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Hey everyone! Not to long ago I was struggling really hard in zvp, the heavy roach play now of days is easily countered by protosses (at least at my level gm level NA, mid-high masters on kr). So I was thinking of how to fix it and I realized the one unit I have never really messed around with (except for baneling drops in overlords) was the baneling. So for the past 2 weeks I have been using banelings to GREAT success. I capitalize that specifically to show case how much more I am winning in zvp late game especially with the use of this unit called the baneling.
We all know how good banelings are vs terran and zvz, but I haven't seen it used very much in zvp and I think this is something that makes late game zvp a lot easier especially when mothership comes out! Now enough of this read below to see the guide and how I utilize the banelings along with 5 replays!
For those curious on my other guides you can locate them here:
Zerg vs Zerg hatch first vs 14/14: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583
Zerg vs Zerg Muta play: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282954
Zerg vs Terran guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211960
Zerg vs Protoss guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210354
Zerg vs Protoss Delayed Lair guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259629
Zerg vs Protoss Tier 2 aggression: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318129
Now to start things off!
--------Introduction--------
For those who have watched my stream have seen my frusteration with the match up and saw some rage. Then about a week or 2 ago I started thinking "it's time I start messing around with different compositions do something other zergs aren't doing". And as the title suggests this has to do with the baneling.
Now you are probably thinking "banelings are used with baneling drop in overlords and everything!". This is not what I am talking about when I mention banelings. I am talking about always having banelings (making them when your opponent moves out). Speed banelings obviously and not using overlord drop. Now obviously I expect a question about Storm and forcefield vs this composition!
You are right FF and Storm can cause problems, but this is why banelings aren't an early game unit as FF is way to effective vs it in the early game, they should be made only in macro games (toss takes more then his natural). If the protoss is going to 2 base all in then you should not be making banelings. The baneling should be used in a macro game and not to stop 2 base pushes unless you are going to get fast drop so that banelings can be dropped then you can.
Now with the addition of banelings you want to try to engage the protoss in an open area and flank. If you attack from one side that is much, much easier for the protoss to negate the use of banelings and less FF's to be used and then manuelly dodging storms of course.
This also has amazing late game potential. Are you sick of watching all your units get sucked into a vortex then obliterated by archons? This is extremely awesome vs that. Also if you can control the mothership and vortex the toss army and put your banelings in, the protoss army gets obliterated. I have found the mothership not as frusterating (still frusterating if you lose still to it due to mis micro on banes or not having banes  ). this makes it a lot easier where if you mess up and bunch all your broods together, they won't all get obliterated as long as you put in quiet a few banelings. I have a few replays showcasing this!
Now I know this is a long introduction to the build but now for the actual build will be assuming you are playing vs forge FE, vs non forge FE you will obviously have to adjust some timings. I just wanted to explain the purpose of the build and how banelings are strong. There are a few replays show casing this and honestly I am winning a lot more zvp then before when it goes into macro games!
--------Build order--------
9 - overlord
15 - pool
15 - drone scout (this is on maps where overlords can't get there in time to see forge FE or not)
16 - hatch
spawning pool finishes - queen + 2 sets of lings (4 lings)
21-26 - third base hatch
6:15 - 6:30 - sacrifice 1 overlord at natural, 1 in main
6:15 - 2 gas (6:30 - 3 gas your choice)
6:15 - :6:30 - evo chamber (or 2 so you can get carapace/melee)
1st 100 gas - ling speed
7:15 - Roach warren
7:15 - 8:00 - lair (your choice on when to go lair between this time period but I don't recommend much later then 8)
Lair finishes - spire/infestation pit (this is your choice on what you want to do in terms of tech).
Toss takes third base - baneling nest
now to describe the timings and what not.
The drone scout is again to see if he forge fe's assuming the overlord can't get there fast enough. This also gives you potential insight into possible proxy 2 gate (this is very rare from experience but still good to know on the off chance he does).
If you can't take your hatch on 16, try to take the third, if you can't then it will just be delayed. You should have a drone always on the probe so that you can prevent cannon block at ramp by hold positioning the ramp if he starts putting down pylons.
Now for the overlord sacrifice timings. This is perfect timing between 6:15 - 6:30 because you will see his tech or something. If on the rare occasion you see nothing that means he was hiding it by delaying until he kills the overlords which gives you more time then normal or he possibly proxied it somewhere else on the map. If you see warpgates half way done or almost done and you see 6 or something you should expect the timing to hit very soon as his warpgates are finished when his gateways finish normally if the protoss times it correctly.
If you see gateways before 7:15 being made then get roach warren asap as he is going to do some pressure.
You should still do typical roach/ling early-mid game to hold off all ins or any sort of pressure. You play normal until you get either Muta or infestors out and then that is when you want to start the transition of adding banelings into your army. Also if you kill lets say half the toss army, you can remax with roach/ling and crush the remaining half if you couldn't kill it all with banelings for whatever reason. You will get a huge build up of minerals/gas so you should easily be able to do this while taking expansions.
Also when you get your 2 evo's your main focus is melee/carapace. DO NOT GET RANGED, there is no point to getting this upgrade, especially since you should be more ling/bane heavy and makes the transition to BL's a lot stronger.
Now the reason for baneling nest when toss takes a third is that I don't think you should get banelings vs a 2 base all in as I don't see that working very well unless you are getting fast overlord drop to put banes in.
The infestation/muta is again up to you. If you prefer going mutalisks I recommend making about 15, harassing a bit and then transitioning into infestors. If you don't like mutalisks you can easily do ling/bane/infestor.
Now if you lose all your banelings because you engaged the toss army, you should remake them at some point. The baneling imo should not be a 1 time use in zvp, they are a very good unit especially when the game goes late. as banelings in vortex is amazing compared to letting 4 archons destroy your whole army! Trust me and there are a few replays show casing my point  .
I feel the baneling has been underused heavily and thought I would write a bit of a guide on it and of course with replays show casing how awesome they are. There will be about 4-5 replays show casing how awesome banelings are :D. There will be 4 players: Shew, Axslav, Switch and Bluntarded.
--------Scouting and Reacting--------
+ Show Spoiler +
Now I want to give some insight on the sacrificial overlords and how to react on what you see. If you sacrifice overlords and see a stargate, you can drone longer then normal but you should make some roaches incase they do the 3/4 gate zealot with it. This is good to get some roaches or speedlings whichever you prefer. If you make speedlings you can also punish the fast third if tosses take a super fast third after stargate.
If you see robo tech you can drone till about 8:30 - 9 minutes. He may try some early zealot pressure so do keep an eye on that, but his main attack if he does a 2 base all in won't hit until about 11 minutes. Most of the time tosses will take a third, but sometimes they will do the 2 base immortal all in.
If you see twilight, you should start making units at about 8 minutes 8:15 at the latest as he is going to do a blink all in most likely or potential DT's. When my lair finishes I always make 1 overseer so that if he goes DT's it won't damage me due to already having an overseer out. I also have lings at toss 3rd base locations so I can see when he takes a third (if he takes one) so that I can see possible sneaky bases as well or know if he's going into a macro game or all inning.
When you see gateways being warped in, pay very close attention to how close they are to finishing and how many. If he has 4 he is most likely going to do some zealot pressure so you want to make sure to have roaches out in time to stop it. Gateway timing if the toss is decent should finish as his warpgates finish so keep that in mind when making units.
--------Best way to use your banelings--------
+ Show Spoiler +
So the best way to use your banelings once you set it up is you shouldn't make them until you see the protoss army pushing out or you see he has a mothership (or it's that time of the game). Banelings do take precious gas that you would rather use on infestors if possible, but you do need to be able to morph them and flank the army once you see his army pushing out.
Now the best way to use banelings is imo 2 separate hotkeys with ling/bane in each hotkey (and any roaches you have made so far). This makes flanking easier and you should always have both sides of the army away from each other so as to make flanking easier. This also makes it harder for protoss to know where both sides of your army are located.
For example, if you have 1 hotkey at your naturl and the other hotkey somewhere on the map where you can easily get a flank from front and back side, it will be hard for him to know this. This makes him also have to be more alert on the map and not just think it's coming from one side, this means if he is just FF'ing one side, BAM the other side smacks into his backside and can do a ton of damage. Not a lot of zergs tend to do flanking with banelings in zvp so this will come as a surprise to many protoss players out there right now as I think banelings are being used the wrong way (only being used in overlords).
You should also make sure banelings don't hit immortals or archons as that is a waste of banelings and will weaken your attack if you do this. Make sure they are aiming for the zealots, stalkers, high templar. Pretty much anything but archon/immortal. Those take to many baneling shots and will not do enough damage to his army if you do this or he separates his army from those and you hit them. So just like in zvt, make sure they go for a bunch of units!
--------Using Banelings in the late game-------
+ Show Spoiler +So late game baneling control is a bit different then from mid game or when there isn't a mothership about. When there is a mothership out, there is no point in flanking as the game is more vortex or not. You should try to grab the mothership and vortex the protoss army if possible. You want to try to avoid engaging the toss army until the vortexes are spent. If you lose your banelings and he still has vortex you have given him an advantage if he can get a good vortex off. If he gets a good vortex off you are going to lose all the units in there (assuming you haven't killed his archons). So late game is more trying to get his mothership or just waiting until he casts vortex, puts units in there and then putting in banelings. I have noticed a lot of tosses just put a lot of their own units in the vortex and not just the archons, so this makes banelings even more effective. You will see this in a couple games from the replays I have uploaded
All the replays are high masters/gm from the NA server. Unfortunately since I have been doing banelings 1-2 weeks all my zvp's on korea have been 2 base all ins so haven't been able to test it on there T_T.
Replays in 1 pack (5 replays)
http://www.mediafire.com/?ryb3pclybnbofu5
FAQ (will be updated)
+ Show Spoiler +What do you think about adding Ultralisks in the late-game with this composition rather than Broodlords?I think ultra's may have potential if you lose your first set of broodlords possibly. This really depends imo, I think if toss is more stalker heavy and not any immortals then doing a switch to ultra/bane/infestor right after you lose broodlords (if this happens) can be good. But in general I don't think starting off ultra/bane/infestor is good and think it will get crushed most of the time. I'll be honest I haven't messed with it so the ultra part for me is just theory on how I plan on mixing them in, in general though I think ultra's are god awful in zvp and would rather have pure broods then ultras but I could be wrong as it would take some testing which I will do when I do some practice games to see how ultra/bane/infestor does and update . i also couldn't help but notice how you mention FF and storm as a strong deterrent in the early game, what makes this any different towards the late game if the protoss manages to keep his sentries and transitions into HT towards the late game?(a very likely possibility since muta are one of your go-to units with this strategy)When I say early game I am more meaning FF not storm. With flanking and a decent open area where it requires more then 4 FF's to block off everything FF won't pose a problem. Storm is more anticipating storm and dodging it or getting your units into his by the time storm is off. A couple replays do showcase storms (me vs shew has storm and me vs bluntarded also has storm play iirc). It just is a matter of control and I don't think storm is a hard counter to where banelings can't be used. It's just anticipation and having to avoid it for the most part.
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i love you + your guides <3
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I usually like your guides but I think this is your worst guide. It's content can be summed up as "try using banelings in your end game composition, they counter vortex."
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
Have you been watching Losira's stream? For the past couple months he has been using them in this way in several compositions. Basically going along with the idea "as long as I crush this army I'll be ahead" and a way to "soften" the really powerful timings Protoss can hit before Brood Lords. Also just great with roaches because they are so supply efficient and roaches do so much better against smaller armies.
You should check his stream out/VODs because he basically uses them exactly as you have described.
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On May 18 2012 16:02 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Have you been watching Losira's stream? For the past couple months he has been using them in this way in several compositions. Basically going along with the idea "as long as I crush this army I'll be ahead" and a way to "soften" the really powerful timings Protoss can hit before Brood Lords. Also just great with roaches because they are so supply efficient and roaches do so much better against smaller armies.
You should check his stream out/VODs because he basically uses them exactly as you have described.
Oh I watch his stream whenever I can, but when I see him go banelings I only see him use them in overlords. I watched him quiet a bit when he was streaming or used to stream a lot but stopped and I never really saw baneling play in zvp other then overlord drop with banes. Mainly I saw his zvt more then zvp seemed he was always playing terran lol.
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What do you think about adding Ultralisks in the late-game with this composition rather than Broodlords?
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while this guide is nice in terms of discussing the zerg opening and how to transition into banelings, it doesnt really discuss anything in detail about why the baneling is a good choice (outside of defending against motherships and vortex)
personally i feel like the baneling trades very poorly in the late game unless the protoss army is fungaled into place and the banes are allowed to get their maximum effect (assuming no colossus or storm or FF)
i also couldent help but notice how you mention FF and storm as a strong deterent in the early game, what makes this any different towards the late game if the protoss manages to keep his sentries and transitions into HT towards the late game?(a very likely possibility since muta are one of your go-to units with this strategy)
from the title and the intro i was thinking you were writing a guide on how to use banelings and get the most out of them against protoss, but this feels more of a "how to transition into banes without getting killed by a 2 base all-in" guide, and if its supposed to be that just ignore me!
Im not arguing the effectiveness of the strategy, im sure you deal with many of these things in your replays, just some things i feel like you missed in your guide
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On May 18 2012 16:10 Fencer710 wrote:
What do you think about adding Ultralisks in the late-game with this composition rather than Broodlords?
ultras go awesomely with banes and infestors because there is no way to FF everything back, fungals keep enemy units in place and storms as a gas investment are terrible against ultras, however you have to beware things like colossus and archons (or even immortal/archon/blink stalker) which could result in a bad day for you.
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On May 18 2012 16:10 Fencer710 wrote:
What do you think about adding Ultralisks in the late-game with this composition rather than Broodlords?
I think ultra's may have potential if you lose your first set of broodlords possibly. This really depends imo, I think if toss is more stalker heavy and not any immortals then doing a switch to ultra/bane/infestor right after you lose broodlords (if this happens) can be good. But in general I don't think starting off ultra/bane/infestor is good and think it will get crushed most of the time.
I'll be honest I haven't messed with it so the ultra part for me is just theory on how I plan on mixing them in, in general though I think ultra's are god awful in zvp and would rather have pure broods then ultras.
On May 18 2012 16:12 AGIANTSMURF wrote:while this guide is nice in terms of discussing the zerg opening and how to transition into banelings, it doesnt really discuss anything in detail about why the baneling is a good choice (outside of defending against motherships and vortex) personally i feel like the baneling trades very poorly in the late game unless the protoss army is fungaled into place and the banes are allowed to get their maximum effect (assuming no colossus or storm or FF) i also couldent help but notice how you mention FF and storm as a strong deterent in the early game, what makes this any different towards the late game if the protoss manages to keep his sentries and transitions into HT towards the late game?(a very likely possibility since muta are one of your go-to units with this strategy) from the title and the intro i was thinking you were writing a guide on how to use banelings and get the most out of them against protoss, but this feels more of a "how to transition into banes without getting killed by a 2 base all-in" guide, and if its supposed to be that just ignore me! Im not arguing the effectiveness of the strategy, im sure you deal with many of these things in your replays, just some things i feel like you missed in your guide
I have added a couple sections as I realized I didn't go in enough depth about how to use banelings.
When I say early game I am more meaning FF not storm. With flanking and a decent open area where it requires more then 4 FF's to block off everything FF won't pose a problem. Storm is more anticipating storm and dodging it or getting your units into his by the time storm is off. A couple replays do showcase storms (me vs shew has storm and me vs bluntarded also has storm play iirc). It just is a matter of control and I don't think storm is a hard counter to where banelings can't be used. It's just anticipation and having to avoid it for the most part.
With flanking with banelings as well it makes it hard for toss to get perfect FF's to block off his whole army in time, if he's not looking there for even a few seconds you can have banelings hitting his army, if he does manage to get the whole area blocked off, just retreat and wait until it goes away (not like his army can move either ^^).
Your post is something that made me realize I forgot to put some stuff in the guide, thank you and again questions can only make the guide stronger or give me things to test on that I might have trouble verse! I encourage questions or something to how people think of how effective this could be ^_^.
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Interesting guide - why don't you just write a comprehensive zvp guide? it kind of seems like you are half doing that here, and then the rest baneling stuff. That's what I did with my fast third vs ffe guide, which became the awesome guide that it is today. I'd love to hear what a high level player like yourself has to offer. Things like...
When my lair finishes I always make 1 overseer so that if he goes DT's it won't damage me due to already having an overseer out.
Do you do this always, or just when you see a twilight council? That's a really interesting concept. I make 1 overseer to scout obviously. Sometimes I make it if i see a twilight council.... but do you like always do this when you see a twilight? That's really cool if you did. I still get nightmares about one day running into a toss smart enough on ladder to do the build Huk did vs Nestea on antiga in the showmatch series (where most people were offrace vs offracing, like mkp toss, mc zerg), the 2 base blink all-in with DTs. Nestea even made spores seeing the twilight, and then cancelled them all when he 'figured out' it was a blink all-in with all the aggressive stalkers. then he die.
Now the best way ... is imo 2 separate hotkeys
I go:
1 army
2 infestors
3 air (mutas, later bl/corruptors)
4 queens
6 mass spines (eventually they become 1 due to pure bl/infestor army)
Do you think having some army with my infestor group is a good idea? Do you think I should go roaches on 1, lings on 2? Or should I have half of my roach/ling on 1, another half on 2? Or should i not be a scrub and add another hotkey in there (maybe ~ or some custom key, i'll need one more for the viper in hots eventually)? I mean, I just HATE when people lose soooo many precious infestors because they a-moved and the infestors derp their way into an army. I at least never lose my infestors, imo you can't lose such a precious unit (just like mutas). I notice you dont hotkey your queens, maybe that's why you afford the extra hotkey.
Using Banelings in the late game
I've always felt better going with more infestors than banelings. I dont really have trouble with motherships, I just FG it to keep it out of range of my broodlords and spam ITs, and that's assuming I can't get a NP off because toss isn't half a tard or the map isn't wide open (shakuras, for example). Or is the merit of banelings is that you can be aggressive, instead of being defensive with your bl/infestor, or at least super super super cautious and making sure not to rush in and not be clumped (ie slow crawling, and then using long range of broods and IT spam to force him to come forward, so then you FG him over and over).
I watched the first replay, and it wasn't good ;/
protoss had 2 archons, 2 immortls, 2 zealots, 2 stalkers, 2 ht at the 14 minute mark. He was ridiculously greedy in tech, and his build made no sense at all. Super fast robo, make 4 sentries and an immortal, then get a bunch of gateways, never use them and get HT tech and a third, have less than 6 units until your mutas arrive, warps in stalkers, loses everything when just a larva inject round of roaches would have killed off his third and basically been GG as he would be too far behind to win. Really, in this game you won so hard when you made more than 20 units, killed his 5 units. I couldn't understand you teching so hard to mutas either, when you clearly saw a fast robo and gateways. Maybe this guy was a practice partner and you guys understood not to all-in eachother? Because I feel in a real game, you would have made SOME roach/ling that would have killed his third, and he would have made SOME units to attack you and kill you for going to mutas against a 2 base toss who's army you could not hold off. It would have sense if you saw him teching so hard to HT, but all indications were that he was doing a hardcore immortal/sentry all-in with his quick robo and lots of gates. He never made colossi either - which was weird. Toss getting a third succesfully against mutas tend to push only once they have a couple colossi, and he knew you weren't dedicating to mutas and were going infestors too anyways, which makes the decision not to get colossi for his push even weirder. The same army value, but a few colossi, would have gone a long way. he never made units either, and then takes a fourth with such a tiny army.
I'll watch the other replays if they are better, but please tell me which ones to watch. 6 spines and speedlings would never have held if toss just pushed and made units instead of HT tech and a third, while you went mutas dishonestly.
This game never really showcased banelings i feel. Yea, you kind of killed his pitiful colossus-less army that was stupidly small , but roach/ling/infestor would have killed it just as easily, for cheaper, and with less casualties. then you just sort of closed the game with broodlords, not banelings, but he was just so dead anyways. this toss techs way too hard - he played really weird. he would never make units, and then just tech really weird, and hard - like his fast fleet beacon when his entire army just died, ht on 2 base, etc.
anyways i'm sure your other games are better, just let me know which ones to watch. im sure my above questions could be answered by watching a good game.
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On May 18 2012 17:50 Belial88 wrote:Interesting guide - why don't you just write a comprehensive zvp guide? it kind of seems like you are half doing that here, and then the rest baneling stuff. That's what I did with my fast third vs ffe guide, which became the awesome guide that it is today. I'd love to hear what a high level player like yourself has to offer. Things like... Show nested quote +When my lair finishes I always make 1 overseer so that if he goes DT's it won't damage me due to already having an overseer out. Do you do this always, or just when you see a twilight council? That's a really interesting concept. I make 1 overseer to scout obviously. Sometimes I make it if i see a twilight council.... but do you like always do this when you see a twilight? That's really cool if you did. I still get nightmares about one day running into a toss smart enough on ladder to do the build Huk did vs Nestea on antiga in the showmatch series (where most people were offrace vs offracing, like mkp toss, mc zerg), the 2 base blink all-in with DTs. Nestea even made spores seeing the twilight, and then cancelled them all when he 'figured out' it was a blink all-in with all the aggressive stalkers. then he die. I go: 1 army 2 infestors 3 air (mutas, later bl/corruptors) 4 queens 6 mass spines (eventually they become 1 due to pure bl/infestor army) Do you think having some army with my infestor group is a good idea? Do you think I should go roaches on 1, lings on 2? Or should I have half of my roach/ling on 1, another half on 2? Or should i not be a scrub and add another hotkey in there (maybe ~ or some custom key, i'll need one more for the viper in hots eventually)? I mean, I just HATE when people lose soooo many precious infestors because they a-moved and the infestors derp their way into an army. I at least never lose my infestors, imo you can't lose such a precious unit (just like mutas). I notice you dont hotkey your queens, maybe that's why you afford the extra hotkey. I've always felt better going with more infestors than banelings. I dont really have trouble with motherships, I just FG it to keep it out of range of my broodlords and spam ITs, and that's assuming I can't get a NP off because toss isn't half a tard or the map isn't wide open (shakuras, for example). Or is the merit of banelings is that you can be aggressive, instead of being defensive with your bl/infestor, or at least super super super cautious and making sure not to rush in and not be clumped (ie slow crawling, and then using long range of broods and IT spam to force him to come forward, so then you FG him over and over). I watched the first replay, and it wasn't good ;/ protoss had 2 archons, 2 immortls, 2 zealots, 2 stalkers, 2 ht at the 14 minute mark. He was ridiculously greedy in tech, and his build made no sense at all. Super fast robo, make 4 sentries and an immortal, then get a bunch of gateways, never use them and get HT tech and a third, have less than 6 units until your mutas arrive, warps in stalkers, loses everything when just a larva inject round of roaches would have killed off his third and basically been GG as he would be too far behind to win. Really, in this game you won so hard when you made more than 20 units, killed his 5 units. I couldn't understand you teching so hard to mutas either, when you clearly saw a fast robo and gateways. Maybe this guy was a practice partner and you guys understood not to all-in eachother? Because I feel in a real game, you would have made SOME roach/ling that would have killed his third, and he would have made SOME units to attack you and kill you for going to mutas against a 2 base toss who's army you could not hold off. It would have sense if you saw him teching so hard to HT, but all indications were that he was doing a hardcore immortal/sentry all-in with his quick robo and lots of gates. He never made colossi either - which was weird. Toss getting a third succesfully against mutas tend to push only once they have a couple colossi, and he knew you weren't dedicating to mutas and were going infestors too anyways, which makes the decision not to get colossi for his push even weirder. The same army value, but a few colossi, would have gone a long way. he never made units either, and then takes a fourth with such a tiny army. I'll watch the other replays if they are better, but please tell me which ones to watch. 6 spines and speedlings would never have held if toss just pushed and made units instead of HT tech and a third, while you went mutas dishonestly. This game never really showcased banelings i feel. Yea, you kind of killed his pitiful colossus-less army that was stupidly small , but roach/ling/infestor would have killed it just as easily, for cheaper, and with less casualties. then you just sort of closed the game with broodlords, not banelings, but he was just so dead anyways. this toss techs way too hard - he played really weird. he would never make units, and then just tech really weird, and hard - like his fast fleet beacon when his entire army just died, ht on 2 base, etc. anyways i'm sure your other games are better, just let me know which ones to watch. im sure my above questions could be answered by watching a good game.
One vs axslav/shew would be good ones for sure, not sure which replay you are talking about I am going to guess one of the switch ones as he sometimes plays super greedy .
Anyway to answer your questions.
I have written a few zvp guides each normally are quiet a bit different then one another as the meta game shifts. I may write a huge guide on zvp someday but still not sure yet ^^.
For the overseer question yes I always get an overseer as soon as my lair finishes. It's only 50/50 and keeps me 100% safe from DT's. I do this even if I don't scout a twilight because sometimes it's hidden or I may not see it. The only times I will not make an overseer is if he goes stargate (and that being because all my bases will have at least 1 spore crawler at each of them so no point). I think it's very worth it and you have no idea how amusing it is to see 3+ dt's running to your main or something only to die instantly lol :D. After a certain part of a game I will normally make an overseer to be at all my bases so that a late DT switch doesn't kill me in anyway or do a ton of damage.
For the hotkey question no infestors should always be on a separate hotkey. In general it bugs me when players use 1 control group, but it really bugs me when they use 1 control group for an army with infestors in the same hotkey. I think this is god awful to do, especially with infestors and would always recommend to have them on a separate hotkey.
I do roach/ling/bane on 1 hotkey and same set on another. Early game or if he's 2 base all inning I normally use 1 hotkey for lings, 1 for roaches but however you do it is fine just as long as you have 2 separate control groups I feel unless you just absolutely hate it but that's what I recommend.
The thing with relying only on infestors is you mess up once you lose your whole army and there will be nothing you can do about it once those archons enter the vortex. I have found this completely frusterating when I tried to spread but vortex went out and all I could do was seethe in anger as I watched the vortex end and see my whole army disappear in a split second. I still get a lot of infestors as mass infestor is good, but mass infestor with bane + bl is even better imo .
But again for 2 replays I would recommend me vs axslav, the one of me vs shew is kinda boring are first engagement doesn't happen until 25 minutes into the game.
The reason I don't do roach/ling aggression anymore is everytime I try they always hold and I end up losing as that style just stopped working for me. When I said I was raging vs toss on stream this was the main reason, the style of mass roach/ling aggression and what not hasn't worked for me in awhile and most tosses are good with making buildings to wall off with immortals + sentries just makes it impossible to break and yeah just avoid doing it as everytime I do it and think I will break him, I am proven wrong except on the rare occasion .
Do realize if I think a 2 base push is coming I will be making roach/ling. There are ways to know if the protoss is doing a 2 base all in or a third, if he takes a third there is no way he can do pressure without dying. I save money for mutalisks obviously, but if I see he is going to push I am going to spend my money on roach/ling to hold it off. I won't go mutalisks either if he doesn't have a third base as I will be preparing for whatever all in he has. The one you think I would die where I went mutalisks I should have had a roach warren, if I didn't this was a rare game and I must have been trying to be more greedy then usual but not sure which replay you were talking about so hard to say xD.
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First of all, i think you deserve a badge for being a quality poster throughout the forums =)
second, here is my 2 cents about ZvP with banelings:
- Burrowed Banelings:
+ Show Spoiler +against 2 base play, sometimes i go for burrowed banelings if i don't see a robo. Burrow 3/7 banelings (to either kill sentries only or kill all units^^), but this is rare since usually toss will go for robotics anyway (since roaches are so common, they want immortals, and if they dont want immortals, they want observer for blink stalker abuse. Even if they go Stargate they will follow up with super fast robo bay for colossus vs infestors/hydras.) So do this only if you want to gamble on him having his obs out of position or if you can snipe it or if you have the landmine behind your frontal creep tumors, since if he has an obs you will know by him attacking the creep tumor, giving you time to unburrow your trap and join in with the rest of your army. Still, blowing up 7 sentries (or 10 stalker) is hillarious and usually instant win for you. Requirements: Kinda fast lair (around the same time the stephano build gets it), 100/100 for burrow (which is always useful anyway), baneling nest. Yes, this is sorta gimmicky, but wins you games straight up vs 11 gate and such stuff
- Muta play:
+ Show Spoiler +I prefer muta play with banelings, and there are several reasons why to do so. First, your banelings get screwed by Forcefields. Second, Mutas can not only easily snipe sentries that are slightly out of position, they also force your opponent to spend all of his gas on HT/Stalker/Archons. That means, no colossus ball that melts your banelings before they are able to connect, no mass void rays, and even in the offchance he goes phoenix - well, they don't do well at all vs banelings/lings. Third, he will build less zealots (because he spends his minerals mostly on Stalkers). You would think that this is bad, because Zealots are light units and banelings do extra damage? Wrong. Your banelings might to more damage to Zealots, but they are also worth less than stalkers. Furthermore, if you can't kill them all, your lings will get owned badly. So there is a trade-off between killing them easier, but also get killed easier. I prefer less Zealots, so your lings can do real work on stalkers. Also see my remark about ultras.
Please note that muta play is great when you are ahead/slightly ahead, but it is often auto-lose if you are behind. So chose your tech depending on how you came out of the early game (early third did not get canceled/crushed? You are usually fine to go. You defeated his 2 base semi-allin without economic losses? Go muta)
- Ultras vs Brood lords:
+ Show Spoiler +In late game, i prefer Ultras over Brood Lords. Not only do they crush forcefields (thus allowing your banelings to connect), but they also do terrible terrible damage vs Stalkers and Archons (which your opponent should mainly have, especially if you showed him you have baneling drop and/or mutas). They are good in archon toilets, and they tank a ton of damage until your banelings have blown up your opponents army. And they have the same speed as banelings, so they form like the ultimate symbiosis with banelings (yes my english sucks^^). Since you went for the mobile army anyway, Brood Lords will severely cripple your ability to hop around the map as you please (and this was one of your main strengths anyway). So you can go for Brood Lords, but only do so if any of the following applies to the given situation:
a) The map sucks aka has too many little chokes
b) Your opponent plays in turtle mode
c) Your opponent skipped on stalkers and went for Archon/HT/Colossus/Void Ray/Carrier
d) Your opponent goes air-heavy (since you need corruptors most likely anyway in that situation, so why not make use of them afterwards)
e) You have a high infestor count and can retain them
f) You invested heavily in air upgrades for your mutas already (like, 2/2, or got double spire or sth along those lines)
Still, Brood Lords appear to be weaker with this style, not only because of the already mentioned speed differences, but also because you will usually spend your minerals on zerglings instead of mass spines, thus having a hard time getting to brood lords without dying. Furthermore, you will not have ranged units to keep your opponent away from your Brood Lords (other than infestors, but they don't always do the trick) when you have not so many Brood Lords yet. Oh, and this is a thread about banelings, which don't seem to work that well with Brood Lords anyway, they get stuck behind Brood Lings, your opponent usually will have colossi anyway to take care of Brood Lings (thus your banelings get zapped too), and he will have archons for an archon toilet (and as good as banelings might be in a toilet when your opponents full army walked in, they have about the same game-losing effect when you send them all into a vortex with only 3 archons inside. Don't forget this, send them only in in the offchance that you can NP the mothership and get the opponents army in the vortex. The full army.). I think i made my point about Brood Lords being the inferior choice most of the time.
- Baneling control:
+ Show Spoiler +Never forget to control your banelings. Sure you can position your army perfectly and then a-move, but your banelings should be on move-command nearly all the time (exceptions: Either they are hugging the heart of the opponents unit ball, or you are busy with fungals). Just like in ZvT you never want them to blow up on tanks/thors ever, in ZvP you dont want them to blow up on the 2 Zealots that charged ahead, or the one stalker that got left there after blinking the others, etc. Even if you reach your enemy, often times it is advisable to still move command, since your opponents units will usually shoot the banelings closest to them anyway, so it is not your job to blow your banelings up, you just keep them close. Oh, and never ever try to blow up an archon. Ever.
- About infestors:
+ Show Spoiler +If your opponent gets blink stalkers up, you either need a ton of heavy upgraded lings, or a huge army lead with ultra ling, or you simply need a couple infestors to root your opponents stalkers in place for your banelings to connect. When your opponent is capable of basic micro, you need them in your army as soon as you think he has blink (or know he has blink). The only exception here would be if you go muta ling and have the lings well upgraded, since lings chew through stalkers and mutas add just that little extra dps in a straight up fight. Then again, it is very fragile and depends on him not having many upgraded Zealots, so you need Infestors sooner or later anyway. My favourite usage of them is getting mutas, then infestors + neural parasite. Your opponent will usually go for a couple of archons (~2-6) as soon as he sees the mutas, so in the following engagement i just neural parasite the archons and crush his army easily (since he has little to no anti-ling, and little to no anti-muta anymore. Plus, archons hurt him too, and he has no meatshield). Do not underestimate the power of neural parasite when there are no Colossus around! And if he has HT and uses them for feedback, he will not be able to use them for storms. Btw, never forget the burrow upgrade for your infestors. Burrowing them after usage has won many zerg games by retaining your most gas heavy unit.
- About combating HT with storm:
+ Show Spoiler +Usually your opponent will go HT with storm if you go for mutas. The good thing is, you will not lose automatically. The bad thing is, you have to care even more than before how you position your army. You can use mutas (if you have them) to snipe HTs, and if you went infestors get at least burrow so there is less chance of chain feedback (he has to have an obs in perfect position for that, which protoss often lack). If you feel really lucky you might want to try a neural + feedback on his HT, but this is dangerous and mostly not advisable (but if he doesnt pay attention, can win you the fight). But all this is worthless if you do not split your army at all. It takes two decend storms to annihilate 100 lings + 50 banelings, and we don't want that to happen now, do we? Get your units in a nice arch, they should never stream in in a line. This also often involves not attack moving your zerglings, but right clicking behind your opponents army, and only attack moving after full surround (so not all your zerglings rush for his frontal one unit where he storms and you lose, but they remain as split up as possible, plus getting great surface area to deal damage). The very same applies for your baneling here. For mutas, the most effective tactic i have found so far is if you commit to an engagement, just let them fly directly on top of your opponents army (of course lings should lead the charge). Sure, you will lose more mutas than if they were to attack from behind your ling front, but two good storms and your mutas disappear, so that is unfortunately not an option. Plus, when there are HT involved, there should be archons too, so you want to magic box anyway (and doing a magic box next to your opponents army is kinda ineffective, since only a fraction of your already too weak fliers will shoot). Magic box them directly on top of your opponent, and even if he storms your mutas, he will storm himself too (which seems to be the most fair tradeoff). If you have 1-6 mutas left after such an engagement, use them as scouts and to snipe late game warp prisms, do not just sacrifice them. More on that later ^^
- Random stuff to keep in mind:
+ Show Spoiler +- As always against Protoss without Brood Lord armada, you will most of the time get incredible cost ineffective. It is key to have more bases and economy and defend it. It is too easy to lose most of your army to a bad engagement (which should be avoided at all costs, even if it means losing your forth), and you want to remake it. - You build lings, don't forget macro hatcheries. Depending on how many Queens inject, in my experience (my macro ain't pro) it is good to have one macro hatch for each base you have (plus at least 3 injecting Queens). For each additional Queen injecting, scratch one macro Hatchery. If your macro is as bad as mine mid-late game, get a couple more (i rather spend extra 700 minerals on hatcheries and build zerglings worth of 600 minerals than to die with 1300 in the bank because i was short on larvae. And how easily one can spike up to so much minerals!) - Even if you don't go for baneling drops, getting drop tech and dropping +2 banelings on your opponents economy really does help. Even if it does no damage, it will put constant fear into your opponents heart, which is always worth it. - As soon as a Stargate time window is over (thus no air from protoss until mothership), go spread your overlords all over the edges of the map. You do not want to lose to any warp prisma shenanigans, be it early, mid or late game. And a full warp in in your main is devastating in any stage of the game. - Spread creep, you need the mobility for good surrounds. Also, to kill your creep, protoss will most often stupidly walk onto it instead of hugging walls (terran is much smarter using only few marines + scan), thus leaving himself in the perfect position for you to engage. Also Queens are cool, even if their arms are now useless. Why can't they have wheels? Need to evolve them to become faster off creep and less fat  - Don't forget upgrades. Don't! You might want to go early hive anyway for ultras to deny Forcefields and adrenal glands, so try to constantly upgrade your melee + carapace without any pause in between. Due to the nature of Ling attack/Zealot attack/Zealot armor, upgrades are much much more important than if you went roaches. Good upgrades will not automatically win you the game, you still need a good game plan and good engagements, but bad upgrades will lose you the game, even with good engagements. Addendum, Edit or whatever you might want to call it: - About hotkeys: I usually put my lings + banelings on the same hotkey. Spread them before battle, a-move them into the army of your opponent, Ctrl+Left click on one of the baneling icons in your selected units window (to select all banelings), right click (= move command) behind/into the heart of your opponents army. If you get roaches/ultras, you can add them to this hotkey, but never add mutas or infestors to it. Sometimes you might want to spread your lings behind your banelings, so they both arrive at the very same time for the battle - Runbys are good, but won't work on higher levels due to good building placement. Use drop technique to get slightly more units into your opponents base than one full warpin can handle (and make sure his army is out of position), otherwise the damage you do will be minimized.
TL;DR: Have fun blowing things up =)
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on what map cant a overlord go fast enough? The generous 20% speed buff makes that scenario almost impossible
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do roach/ling/bane on 1 hotkey and same set on another. Early game or if he's 2 base all inning I normally use 1 hotkey for lings, 1 for roaches but however you do it is fine just as long as you have 2 separate control groups I feel unless you just absolutely hate it but that's what I recommend.
I think I'll get in the habit of using 2 hotkeys for army, and just use 2 or 3 depending if i have infestors or air units or not. I mean I already do that in early game with ling/bane and roach/ling. I dont always have infestors or mutas out and by the time i do i can afford to be lazy with hotkeys anyways.
The thing with relying only on infestors is you mess up once you lose your whole army and there will be nothing you can do about it once those archons enter the vortex. I have found this completely frusterating when I tried to spread but vortex went out and all I could do was seethe in anger as I watched the vortex end and see my whole army disappear in a split second. I still get a lot of infestors as mass infestor is good, but mass infestor with bane + bl is even better imo .
well... you screw up once with banes, you are screwed too. The only thing I see meritous in your baneling stuff here, is maybe having banelings allows you to be aggressive, because it makes you immune, to some level, to vortex, whereas otherwise you really ahve to be extreeeemely careful and defensive at a time you should be offensive.
It is frustrating, but I find having a TON of respect for the mothership, and mass infestors, works fine for me. I'll watch your replays, and keep a close eye on my games to see what's going on. Maybe I'll get a friend, and we'll practice what works better in unit tester - banes, or more infestors.
But again for 2 replays I would recommend me vs axslav, the one of me vs shew is kinda boring are first engagement doesn't happen until 25 minutes into the game.
thats fine, just a game where you guys are even and the banelings did something to change the tide of the game that couldnt have been done with another unit (like roaches instead of banes in your engagement on antiga vs that greedy tech toss). Can you say which maps these games occured on? Your replay upload thing doesnt have player names in them, or titles, its just the map name. no dropbox?
The reason I don't do roach/ling aggression anymore is everytime I try they always hold and I end up losing as that style just stopped working for me. When I said I was raging vs toss on stream this was the main reason, the style of mass roach/ling aggression and what not hasn't worked for me in awhile and most tosses are good with making buildings to wall off with immortals + sentries just makes it impossible to break and yeah just avoid doing it as everytime I do it and think I will break him, I am proven wrong except on the rare occasion .
I totally understand what you are saying here, I completely agree. I'm so afraid to ever do anything that's slightly all-in, and if I had the choice between making low tier units and doing aggression, or just expanding, with a lead i get, i always just expand and be defensive.
But I think you could have saw this guy was ridiculously greedy - you saw him take the third, with an overseer you could have seen zero army and HT tech. I guess mutas are a good 'aggressive' option to punish fast third no stalkers too, and you did end up doing damage with it...
I guess what I'm really trying to say, is that if toss pushed out instead of took his third and made HT tech, with the exact same build he did, you would have straight up died. Im not sure if that guy was like diamond or what, he had a really terrible build, but he still could have easily warped in a round of sentries and stalkers, and pushed and killed you. What I'm saying, is that you played dishonestly (just as dishonestly as he did, really). You NEED to make roaches to defend against toss, and you don't know they are going 3 base until that third is planted, and by then it's too late. You made only 5 spines and 30 lings as defense, which would have been ripped apart by his immortal/7gate, if he had simply pushed.
And with those same bare minimum of roaches you HAVE to make to play honestly, in case toss pushed, you would have poked at his third to see if you could do anything, and you would have killed it off. You wouldn't make more roaches, or even lings - you'd just be active with your army, check things out. And you wouldve realized, omg, i made 5 roaches but I have enough to force a cancel on toss' third and have total map control and win the game because toss can't take his third in reasonable time.
Do realize if I think a 2 base push is coming I will be making roach/ling. There are ways to know if the protoss is doing a 2 base all in or a third, if he takes a third there is no way he can do pressure without dying. I save money for mutalisks obviously, but if I see he is going to push I am going to spend my money on roach/ling to hold it off. I won't go mutalisks either if he doesn't have a third base as I will be preparing for whatever all in he has. The one you think I would die where I went mutalisks I should have had a roach warren, if I didn't this was a rare game and I must have been trying to be more greedy then usual but not sure which replay you were talking about so hard to say xD.
it was on antiga. you bottom left, him top right. he had lots of immortal archon, and you NPd it all in endgame.
How did you know he was going for his third? Maybe you saw something that I didn't see, but to me, there seemed to be absolutely no indication he was going for a third instead of sentry/immortal all-in. Fast robo, which you scouted, a ton of gateways, which you scouted.
I dont even take my 5th and 6th gas against Toss unless I know for sure they aren't 2basing, i find even doing that is really really risky.
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Hi BLADE!
First of all, thanks for all the guides, you give great value to the community. And i will certainly try to mix in some banelings from now on .
Provided you have always been very open about trying new stuff, different compositions, etc, let me invite you to try something out. It's been doing wonders for me in the same late game scenarios, and probably you will be able to refine it a lot better, maybe write your next guide. I'm mid-high Masters NA (just so it is clear this is not a bronze idea ).
I've always HATED infestors. I still play mutalingbane vs terran. And vs protoss i always manage to have them feedbacked, or sometimes they are just not enough antiair. Like... infestors die or have depleted mana, and there are still some voidrays in the battle, which means, receiving terrible terrible damage ad infinitum. Infested terrans take time to hatch and usually die before even spawning. Fungaling also takes a lot of time, and depends on the protoss having all of them clumped up.
This happens a lot in the "final fight". Voidrays with the momma ship can be a huge pain, as your antiair is usually just corruptors which suck monkeyballs vs voids 1vs1, without mentioning that there are also stalkers, storms, archons, etc also hitting the corruptors. And even if you manage to kill the mommaship/voids with the corruptors in such an inneficient way, you end up with all that wasted supply not participating in the battle.
And both corruptors and infestors/broods (and banes) are very gas heavy, so you are usually bankrupt in gas, floating minerals and thus making lings. And you only have "so much" area for lings to cause damage, after a certain amount of lings they will just take turns to hit anything (and die to storms, collosus, etc).
SO.
All this boils down to... HYDRAS (instead of infestors/banes? in your lategame compo). You are gas starved, and thus 1 infestor can be 3 hydras. Which:
- Give your army a lot more hitpoints.
- It's garanteed dps, as you will not be insta feedbacked.
- The slowness of hydras doesn't matter anymore, as you are escorting broodlords and crawling for the kill.
- Concentrated fire guarantee kills, sometimes fungaling just softens many units but kill none, and they regen shields very quickly. For example, if they manage to make a very tight blink under the broods and shift click in all of them, they usually manage to kill most of them. Cause only stalkers at the border of the pack are hit by broodlings, and chain fungals don't kill fast enough (and depend on you being super quick). The stalkers will die, but so will the broods, which are the core of your deathball, without them your cost/effectiveness drops to 10% . And if you get too tight, vortex and storm is super extra effective.
With hydras, you have to position and micro differently. You want to be very spread out and have everything on hold position, so nothing gets stacked up (and get vortexed) as the battle begins. And spread hydras i mean SPREAD (preemptively and on hold, like marines expecting the baneling train), so they are not AOEd with collosus or templars. And of course, start adding creep and spines nonstop if you are maxed.
I think one of the key things is that with hydras you have good antiair. And thus can both protect both your broodlords and your overseers from blink or air snipes.
Losing your overseers to blink or voidrays with a mothership still around, even if you bring another just 10 seconds later can lose you the game right there. As he will be able to move forward and engage your army without being attacked by the broods from the beginning, which makes all the difference in the world, cause the broodlings have that "accumulation" or "critical mass" bonus.
And without proper antiair, the protoss can wear you down kitting with 3 or 4 voidrays. Spread out, its a waste of fungals. Corruptors suck against them, at least supply wise (and we are in a maxed situation) and are not "all purpose" like voids are. Even if you kill them, now corruptors are wasted supply. The voids just go back, stalkers get a voley on the corruptors and blink back to escape from broodlings almost for free, as they become cloaked under the mommaship.
So the hydra broodlord combination i think is very "stable". There are no split second situations in which you go from being OK to totaly fucked up. (Like all infestors feedbacked, or having no vision against a cloaked army, instalosing all your broods, etc.)
Using banes you are always "trading". With hydras you are sometimes even killing "for free", as the broodlings are tanking and the hydras doing massive dps.
I will try to upload a couple replays when i get home. I have some in which the protoss went from 200 supply to 100 while mine went from 200 to 190. With all the corresponding messages like... "WTF? how am i supposed to engage that?" and stuff .
Maybe its not like i discovered gunpowder, just like that situations in which you just do something they never seen before and thus fail horribly in the response. But that is good enough i think, so you can do this composition just once in a while to throw them off.
The "transitions" would be something like...
- "Standard" 3 base as usual (and if possible) with a macrohatch.
- As the lair is done i put down the hydra den and almost at the same time the spire (like zenio). (EDITED )
So with ~12 preemptive hydras and a gazillion lings as the push comes you should be able to stop anything until at least a couple collosus are out. But unlike zenio, instead of going mass muta (you can make say... 7 to harrass and force some cannons) you start making corruptors and tech to broods and upgrades while having no more than 18 or 20 hydras, and all the excess gas to corruptors (upgrading armor), and lings as mineral dump.
Hydraling is pretty much untouchable without AOE, so now you just have to delay. Hydraling corruptor can hold pretty well until collosus count is too high or there are templars outthere. And you will be adding spines already.
Then broods, then win .
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Great guide, I <3 banes in zvp but I mainly use them in drops, any reason why your against the drop tech? Since you delay banes so much, wouldnt you be able to afford the drop tech quite easily?
And also, when do you usually take your 3/4/5/6th gases? When is a good time for a macro hatch? I'm sorry, I really want to understand this style and I need to know the very details.
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On May 18 2012 21:22 Br3ezy wrote:
on what map cant a overlord go fast enough? The generous 20% speed buff makes that scenario almost impossible
4 player maps, antiga, taldarim, metalopolis, etc. Unless your overlord finds his base on the first try you are going to have to drone scout or assume he's forge FE'ing.
On May 18 2012 23:51 ElPeque.fogata wrote:Hi BLADE! First of all, thanks for all the guides, you give great value to the community. And i will certainly try to mix in some banelings from now on . Provided you have always been very open about trying new stuff, different compositions, etc, let me invite you to try something out. It's been doing wonders for me in the same late game scenarios, and probably you will be able to refine it a lot better, maybe write your next guide. I'm mid-high Masters NA (just so it is clear this is not a bronze idea ). I've always HATED infestors. I still play mutalingbane vs terran. And vs protoss i always manage to have them feedbacked, or sometimes they are just not enough antiair. Like... infestors die or have depleted mana, and there are still some voidrays in the battle, which means, receiving terrible terrible damage ad infinitum. Infested terrans take time to hatch and usually die before even spawning. Fungaling also takes a lot of time, and depends on the protoss having all of them clumped up. This happens a lot in the "final fight". Voidrays with the momma ship can be a huge pain, as your antiair is usually just corruptors which suck monkeyballs vs voids 1vs1, without mentioning that there are also stalkers, storms, archons, etc also hitting the corruptors. And even if you manage to kill the mommaship/voids with the corruptors in such an inneficient way, you end up with all that wasted supply not participating in the battle. And both corruptors and infestors/broods (and banes) are very gas heavy, so you are usually bankrupt in gas, floating minerals and thus making lings. And you only have "so much" area for lings to cause damage, after a certain amount of lings they will just take turns to hit anything (and die to storms, collosus, etc). SO. All this boils down to... HYDRAS (instead of infestors/banes? in your lategame compo). You are gas starved, and thus 1 infestor can be 3 hydras. Which: - Give your army a lot more hitpoints. - It's garanteed dps, as you will not be insta feedbacked. - The slowness of hydras doesn't matter anymore, as you are escorting broodlords and crawling for the kill. - Concentrated fire guarantee kills, sometimes fungaling just softens many units but kill none, and they regen shields very quickly. For example, if they manage to make a very tight blink under the broods and shift click in all of them, they usually manage to kill most of them. Cause only stalkers at the border of the pack are hit by broodlings, and chain fungals don't kill fast enough (and depend on you being super quick). The stalkers will die, but so will the broods, which are the core of your deathball, without them your cost/effectiveness drops to 10% . And if you get too tight, vortex and storm is super extra effective. With hydras, you have to position and micro differently. You want to be very spread out and have everything on hold position, so nothing gets stacked up (and get vortexed) as the battle begins. And spread hydras i mean SPREAD (preemptively and on hold, like marines expecting the baneling train), so they are not AOEd with collosus or templars. And of course, start adding creep and spines nonstop if you are maxed. I think one of the key things is that with hydras you have good antiair. And thus can both protect both your broodlords and your overseers from blink or air snipes. Losing your overseers to blink or voidrays with a mothership still around, even if you bring another just 10 seconds later can lose you the game right there. As he will be able to move forward and engage your army without being attacked by the broods from the beginning, which makes all the difference in the world, cause the broodlings have that "accumulation" or "critical mass" bonus. And without proper antiair, the protoss can wear you down kitting with 3 or 4 voidrays. Spread out, its a waste of fungals. Corruptors suck against them, at least supply wise (and we are in a maxed situation) and are not "all purpose" like voids are. Even if you kill them, now corruptors are wasted supply. The voids just go back, stalkers get a voley on the corruptors and blink back to escape from broodlings almost for free, as they become cloaked under the mommaship. So the hydra broodlord combination i think is very "stable". There are no split second situations in which you go from being OK to totaly fucked up. (Like all infestors feedbacked, or having no vision against a cloaked army, instalosing all your broods, etc.) Using banes you are always "trading". With hydras you are sometimes even killing "for free", as the broodlings are tanking and the hydras doing massive dps. I will try to upload a couple replays when i get home. I have some in which the protoss went from 200 supply to 100 while mine went from 200 to 190. With all the corresponding messages like... "WTF? how am i supposed to engage that?" and stuff . Maybe its not like i discovered gunpowder, just like that situations in which you just do something they never seen before and thus fail horribly in the response. But that is good enough i think, so you can do this composition just once in a while to throw them off. The "transitions" would be something like... - "Standard" 3 base as usual (and if possible) with a macrohatch. - As the lair is done i put down the hydra den and almost at the same time the spire (like zenio). (EDITED ) So with ~12 preemptive hydras and a gazillion lings as the push comes you should be able to stop anything until at least a couple collosus are out. But unlike zenio, instead of going mass muta (you can make say... 7 to harrass and force some cannons) you start making corruptors and tech to broods and upgrades while having no more than 18 or 20 hydras, and all the excess gas to corruptors (upgrading armor), and lings as mineral dump. Hydraling is pretty much untouchable without AOE, so now you just have to delay. Hydraling corruptor can hold pretty well until collosus count is too high or there are templars outthere. And you will be adding spines already. Then broods, then win .
Thanks! As for hydralisks no I do not think you should make them late game, if anything imo this is one of the worst things to do and thats for 2 huge reasons. Tosses will normally have templar with storm/feedback and colossi. Both of those absolutely tear apart apart hydra's really fast. The only times I could ever see going hydra's is if you killed his army, but you lost a lot of yours and decided to throw them in. Even then I wouldn't recommend it hydra's are really bad especially vs protoss late game xD.
While you may hate infestors, they are honestly the best thing to use and are a lot better then hydra's. Feedback is incredibly powerful that not enough toss players are using though which I agree with a lot as I hate seeing all my infestors just implode from it T_T.
On May 19 2012 00:10 PieTaster wrote:Great guide, I <3 banes in zvp but I mainly use them in drops, any reason why your against the drop tech? Since you delay banes so much, wouldnt you be able to afford the drop tech quite easily? And also, when do you usually take your 3/4/5/6th gases? When is a good time for a macro hatch? I'm sorry, I really want to understand this style and I need to know the very details.
I don't use drop tech as I am almost always gas starved and don't want to pay for overlord drops. I don't like doing baneling drops (other then mineral lines) as I just don't feel it's very good. Whenever I go baneling drops I always lose, just seems toss kinda laugh at that. While I think baneling drops are good in early/mid game but once blink is out along with colossi they like to snipe overlords before you can drop them all and you are going to lose all those overlords almost guaranteed anyway. In general I think part of it is I just suck with baneling drops but I just hate doing it.
Well I either do 2 at 6:15, 3rd/4'th at 7 about, 5'th 6'th I normally get when I have my bases all saturated (and he takes a third).
Belial, I don't feel like quoting your whole post so going to answer it here. I knew he was going to take a third as looking at gateway timings or a robo gives you a lot of time to drone. Even if he was doing the immortal/sentry all in you should be able to get mutalisks out in time (this is assuming he does the typical push with it which hits at about 11:30 and I have never held it with just roach/ling except when toss messes up force fields hardcore).
If you see robo you have a lot of time to drone, more then if he was 7-8 gating as it takes him time to get what he wants. Robo also normally indicates third which is what most tosses do now of days now that they have finally realized how strong toss late game is. You will also be how hard it is to actually punish something you think you can punish easy peasy when he has FF + building wall off (he'll have warp ins as well + some immortals if he is going robo).
Yes you can lose with banelings if you mess up and lose them, but it's a lot easier to keep banelings alive then not getting vortexed. Fungeling mothership works yes, but if toss is doing feedbacks and you don't get to fungel it to delay the mothership (which you can only do so much) he'll eventually get vortex going whether you engage his army or he gets his mothership in front and gets it out. If that happens you have no way to combat it at all, you lose whatever's in that army. Late game it's easy to get 10+ infestors (assuming you don't lose any earlier) and tons of brood with bling support ^^.
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It's nice to backstab with zergling/baneling: if you keep 20 lings out of his vision you can backstab with 5 banes + 15 lings when he moves you and take out the zealot then hunt probes. If he comes back you've bought a lot of time. Plus it can scare protoss into leaving stuff at home so his standing army is weaker.
I think roach/ling/baneling is kind of counting on him not have banelings on his mind but if he's aware it shouldn't be hard to forcefield out the banelings, and if the banelings get impeded for even a few seconds a couple of colossus shots can kill so many.
Nerchio does muta/baneling a lot though and I think it's good cause you have the chance to kill sentries w/ mutas and map control to expand a ton to afford a ton of banes. With a roach/ling style you won't be able to get near as much gas.
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As i promised .
http://drop.sc/183302
The protoss guy was not particularly good (like im not either), but i think the rep shows some of what i'm trying to say.
- hydraling
into
- hydraling corruptor
into
- hydra broodlord / spines
we both did many very silly mistakes all game long, but im specially interested in the last fight.
THE LAST FIGHT
the two big mistakes he did i think is letting my spines root almost completely before attacking and the vortexes were not particularly good. I think he put them so forward because he expected me to leap forward during the attack, but my army was spread out and on hold position.
about the spines, i could have moved them less at a time, so i guess the first big mistake is not that important.
i think a better player could exploit the same idea a lot better
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cool stuff, I saw Dimaga throwing in a bunch of banelings into a vortex a while ago, surely was spectacular :D
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EPT
