylon within my mineral line -however I would have just targetted it down first.
You could also easily go with 2 gate forge and place cannons in your mineral line. If you have 2 stalkers and two cannons, and are chronoing out zealots it's very easy to hold of warpins of 4 zealots.
I'm willing to play custom games with anyone that wants to try to k4warp me while I try to use Adel's build, just to provide some replays for people to see. But like I said I'm away from my computer for a couple days, and currently can't.
Well you have a lot of probes. I also had really good sim city with my buildings that most players don't use. If you do survive you should definitely be ahead since the allin leaves the enemy protoss with only 18 probes mining.
Many protoss can make k4warp push without doin' an all-in just making constant probes and fast warp upgrade I guess :\
You could also easily go with 2 gate forge and place cannons in your mineral line. If you have 2 stalkers and two cannons, and are chronoing out zealots it's very easy to hold of warpins of 4 zealots.
I'm agree with that, but it doesn't seem to be an Adel's Bo after all :p
I'm willing to play custom games with anyone that wants to try to k4warp me while I try to use Adel's build, just to provide some replays for people to see. But like I said I'm away from my computer for a couple days, and currently can't.
I really would like to try with you but we aren't in the same server Y_Y
I have only done this build like 5 times but everytime i did it i have won and everytime it has been used against me i have lost good build ty for making the guide.
Cecilsunkure : yeah, this Bo works pretty well vs 3g robo, but do you have replay against a strong kor4warp ? I've seen many replays of adel against mana or naniwa doin' 4g, and adel is just no matched :/ (and I'm worrying if this bo works on ladder since most of ppl are doin' 4g)
The only time I see this build lose really convincingly is against a 3 collosus timing push off of one base. However, I was able to defeat this using a voidray speedlot transition, which may work extremely well once the new patch kicks in.
I'm more worried about your opponent skill -.- he could make a 4gate (again it was a 3g robo without full chrono on warp upgrade), put pylone next to your natural and break it just by behind (your photons just defend in front) as would do most of 2500 protoss players ~~ :\
standard PvP start: send 9 pyl scout -> kinda necessary to spot cheese and to scout out opponent's base on 4p map
12 gate 14 gas 15 pyl
(on 2 player map, if you want more econ, do a 12gate scout or 13gate scout. Late scout = riskier, but you end up with more minerals, so your choice)
at this point, the probe scout should've spotted the opponent's build (even on 4p map, the probe will get to the last starting pos by 17 food at the latest).
If you see no gas, lots of probes/chrono on nexus (meaning it wasn't a early double gate zealot push), and a 2 gateway, you know this is Adel's build.
just drop a 2nd gate instead of core, then make zealots. Keep the probe scout circling in enemy base to see if he's changing build or not and to see when his zealots are moving out.
build cyb core around the time he does and get the 2nd gas. Constantly make zealots and stalkers.
Adel's build will attack by now. If he attacks, just defend from above your ramp (you have equal army size but you have the defender's advantage), and if he tries to pull back, just chase his army with yours and pick as many units off as possible. He can't fight you at this point because your stalkers took a few free shots when he tried to move up the ramp and the fight is taking place close to your base and you will win the battle with faster reinforcements. If he commits to the fight, you'll win the battle, and then you can just straight up push with a 4-gate follow up.
If his army managed to retreat back onto his ramp without suffering a high casualty, just camp his nat and delay the expo from going up. Get robo up and fast colossi it.
You have the gas advantage so you can spare the gas to warp in a few sentries if he went 4gates to push you back. Your colossi will come out much faster than his.
If Adel's build got the nexus up and has cannons by the time you pushed his army back to the nat, you have the gas advantage with the 14 gas so just do a 3gate colossus push. Your colossus will be out before his 2-base econ can kick in and his colossus will be out much later than yours.
On January 01 2011 05:37 CecilSunkure wrote: He was 2850.
Doesn't mean anything, prove : he was'nt pretty good.
ELLO = ratio win/lose + number of games + points + ligue. If you just give me one of those factor, he doesn't mean that the guy will be good or not -.-
Having 2900 points with 3k games and 50% ratio = noob
Having 2900 points with 150 games and 70% win = gosu
:\
As you said, in your replay, you didn't play well and yet you won pretty easily because this guy wasn't thinking well >.<
On January 01 2011 06:37 burninglegionx wrote: How to win against Adel's build
standard PvP start: send 9 pyl scout -> kinda necessary to spot cheese and to scout out opponent's base on 4p map
12 gate 14 gas 15 pyl
(on 2 player map, if you want more econ, do a 12gate scout or 13gate scout. Late scout = riskier, but you end up with more minerals, so your choice)
at this point, the probe scout should've spotted the opponent's build (even on 4p map, the probe will get to the last starting pos by 17 food at the latest).
If you see no gas, lots of probes/chrono on nexus (meaning it wasn't a early double gate zealot push), and a 2 gateway, you know this is Adel's build.
just drop a 2nd gate instead of core, then make zealots. Keep the probe scout circling in enemy base to see if he's changing build or not and to see when his zealots are moving out.
build cyb core around the time he does and get the 2nd gas. Constantly make zealots and stalkers.
Adel's build will attack by now. If he attacks, just defend from above your ramp (you have equal army size but you have the defender's advantage), and if he tries to pull back, just chase his army with yours and pick as many units off as possible. He can't fight you at this point because your stalkers took a few free shots when he tried to move up the ramp and the fight is taking place close to your base and you will win the battle with faster reinforcements. If he commits to the fight, you'll win the battle, and then you can just straight up push with a 4-gate follow up.
If his army managed to retreat back onto his ramp without suffering a high casualty, just camp his nat and delay the expo from going up. Get robo up and fast colossi it.
You have the gas advantage so you can spare the gas to warp in a few sentries if he went 4gates to push you back. Your colossi will come out much faster than his.
If Adel's build got the nexus up and has cannons by the time you pushed his army back to the nat, you have the gas advantage with the 14 gas so just do a 3gate colossus push. Your colossus will be out before his 2-base econ can kick in and his colossus will be out much later than yours.
you know if you play normally you will do just fine... you can 4wrpgate vs this build and still come out on top, you just have to spend your gas in a sentry over 2 stalkers, and use the ff to buy you enough time for the chrono boosted warpgate tech to come in.
tried this several game now and i really like it. since most ppl rely so heavily on warpgates and chronoboosting it a lot, u can do some serious dmg just before their warpgate finishes. i got the best results if i just target probes and pylons instead of their few units. it can only get a bit dangerous if u build your cannon a bit late and he is very stalker heavy and makes an immediate counter attack after u lost your units in the push. its very important to keep the damn cannon alive and if in doubt of getting broken just add 1 or 2 more.
Someone was asking if this could withstand the korean 4 warpgate, and well, yes. I actually think this build hard counters the korean 4 warpgate build: http://www.mediafire.com/?zpyxl8w8a1yo3dk
I'm confused how this is a no gas PvP or an econ build. The replay where you took that screenshot, (Adel vs. Huk on LT) Adel did the regular gate, assimilator, core.
On January 07 2011 15:14 KingofGods wrote: I'm confused how this is a no gas PvP or an econ build. The replay where you took that screenshot, (Adel vs. Huk on LT) Adel did the regular gate, assimilator, core.
If I recall correctly, there were on cross positions on LT. Since they were on cross positions it must have been more beneficial to Adel to do a variant of his build order rather than the timing attack. I believe he went with some sort of 2 gate expand. It's the same principals however, just a variant. I really should just watch the replay again before posting, but I hate reloading to an earlier version
I've tried this a couple times and it seems pretty good but one time I lost with it was to a forge, cannon defense. He scouted my second gate so he threw up a forge and got 2 cannons up by the time of my first push. Should I just back off and accept those two cannons and the forge as sufficient damage? Also, maybe I just played sloppily and I should have pushed earlier as this happened pretty fast. I'm curious because there must be a way to defend this and I wonder if a cannon defense would be good.
The only way I can see this build hurting me at all is if the initial zealots are able to take out my proxy pylon (as it's usually undefended for 10-15 sec as my stalker-stalker-zealot-zealot squad marches over).
On January 23 2011 12:34 OsoVega wrote: I've tried this a couple times and it seems pretty good but one time I lost with it was to a forge, cannon defense. He scouted my second gate so he threw up a forge and got 2 cannons up by the time of my first push. Should I just back off and accept those two cannons and the forge as sufficient damage? Also, maybe I just played sloppily and I should have pushed earlier as this happened pretty fast. I'm curious because there must be a way to defend this and I wonder if a cannon defense would be good.
Yes, you're only goal with the initial push is to slow down his 4-gate so you can expand. If he builds a forge and cannons he's not going to be able to 4-gate you until well after your nexus is up and you are defended. I wouldn't attack with the zealots nor would I even build the follow up stalkers if you see a forge.
On January 23 2011 14:56 CCalms wrote: The only way I can see this build hurting me at all is if the initial zealots are able to take out my proxy pylon (as it's usually undefended for 10-15 sec as my stalker-stalker-zealot-zealot squad marches over).
The zealots should be leaving his base at 4:30-4:45 so I don't think you will have even started your proxy pylon (unless you are not timing it to complete at the same time as your WG). Given that he is spending all of his chrono and money on units rather than on 2 extra gates and warpgate I don't think there is any way you will have a 2 stalkers and 2 zealots when he arrives at your base if you are aggressively 4-gating, unless you are on a huge map which this build is obviously not designed for.
I think pretty much 100% of the time I force my opponent to warp in a round of units at home to defend his base if he is 4-gating.
My friend told me this is his new PvP standard and I was really skeptical. He is a Gold that could easily be Plat and probably diamond so I told him to use it against me. It really is fantastic and makes you feel aggressive not cheap. I massed zealots thinking he was 2 gating and then tried to break his front. The real grey area is the expansion but there is a lot of potential here. His only problem was macroing and I eventually won, but that first push is really a crazy looking thing when you barely have warp gates
On January 23 2011 17:35 dlax wrote: My friend told me this is his new PvP standard and I was really skeptical. He is a Gold that could easily be Plat and probably diamond so I told him to use it against me. It really is fantastic and makes you feel aggressive not cheap. I massed zealots thinking he was 2 gating and then tried to break his front. The real grey area is the expansion but there is a lot of potential here. His only problem was macroing and I eventually won, but that first push is really a crazy looking thing when you barely have warp gates
this is my standard on a lot of maps and i am 2750 diamond so it at least works at a mediocre level.
Wow, this strat. has literally given me an ~86% w/l ratio v p for the past two weeks. I just have one problem--I can't seem to get out my zeals before 4:56. I know it says in OP to attack with FOUR zealots at 4:45, but i just can't seem to do that. Also, I encounter a sentry at the top of the ramp when I poke-- How do they get one out so fast?! :O
On January 23 2011 22:12 CodECleaR wrote: Wow, this strat. has literally given me an ~86% w/l ratio v p for the past two weeks. I just have one problem--I can't seem to get out my zeals before 4:56. I know it says in OP to attack with FOUR zealots at 4:45, but i just can't seem to do that. Also, I encounter a sentry at the top of the ramp when I poke-- How do they get one out so fast?! :O
He went zealot --> sentry.
I don't think this strategy works well in cross-positions or close-air, but it definitely takes over close-positions. I missed a timing attack and lost my army in SoW before, and despite losing my army I expanded. *facepalm*
Found out that it's not good expanding even if you got map control if you lost your army because the opponent usually rushes double colossi and attacks.
No gas builds suck for protoss imo. The problem lies in the fundamental economic strength of protoss, warpgate and chronoboost. Because of chronoboost you reach saturation very quickly which makes it ineffecient to NOT mine gas and because of warpgate tech it is rarely useful to not get that cybercore.
With a normal build this is really easy to hold. You simply scout and see a lack of gas but do see a inbase gateway. This always means zealot pressure, with either another gateway in base or at some proxy spot. To respond you can simply get 2 zealots from your gateway with chronoboost while your cybercore is making (cut probes very shortly to do so). Then keep defending with zealots and 1 stalker while adding a 2nd gate and get warpgate tech. It is easy to defend 2 gate zealot pressure with 1 gate if the guy is streaming zealots from his base, it simply takes too long for them too reach you. 1 stalker also gives you a huge micro advantage and by the time warpgate kicks in you'll be ahead in units and can simply crush him. Cannons are notoriously ineffective in PvP as 1 cannon effectively costs 300 and doesn't do enough while 2 cannons already costs 450 and leaves you way too much behind if the other guy also simply FE's.
The only way this strat can somewhat work is when the walking distance for your zealots is really short, ie close position metalopolis. Steppes is already way too long (takes more then 30 secs for a zealot). Zealot pressure can work sometimes but it's better with 1 inbase gate and 2 delayed proxy gates then pumping from all 3.
On January 24 2011 00:41 Markwerf wrote: No gas builds suck for protoss imo. The problem lies in the fundamental economic strength of protoss, warpgate and chronoboost. Because of chronoboost you reach saturation very quickly which makes it ineffecient to NOT mine gas and because of warpgate tech it is rarely useful to not get that cybercore.
With a normal build this is really easy to hold. You simply scout and see a lack of gas but do see a inbase gateway. This always means zealot pressure, with either another gateway in base or at some proxy spot. To respond you can simply get 2 zealots from your gateway with chronoboost while your cybercore is making (cut probes very shortly to do so). Then keep defending with zealots and 1 stalker while adding a 2nd gate and get warpgate tech. It is easy to defend 2 gate zealot pressure with 1 gate if the guy is streaming zealots from his base, it simply takes too long for them too reach you. 1 stalker also gives you a huge micro advantage and by the time warpgate kicks in you'll be ahead in units and can simply crush him. Cannons are notoriously ineffective in PvP as 1 cannon effectively costs 300 and doesn't do enough while 2 cannons already costs 450 and leaves you way too much behind if the other guy also simply FE's.
The only way this strat can somewhat work is when the walking distance for your zealots is really short, ie close position metalopolis. Steppes is already way too long (takes more then 30 secs for a zealot). Zealot pressure can work sometimes but it's better with 1 inbase gate and 2 delayed proxy gates then pumping from all 3.
Pylon + Cannon = 250*. Add the forge in and it's 400 minerals for 1 initial cannon.
On January 24 2011 00:41 Markwerf wrote: No gas builds suck for protoss imo. The problem lies in the fundamental economic strength of protoss, warpgate and chronoboost. Because of chronoboost you reach saturation very quickly which makes it ineffecient to NOT mine gas and because of warpgate tech it is rarely useful to not get that cybercore.
With a normal build this is really easy to hold. You simply scout and see a lack of gas but do see a inbase gateway. This always means zealot pressure, with either another gateway in base or at some proxy spot. To respond you can simply get 2 zealots from your gateway with chronoboost while your cybercore is making (cut probes very shortly to do so). Then keep defending with zealots and 1 stalker while adding a 2nd gate and get warpgate tech. It is easy to defend 2 gate zealot pressure with 1 gate if the guy is streaming zealots from his base, it simply takes too long for them too reach you. 1 stalker also gives you a huge micro advantage and by the time warpgate kicks in you'll be ahead in units and can simply crush him. Cannons are notoriously ineffective in PvP as 1 cannon effectively costs 300 and doesn't do enough while 2 cannons already costs 450 and leaves you way too much behind if the other guy also simply FE's.
The only way this strat can somewhat work is when the walking distance for your zealots is really short, ie close position metalopolis. Steppes is already way too long (takes more then 30 secs for a zealot). Zealot pressure can work sometimes but it's better with 1 inbase gate and 2 delayed proxy gates then pumping from all 3.
thank you so much. I hate 4warpgate (I dont use it at all) and i dont respect many of the people i ladder against who use it when I look at my match history losses, its all p all doing 4warpgate adelscott has brought pvp out of the dark ages for me.
On January 24 2011 00:41 Markwerf wrote: No gas builds suck for protoss imo. The problem lies in the fundamental economic strength of protoss, warpgate and chronoboost. Because of chronoboost you reach saturation very quickly which makes it ineffecient to NOT mine gas and because of warpgate tech it is rarely useful to not get that cybercore.
With a normal build this is really easy to hold. You simply scout and see a lack of gas but do see a inbase gateway. This always means zealot pressure, with either another gateway in base or at some proxy spot. To respond you can simply get 2 zealots from your gateway with chronoboost while your cybercore is making (cut probes very shortly to do so). Then keep defending with zealots and 1 stalker while adding a 2nd gate and get warpgate tech. It is easy to defend 2 gate zealot pressure with 1 gate if the guy is streaming zealots from his base, it simply takes too long for them too reach you. 1 stalker also gives you a huge micro advantage and by the time warpgate kicks in you'll be ahead in units and can simply crush him. Cannons are notoriously ineffective in PvP as 1 cannon effectively costs 300 and doesn't do enough while 2 cannons already costs 450 and leaves you way too much behind if the other guy also simply FE's.
The only way this strat can somewhat work is when the walking distance for your zealots is really short, ie close position metalopolis. Steppes is already way too long (takes more then 30 secs for a zealot). Zealot pressure can work sometimes but it's better with 1 inbase gate and 2 delayed proxy gates then pumping from all 3.
First of all: Did u read the OP? The "no gas" build actually gets gas but only at 20/21 supply and a core at 24 supply. In case u did realise that plz proceed to the following:
Every normal opener will put u in a position to defend against that push if u react immediately to what u scout. However, without adding a second gate asap and probably probe and gas cutting, u will suffer the damage ur opponent intended to inflict. What makes this build so effective is the perfect timing and use of ur resources resulting in 4fast zealots backed up by the 2nd wave of chrono boosted stalkers which arrives shortly after the zealots hit u. On Steps, I will be in ur base at least 40 secs before ur warpgate finishes probably some secs more if u use ur chronos on ur first gate. Since u cannot match the production of the no gas build, the following will happen: Let's say I don't want to hardcore micro, I just need to do the following: 2 zealots on ur zealots, one chasing ur stalker and one with shift+attack on ur probes. This will keep ur stalker busy, cost u probes or a lot of mining time and will have softenen up ur remaining units to be an easy target for my stalkers. Then I settle with the damage done and retreat with at least 2 stalkers sometimes even with a zealot before u can warp in enough units to kill me off. The damage has been done, I can now proceed and outmacro u.
On January 24 2011 00:41 Markwerf wrote: No gas builds suck for protoss imo. The problem lies in the fundamental economic strength of protoss, warpgate and chronoboost. Because of chronoboost you reach saturation very quickly which makes it ineffecient to NOT mine gas and because of warpgate tech it is rarely useful to not get that cybercore.
With a normal build this is really easy to hold. You simply scout and see a lack of gas but do see a inbase gateway. This always means zealot pressure, with either another gateway in base or at some proxy spot. To respond you can simply get 2 zealots from your gateway with chronoboost while your cybercore is making (cut probes very shortly to do so). Then keep defending with zealots and 1 stalker while adding a 2nd gate and get warpgate tech. It is easy to defend 2 gate zealot pressure with 1 gate if the guy is streaming zealots from his base, it simply takes too long for them too reach you. 1 stalker also gives you a huge micro advantage and by the time warpgate kicks in you'll be ahead in units and can simply crush him. Cannons are notoriously ineffective in PvP as 1 cannon effectively costs 300 and doesn't do enough while 2 cannons already costs 450 and leaves you way too much behind if the other guy also simply FE's.
The only way this strat can somewhat work is when the walking distance for your zealots is really short, ie close position metalopolis. Steppes is already way too long (takes more then 30 secs for a zealot). Zealot pressure can work sometimes but it's better with 1 inbase gate and 2 delayed proxy gates then pumping from all 3.
There is nothing wrong with this build. Adelscott, a professional player, along with a good amount of higher level ladder players have been using this with success. Even if you go along with the "standard response" of adding a second gateway after your core, you'll be behind because the delayed cybernetics core allows the Adel build to invest in their gateways before core thus allocating available resources at that moment to an optimal outlet; delaying the vespene in the Adel build makes for a significant vespene disparity that a standard opening cannot match. So, if you add on a second gateway you'll be behind in minerals and probes though you'll have a slight advantage in vespene, which doesn't even matter because the Adel build transitions nicely into a 5 warpgate structure, where you have 3-4 warpgates on constant production until your own warpgate is up. This means you can hit before the enemy has warpgate up, match their production while they have warpgates, then outproduce them with 5 warpgates. In the event that you deal significant damage with the initial push, you can even cut production of units while warpgate is being researched and expand.
It was to the french spirit Lan, the final was ToD vs Adel both protoss, they play 2 Bo3 and Adel just did this build on the first game (that he lose). Most of time he does gate core.
the only problem ive had with this build is that the opponent's scouting worker stays alive and sees EVERYTHING. then this build just becomes laughable.
On February 14 2011 08:58 lilky wrote: the only problem ive had with this build is that the opponent's scouting worker stays alive and sees EVERYTHING. then this build just becomes laughable.
There is nothing wrong with the Adel openning. It has it's weaknesses (long rush distances being the main one), but it is still very strong when done properly. I still win matches all the time using this opening.
singlehandedly the easiest way to beat a korean 4gate... if you get scoued late and they go for the 1 pylon in base 18/18 you can put zealot pressure on... or even just chronoboost out those 3 zealot 2 stalker before they can begin their warpins... really really strong against the strategy deemed to be difficult by a majority of players
This build is horrible why would you make a guide for it? This is not a viable PvP build at higher levels you're going to get owned by the standard 3gate PvP play into robo. No offense but it's true.
Yeah, build isn't great when it is scouted, all the other guy does is cut a few probes and drop his second gate, by the time you get there you can barely do any damage :/
Getting scouted or not isn't a problem, since it's a build designed to get a good amount of economy while being able to beat any kind of cheese. It's one of the safest economic opening in PvP, but its main problem being the rush distance.
Safest doesn't mean it's the best ! It's just a good way to pressure your opponent, since you'll be on the offensive, but yeah... This build got troubles against 3 gates robo, or even one sentry FFing the choke, but you should be able to scout it, and you will be able to respond. Day9 daily #175 even featured it, and exposed its good and bad sides.
The build isn't safe. If the rush distance is too big it will get completely demolished by a good a good 4 gate. The other guy only has to boost on his first gate 1 or 2 times to get an early stalker and will hose this completely. Adel rarely does this build and when he does the build on bigger maps he is rarely succesfull with it. Typically a build that is only good on really close spawns, the rest of the time you'll automatically lose if you're opponent answers correctly imo (ie. gets enough units to defend but still gets up 3 or 4 warpgates quickly).
The attack at 4ish mins with 4 zeals is kidna un-realistic. That is basically when you 'move out' with the zealots. By the time you get to your opponents base they will have 2 stalkers out able to kite, while their warpgate is researching.
What I dont like, is when my opponent goes 1z2sentry and full chrono on warp-gate tech, hides proxy pylon and FF's the ramp when the timing push comes. warpgate comes in and he warps 4 zeals and pushes in your base. using the FF to buy him time for a second warp-in to save his own base.
You delay your warpgate and are most vulnerable while you are attacking. If everything fails you have nothing to fall back on during the duration your warpgate / 2 additional gateways are completing.
My ideal counter to this weakness is to cut an additional chrono on your probes, to leave you at 75% when the cyber comes in. 2 Chronos on the stalkers will leave you with 25% giving you the ability to chrono your warpgate the second you reach 50 gas. Build 1 zealot out of your gateway, and then put down a forge, and second gas. When warpgate hits 50% ish, place 2 more gateways, and pump out a sentry.
If the damage dealt in the timing push is good, then I delay the 2 gateways and put down my Nexus, and place 2 cannons instead. (ramp, natural). On maps like Xel-naga, the rush distance is nasty, and the natural is very open, so i put down 1-2 cannons between the nexus and the ramp and put pylon wall behind the minerals. You expose your mineral line when you do this, but deny the enemy any chance to get up your ramp. If they circle around your nexus then you flank, and they get squished between your army and a pylon wall.
Key note for the 2g expand: When your nexus comes in, build 2 workers out of each building then cut probes to squeeze in a 5th gateway / constant warp-in. I like to build 1-2 sentries, but no more. The gas is needed for stalkers, and the sentries sole purpose is to FF their ramp or shield your army if they go stalker heavy.
I've had no problems with 3g robo, only 4 wrpgate with this build, When i see the robo, I put down the council and pump out more zealots incase of immortals. When blink comes in I switch back to stalkers and timing push when 1-2 colossus come out.
In a 4 wrpgate if your opponent comes out even or ahead on the first push, you are at a loss.
idk what you guys are talking about. if this build gets scouted (they see 2 gates) almost everyone i play builds cannons, bunkers, or stays in their base because they think i have more units than them early on. if you do this type of opening and poke in just to show you have more units than them (assuming you keep up with macro) you can safely expand with just one or two cannons. once you get an expo up you can transition into whatever or macro off 5-7 gates with upgrades and overrun the opponent. this build is fun. (i'm diamond on both accounts i play on)
On February 15 2011 22:48 Markwerf wrote: The build isn't safe. If the rush distance is too big it will get completely demolished by a good a good 4 gate. The other guy only has to boost on his first gate 1 or 2 times to get an early stalker and will hose this completely.
You have no clue what you're talking about. SC2 is patching and I don't have time to go grab a replay, but what I wanted to say is that the last 6 or so people that said this opening sucks obviously suck themselves. How would you not be safe with 4 zealots and 2 stalkers to deny a proxy pylon?
If you expand and failed to do economic damage you deserve to lose the game. The wiki page pretty clearly states you can opt for a 5 Gate instead of an expand transition. I've done this multiple times (every time I can't deal economic damage) and I don't lose to a straight up Four Gate unless I executed the build improperly.
Edit: About scouting, it doesn't matter if you're scouted. By being aggressive you get to set the pace of the game. If the other guy had a pre-set build in mind he will have to deviate in order to match your production, and often times this will result in him cutting probes while you don't. So what if he matches your four zealots and 2 stalkers? You don't get to expand, but that doesn't mean the build sucks; you suck at using the build.
On February 14 2011 08:58 lilky wrote: the only problem ive had with this build is that the opponent's scouting worker stays alive and sees EVERYTHING. then this build just becomes laughable.
There is nothing wrong with the Adel openning. It has it's weaknesses (long rush distances being the main one), but it is still very strong when done properly. I still win matches all the time using this opening.
This is what happens when the build is correctly executed. My zeals arrived only moments before his sentry finished, which would have been the end of my pressure.
this build has changed my PvP. i used to rip my hair out (until i shaved my head that is) over 4 gating. it felt so swingy and stupid. however the adel build is really solid. it times nicely against 4 gate or even a robo strat, and puts you at an advantage to win later on. i actually win against protoss opponents without going all-in which is a super nice feeling
The Liquipedia page says to not scout after placing the 9 pylon. If this build is strong when your spawn positions are close and weak when they are far, what's wrong with scouting on 9 and only doing this build of they are in close positions?
On February 20 2011 08:41 AirbladeOrange wrote: The Liquipedia page says to not scout after placing the 9 pylon. If this build is strong when your spawn positions are close and weak when they are far, what's wrong with scouting on 9 and only doing this build of they are in close positions?
That's actually what I do in PvP now
I immediately bring my probe back over to mine minerals.
On February 20 2011 09:23 lilky wrote: what happens if they see you going 2gate pressure and decide to put their own 2gates down and make units?
defenders have an advantage because of rush distance
Then you tech, because your build is more econ friendly, and they're 2 gates won't be as optimized. Or you maybe be able to get away with an expo, but I personally don't like ever risking an early expo in pvp.
I've been using a similar version, just making three zealots and following up with two stalkers. While pressuring, drop two more gates for four total and expand if I can do some eco damage.
This build is probably much more optimized than mine though, I'll post back with results from testing.
On February 15 2011 21:58 blue001 wrote: This build is horrible why would you make a guide for it? This is not a viable PvP build at higher levels you're going to get owned by the standard 3gate PvP play into robo. No offense but it's true.
I LOLed. apparently Adelscott is not a high level player. also, on what server is 3gate into robo a standard build? that would lose to a 4gate, which is the ACTUAL standard in PvP. if your opponent is doing a fast warpgate opener, they will not have enough units by the time your attack hits with the adel build, which is why it's so effective
On February 15 2011 21:58 blue001 wrote: This build is horrible why would you make a guide for it? This is not a viable PvP build at higher levels you're going to get owned by the standard 3gate PvP play into robo. No offense but it's true.
I LOLed. apparently Adelscott is not a high level player. also, on what server is 3gate into robo a standard build? that would lose to a 4gate, which is the ACTUAL standard in PvP. if your opponent is doing a fast warpgate opener, they will not have enough units by the time your attack hits with the adel build, which is why it's so effective
I also disagree with the first post, about this not being viable on high levels. However, the 3 fast stalkers into robo build is becoming the new standard for PvP - i haven't had much experience vs that build with Adel's no gas, so I'm not able to comment on it.
ToD beat Adelscott to a Lan not long time ago 3-1 ad said "I think Adel's 2 gate build is not appropriate for pvsp, I trained against this, that's why I've lost only 1 game but I think I just played bad on this one.
On March 05 2011 03:05 Acridice wrote: This build counters the 3 stalker rush. You're going to have 4 zealots vs their 3 stalkers with your 2 stalkers on the way for reinforcements.
It only counters 3 Stalker rush if they scout you and still proceed to get 3 Stalkers. With the 2 late second gateway, they can defend this fairly easily, even in close position (they might lose 2/3 probes at worst). Don't think this build is any good when people know how to stop it, especially when they 4gate right after.
On March 05 2011 03:05 Acridice wrote: This build counters the 3 stalker rush. You're going to have 4 zealots vs their 3 stalkers with your 2 stalkers on the way for reinforcements.
It only counters 3 Stalker rush if they scout you and still proceed to get 3 Stalkers. With the 2 late second gateway, they can defend this fairly easily, even in close position (they might lose 2/3 probes at worst). Don't think this build is any good when people know how to stop it, especially when they 4gate right after.
The build is fine, because like the wikipedia page says, if you fail to do damage you can proceed with a 5 Gate to ward off the enemy 4 Gate. The 5 Gate should be able to out-produce an enemy 4 Gate, and at the very least break even with it with even more probes than the 4 Gater, meaning an easier time transitioning into whatever else you plan to.
Thinking of giving this a shot as a nice alternative to the usual drag of 4gating. How does this build hold up these days online (in light of popular strats/ new maps)?
well the 4 zealots are going to die killing no enemy units meaning your opponant will have 4 more units and better production than you until you can get your 3 additional gates up, which is probably 2 warp worth, considering thats 12 units that hes going to have on you, I don't see you holding the expo even with 3 cannons.
On March 21 2011 12:26 Came Norrection wrote: well the 4 zealots are going to die killing no enemy units meaning your opponant will have 4 more units and better production than you until you can get your 3 additional gates up, which is probably 2 warp worth, considering thats 12 units that hes going to have on you, I don't see you holding the expo even with 3 cannons.
Ignore this guy, he knows little to nothing about PvP as evident from his post.
On March 21 2011 12:26 Came Norrection wrote: well the 4 zealots are going to die killing no enemy units
I'm sorry but that just seems kind of silly. Even if you don't do super well with the zealots, I'd imagine you'd at least get them out. Theyre not going to have sentries that early.
On March 21 2011 12:26 Came Norrection wrote: well the 4 zealots are going to die killing no enemy units meaning your opponant will have 4 more units and better production than you until you can get your 3 additional gates up, which is probably 2 warp worth, considering thats 12 units that hes going to have on you, I don't see you holding the expo even with 3 cannons.
Ignore this guy, he knows little to nothing about PvP as evident from his post.
I love how people are still questioning whether this build is really viable. I've been using my own version of it for like 500 games now (3650 master) and it's great, at the moment I'm finally starting to reach the point where the other guy 4 gating means auto-win for me.
This build is really amazing. You can use it to secure a 2nd gas and transition into a 3 gate/4 gate + tech build because it straight up stops 4 gates, even if it stops killing people at a higher level. People are starting to do very nice 3 gate counters to the build on ladder though.
As for viability, I used it to beat Katari on ladder and my pvp usually sucks.
On March 21 2011 12:35 See.Blue wrote:So what do you think about this builds viability?
The build works if you do it right, especially on close positions.
I could easily see this working on close positions/medium positions (like Xel'Naga caverns), but how would you see this build working on a map like Typon peaks?
On March 21 2011 12:26 Came Norrection wrote: well the 4 zealots are going to die killing no enemy units
I'm sorry but that just seems kind of silly. Even if you don't do super well with the zealots, I'd imagine you'd at least get them out. Theyre not going to have sentries that early.
I don't see how 4 zealots are going to kill much more than a few probes or a zealot if the defender prepares accordingly by getting 2 gates and chrono to get 2 stalkers and 2 zealots as you can micro to minimalize any casualties.
On March 21 2011 12:26 Came Norrection wrote: well the 4 zealots are going to die killing no enemy units
I'm sorry but that just seems kind of silly. Even if you don't do super well with the zealots, I'd imagine you'd at least get them out. Theyre not going to have sentries that early.
I don't see how 4 zealots are going to kill much more than a few probes or a zealot if the defender prepares accordingly by getting 2 gates and chrono to get 2 stalkers and 2 zealots as you can micro to minimalize any casualties.
Don't worry. The other player won't be able to get both 2 zealots and 2 stalkers if you hit them with tight timings. On that note, you can send 2 zealots as fodder, and micro 2 zealots to kill probes. At some point if you haven't lost any zealots, it will be 4 zealots + 2 stalkers vs. something less.
I'll post a replay next time I do this build. I would like to note though, that the best way to execute this build, is to have one zealot chasing each of their stalkers, and send your remaining zealots to their mineral line while you wait for your stalkers to reinforce. When your stalkers get there, u can help your zealots kill their stalkers. It takes a lot of individual micro, but if you can execute it well, it is still a great build for close positions.
One thing I'm confused about is why you request replays post 1.3. Nothing has changed in 1.3 that would effect this build at all.
I actually just tried it impulsively in my mathcup. I didn't necessarily do it totally randomly. The map was shattered temple, and we spawned close positions. I just kind of figured I'd go for it. It worked out quite nicely and forced him to make excess lings to deal. I think it would be a great way to expand with a forge in PvZ after you make the initial 4z 2s.
The replay is honestly not worth watching. I play masters, but I sware this dude was like platinum gold calibur. There was a point where he had like 8-10 spines and 10 drones. I was LOL. This is also why I ask if anyone has tried it in PvZ cuz this game was not a good way to judge the validity.
I am of course restricting its use to close positions as I always do with this build. Anybody been working with this build in PvZ?
On April 07 2011 09:54 Acridice wrote: Has anyone tried this build vs PvZ?
I actually just tried it impulsively in my mathcup. I didn't necessarily do it totally randomly. The map was shattered temple, and we spawned close positions. I just kind of figured I'd go for it. It worked out quite nicely and forced him to make excess lings to deal. I think it would be a great way to expand with a forge in PvZ after you make the initial 4z 2s.
The replay is honestly not worth watching. I play masters, but I sware this dude was like platinum gold calibur. There was a point where he had like 8-10 spines and 10 drones. I was LOL. This is also why I ask if anyone has tried it in PvZ cuz this game was not a good way to judge the validity.
I am of course restricting its use to close positions as I always do with this build. Anybody been working with this build in PvZ?
Pepe's build is basically just this, he settled on a quick forge transition as well. Worth checking out imo.
On May 17 2011 05:46 Ghecko wrote: has anyone tried this build with the latest patch in PvP? (1.3.3) and if u did.. how does it fare against 2-3 gate robo/4 gate
Ive been losing to it a lot trying a 3 stalker into tech build so i would say its quite viable. It used to be good close position due to the warpgate time but even now on longer positions and maps with smaller ramps its quite good.
On May 17 2011 05:46 Ghecko wrote: has anyone tried this build with the latest patch in PvP? (1.3.3) and if u did.. how does it fare against 2-3 gate robo/4 gate
Ive been losing to it a lot trying a 3 stalker into tech build so i would say its quite viable. It used to be good close position due to the warpgate time but even now on longer positions and maps with smaller ramps its quite good.
But what about the decrease in sentry time? The build used to be done if they got the sentry out before you got up the ramp... now the sentry comes out faster. Warpgates come slower... maybe it balances out?
On May 17 2011 05:46 Ghecko wrote: has anyone tried this build with the latest patch in PvP? (1.3.3) and if u did.. how does it fare against 2-3 gate robo/4 gate
Ive been losing to it a lot trying a 3 stalker into tech build so i would say its quite viable. It used to be good close position due to the warpgate time but even now on longer positions and maps with smaller ramps its quite good.
But what about the decrease in sentry time? The build used to be done if they got the sentry out before you got up the ramp... now the sentry comes out faster. Warpgates come slower... maybe it balances out?
unless you are really far away I have found that they dont have sentries in time to stop this unless they made Zealot-stalker-sentry which even then, they wont have enough sentries to completely stop you trying to pressure and the stalkers can take pot shots from below on the sentries if a zealot gets up. Worst case, you set up a light contain and then proceed to either tech or add gateways and try to defend.
Adding gateways is in my opinion better than tech since you should be behind in tech so more units from the mineral advantage at the expansion (since they wont be leaving right away) can be the better option.
I'm finding this and variations of this build a LOT stronger after 1.3.3. If you attempt to sneak a gas steal in as well you can sometimes get pretty ahead in tech too since the build forces gas units to defend, and they won't often counter attack if you don't lose all your zealots when they eventually hold it off.
I find the best outcome is if they actually pump sentries to block their ramp, and you can then just tech freely since you're not spending the gas as fast.
They can't 4-gate as effectively after being hit by this, and if they try to rush your ramp, you'll have more zealots just sitting there which will blenderize whatever runs up your ramp, meanwhile you're teching.
I haven't had anyone go blink in response yet, for what its worth.
I thin the best response is to put own nexus without forge and cannons after defending the push and proceed with tech, someone familiar with this build can scout it easy and defend properly.
Recently i've been having less success with this build so I've been trying a cheesier variation where I move a scouting probe out at 7 and proxy the pylon at a midway location that his scouting probe won't see. I send a second probe out at 10 to build the gates at the same times.
This gives somewhat less economy but the 4 zealot timing isn't slowed down much, and you get a huge advantage from the time to walk to his base being that much shorter.
When his scouting probe sees nothing he may throw down a forge, at which point I know it is safe to expand to a base near my proxy (so on some maps where it is possible i proxy near a potential expo and just use that base as my main.
I'm only mid plat, so there's probably some holes in this strat. The times when I have died worst is when he goes for fast colossi and I go for a third. Wall-offs or ff maybe should be more successful against my strat but I haven't been playing really skilled toss at my level.
I almost never get a 'gg' from the opponent, probably due to the 'cheesy' nature of proxying, but this is quite different from a 10 gate proxy rush. Any thoughts on the cheesiness of the proxy hurting the strat?
I'm interested in making this strat better so any tips are welcome.
Uhh.. torichan.. he 2gates in response to your proxy and wipes out your proxy before you canget stalkers out, setting you back 400 minerals... this build is meant to get an expansion up... if you want to cheese then there are better proxy builds.
This build dies laughably convincingly to so many protoss openers, please don't keep trying to do it. Adelscott has stopped doing it for over 5 months now lol..
On June 30 2011 08:24 CCalms wrote: Uhh.. torichan.. he 2gates in response to your proxy and wipes out your proxy before you canget stalkers out, setting you back 400 minerals... this build is meant to get an expansion up... if you want to cheese then there are better proxy builds.
This build dies laughably convincingly to so many protoss openers, please don't keep trying to do it. Adelscott has stopped doing it for over 5 months now lol..
Would be lovely if people would actually provide evidence of this build dying to "so many protoss openers" instead of just saying that.
It feels like a lot of fast tech builds that could normally punish the expand might first struggle more than usual against the early zealot stalker pressure?
On June 30 2011 08:24 CCalms wrote: Uhh.. torichan.. he 2gates in response to your proxy and wipes out your proxy before you canget stalkers out, setting you back 400 minerals... this build is meant to get an expansion up... if you want to cheese then there are better proxy builds.
But I should have my two gates at least as fast as his plus my defenders advantage if he finds an attacks my proxy. Also if he does this I will scout it since I have such an early scout and can produce zealots just as fast as he can.
I had heard adelscott stopped using this build too and from the age of the thread I assumed it was over the 'fad' period, but I like it and want to make it work still.
On June 30 2011 09:50 CecilSunkure wrote: Well, this opening is really old and outdated, and just doesn't work at all anymore. After your first push there's a time when you only have 2 gates and no warpgate, so you can be out-produced in this time and take heavy punishment. Also, the other player can gain an easy army advantage by getting more stalkers than your initial push will have. This opening mostly worked when it was new and people did not know how to react.
If the guy who made the post on this build is saying that it's not viable anymore, then wouldn't it be a good time to close the thread?
I have actually had a fair amount of success with this build still once I noticed that if you see a scout probe right before you put your gateway down it means they 9 pylon scouted and are in close positions on metalopolis or shattered temple. I also gave up on the expansion and decided on a 4 gate follow up. When I've tried it the zealots always seem to keep them busy long enough to get your gateways up.
Thoughts on going for a 4 gate transition instead of an expo?
On June 30 2011 09:50 CecilSunkure wrote: Well, this opening is really old and outdated, and just doesn't work at all anymore. After your first push there's a time when you only have 2 gates and no warpgate, so you can be out-produced in this time and take heavy punishment. Also, the other player can gain an easy army advantage by getting more stalkers than your initial push will have. This opening mostly worked when it was new and people did not know how to react.
If the guy who made the post on this build is saying that it's not viable anymore, then wouldn't it be a good time to close the thread?
Someone might improve the build and post it here before making a new thread.
On June 30 2011 08:24 CCalms wrote: Uhh.. torichan.. he 2gates in response to your proxy and wipes out your proxy before you canget stalkers out, setting you back 400 minerals... this build is meant to get an expansion up... if you want to cheese then there are better proxy builds.
But I should have my two gates at least as fast as his plus my defenders advantage if he finds an attacks my proxy. Also if he does this I will scout it since I have such an early scout and can produce zealots just as fast as he can.
I had heard adelscott stopped using this build too and from the age of the thread I assumed it was over the 'fad' period, but I like it and want to make it work still.
The problem is that when you proxy gates, if you don't attack, he doesn't NEED to attack you at your gates. Eventually you are going to want to expand in this build, and the problem with a proxy is that if you EVER pull back, those gateways are dead and you lose the investment.
Still pretty good in very very close positions but other than that not a great build at all. It really relies on you doing damage with the first push which makes it quite risky. But like cecil linked, the maka gate is quite effective when you realise your opponents know what to do in response.
Ah, it looks like someone has already gone ahead and documented the proxy attempt path. Thanks a lot for this link!
Maka gate isn't proxied, its just hidden. "Proxy" comes from "proximity", what is a gate in your own natural in proximity to?
But anyway, the maka gate method actually can be very strong but it relies on the opponent overreacting or underreacting, both of which are a product of a lack of proper scouting or familiarity with protoss openings.
Any build that relies on your opponent to make a mistake is best saved for tournament settings, not ladder. Ladder you want to stick to the kind of build that works even if they know exactly what is coming.
Ah, it looks like someone has already gone ahead and documented the proxy attempt path. Thanks a lot for this link!
Maka gate isn't proxied, its just hidden. "Proxy" comes from "proximity", what is a gate in your own natural in proximity to?
But anyway, the maka gate method actually can be very strong but it relies on the opponent overreacting or underreacting, both of which are a product of a lack of proper scouting or familiarity with protoss openings.
I meant that when he talked about how the build came to be he explored proxying the second gate to avoid detection that gives away the build.
I play this BO for quite some time now and I think it is a good strat in lower leagues to counter a 4Gate. Reasons: - 4Gate: WarpGates open between 5:40 and 5:50 - 4Gate: If a ChronoBoost is missed, 6 minutes and later is possible, too. - Depending on the rush distance 4 Zealots attack between 5:20 and 5:40 (leaving at 4:35) - Defense: 1 Zealot & 1 Stalker (often first Zealot is skipped)
The image was taken at 5:20 (silver league) and red looses his Zealots and afterwards a couple of probes.
SearingCrater - PvP - Time 7:19: BO is executed quite well. Assimilator: 2:54, Core: 3:40, first Stalker: 4:42, WG-Tech: 4:46, but Nexus is late, because additional troops are made.
XNC - PvP - Time 6:29: A great example (gold league) of this strat with a long rush distance (Xel'Naga Caverns). The timings at the beginning are quite good. The core is build too late (25 seconds). The initial attack is very early. Blue leaves his base at 4:34. Blue does not loose a single unit.
I am no master and I do not know if this build is still viable in ML, but I think it's a good BO in lower leagues. I hope some people in Bronze or Silver are reading this. I am Gold and PvP is my best MatchUp because of AdelScott.
I play this BO for quite some time now and I think it is a good strat in lower leagues to counter a 4Gate. Reasons: - 4Gate: WarpGates open between 5:40 and 5:50 - 4Gate: If a ChronoBoost is missed, 6 minutes and later is possible, too. - Depending on the rush distance 4 Zealots attack between 5:20 and 5:40 (leaving at 4:35) - Defense: 1 Zealot & 1 Stalker (often first Zealot is skipped)
The image was taken at 5:20 (silver league) and red looses his Zealots and afterwards a couple of probes.
SearingCrater - PvP - Time 7:19: BO is executed quite well. Assimilator: 2:54, Core: 3:40, first Stalker: 4:42, WG-Tech: 4:46, but Nexus is late, because additional troops are made.
XNC - PvP - Time 6:29: A great example (gold league) of this strat with a long rush distance (Xel'Naga Caverns). The timings at the beginning are quite good. The core is build too late (25 seconds). The initial attack is very early. Blue leaves his base at 4:34. Blue does not loose a single unit.
I am no master and I do not know if this build is still viable in ML, but I think it's a good BO in lower leagues. I hope some people in Bronze or Silver are reading this. I am Gold and PvP is my best MatchUp because of AdelScott.
It's been figured out. That is, if you know how to play vs it, you will win almost every time.
I play this BO for quite some time now and I think it is a good strat in lower leagues to counter a 4Gate. Reasons: - 4Gate: WarpGates open between 5:40 and 5:50 - 4Gate: If a ChronoBoost is missed, 6 minutes and later is possible, too. - Depending on the rush distance 4 Zealots attack between 5:20 and 5:40 (leaving at 4:35) - Defense: 1 Zealot & 1 Stalker (often first Zealot is skipped)
The image was taken at 5:20 (silver league) and red looses his Zealots and afterwards a couple of probes.
SearingCrater - PvP - Time 7:19: BO is executed quite well. Assimilator: 2:54, Core: 3:40, first Stalker: 4:42, WG-Tech: 4:46, but Nexus is late, because additional troops are made.
XNC - PvP - Time 6:29: A great example (gold league) of this strat with a long rush distance (Xel'Naga Caverns). The timings at the beginning are quite good. The core is build too late (25 seconds). The initial attack is very early. Blue leaves his base at 4:34. Blue does not loose a single unit.
I am no master and I do not know if this build is still viable in ML, but I think it's a good BO in lower leagues. I hope some people in Bronze or Silver are reading this. I am Gold and PvP is my best MatchUp because of AdelScott.
Yeah I used to use this build a lot when I was moving from silver to diamond. The problem is that it is so easily scoutable and the response is just to chrono stalkers and kite the zealots. If they do that, you lose your initial push doing almost no damage and then would lose to a 4gate. Now that you can hold a 4gate with a single sentry this might be a little different, but your warpgate would still be extremely delayed so i don't think it would matter much (you would have to make too many sentry to stall for your unit production to catch up).
I (Gold) played this against a Master. He scouted it and boosted 3 Stalkers out.
His Micro was way better than mine. He caught my 4 Zealots in the middle of the map and kitet them. I lost one, but when my stalkers entered the fight, he retreated to his base.
I did not make any damage, but I got cannons and my Natural up. Since he is Master he easily defeated me in Mid-Game. Multiple attacks and drops, while having a better Macro than me.
If you do not make any damage and you loose all your troops, you have a disadvantage. But if your opponent has better Micro AND better Macro (Gold vs. Master) than I do not think there is a way to win, with a solid strat (no cheese).
Is AdelScott OP? No, certainly not. But it's a good strat in the lower leagues, if your multitasking is good enough.
I understand this is a good build for lower leagues but you've got to understand that as you improve this will not be a viable strat anymore. It's much better to improve off of a more viable strategy so that as you climb the ladder you won't hit a wall and start losing points as you try out another strategy.
One good reason other than the warpgate research time increase is that the new maps are all larger and thus it's much easier for chronoboosted stalkers to kite the zealots on the way to his base (or back to yours).
EPT![[image loading]](http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr11/Cecil_Sunkure/4.png)
![[image loading]](http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr11/Cecil_Sunkure/2.png?t=1292287052)
![[image loading]](http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr11/Cecil_Sunkure/1.png)
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![[image loading]](http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6628/adelnogaspvp.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/6/6e/AdelScott_Units_Spendings.jpg/300px-AdelScott_Units_Spendings.jpg)
