EPTjust a question cause i can't try it atm:
does this still work if you spawn in cross positions and the opponent walls in?
really looking forward to trying this build, thanks a lot!
[G] Adel's No Gas PvP - Page 2
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currax
Germany7 Posts
just a question cause i can't try it atm: does this still work if you spawn in cross positions and the opponent walls in? really looking forward to trying this build, thanks a lot! | ||
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lavishh
United States3 Posts
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MegaPerle
France53 Posts
On December 14 2010 09:19 CecilSunkure wrote: Wonderful, thanks! Hope you don't mind me adding this into the OP I'm french, can't watch the replay right now, I'm at work. If you can't find an english comment of this one, I could translate. Interested? The strat seem pretty interesting, secure and original. | ||
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Crappy
France224 Posts
I was doing it every PvP ( high diamond range ) But ATM a adapted 4gate build order just rape it so hard. Even adelscott has stopped to do it. | ||
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Excel Excel
142 Posts
On December 14 2010 16:03 Craton wrote: This is a very misleading title. Delayed gas or late gas, sure, but it's the farthest thing from "no gas." Please try a "true" no gas mass zealots build and tell us how it works out then  .I tried this a little bit and it's actually quite easy to get used to, as it's flexible enough that even if they expect the 3 zealot + stalker push and respond with FF, you are still ahead. | ||
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MegaPerle
France53 Posts
On December 14 2010 20:54 Excel Excel wrote: Please try a "true" no gas mass zealots build and tell us how it works out then : Hum, korean 4gate? | ||
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TheGrimace
United States929 Posts
How are you getting warpgates without gas? @op Cool build. Definitely something to try. Thanks! | ||
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MegaPerle
France53 Posts
On December 14 2010 23:38 TheGrimace wrote: How are you getting warpgates without gas? @op Cool build. Definitely something to try. Thanks! Well, definitely not "no gas", but only 50 gas (52 to be exact) | ||
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
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Hane
France210 Posts
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painprophet
Romania33 Posts
I watched your delta quadrant replay (3rd in the list) and I can't help pointing out some mistakes you did, not to criticize you but to give you something in return: 1. killing that first pylon was the result of your opponent incompetence. he trapped your probe with his buildings and then he trapped his own zealot to kill the probe, pretty retarded imo. you should have first killed some probes before killing the pylon which made his zealot go free. he was pretty vulnerable 2. later you suicided 2 zealots in his base (with the proxy pylon) without even taking a second to look in his base and see what he's got 3. given the huge damage you did to his economy I don't think you needed to make so many cannons to defend an eventual push 4. you should have taken your third at gold | ||
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ShamTao
United States419 Posts
On December 14 2010 15:57 gr8ape wrote: youve been watching too much day9 Please address the topic for discussion, rather than throw out wasteful nonconstructive comments as you so desire. To address the topic: This is a great OP, I can't wait to look at the replays. I'll post any replays I can get while trying this out. Just wondering, what level do you play at? | ||
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Wayem
France455 Posts
On December 14 2010 20:50 Crappy wrote: This build order is pretty old now, I was doing it every PvP ( high diamond range ) But ATM a adapted 4gate build order just rape it so hard. Even adelscott has stopped to do it. This. This build made me trust in the future of PvP. I did it for a few weeks/months now. But in fact... this fails hard against a 4gate. I mean... really hard. Even blink stalkers can rape you. Sure, you kill some probes. But it's far from being enough. On December 15 2010 00:07 Hane wrote: this build seems to have big problems to deal with 4gates all in (1gaz), cf 3 last Adel's replays on sc2.rep And this is also true (btw I love u Hane). Except if you're really better than your opponent, you just die. Try to explain me with a straight face that you can counter a 4gate 1gaz with 2gate + gaz + late WG. | ||
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ilikeLIONZ
Germany427 Posts
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adius
United States249 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:52 ShamTao wrote: Please address the topic for discussion, rather than throw out wasteful nonconstructive comments as you so desire. To address the topic: This is a great OP, I can't wait to look at the replays. I'll post any replays I can get while trying this out. Just wondering, what level do you play at? I think he means that Day9 has unrealistic hopes about expanding in PvP, and does not have proper respect for the game ending power of the all-powerful colossus in all matchups. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
In fact Colossi only become really strong in PvP AFTER you expand, that's why I'm personally absolutely opposed to any type of builds that involve expanding (in pvp,) because macro play in PvP simply leads to mass colossus. What day9 really under-estimates is how strong warp gate are at eliminating the defender's advantage, and how far building a nexus really sets you back. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
That said the point about your sac'ing your initial zealot to kill a few probes is great. It is almost always worth doing if your opponent does not make an initial zealot of the own and can really mess with WG rushes since they cut probes so early. I've been doing this for a while now and I'm surprised why more protoss players do not do this. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The problem with using any build that includes a cannon for defense is that a cannon is actually NOT that cost effective in PvP. The first cannon costs 300 minerals as you need to otherwise useless forge for it (upgrades aren't that good in PvP) and cannons don't do that great against stalkers. 300 minerals invested in stalkers or zealots does way more then 1 cannon. As for this strat, it entirely depends on how close you are. In close position rallying units is alright (steppes or close pos meta/LT). In any other situation rallying units takes way too long though and a simple 4 gate will mutilate it. Noone 4 gates without units before warpgate anymore anyway (2 or 3 stalkers while you get WG is common now) and fast warpgate builds simply demolish this if the base distance is too long. For small maps this is a fine strat but a good protoss can simply adapt with a defensive 3 or 4 gate really. Simply chrono units from the first gateway, defend a bit and then hit back when warpgate finishes (which should be about 20 secs earlier). | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On December 14 2010 20:47 MegaPerle wrote: That would be so awesome! Please do it!I'm french, can't watch the replay right now, I'm at work. If you can't find an english comment of this one, I could translate. Interested? The strat seem pretty interesting, secure and original. On December 15 2010 00:05 MayorITC wrote: Well, if this is scouted then they're probably going to just add on another gateway and start chronoboosting troops from it so they survive aggression from you, since two gateways will from you will be a sign of early aggression. That just means their warpgate is being delayed, and if they went pylon gateway assimilator then they'll have quite a few less minerals because of their earlier vespene mining, and their earlier cybernetics core. Just try it out and take a look at all the sources I've cited.I don't really see this working. I mean it's a weaker economic build than the standard 1 gate cyber and relies on a lot of what-ifs to pull ahead. What-ifs that can be easily scouted since the scouting probe should be alive to see EVERYTHING. On December 15 2010 00:07 Hane wrote: I'm not sure which ones you're talking about. The last PvP I could find were from Gosu cup a long time ago, and I've already linked some of those multiple times in the OP.this build seems to have big problems to deal with 4gates all in (1gaz), cf 3 last Adel's replays on sc2.rep On December 14 2010 20:50 Crappy wrote: This build order is pretty old now, I was doing it every PvP ( high diamond range ) But ATM a adapted 4gate build order just rape it so hard. Even adelscott has stopped to do it. Can you explain why this fails so hard to a 4 gate? Can you explain why modifications can't be made in order to keep the build viable? On December 15 2010 02:49 Markwerf wrote: Expanding and cannoning is indeed very weak in PvP early on. The problem with using any build that includes a cannon for defense is that a cannon is actually NOT that cost effective in PvP. The first cannon costs 300 minerals as you need to otherwise useless forge for it (upgrades aren't that good in PvP) and cannons don't do that great against stalkers. 300 minerals invested in stalkers or zealots does way more then 1 cannon. As for this strat, it entirely depends on how close you are. In close position rallying units is alright (steppes or close pos meta/LT). In any other situation rallying units takes way too long though and a simple 4 gate will mutilate it. Noone 4 gates without units before warpgate anymore anyway (2 or 3 stalkers while you get WG is common now) and fast warpgate builds simply demolish this if the base distance is too long. For small maps this is a fine strat but a good protoss can simply adapt with a defensive 3 or 4 gate really. Simply chrono units from the first gateway, defend a bit and then hit back when warpgate finishes (which should be about 20 secs earlier). Upgrades are actually key in PvP. I've lost games just because of upgrades. You're able to afford the forge and cannon(s) because you have more minerals in general than the other player. Two cannons is much more effective than two stalkers or three zealots, when you are defending your natural. Plus, you need the cannons in case the other guy techs to dark templar. There is a VOD on youtube of Adel doing this against a 4 gate by MouzMana, and he almost holds it off. These are pros playing, and if Adel has been able to take both wins and losses, as well as close losses, the build should still be viable. Adel looked like he lost because he didn't seem to be cutting any probes and Mana was allin, Mana hit hardest before the cannon finished, and Adel had some major mis-micro at one point. If the rush distance is long, you can: force the other the other player to chronoboost units from gateways, thus delaying their wargpate; force the other player to invest large amounts of vespene early on on sentries; force the other player to spend a cycle or two from their warpgate production in their base instead of outside yours; you can also search for nearby pylons or on your way with your initial push or with troops following up your initial push. You are right in that a close distance will be helpful, but I wouldn't go and say this whole strategy should be dumped when the rush distance is really long. And to anyone who asked, I'm currently 2300+ diamond on the NA server. | ||
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Wayem
France455 Posts
Can you explain why this fails so hard to a 4 gate? Can you explain why modifications can't be made in order to keep the build viable? Hard to explain it with words but here we go. This build presents a very high production rate in the beginning, that why it looks so impressive. You look at the timing and think "omfg, this is huge". A "normal 4gate" is quite the opposite. It power up production facility and CB warp gate upgrade. The production rate at the beginning is very low (something like ... 2 units). But from the point warp gates kicked in, the production is off the chart. You reinforce 4 units, and each wave is faster than a regular gateway production cycle. So, you'll agree that if you don't intend to attack IMMEDIATELY at the timing, you are at a loss in a few secondes/minute. Hence, this relies on doing HUGE damages with the push. And I mean... HUGE damages. Killing 4/5 probes is sometimes far from being enough and you'll die to a counter attack once you'll be happy in your base, sitting on your expansion with a bunch of stalkers. The size of maps is also an issue, but I won't talk about it here. The "sentry issue" is also a problem, as if you encounter an "economic" 4gate with 2 gaz, you'll never be able to get up the ramp and from then on, you'll be behind economically. Oh, and by the way, you look like a fool (no, not with those buns) when you move out and face 3 stalkers. In open area, they can dance (3>2), kill yours and then focus down the zealots. Of course, you prevent that by retreating but loose maybe 1 zealot in the process. And it's basically gg. In conclusion... nothing saves this build. It was a great idea, it was smart, but... no. As said, even Adel seems to be backing off. Yes, he wins quite a lot it, but often, it is because he microes far much better than his opponent. The other ones are sometimes because of the rock/paper/cissors of PvP. In the whitera game, he was INCREDIBLY greedy. Really really greedy. So, Adel was able to make huge damage. | ||
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