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[D] I will trade my TvP brain for your TvZ brain

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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ShaneFeit
Profile Joined August 2011
92 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 17:14:48
February 16 2012 16:55 GMT
#1
I thought I would share some of my understanding on the TvP matchup which I feel very confident in up to mid GM level.

I hope this can be a fun way to share expertise in one area while at the same time improving on weaknesses in another.

Scouting
+ Show Spoiler +

There are many great guides on scouting in TvP but repetition never hurts so I will explain my thoughts on scouting a protoss.

I always scout with my barracks SCV which leaves plenty of time on most maps. On the very biggest maps such as Tal Darim and Antiga you may want to sent it out on 13 to ensure you can scout even if you get unlucky and find the enemy on the last possible location.

When entering the protoss base this is my 4-point checklist :

#1: Is the gateway building a zealot or not
#2: How much chronoboost does the nexus have
#3: 1 or 2 gas gysers
#4: Find all 3 pylons and note their positions.

(I try to find them in this order every game, helps you to engrain it in your brainhole as a habit)

#Extra good stuff:
Nexus block: Block the natural with an ebay if you scout 1 gas and chrono spent on probes AND you spot a probe leaving mineral line to build it. Build the ebay until 95% and then leave with your scv, try to delay canceling it as long as possible without letting it die.

The scouting probe: Try to keep an eye out if his scouting probe has returned to his base or not. Stop your scv by the watchtowers on your way back to base to try to find it. I always send my first marine out to hunt for this probe. If you run into a zealot just turn around and return to your base, the zealot cant catch the marine. Always return with the marine after checking 1 or 2 watchtowers so the stalker doesnt kill it.


Limiting P scouting:
+ Show Spoiler +
There is not much you can do to stop the probe scouting your base, however there are a few things that may make a difference.

- If you take a gas build it in the furthest away scout position from the ramp. If he scouts you last and the marine is out with good stutter step you can often kill it before it spots your gas.

- If he arrives early chase that probe with an SCV. It takes away attention from his base management and if he really wants to get great information he has to keep the probe alive for a bit after the first marine is out because that is when either a factory or second rax is planted, which means he has spent an aweful lot of attention microing that probe around while it takes very little attention to just a-chase it, exactly like zealots work . If you are doing a 1-rax FE there is no point in chasing the probe, because on no gas the protoss already knows exactly what you are doing.

- If you open with reactor or 2 rax, keep your marines at the natural or main ramp to prevent stalker, zealot, or a probe poke. You will have enough marines to hold it off. Stutter-step the marines down if its only 1 stalker poking and you can sometimes kill it.


What you will scout
+ Show Spoiler +

#1 - Scout - 1 gas, high nexus energy, all 3 pylons
Tell: The protoss is probably going either fast expand or a 4 gate. Keep your initial scout alive close to his base to scout the natrual for a nexus. If he kills that with a stalker immidiately send out a new one across the map, if you see a probe moving towards your base assume its a 4-gate and bunker up and win.

#2 - Scout - 2 gas - low chrono, 3 pylons.
Tell: When the protoss opens double gas, he could really be throwing anything in his early game arsenal your way and even mind game and FE a little bit slower. If you are far apart by air you can rule out any stargate play. That leaves the possible openings the protoss has to these: Immortal all-in, 3-gate blink stalker, 1 base collosus or Dark Templars.

#3 - Scout - 2 gas - low chrono - 2 pylons
Send your scv around the map, there WILL be a hidden pylon somewhere on the map, kill it and you are in great shape. Expect your opponent to accuse you of map hacking here. Respond with BM.


Resonses:
+ Show Spoiler +

In my opinion there are currently only 3 good builds that terrans open with versus protoss:

1/1/1: If you are opening with the 1/1/1 you really dont have to care what the hell the protoss is doing since you will have a bunker, a strong army and hit a timing attack which Protoss must react to.

Fast expand: Your only decision when FE is how many bunkers to build, to prepare reparing SCVs or not, saving oribtal energy and timing of your ebay. In scout case #2 you need to keep sending out scvs towards the protoss to get a tell of what he is doing.

If you spot 1 zealot and the rest all stalkers he wants to blink you. Build 2 bunkers at your front and 1 bunker in your main, keep some scvs by each bunker, try to scan and snipe the observer. Mass up on marauders and just try to take as few losses as possible. I push out when I have a decent number or marauders and my first 2 medivacs out. You will usually just win at this point.

If you spot an immortal: Bunker up hard with 4-5 bunkers and scvs on autorepair. You need to survive the first then second push and you will be in a huge lead. Dont salvage your bunkers unless you have map control and you are sure he isnt right outside your base. Protosses often push a second time if the first one fails, so dont be greedy, do rebuild bunkers that died in the first push. If you sense his push is too strong dont be afraid to pull all of your scvs to defend and tank damage.

If you dont see much at all its probably DTs. Get your ebay up right away and DO NOT drop any mules. Once ebay is done plant one turret at the front and one in your main. Try to bait the DTs into the turrets since good players will not keep sending DTs once the first is done and morph the rest into archons leaving him in a fine position. Basically dont let the protoss know you know he is going DT

I seldom see stargates anymore but I´ve also never had problem dealing with void rays. Just keep repairing the bunkers and get one on the high ground in case he tries to warp in units to your main under the cover of stalkers and void rays. Rebuild any depots that he manages to pick off and wait for him to commit or until you have enough of a force to just roll him, remember to pick off the void ray first with marines. Basically there is no rush for you to do anything other than defend.

If you scout early collosus. Most protoss will not push until their second collosus is done and the third one is on the way. Keep map control and 1 loaded medivac outside of range of his main. If his main army takes the watchtowers drop his main and force him to go back and defend or attack into your bunker line at your natural and die.

This is the standard response to collosus as a terran. You can not engage their army, but if you keep a few medivacs outside his main and push the natural with the rest of your army while constantly scanning you will find that you can drop the main and kill the natural or third when he goes to defend. Or kill a bunch of units in the main when he goes to save his natural or third. Never drop a protoss without threatening a second position, the drop will fail and you will be behind.

2- rax
The third opener that terrans use versus protoss 2-3 rax aggression. *added the Polt 2 rax build to the end of this guide, it is the best early agression build at the moment in my opinion.

This is my favorite opener versus protoss because it is safe versus everything and gives you the army to punish bad decision making by the P. However dont do it on maps with huge rush distances.

If you scout 4 gate, just keep building army in your base and wait for the protoss to attack into you, get an inbase expansion and throw down a single bunker if you feel your macro has been sloppy.

If you scout 1 gate FE or FE first. Attack once you get your second marauder, try to catch zealots and stalkers out on the map. Once you reach his main you want him to engage you as soon as possible, if he waits for the second round of warp gate production you will lose. So engage right away picking of stalkers and you can do a lot of damage, if he pulls probes keep your reinforcements coming and just lightly kite them for as long as they stay alive. I often bring 1-2 scvs with this first push to plant down a bunker, hoping that he makes the mistake of attacking before his second wave of units, or waits too long and lets the bunker complete. Having the second scv infront of your army to tank one or two zealot stabs can also make the difference between winning and losing the fight, since that will let each marauder shot 2 concussive shells at them and they will be half dead by the time they reach you and you just need to do 1 or 2 stutters back to wipe them out, then finish off the stalkers or probes. Expect to lose a lot of games by over-extending this push but once you get the feel for when you can keep pushing in for a win and when you need to back off you will be on the road to becoming a TvP monster

If you scout double gas you will still push with your first 2 marauders but this time let the scv poke up into the main and your main army stand just below it or to the side. This takes some practice to get the timing in right. The important part is not to let your army get forcefielded in half at the ramp. The defending army up the ramp will give you loads of information.

- If the protoss just has 2 sentries to forcefield the ramp and a small army expect DTs or a Stargate. Build an ebay at home, inbase expansion, raise your depots, rally your barracks to the ramp, and keep 5 scvs on autoreapair. Keep pushing the front with your main army and try to kill his defending army before going back home.

- If you spot an immortal just turn around, get an expansion at your natural and a bunker or two, or 5 so scout again every few minutes, and always keep an scv 7-8 range infront of your bunkers to give you time to react.

- If you spot a larger gateway army, build an ebay to block his natural then go back home.

- If the protoss has more than 3 forcefields keep rallying units forward and push up once he runs out, you will usually win at this point.


The late game
+ Show Spoiler +

I still find the mid-late and late game difficult versus Protoss since it is heavily centered around 1 or 2 big engagements.

There are 4 key points that will help you win these large engagments:

#1 Map control: Keep watch towers, patrolling scvs, scan and kill observers relentlessly.
- Getting attacked while you are building supply depots in your base is very bad, you need to be ready for the engagement.

#2 Scan his army to check composition and upgrades
- Respond with the standard good stuff. More vikings if he has a lot of collosus, more ghosts if archon, and more marines if zealot heavy.

#3 Be sneaky and take your time
- This is in my opinion the most important aspect of late game TvP. Don´t just close your eyes throw some EMPs and stim into his prepared and spread army. Even doing something like threatening a base before engaging just to get his army to clump up is well worth it, or moving in then retreating to get them clumped, or forcing the engagement at the other end of the map and leaving a marauder hit squad to flank the trailing High Templars. Do the same trickery with vikings and catch any collosus without heavy stalker or archon cover. Be surgical with your EMPs land them where you want them to land! Once you have done the micro and control dont get too mesmerized by the battle, tap your barracks key and get those marines, marauders, vikings, and medivacs building. There is no worse feeling than crushing a protoss army and then realizing you havent been macroing behind it and pushing into him will result in a loss, so you are forced to go back home rebuild and do another huge engagement that you must win.

#4 Attack to win!
- Yeah its an obvious point, but if you cant see yourself winning the battle, stall, delay move back until you know you can beat him.


Polt 2 rax
+ Show Spoiler +
- 12 rax - 1 marine then reactor right away (I like placing it at the ramp because it makes it look like a 1/1/1
- 13 gas
- 15 orbital
- 16/17 second barracks - try to hide it from the scouting probe, get tech lab once its done, start marauder and concussive right away, then get stim right after.
- 17 get second supply depot

- constant marine and marauder prodcution out of the raxes, DO NOT get supply blocked a single time it will make the entire push pointless. Supply goes up quickly so you can have an SCV constantly building depots around your base.

Place expo once you can afford it with constant unit production, follow that up with your second refinery, a factory, and then a third refinery at natural followed by an engineering bay. Get startport once factory is done, reactor on factory. (lift factory and send it to land at protoss third or scout main).

Push out again with your first 2 medivacs. If he has low sentry count try to kite the zealots for free kills. If he has a lot of sentrys be very careful and try to bait forcefields. This is quite tricky what you want to do is run close enough to forcefields then stim back and catch a bunch of zealots and waste sentry energy (use this same technique to bait and avoid storms late game). If you get trapped pick the trapped units with a medivac and drop them behind the forcefield.

If he has a collosus you know what to do, drop bait him.

**Extra good stuff**
After you start stim you can take 1-2 scvs off gas to get your expansion up faster.

**Mental notes**
Get the second supply depot after the reactor is placed.
Hide your first marauder from the ramp.
Concussive will be done around the time of the second marauder, dont forget STIM!
The 2 scvs joining the fight can be sent out a little bit after the main army pushes out.
Push with marines up front and marauders out of vision up to the watch tower. If the protoss sees the marauders he will know exactly whats coming and start chronoboosting his gateways. Try to get the stalker at the watch tower to chase your marines back towards your marauders, catch them with concussive!
DO NOT forget to start your expansion while you are pushing the protoss, even a short delay on this will put you far behind. Leave an idle scv at natural or in main to quickly build it during fighting.



Thanks for reading this guide, I know some of the explantions are way drawn out but the content should be good. Would love if some P´s could betray their own race and let us know exactly how many units and at what time they could have those when DT rushing.

My TvZ is aweful so you had problems with P but smash Zergs into the ground please share your insights with me
cydial
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States750 Posts
February 16 2012 17:22 GMT
#2
Good pointers, but it bothers me that you didn't actually add in any timings....

An SCV for example should leave the protoss base and hide before 4:00 because that's when a stalker will pop out unless he went nexus 15.

Vicarious_
Profile Joined December 2010
Brazil17 Posts
February 16 2012 17:24 GMT
#3
Haha TvZ used to be my best matchup, but my TvP was pretty mediocre and my TvT was awful and switched races ):
But seriously, mech is a nightmare to deal with in ZvT. In Tal Darim and maps where you feel you can abuse reapers, open 11 rax 12 gas into a reaper bunker rush, skipping all marines: if the bunker goes up, the hatch will go down. No need to proxy it; place it in the choke of the natural. Expand when you can, and place a factory next to the Tech Labed rax and prepare to go mech. Usually you'll go for 1 fac with reactor + 2 with tech labs, and then add 1~2 more when money allows. be active with the hellions, denying creep tumours and getting map control.

If you scout roaches, 2-port banshees will deal tons of damage; delay the extra factorys till you stop making banshees. Same goes for infestors. Now, if you expect muta ling, get blue flame and an armory ASAP and prepare for a 2-base thor hellion timing; that shit is strong. Get +1 attack (hellions will roast everything so quickly) or +1 armor, so thors are hard as fuck to kill. Push when you have like 4~6 thors and tons of hellions, and expand behind it.

Only get siege before blue flame if you expect a heavy roach all in; you have a rax from the opening, you can use it to produce marines for defense or scout with it. Be careful with roach drops, those can do a lot of damage. If he's going roach heavy make more tanks, if he's going muta heavy more thors etc. Don't be afraid to pull a ton of scvs for repair, they're so worth it.

As you approach the end of mid game, start getting ghosts. Maybe post-nerf they won't be as good, but right now they absolutely wreck ultras and broods, so mech + ghosts late game is pretty awesome.

If you are going for 2-port banshees as in response to roaches and/or infestors, 1~3 factorys is ok before you get your third. If you are going full mech, 3~4 factorys is mandatory. Get a starport for blue flame drops if your timing doesn't outright kill him, and get turrets and tanks to secure your third. You can actually turtle in 3 bases till you reach a mass of thors, hellions and tanks around 160 pop with good upgrading and just go kill him.

In bigger maps you can also go reactored hellions into a third macro CC very quickly (Thorzain style) and rush upgrades while securing that fast third, just watch out for roach drops, that thing is nasty against this style. Btw, you must always scout the spire, if he's rushing for broods you'll need lots of vikings, and that is one of the main responses to mech nowadays. Just get a lot of vikings and push him, you'll probably be able to do a lot of damage.
Severus_
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
759 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 17:38:22
February 16 2012 17:35 GMT
#4
What i try to do in TvZ is do timings based on my upgrades and zerg expands. I like more frontal attacks style and big battles so i don't harass much only if we trade armies and i have some leftovers. For openings there are alot :
I use CC first sometimes,1rax reactor expand then hellions or normal reactor expand. For scouting i think there are 2~3 styles you should look for which require diffrent setup ups :

1 - The normal muta/ling/bane. It seems alot of zergs nowdays drift away from it ( or atleast EU). When i see this style I plan a 2 base timing attack to brake his 3rd or atleast deal some dmg and expand myself. Also with this style try to be active with your army scan, keep him busy and push on his main don't try to get other bases because you might get flank because of his mobile army. This way you will also keep his mutas with his army insted of harassing your bases.
2 - the mass ling 2 evo's/infestor build. I h8 this build the most because sometimes i play too greedy and zerg rolls me with 120lings from 3bases 2-1 upgrades. With this style try to play defensive i usually drop 2 factories and focus on upgrades for my marines and tanks. I kinda skip the ghosts for the infestors because i think with the right sieges you can beat his comp ( but thats only my opinion) Also you can be rly harass heavy vs this style because infestors are slow and he has only lings if you did some 2engi build you are in awesome shape to drop and fight 1 on 1 with lings. GET A VIKING its amazing how it works with no mutas it opens paths for drops and he has no vision of the map.
3 - Any other comps like roaches/banes just mech on them and turtule like Flash and you will be fine.

Basicly in TvZ is who can trade his army more efficient so think in that way :
How I'm suppose to trade efficient in this situation ? Are you gonna do drops and harass or do frontal attacks with big timings ? It's all up to you. Also you need to know when the Zerg expands keep some marines scvs on possible 3rd bases. Always scan after 3rd base for Hive and drop a 2nd starport so you don't die to silly BL switches.
InfO
Profile Joined August 2010
United States58 Posts
February 16 2012 17:37 GMT
#5
Hey man,

Great guide. I like the set up, and there's no such thing as too much information about scouting, BO, etc, as long as the information is useful. Under the scouting section, what about the number of gates? I feel like that is also a tell, because 2 gates usually means some sort of pressure coming, instead of an FE. Thanks!
ShaneFeit
Profile Joined August 2011
92 Posts
February 16 2012 17:40 GMT
#6
On February 17 2012 02:22 cydial wrote:
Good pointers, but it bothers me that you didn't actually add in any timings....

An SCV for example should leave the protoss base and hide before 4:00 because that's when a stalker will pop out unless he went nexus 15.



Knowing the stalker timing at around 4 minutes is good.

Besides that there are no timings that are worth noting in my opinion. Even knowing when DTs could come doesnt aid your decision making, since getting an early ebay is decided on the information gathered from the P, not the timing of when it could come.

I dont like associating the game to the timer, because knowing the fastest possible collosus, dt, void ray, high templar with storm is really useless. Basically you should be reading your opponent not the in-game timer.
ShaneFeit
Profile Joined August 2011
92 Posts
February 16 2012 17:57 GMT
#7
On February 17 2012 02:37 InfO wrote:
Hey man,

Great guide. I like the set up, and there's no such thing as too much information about scouting, BO, etc, as long as the information is useful. Under the scouting section, what about the number of gates? I feel like that is also a tell, because 2 gates usually means some sort of pressure coming, instead of an FE. Thanks!


Thanks.

You usually dont get to scout more than the pylons, nexus energy and gases until you are forced out of the base.

However a trick I forgot to mention is leaving an scv out on the map and running it into the protoss base when/if they do the zealot/stalker poke can sometimes let you get a free scout of the entire P main. Most Protoss are getting good at finding hidden scvs in and around there natural these days so keep it a bit futher out of range.

As far as responding to 2 or 3 gate pressure expand.
FE: you already have a bunker up and will rarely die, worst case you build a few too many bunkers because it can be hard to tell if its an all in or pressure. However you still have your expansion up before his so its better to stay safe than to dismiss it as pressure and then die to the all-in.

2-rax: If he comes to you he will get crushed. If you push his base you need to retreat if you see that large gateway army. Put down your expansion and the game is still even and moves into mid game.
Psychobabas
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
2531 Posts
February 16 2012 18:16 GMT
#8
Hi,

Could you please a couple of replays of you going a 1 rax FE vs a 1 gate FE protoss, preferably going over the 20 minute mark? Many thanks
ShaneFeit
Profile Joined August 2011
92 Posts
February 16 2012 18:18 GMT
#9
On February 17 2012 02:35 Severus_ wrote:
What i try to do in TvZ is do timings based on my upgrades and zerg expands. I like more frontal attacks style and big battles so i don't harass much only if we trade armies and i have some leftovers. For openings there are alot :
I use CC first sometimes,1rax reactor expand then hellions or normal reactor expand. For scouting i think there are 2~3 styles you should look for which require diffrent setup ups :

1 - The normal muta/ling/bane. It seems alot of zergs nowdays drift away from it ( or atleast EU). When i see this style I plan a 2 base timing attack to brake his 3rd or atleast deal some dmg and expand myself. Also with this style try to be active with your army scan, keep him busy and push on his main don't try to get other bases because you might get flank because of his mobile army. This way you will also keep his mutas with his army insted of harassing your bases.
2 - the mass ling 2 evo's/infestor build. I h8 this build the most because sometimes i play too greedy and zerg rolls me with 120lings from 3bases 2-1 upgrades. With this style try to play defensive i usually drop 2 factories and focus on upgrades for my marines and tanks. I kinda skip the ghosts for the infestors because i think with the right sieges you can beat his comp ( but thats only my opinion) Also you can be rly harass heavy vs this style because infestors are slow and he has only lings if you did some 2engi build you are in awesome shape to drop and fight 1 on 1 with lings. GET A VIKING its amazing how it works with no mutas it opens paths for drops and he has no vision of the map.
3 - Any other comps like roaches/banes just mech on them and turtule like Flash and you will be fine.

Basicly in TvZ is who can trade his army more efficient so think in that way :
How I'm suppose to trade efficient in this situation ? Are you gonna do drops and harass or do frontal attacks with big timings ? It's all up to you. Also you need to know when the Zerg expands keep some marines scvs on possible 3rd bases. Always scan after 3rd base for Hive and drop a 2nd starport so you don't die to silly BL switches.


Thanks. Solid pointers. Reading your post and Vicarous before it makes me feel my TvZ style is probably dated, going marine tank every game regardless of Zerg composition. Looking back its probabaly started going downhill for me once the stephano mass upgraded ling style started getting popular and zergs got super efficient at defending marine drops. Going to work on my mech in TvZ. Also like that you mention how many buildings to get on each base, which is essential for solid macro. Whats the standard amount of factories per base?


So I might as well add that to the TvP pointers. The standard rule of 4 production buildings per base is spot on in my opinion.

With the 2 rax:
After getting your starport up, add 3 more barracks as you can afford them. Get another reactor if he is zealot heavy otherwise give them techlabs. You can afford constant production out of these on 2 base while getting upgrades and then a third. So in total you will have 1 reactor barracks, 4 tech lab barracks, and 1 reactor starport. ( I count each reactor building as 2 since it has double production, so on 2 base you have 8 in total). Once your third has started to build, add another 4 barracks.

FE: You usually get 3 barracks, followed by startport and then 2 more baracks. But if you were to open with say 4 rax the rule is still the same and you only add 1 more barracks after the reactor starport. Once your third has started to build, add another 4 barracks.

Following this makes macro decision making very simple.




Severus_
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
759 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 19:35:05
February 16 2012 19:13 GMT
#10
You aim for 3bases :
5 raxes ( 1 tech lab 4reactors)
2ebays 1 armory
2 factories
1 reactor starport ( 2 ports if you didn't kill 3rd and saw Hive + BL's)
When you get your 4th get 3 more raxes and get tech labs + 2 ghost academy for nukes,upgrades
Here are also some reps:
Bomber vs Idra

Also check this guy rep pack he is a polish terran :
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310810
His game vs Revival ( and some of the other TvZ's) are exactly what i'm talking about you might find 1 or 2 things that are useful.
QuickFast
Profile Joined November 2006
Canada46 Posts
February 16 2012 19:47 GMT
#11
This has helped. Thanks.
RedThor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
116 Posts
February 17 2012 01:42 GMT
#12

#3 - Scout - 2 gas - low chrono - 2 pylons
Send your scv around the map, there WILL be a hidden pylon somewhere on the map, kill it and you are in great shape. Expect your opponent to accuse you of map hacking here. Respond with BM.


Would you do this even when doing a 1 rax FE ? I'm afraid to lose my few marines to their stalker and zealot if I go chasing after the inevitable close by warp-in pylon right away.
Favorite map: Scrap station !
skatbone
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1005 Posts
February 17 2012 02:59 GMT
#13
"#3 Be sneaky and take your time
- This is in my opinion the most important aspect of late game TvP. Don´t just close your eyes throw some EMPs and stim into his prepared and spread army. Even doing something like threatening a base before engaging just to get his army to clump up is well worth it, or moving in then retreating to get them clumped, or forcing the engagement at the other end of the map and leaving a marauder hit squad to flank the trailing High Templars. Do the same trickery with vikings and catch any collosus without heavy stalker or archon cover. Be surgical with your EMPs land them where you want them to land! Once you have done the micro and control dont get too mesmerized by the battle, tap your barracks key and get those marines, marauders, vikings, and medivacs building. There is no worse feeling than crushing a protoss army and then realizing you havent been macroing behind it and pushing into him will result in a loss, so you are forced to go back home rebuild and do another huge engagement that you must win."

As a toss player, I think this is the best advice I've read on TvP in awhile. I find that the winner of the big engagements in TvP is usually the one who has initiative in the fight. Faking an attack to cause us to clump up to make you EMPs more effective or move us out of position often works against me...if nothing else, it forces me to make a decision about army movement that I wasn't planning on making.
Mercurial#1193
Murlox
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France1699 Posts
February 17 2012 08:25 GMT
#14
These are precious advice to me as TvP is by far my worst matchup (must have like 85% loss ratio). I wish I could repay you with some equally good stuff about TvZ, as I am a Zerg demolisher. In my league. Which is gold, so I doubt it would matter.

In any cases, thanks for the good stuff.

One thing though : I found this thread while looking for a PvT help thread, in order to possibly find what does bother the Protoss in that matchup. I haven't find one yet. I can't help but notice there are actually very few "help" thread concerning protoss. Anyway, maybe you should look for a ZvT help thread and just read what bother the GM level zergs in that matchup.

Resistance ain't futile
Leargle
Profile Joined October 2010
United States173 Posts
February 17 2012 09:50 GMT
#15
Hey,

High masters Terran player here, TvZ is my best matchup by far.

I don't think I saw what specifically you have problems with TvZ, but in my opinion, the safest way to play is always get at least one banshee. You won't lose to all ins. Banshees 2 shot banelings, and can just follow roaches from zergs base all the way back to yours, picking off a few on the way.

I don't know if you've played much mech, but here's a build fOrGG used a bunch a couple weeks back on his stream:

Basic Build
+ Show Spoiler +
10 - depot (wall)
12 - rax (no wall)
13 - gas
15 - orbital
16 - depot (wall)
factory @ 100 gas (use scv that build depot
reactor @ rax
gas
depot (wall)
starport @ fac complete
switch fac and rax
tech lab @ rax
2 hellions
cloak @ starport
banshee
36 - CC @ 6:20
tech lab @ rax
lift starport after 2 banshees
lift rax @ tech lab complete
2 factories on 2 empty tech labs
armory
@facs complete, 2 thors, follow with 2 more asap
continue making hellions, but prioritize thors
@ 4 thors, push towards zerg base, pull 10 scvs to autorepair, bring hellions and banshees with


Transition into mech.
Get bf, +1 attack, go for 3rd base. You always want to have a couple thors, but most zergs will do a mass roach counter, so you 100% need tanks.


It's really hard to outline the whole game for you here... Shoot me a PM if you're interested in any replays
Maphack supply depot overlord
Bwall
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden145 Posts
February 17 2012 10:11 GMT
#16
On February 17 2012 18:50 Leargle wrote:
I don't think I saw what specifically you have problems with TvZ, but in my opinion, the safest way to play is always get at least one banshee.


I don't agree 100% with that. While this is great when going for mech, it's detrimental when you're playing marine-tank, as it slows your other tech down by quite a lot.
genius_man16
Profile Joined February 2011
United States749 Posts
February 17 2012 10:13 GMT
#17
Try doing the Bomber style of TvZ. Day9 has a daily on it and it's pretty sick actually. A very simple way to play, and it helps learn a lot about the matchup since you don't care what type of strategy he goes for.
Dyrus | Vooby | Balls | Meteos | WildTurtle | Bjergsen | Cop | sexPeke | Xpecial | Aphromoo | Scarra |
Leargle
Profile Joined October 2010
United States173 Posts
February 17 2012 10:19 GMT
#18
On February 17 2012 19:11 Bwall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2012 18:50 Leargle wrote:
I don't think I saw what specifically you have problems with TvZ, but in my opinion, the safest way to play is always get at least one banshee.


I don't agree 100% with that. While this is great when going for mech, it's detrimental when you're playing marine-tank, as it slows your other tech down by quite a lot.


Don't underestimate the power of banshees ^^

A pretty good example game is jjakji vs Sen from this season of Code S on Dual Sight. He opens banshee and hits a very nice 2 base marine tank timing. There was more at work here than just the banshee, but Sen did go for a roach pressure and it got completely wrecked.
Maphack supply depot overlord
Joedaddy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1948 Posts
February 17 2012 10:50 GMT
#19
On February 17 2012 02:22 cydial wrote:
Good pointers, but it bothers me that you didn't actually add in any timings....

An SCV for example should leave the protoss base and hide before 4:00 because that's when a stalker will pop out unless he went nexus 15.



I thought the stalker timing was 4:15. Is that if they go zealot first and 4:00 is stalker first?
I might be the minority on TL, but TL is the minority everywhere else.
Leargle
Profile Joined October 2010
United States173 Posts
February 17 2012 10:56 GMT
#20
On February 17 2012 19:50 Joedaddy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2012 02:22 cydial wrote:
Good pointers, but it bothers me that you didn't actually add in any timings....

An SCV for example should leave the protoss base and hide before 4:00 because that's when a stalker will pop out unless he went nexus 15.



I thought the stalker timing was 4:15. Is that if they go zealot first and 4:00 is stalker first?


I'm almost positive the stalker timing is 4:11 without a zealot first.
Maphack supply depot overlord
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