EPTMaybe banelings are the answer to vortex though. Its really intersting, I think in a month or two every zerg will either get banes or not to counter vortex, and it sounds like banes are becoming the more poular choice vs more infestor. FB can be gay but I think that the 10+ bl 'counter' ht, you just ff the ht moving up to fb.
[G]Zerg vs Protoss Baneling Revolution - Page 2
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Maybe banelings are the answer to vortex though. Its really intersting, I think in a month or two every zerg will either get banes or not to counter vortex, and it sounds like banes are becoming the more poular choice vs more infestor. FB can be gay but I think that the 10+ bl 'counter' ht, you just ff the ht moving up to fb. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 19 2012 12:56 Belial88 wrote: Woww you hold immortal/sentry allin with mutas? I fiind even if I take my 5 6 gas and then toss does immortal/sentry allin I die. I hold it more than not, but with only by going 4 gas roachling, and making sure not to drone or tech too hard, and eventually burrow move. I've had trouble with double robo immortal all ins though, maybe mutas are good against that? Love to see a re of you holding immortal/sentry allin. Maybe banelings are the answer to vortex though. Its really intersting, I think in a month or two every zerg will either get banes or not to counter vortex, and it sounds like banes are becoming the more poular choice vs more infestor. FB can be gay but I think that the 10+ bl 'counter' ht, you just ff the ht moving up to fb. Well normally I can get muta's in time. But tbh I don't know the best timing as you have to start lair at about 7 minutes to get the mutalisks out in time. Not sure of any other ways as infestors never works for me, roach/hydra can as long as you can avoid an engagement in a choke. It's a stupid push  . Another thing I know that works vs that immortal all in is baneling drops :D. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67148 avenge vs sniper being the best example of the this (avenge all-in immortal/sentry, kills the third, sniper gets burrow move eventually and destroys avenge's army easily when he tries to finish the game, and then he goes on to win later on after retaking his third). ive never really seen hydras work, but i've heard some people say they are the answer (maybe it was you lol). | ||
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grungust
United States325 Posts
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Here's a zvp I just played, 800 pt masters. So I was considering doing your whole baneling thing, i got baneling speed when the big battle occurred (i dont know how important watchign the rep is, i just tell you what happened, its just rep evidence for what i'm saying here). I know 30 banelings is not even 20 supply, but I just am too gas starved when the mothership comes out, and I think more broodlords and infestors are better. I knew he was getting a mothership (he was on 4 bases, if he didnt it would just be easier for me, so i didnt particularly have to scout it), so i got more infestors. In the final battle, I had a ton of queens for support, and lots of broodlords. I know you say FB is a big problem, but that's why I just get a ton of broodlords, and zero corruptors - you just can't FB 10+ infestors when there is queen support, mass spines (i didnt have it this game because the battle happened early, the lategame happened very quickly due to him massing phoenix early game and fast third), and most of all, 13+ broodlords that just prevent anything from getting that close. As he brought his mothership forward to vortex, I FG'd it and just desperately spammed NP NP NP on it. Eventually, I got it. That's all the micro I really did in this battle, a-moved my army, threw down a bunch of IT and FG and spammed transfuse, then when the mothership arrived, I Fg it out of range of my broodlords and spam NP on it until I got one off, and that was GG. I know it can be hard to get a NP into vortex off when you have a ton of colossi, but that's why I made so many infestors and broodlords. Just the mess of it all makes it hard for him to klil ALL of the infestors before one gets a NP off, and if I saw I couldnt get the NP off or his mothership getting too close, I would have backed off and laid down a ton of IT as I retreat. I find the best way to deal with vortex, is more infestors, and really good energy management on your infestors. As long as you are never below about half energy on all your infestors, you should do fine in any battle, because you can just spam ITs and back off. It's when you run out of energy that you are fucked, but it's the trade off of banelings vs more infestors to make sure you never run out of energy. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 20 2012 11:02 Belial88 wrote: http://drop.sc/183540 Here's a zvp I just played, 800 pt masters. So I was considering doing your whole baneling thing, i got baneling speed when the big battle occurred (i dont know how important watchign the rep is, i just tell you what happened, its just rep evidence for what i'm saying here). I know 30 banelings is not even 20 supply, but I just am too gas starved when the mothership comes out, and I think more broodlords and infestors are better. I knew he was getting a mothership (he was on 4 bases, if he didnt it would just be easier for me, so i didnt particularly have to scout it), so i got more infestors. In the final battle, I had a ton of queens for support, and lots of broodlords. I know you say FB is a big problem, but that's why I just get a ton of broodlords, and zero corruptors - you just can't FB 10+ infestors when there is queen support, mass spines (i didnt have it this game because the battle happened early, the lategame happened very quickly due to him massing phoenix early game and fast third), and most of all, 13+ broodlords that just prevent anything from getting that close. As he brought his mothership forward to vortex, I FG'd it and just desperately spammed NP NP NP on it. Eventually, I got it. That's all the micro I really did in this battle, a-moved my army, threw down a bunch of IT and FG and spammed transfuse, then when the mothership arrived, I Fg it out of range of my broodlords and spam NP on it until I got one off, and that was GG. I know it can be hard to get a NP into vortex off when you have a ton of colossi, but that's why I made so many infestors and broodlords. Just the mess of it all makes it hard for him to klil ALL of the infestors before one gets a NP off, and if I saw I couldnt get the NP off or his mothership getting too close, I would have backed off and laid down a ton of IT as I retreat. I find the best way to deal with vortex, is more infestors, and really good energy management on your infestors. As long as you are never below about half energy on all your infestors, you should do fine in any battle, because you can just spam ITs and back off. It's when you run out of energy that you are fucked, but it's the trade off of banelings vs more infestors to make sure you never run out of energy. You were so gas starved because you made so many roaches and kept trying to put on pressure/kill him. Yes getting banelings after making a ton of roaches and keep making roaches is going to leave you more gas starved then normal. Also going mutalisks vs phoenix was a bad idea xD, when I see phoenix (4+) I will make some corruptors and no mutalisks and go straight into infestors. Your infestors were super late as well, almost 16 minutes into the game and 0 infestors. This is very odd to me as you aren't even slowly making infestors it seems you just try to mass them all at once xD. When you get infestors that late you will never be able to afford that because you are spending so much gas to get them all at once more so then slowly. By this I mean, I start off getting 6 infestors and it builds as the game goes on. You have to spend all your gas on them whenever you want them because you dont' build on it, you have 2 by 17 minutes into the game which you should have way more of by then. By 18 you have 9 which is good, but could have had it sooner if you had started infestor production way sooner. Also that toss should not have let that neural work lol. That game in general was kind of a bad one to try to show why you prefer infestors over both. He also let you get 6 bases almost uncontested, idk that game was just kinda bad to showcase why you disagree. If you are going to go heavy roach/ling aggression and not get infestors until 17 minutes into the game then yes getting banelings will be insanely hard, if not impossible if you want brood support ^^. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
You were so gas starved because you made so many roaches and kept trying to put on pressure/kill him. Yes getting banelings after making a ton of roaches and keep making roaches is going to leave you more gas starved then normal. Also going mutalisks vs phoenix was a bad idea xD, when I see phoenix (4+) I will make some corruptors and no mutalisks and go straight into infestors. Well I made a lot of roaches because I felt he took his third too quickly. I think my low supply at the 8:00 mark (i think i was at 58, ugh) and then me droning really hard as opposed to making units in response to his stargate play (i think i droned even past 9:00) resulted in a sort of half-assed play in where I tried to put on pressure, but after I had already droned really hard and made minimal units. Yea, that was probably a bad call I guess, but I was just reacting to what I felt was a greedy fast third. I guess on any other map, what he did would not have worked. I actually originally made that spire for defense against his stargate opener, which was clearly becoming more than just 1 or 2 air units. I made mutas, along with roach/ling, in response to his greedy fast third with no stalkers, but then he made a ton of phoenix. I stopped going mutas and went to infestors immediately. Really, all of this, was based on his stupid third with no units. But I guess I should have figured his phoenixes as proper AA, and with his air fleet, he did have a somewhat normal army value/size taking a third. Plus, that map is just shit for both mutas and aggression, Toss just takes easy third on that map. I should have done as much as possible to race to hive, really. lesson learned. When you get infestors that late you will never be able to afford that because you are spending so much gas to get them all at once more so then slowly. By this I mean, I start off getting 6 infestors and it builds as the game goes on. You have to spend all your gas on them whenever you want them because you dont' build on it, you have 2 by 17 minutes into the game which you should have way more of by then. By 18 you have 9 which is good, but could have had it sooner if you had started infestor production way sooner. My infestors were late due to going mutas. I went mutas only because I saw him take a super fast third. Lesson learned, a ton of stargate units count as army just as much as some stalkers. I just was reacting to his fast third (it wasnt that fast, but kind of fast) and taking it only with like 6 sentries and 2 zealots, then 1-2 immortals. I just really thought he was taking a greedy third, I didn't take into account that those phoenixes just lift up any mass roach or helps against mutas. I generally make a bunch of infestors all at once though. I'll take your tip, I'll tech towards infestors quicker now on, and just build up the count instead of 8+ all at once, and instead use the gas for faster broodlrods. i guess. i dont know, I feel like I dont have trouble. I'll just keep it in mind. Thanks for looking at the rep though. Also that toss should not have let that neural work lol. That game in general was kind of a bad one to try to show why you prefer infestors over both. He also let you get 6 bases almost uncontested, idk that game was just kinda bad to showcase why you disagree. If you are going to go heavy roach/ling aggression and not get infestors until 17 minutes into the game then yes getting banelings will be insanely hard, if not impossible if you want brood support ^^. I'll try to play more games, and see if NP and more infestors doesn't work for me, but I don't really seem to have a problem with vortex. As long as you really respect the mothership, and make sure you always have lots of energy before a battle occurs, if the mothership comes by, you NP it, and if it starts to get too close, you run away and spam IT to cover your retreat. I think the reason I won the game was because Toss invested so much into phoenixes though. You can see he only has 1 colossi when he started to push out, and like 2-3 when the big battle happened. I knew I had won the game the second I saw how many phoenixes he had and him trying to rape my muta flock, especially when he got the anion upgrade. I knew I was behind when I made so many roaches against his third and it doing nothing, so then I went mutas because I figured maybe sentries and the map deny my roach aggression, but it wont deny my mutas. You see my mutas do damage, but then his mass phoenix with 6 range are revealed, and I just basically lol because I know I just fast track to 6 bases, bl/infestor, and win, because he won't have 4+ colossi to push out soon enough. Thats how I got the 6 bases, him going so heavy into air. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
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