On February 17 2012 18:50 Leargle wrote: I don't think I saw what specifically you have problems with TvZ, but in my opinion, the safest way to play is always get at least one banshee.
I don't agree 100% with that. While this is great when going for mech, it's detrimental when you're playing marine-tank, as it slows your other tech down by quite a lot.
Don't underestimate the power of banshees ^^
A pretty good example game is jjakji vs Sen from this season of Code S on Dual Sight. He opens banshee and hits a very nice 2 base marine tank timing. There was more at work here than just the banshee, but Sen did go for a roach pressure and it got completely wrecked.
Well, the problem is when they don't try to apply pressure. It's like bunkers, they're great when they attack you, but if they don't attack you've only lost money. Do you have an example of this?
If they don't attack you get to harass them with said banshees :D
Sometimes you get the free win if they don't have detection, but that's a bit of a coin flip scenario. Often times you'll get a queen and a few drones while they make the spores.
On February 17 2012 20:12 Leargle wrote: If they don't attack you get to harass them with said banshees :D
Sometimes you get the free win if they don't have detection, but that's a bit of a coin flip scenario. Often times you'll get a queen and a few drones while they make the spores.
Yeah, but it's far from always that pays of more than investing in your bio-upgrades. As I said, it's great for mech, but when going for a marine-tank composition it's not that great.
I'm not nearly at your level but the way I have success with Zerg is just always be in their face and never let them get comfortable. Once you have proper upgrades, you can trade so effectively with micro. I personally like to do a really fast 3rd orbital from a hellion opening, with 1-2 marauders in a bunker in case of roaches.
I like to corner the zerg with 3 bases, then take a slower 4th, but a faster 5th if that makes sense. Everytime I see a Zerg take a base, I like to take one too. Also I like to drop in 2-3 places at once and move out with my main army for map position. Once I get the middle, all I really need to do is check every so often for Hive tech and adjust accordingly. Always drop to keep the zerg from being too comfortable. At the later game stages, I always snipe expos too.
edit: also I'm not a big fan of mech. I think there are really strong timings, but I always find really fast (15-16 minute BL's) are hard to deal with, and if you don't do good enough of a job denying a 3rd expo, zerg can easily roll you.
Dealing with Zerg as Terran is interesting, because there's generally 1 of 2 ways the game will play out in standard scenarios:
1. Both sides get 2-3 bases and Zerg goes for early ling/bling/Muta OR Infestor/Ling, and then Infestor/Broodlord.
- deal with this by not letting him get Hive. Properly executed Tank/Marine/Medivac pushes should come just before the Mutas hit if he's going Muta or soft contain the edge of creep when he's going Infestor/Ling. Keeping ahead on upgrades will be a big help here. Zerg is curious in this style because there is almost no way they can attack a properly defended Terran ball with enough siege tanks in the right position, but you must keep yourself aware of positioning so that you don't get caught with your pants down. Add Thors for Muta zone control if desired.
2. Zerg goes 1-2 base baneling bust/roach-hydra.
- easy to deal with in general. Getting your siege tanks up in time completely negates baneling bust, and roaches should be responded to with as many tanks/thors as possible. Simply push, don't get caught unsieged, and watch the roaches melt.
If the Zerg does get hive in either of these scenarios, you need to be prepared. Preparations must include at least 1 or 2 additional Starports, 1 with a Tech Lab, and a whole bunch of Tech Lab barracks (if you've been going marine/tank this is nice because you already have Infantry ups going). Aggressively scan and scout him to see what's coming. If there are 0 Corruptors on the field, assume Ultras. You will need lots of Marauders and Tanks, aggressively sieged to prevent the Ling/Ultra ball from rolling you. Nukes would not be a bad idea either. If you see a blob of Corruptors, assume Broodlords. Keep building Marine/Ghost, but make sure to slam out 3-4 Vikings at once, and get at least 1 or 2 Ravens. The Ravens will drop PDD to keep your Vikings from getting mauled by 20 Corruptors while they obliterate the Broodlords. Use Ghost EMPs to get rid of Infestors, and try to spread preemptively so that Fungals don't kill you instantly.
This one isn't the same build order, but it's another viable mech opener. Got gas capped so I went for double reactor hellion into thor/hellion timing attack http://drop.sc/113663
Annnnnd then 14cc into double armory mech because I fucking can. http://drop.sc/113665
Surprisingly , the build/style that actually works best for me at the moment , is the bomber style of play which was also covered by day9 (Daily#395). If yo don't know it , short summary:
You get a fast third, +2/+1 upgrades, and the first time you push out is when the upgrades finish, which is at the time youre nearly maxed out. When you move out you also take your 4th. Allthough it sounds really passive , its actually pretty great. The push will hit really hard and eventually kill the zerg all right if he went expansion crazy, because your army will just be too big. If he is able to defend, you can start to drop , and go into usual late game.
I wonder, what do you think of 1 rax marauder opener?. I do it all the time and it's hilarious when Protoss just sends their first stalker in to scout and loses it so quickly. It allows for a pretty quick CC, safely on the low ground, start stim (or combat shield) early and I've found it's virtually a build order win against blink builds.
On February 18 2012 01:14 Huggerz wrote: Love the thread, thanks for posting.
I wonder, what do you think of 1 rax marauder opener?. I do it all the time and it's hilarious when Protoss just sends their first stalker in to scout and loses it so quickly. It allows for a pretty quick CC, safely on the low ground, start stim (or combat shield) early and I've found it's virtually a build order win against blink builds.
It's pretty easy to scout, and any stargate/immortal based all in will completely wreck it.
I did this build for quite a long time. Around mid diamond players figure out how to beat it completely. Better off doing the reactor first 2 rax or the rainbow rush (conc marauder + hellions).
Nice guide. Playing random means that I know what protoss buildings =, but ur ways of dealing with certain more unique protoss all in builds are very useful . I especially like the way you counter collussus (drop baiting or whatever you called it). I would offer some advice in tvz but seeing as your a full league higher than me; I'm assuming that you know everything I could possibly tell you ^_^;: Thanks anyways though.
What do you think of the proxy center of the map marauder rush? I saw it a couple of times (gsl/ksl etc) and this build looks stellar; I mean you're almost guaranteed to force him to pull probes, and as soon as that happens he will be automatically taking economical damage- where as you are left completely untouched which gives you the choice of continuing to pressure him or simply grabbing an expansion and waiting for your 2 base timing (with proper scouting I don't see how the protoss can grab the advantage back short of some kind of unscouted 1 base all in, defending (but with less production...) your 2 base timing) - and that's only if you chose to play it that way;
I don't think that we really need 0:00 timers since most of these builds have been allocated whole threads where the timings are gone into in length and detail...
On February 18 2012 01:46 MyTHicaL wrote: Nice guide. Playing random means that I know what protoss buildings =, but ur ways of dealing with certain more unique protoss all in builds are very useful . I especially like the way you counter collussus (drop baiting or whatever you called it). I would offer some advice in tvz but seeing as your a full league higher than me; I'm assuming that you know everything I could possibly tell you ^_^;: Thanks anyways though.
What do you think of the proxy center of the map marauder rush? I saw it a couple of times (gsl/ksl etc) and this build looks stellar; I mean you're almost guaranteed to force him to pull probes, and as soon as that happens he will be automatically taking economical damage- where as you are left completely untouched which gives you the choice of continuing to pressure him or simply grabbing an expansion and waiting for your 2 base timing (with proper scouting I don't see how the protoss can grab the advantage back short of some kind of unscouted 1 base all in, defending (but with less production...) your 2 base timing) - and that's only if you chose to play it that way;
I don't think that we really need 0:00 timers since most of these builds have been allocated whole threads where the timings are gone into in length and detail...
Thanks.
The proxy marauder rush is not something I have ever tried. Off the top of my head the advantage is that it hits sooner and will do a lot of damage to stalker first builds.
The disadvantages are that you have an exposed tech lab (getting your stim or combat shields cancelled sucks!, leaves your base undefended so a protoss can hold your pressure then warp in units and walk into your main.
On February 18 2012 01:50 Laurens wrote: question about the polt 2 rax:
When do you add more raxes, when the starport is building or after you put down a 3rd in your base?
You add 3 barracks as you can afford them after you started building the 2 medivacs out of the reactored starport.
If your first push did a lot of damage you COULD get the 3rd command center before the 3 barracks. Personally I never do it because it leaves you unnecessarily vulnerable to counter attacks.
Masters Terran Here First, consider the metagame - what have you been seeing?
I think watching recently TLO @ MLG, Stephano, and fairly recently Nestea and many more opting for zergling focused strategies involving double evo and early macro hatches. I see very few zergs opting for a quick roach warren evem when zerg gets a good scout off on the reactor factory.
I think this is a good enough reason to use a hellion build and work on your hellion control. Hellion control, is about 100x easier than marine control and hellions are far stronger vs lings, so there's 2 more reasons to make some hellions. I think the best build going at the moment is reactor hellion expand into double reactor factory hellions, hitting initially with 4 or 2/4 and kill any lings and poke at his drones. If he is super greedy feel free to go for a runby and fry a bunch of drones.
If you kept the hellions alive, use a watchtower scv to repair them, and return with 10-12 hellions and fry him up, kill the lings first.
Just do everything you can to hide what you're doing, which should be easy because you have hellions which = map control.
P.S. I think rallying your first marine to his base and building a bunker is pretty awesome, you can usually get at least one drone kill and I often get the bunker up. You even get an occasional over-reaction from about a quarter of masters zergs. Especially if he hasn't scouted you, he may not be super sharp on his timings and not know that a proxy 2 rax would have hit earlier (but it's really close even on a map like antigua).
I also think proxy 2 rax on antigua is sick with a far back bunker to protect a closer bunker. Proxy 2 rax never disappears completely in the gsl, sometimes it is just awesome and is an okay alternative to going hellions every game, but you can't really go too wrong going hellions.
On February 18 2012 01:14 Huggerz wrote: Love the thread, thanks for posting.
I wonder, what do you think of 1 rax marauder opener?. I do it all the time and it's hilarious when Protoss just sends their first stalker in to scout and loses it so quickly. It allows for a pretty quick CC, safely on the low ground, start stim (or combat shield) early and I've found it's virtually a build order win against blink builds.
To me that is an advanced build you could use if you truly understand your opponent and how they react.
Let me explain. It does not give the attack and safety of a 2 rax and not as great an economy lead as a FE.
Its basically a mind-game pressure build where you hope to trick the protoss to over-prepare defenses (chronoboosting or cutting probes). Its the equivalent of bunker pressuring a zerg. I am assuming you must get 1 marine before the marauder to hide your intentions from the scouting probe to be able to catch the stalker, a Protoss should never stalker poke if they have seen a tech lab barracks.
On February 18 2012 01:14 Huggerz wrote: Love the thread, thanks for posting.
I wonder, what do you think of 1 rax marauder opener?. I do it all the time and it's hilarious when Protoss just sends their first stalker in to scout and loses it so quickly. It allows for a pretty quick CC, safely on the low ground, start stim (or combat shield) early and I've found it's virtually a build order win against blink builds.
a Protoss should never stalker poke if they have seen a tech lab barracks.
And if the do you kill it and then tab out and turn on
EPT
. I especially like the way you counter collussus (drop baiting or whatever you called it). I would offer some advice in tvz but seeing as your a full league higher than me; I'm assuming that you know everything I could possibly tell you ^_^;: 
