EPT[G] Adel's No Gas PvP - Page 5
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RageQuitter
United States84 Posts
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SaJa
France84 Posts
On January 01 2011 05:37 CecilSunkure wrote: He was 2850. Doesn't mean anything, prove : he was'nt pretty good. ELLO = ratio win/lose + number of games + points + ligue. If you just give me one of those factor, he doesn't mean that the guy will be good or not -.- Having 2900 points with 3k games and 50% ratio = noob Having 2900 points with 150 games and 70% win = gosu :\ As you said, in your replay, you didn't play well and yet you won pretty easily because this guy wasn't thinking well >.< | ||
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
On January 01 2011 06:37 burninglegionx wrote: How to win against Adel's build standard PvP start: send 9 pyl scout -> kinda necessary to spot cheese and to scout out opponent's base on 4p map 12 gate 14 gas 15 pyl (on 2 player map, if you want more econ, do a 12gate scout or 13gate scout. Late scout = riskier, but you end up with more minerals, so your choice) at this point, the probe scout should've spotted the opponent's build (even on 4p map, the probe will get to the last starting pos by 17 food at the latest). If you see no gas, lots of probes/chrono on nexus (meaning it wasn't a early double gate zealot push), and a 2 gateway, you know this is Adel's build. just drop a 2nd gate instead of core, then make zealots. Keep the probe scout circling in enemy base to see if he's changing build or not and to see when his zealots are moving out. build cyb core around the time he does and get the 2nd gas. Constantly make zealots and stalkers. Adel's build will attack by now. If he attacks, just defend from above your ramp (you have equal army size but you have the defender's advantage), and if he tries to pull back, just chase his army with yours and pick as many units off as possible. He can't fight you at this point because your stalkers took a few free shots when he tried to move up the ramp and the fight is taking place close to your base and you will win the battle with faster reinforcements. If he commits to the fight, you'll win the battle, and then you can just straight up push with a 4-gate follow up. If his army managed to retreat back onto his ramp without suffering a high casualty, just camp his nat and delay the expo from going up. Get robo up and fast colossi it. You have the gas advantage so you can spare the gas to warp in a few sentries if he went 4gates to push you back. Your colossi will come out much faster than his. If Adel's build got the nexus up and has cannons by the time you pushed his army back to the nat, you have the gas advantage with the 14 gas so just do a 3gate colossus push. Your colossus will be out before his 2-base econ can kick in and his colossus will be out much later than yours. you know if you play normally you will do just fine... you can 4wrpgate vs this build and still come out on top, you just have to spend your gas in a sentry over 2 stalkers, and use the ff to buy you enough time for the chrono boosted warpgate tech to come in. | ||
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burninglegionx
Canada22 Posts
I find this to be more reliable than giving the opponent the time to put up defenses at nat and then attacking the defense with 4gates. | ||
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On January 07 2011 15:14 KingofGods wrote: I'm confused how this is a no gas PvP or an econ build. The replay where you took that screenshot, (Adel vs. Huk on LT) Adel did the regular gate, assimilator, core. If I recall correctly, there were on cross positions on LT. Since they were on cross positions it must have been more beneficial to Adel to do a variant of his build order rather than the timing attack. I believe he went with some sort of 2 gate expand. It's the same principals however, just a variant. I really should just watch the replay again before posting, but I hate reloading to an earlier version  | ||
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OsoVega
926 Posts
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CCalms
United States341 Posts
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tarath
United States377 Posts
On January 23 2011 12:34 OsoVega wrote: I've tried this a couple times and it seems pretty good but one time I lost with it was to a forge, cannon defense. He scouted my second gate so he threw up a forge and got 2 cannons up by the time of my first push. Should I just back off and accept those two cannons and the forge as sufficient damage? Also, maybe I just played sloppily and I should have pushed earlier as this happened pretty fast. I'm curious because there must be a way to defend this and I wonder if a cannon defense would be good. Yes, you're only goal with the initial push is to slow down his 4-gate so you can expand. If he builds a forge and cannons he's not going to be able to 4-gate you until well after your nexus is up and you are defended. I wouldn't attack with the zealots nor would I even build the follow up stalkers if you see a forge. On January 23 2011 14:56 CCalms wrote: The only way I can see this build hurting me at all is if the initial zealots are able to take out my proxy pylon (as it's usually undefended for 10-15 sec as my stalker-stalker-zealot-zealot squad marches over). The zealots should be leaving his base at 4:30-4:45 so I don't think you will have even started your proxy pylon (unless you are not timing it to complete at the same time as your WG). Given that he is spending all of his chrono and money on units rather than on 2 extra gates and warpgate I don't think there is any way you will have a 2 stalkers and 2 zealots when he arrives at your base if you are aggressively 4-gating, unless you are on a huge map which this build is obviously not designed for. I think pretty much 100% of the time I force my opponent to warp in a round of units at home to defend his base if he is 4-gating. | ||
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dlax
United States37 Posts
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tarath
United States377 Posts
On January 23 2011 17:35 dlax wrote: My friend told me this is his new PvP standard and I was really skeptical. He is a Gold that could easily be Plat and probably diamond so I told him to use it against me. It really is fantastic and makes you feel aggressive not cheap. I massed zealots thinking he was 2 gating and then tried to break his front. The real grey area is the expansion but there is a lot of potential here. His only problem was macroing and I eventually won, but that first push is really a crazy looking thing when you barely have warp gates this is my standard on a lot of maps and i am 2750 diamond so it at least works at a mediocre level. | ||
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CodECleaR
United States395 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On January 23 2011 22:12 CodECleaR wrote: Wow, this strat. has literally given me an ~86% w/l ratio v p for the past two weeks. I just have one problem--I can't seem to get out my zeals before 4:56. I know it says in OP to attack with FOUR zealots at 4:45, but i just can't seem to do that. Also, I encounter a sentry at the top of the ramp when I poke-- How do they get one out so fast?! :O He went zealot --> sentry. I don't think this strategy works well in cross-positions or close-air, but it definitely takes over close-positions. I missed a timing attack and lost my army in SoW before, and despite losing my army I expanded. *facepalm* Found out that it's not good expanding even if you got map control if you lost your army because the opponent usually rushes double colossi and attacks. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The problem lies in the fundamental economic strength of protoss, warpgate and chronoboost. Because of chronoboost you reach saturation very quickly which makes it ineffecient to NOT mine gas and because of warpgate tech it is rarely useful to not get that cybercore. With a normal build this is really easy to hold. You simply scout and see a lack of gas but do see a inbase gateway. This always means zealot pressure, with either another gateway in base or at some proxy spot. To respond you can simply get 2 zealots from your gateway with chronoboost while your cybercore is making (cut probes very shortly to do so). Then keep defending with zealots and 1 stalker while adding a 2nd gate and get warpgate tech. It is easy to defend 2 gate zealot pressure with 1 gate if the guy is streaming zealots from his base, it simply takes too long for them too reach you. 1 stalker also gives you a huge micro advantage and by the time warpgate kicks in you'll be ahead in units and can simply crush him. Cannons are notoriously ineffective in PvP as 1 cannon effectively costs 300 and doesn't do enough while 2 cannons already costs 450 and leaves you way too much behind if the other guy also simply FE's. The only way this strat can somewhat work is when the walking distance for your zealots is really short, ie close position metalopolis. Steppes is already way too long (takes more then 30 secs for a zealot). Zealot pressure can work sometimes but it's better with 1 inbase gate and 2 delayed proxy gates then pumping from all 3. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On January 24 2011 00:41 Markwerf wrote: No gas builds suck for protoss imo. The problem lies in the fundamental economic strength of protoss, warpgate and chronoboost. Because of chronoboost you reach saturation very quickly which makes it ineffecient to NOT mine gas and because of warpgate tech it is rarely useful to not get that cybercore. With a normal build this is really easy to hold. You simply scout and see a lack of gas but do see a inbase gateway. This always means zealot pressure, with either another gateway in base or at some proxy spot. To respond you can simply get 2 zealots from your gateway with chronoboost while your cybercore is making (cut probes very shortly to do so). Then keep defending with zealots and 1 stalker while adding a 2nd gate and get warpgate tech. It is easy to defend 2 gate zealot pressure with 1 gate if the guy is streaming zealots from his base, it simply takes too long for them too reach you. 1 stalker also gives you a huge micro advantage and by the time warpgate kicks in you'll be ahead in units and can simply crush him. Cannons are notoriously ineffective in PvP as 1 cannon effectively costs 300 and doesn't do enough while 2 cannons already costs 450 and leaves you way too much behind if the other guy also simply FE's. The only way this strat can somewhat work is when the walking distance for your zealots is really short, ie close position metalopolis. Steppes is already way too long (takes more then 30 secs for a zealot). Zealot pressure can work sometimes but it's better with 1 inbase gate and 2 delayed proxy gates then pumping from all 3. Pylon + Cannon = 250*. Add the forge in and it's 400 minerals for 1 initial cannon. | ||
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gr8ape
Canada302 Posts
Strong math | ||
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Zestypasta
United States61 Posts
I hate 4warpgate (I dont use it at all) and i dont respect many of the people i ladder against who use it when I look at my match history losses, its all p all doing 4warpgate adelscott has brought pvp out of the dark ages for me. | ||
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tar
Germany991 Posts
On January 24 2011 00:41 Markwerf wrote: No gas builds suck for protoss imo. The problem lies in the fundamental economic strength of protoss, warpgate and chronoboost. Because of chronoboost you reach saturation very quickly which makes it ineffecient to NOT mine gas and because of warpgate tech it is rarely useful to not get that cybercore. With a normal build this is really easy to hold. You simply scout and see a lack of gas but do see a inbase gateway. This always means zealot pressure, with either another gateway in base or at some proxy spot. To respond you can simply get 2 zealots from your gateway with chronoboost while your cybercore is making (cut probes very shortly to do so). Then keep defending with zealots and 1 stalker while adding a 2nd gate and get warpgate tech. It is easy to defend 2 gate zealot pressure with 1 gate if the guy is streaming zealots from his base, it simply takes too long for them too reach you. 1 stalker also gives you a huge micro advantage and by the time warpgate kicks in you'll be ahead in units and can simply crush him. Cannons are notoriously ineffective in PvP as 1 cannon effectively costs 300 and doesn't do enough while 2 cannons already costs 450 and leaves you way too much behind if the other guy also simply FE's. The only way this strat can somewhat work is when the walking distance for your zealots is really short, ie close position metalopolis. Steppes is already way too long (takes more then 30 secs for a zealot). Zealot pressure can work sometimes but it's better with 1 inbase gate and 2 delayed proxy gates then pumping from all 3. First of all: Did u read the OP? The "no gas" build actually gets gas but only at 20/21 supply and a core at 24 supply. In case u did realise that plz proceed to the following: Every normal opener will put u in a position to defend against that push if u react immediately to what u scout. However, without adding a second gate asap and probably probe and gas cutting, u will suffer the damage ur opponent intended to inflict. What makes this build so effective is the perfect timing and use of ur resources resulting in 4fast zealots backed up by the 2nd wave of chrono boosted stalkers which arrives shortly after the zealots hit u. On Steps, I will be in ur base at least 40 secs before ur warpgate finishes probably some secs more if u use ur chronos on ur first gate. Since u cannot match the production of the no gas build, the following will happen: Let's say I don't want to hardcore micro, I just need to do the following: 2 zealots on ur zealots, one chasing ur stalker and one with shift+attack on ur probes. This will keep ur stalker busy, cost u probes or a lot of mining time and will have softenen up ur remaining units to be an easy target for my stalkers. Then I settle with the damage done and retreat with at least 2 stalkers sometimes even with a zealot before u can warp in enough units to kill me off. The damage has been done, I can now proceed and outmacro u. | ||
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