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On January 24 2011 00:41 Markwerf wrote:
No gas builds suck for protoss imo.
The problem lies in the fundamental economic strength of protoss, warpgate and chronoboost. Because of chronoboost you reach saturation very quickly which makes it ineffecient to NOT mine gas and because of warpgate tech it is rarely useful to not get that cybercore.
With a normal build this is really easy to hold. You simply scout and see a lack of gas but do see a inbase gateway. This always means zealot pressure, with either another gateway in base or at some proxy spot. To respond you can simply get 2 zealots from your gateway with chronoboost while your cybercore is making (cut probes very shortly to do so). Then keep defending with zealots and 1 stalker while adding a 2nd gate and get warpgate tech. It is easy to defend 2 gate zealot pressure with 1 gate if the guy is streaming zealots from his base, it simply takes too long for them too reach you. 1 stalker also gives you a huge micro advantage and by the time warpgate kicks in you'll be ahead in units and can simply crush him. Cannons are notoriously ineffective in PvP as 1 cannon effectively costs 300 and doesn't do enough while 2 cannons already costs 450 and leaves you way too much behind if the other guy also simply FE's.
The only way this strat can somewhat work is when the walking distance for your zealots is really short, ie close position metalopolis. Steppes is already way too long (takes more then 30 secs for a zealot). Zealot pressure can work sometimes but it's better with 1 inbase gate and 2 delayed proxy gates then pumping from all 3.
There is nothing wrong with this build. Adelscott, a professional player, along with a good amount of higher level ladder players have been using this with success. Even if you go along with the "standard response" of adding a second gateway after your core, you'll be behind because the delayed cybernetics core allows the Adel build to invest in their gateways before core thus allocating available resources at that moment to an optimal outlet; delaying the vespene in the Adel build makes for a significant vespene disparity that a standard opening cannot match. So, if you add on a second gateway you'll be behind in minerals and probes though you'll have a slight advantage in vespene, which doesn't even matter because the Adel build transitions nicely into a 5 warpgate structure, where you have 3-4 warpgates on constant production until your own warpgate is up. This means you can hit before the enemy has warpgate up, match their production while they have warpgates, then outproduce them with 5 warpgates. In the event that you deal significant damage with the initial push, you can even cut production of units while warpgate is being researched and expand.
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the only problem ive had with this build is that the opponent's scouting worker stays alive and sees EVERYTHING.
then this build just becomes laughable.
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On February 14 2011 08:58 lilky wrote:
the only problem ive had with this build is that the opponent's scouting worker stays alive and sees EVERYTHING.
then this build just becomes laughable.
There is nothing wrong with the Adel openning. It has it's weaknesses (long rush distances being the main one), but it is still very strong when done properly. I still win matches all the time using this opening.
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singlehandedly the easiest way to beat a korean 4gate... if you get scoued late and they go for the 1 pylon in base 18/18 you can put zealot pressure on... or even just chronoboost out those 3 zealot 2 stalker before they can begin their warpins... really really strong against the strategy deemed to be difficult by a majority of players
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This build blows when it gets scouted.
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This build is horrible why would you make a guide for it? This is not a viable PvP build at higher levels you're going to get owned by the standard 3gate PvP play into robo. No offense but it's true.
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blue001 is just saying afaik
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Yeah, build isn't great when it is scouted, all the other guy does is cut a few probes and drop his second gate, by the time you get there you can barely do any damage :/
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Getting scouted or not isn't a problem, since it's a build designed to get a good amount of economy while being able to beat any kind of cheese. It's one of the safest economic opening in PvP, but its main problem being the rush distance.
Safest doesn't mean it's the best ! It's just a good way to pressure your opponent, since you'll be on the offensive, but yeah... This build got troubles against 3 gates robo, or even one sentry FFing the choke, but you should be able to scout it, and you will be able to respond. Day9 daily #175 even featured it, and exposed its good and bad sides.
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The build isn't safe. If the rush distance is too big it will get completely demolished by a good a good 4 gate. The other guy only has to boost on his first gate 1 or 2 times to get an early stalker and will hose this completely.
Adel rarely does this build and when he does the build on bigger maps he is rarely succesfull with it. Typically a build that is only good on really close spawns, the rest of the time you'll automatically lose if you're opponent answers correctly imo (ie. gets enough units to defend but still gets up 3 or 4 warpgates quickly).
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The attack at 4ish mins with 4 zeals is kidna un-realistic. That is basically when you 'move out' with the zealots. By the time you get to your opponents base they will have 2 stalkers out able to kite, while their warpgate is researching.
What I dont like, is when my opponent goes 1z2sentry and full chrono on warp-gate tech, hides proxy pylon and FF's the ramp when the timing push comes. warpgate comes in and he warps 4 zeals and pushes in your base. using the FF to buy him time for a second warp-in to save his own base.
You delay your warpgate and are most vulnerable while you are attacking. If everything fails you have nothing to fall back on during the duration your warpgate / 2 additional gateways are completing.
My ideal counter to this weakness is to cut an additional chrono on your probes, to leave you at 75% when the cyber comes in. 2 Chronos on the stalkers will leave you with 25% giving you the ability to chrono your warpgate the second you reach 50 gas. Build 1 zealot out of your gateway, and then put down a forge, and second gas. When warpgate hits 50% ish, place 2 more gateways, and pump out a sentry.
If the damage dealt in the timing push is good, then I delay the 2 gateways and put down my Nexus, and place 2 cannons instead. (ramp, natural). On maps like Xel-naga, the rush distance is nasty, and the natural is very open, so i put down 1-2 cannons between the nexus and the ramp and put pylon wall behind the minerals. You expose your mineral line when you do this, but deny the enemy any chance to get up your ramp. If they circle around your nexus then you flank, and they get squished between your army and a pylon wall.
Key note for the 2g expand: When your nexus comes in, build 2 workers out of each building then cut probes to squeeze in a 5th gateway / constant warp-in. I like to build 1-2 sentries, but no more. The gas is needed for stalkers, and the sentries sole purpose is to FF their ramp or shield your army if they go stalker heavy.
I've had no problems with 3g robo, only 4 wrpgate with this build, When i see the robo, I put down the council and pump out more zealots incase of immortals. When blink comes in I switch back to stalkers and timing push when 1-2 colossus come out.
In a 4 wrpgate if your opponent comes out even or ahead on the first push, you are at a loss.
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Some really good stuff and thoughts is goin' on from Cecil
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idk what you guys are talking about. if this build gets scouted (they see 2 gates) almost everyone i play builds cannons, bunkers, or stays in their base because they think i have more units than them early on. if you do this type of opening and poke in just to show you have more units than them (assuming you keep up with macro) you can safely expand with just one or two cannons. once you get an expo up you can transition into whatever or macro off 5-7 gates with upgrades and overrun the opponent. this build is fun. (i'm diamond on both accounts i play on)
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On February 15 2011 22:48 Markwerf wrote:
The build isn't safe. If the rush distance is too big it will get completely demolished by a good a good 4 gate. The other guy only has to boost on his first gate 1 or 2 times to get an early stalker and will hose this completely.
You have no clue what you're talking about. SC2 is patching and I don't have time to go grab a replay, but what I wanted to say is that the last 6 or so people that said this opening sucks obviously suck themselves. How would you not be safe with 4 zealots and 2 stalkers to deny a proxy pylon?
If you expand and failed to do economic damage you deserve to lose the game. The wiki page pretty clearly states you can opt for a 5 Gate instead of an expand transition. I've done this multiple times (every time I can't deal economic damage) and I don't lose to a straight up Four Gate unless I executed the build improperly.
Edit: About scouting, it doesn't matter if you're scouted. By being aggressive you get to set the pace of the game. If the other guy had a pre-set build in mind he will have to deviate in order to match your production, and often times this will result in him cutting probes while you don't. So what if he matches your four zealots and 2 stalkers? You don't get to expand, but that doesn't mean the build sucks; you suck at using the build.
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On February 14 2011 12:57 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 08:58 lilky wrote:
the only problem ive had with this build is that the opponent's scouting worker stays alive and sees EVERYTHING.
then this build just becomes laughable. There is nothing wrong with the Adel openning. It has it's weaknesses (long rush distances being the main one), but it is still very strong when done properly. I still win matches all the time using this opening.
This is what happens when the build is correctly executed. My zeals arrived only moments before his sentry finished, which would have been the end of my pressure.
![[image loading]](http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6628/adelnogaspvp.jpg)
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this build has changed my PvP. i used to rip my hair out (until i shaved my head that is) over 4 gating. it felt so swingy and stupid. however the adel build is really solid. it times nicely against 4 gate or even a robo strat, and puts you at an advantage to win later on. i actually win against protoss opponents without going all-in which is a super nice feeling
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The Liquipedia page says to not scout after placing the 9 pylon. If this build is strong when your spawn positions are close and weak when they are far, what's wrong with scouting on 9 and only doing this build of they are in close positions?
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EPT
