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[G]Zerg vs Protoss

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-30 08:55:24
April 08 2011 01:35 GMT
#1
Zerg versus Protoss Guide


Hi guys I got such good positive feedback on my last guide (zvz hatch first vs 14/14 located here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583) that I decided to make one vs protoss.

My other guide for zerg vs terran: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211960

Zerg vs Protoss guide delayed lair: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259629

I am constantly in the top 100 grandmaster on the North american server..

I well be covering a lot of aspects such as the dreaded deathball (colossi/voidray/ground army) with replays. The normal toss ball of stalker/sentry/zealot/colossi, holding off cannon rushes when going hatch first with replays to suite.

I will try to go as in depth as possible. I will answer questions to the best of my knowledge which I feel I did very good at with my first guide.

So this first part will be hatch first and the build I do in like 99% of the games I play when I get my hatch down first.

--------Build--------


9 - overlord
13 - Drone scout (personal preference again like to see if they forge first or not)
15 - hatchery
14- spawning pool (can be 16 if you wish)
17- overlord
17-18- gas
as soon as spawning pool finishes make 2 queens. I add a spine crawler due to the fact that most toss players do a stalker/zealot push when they see hatch first if they don't cannon rush.
22-24- overlord
27-30 (your preference)- Roach warren.


some notes to take from this:
Also to stop pylon blocks, have a drone either on halt position at the ramp, or follow the probe and if he looks like he's going to do it, hold position on ramp!

Grab 2 watch towers with your lings as its useful.
If you can, have an overlord check to see if their taking their natural or not or lings your choice (I do both to make sure they don't cancel it or whatever when possible).
If your lings scout his expansion go up and you run away, check again to make sure its still going. This is to stop if he cancels and decides to go 4 gate.

This build is what I do every game about when i get hatch first down (roach warren comes in good timing to get roaches for 4 gate). You can pick to get ling speed on your preference. I tend to like early roaches more then early speedlings especially vs 4 gate as I find slowlings (till speed finishes) + lots of roaches and 2 spines should hold a 4 gate no problem.

When you get to lair get burrow, and burrow movement asap. This is just incase they do a 5 gate all in or anything to that sort. Doesn't hurt either as burrowed roaches are always useful all game long. Some games you well not see this because I hadn't started doing it till after MLG. I would also add in overlord speed for scouting purposes.

I get my spire at kind of random times normally when I see a robo but don't make corruptors until you see the first colossi.

Lair timing is up to you (if you think dt's are coming of course go lair faster). I personally prefer to go lair later and get a better economy unless I think he's going DT's. This is up to you as the player to what you prefer.

Now that the builds laid down lets go over scenarios.

Unit compositions vs standard protoss play

+ Show Spoiler +

By standard protoss play I am meaning sentry/stalker/colossi/zealot and all that. My unit composition I use is the standard roach/hydra/corruptor. So its nothing new or fancy. While some zerg players think hydra are useless (I do agree they are very weak and way slow but I still think their useful vs gateway units so I add them).

So first thing you should be doing all game is scouting constantly with your lings. Once lair hits and you get overlord speed you should be throwing overlords over the opponent's main to see his tech, his natural, and sometimes into his army.

Once you see the first colossi out, that is when you start making corruptors. You do NOT want to make corruptors blindly as if the opponent is doing a stalker/zealot/sentry/immortal army you will lose. You will get destroyed. So after you see the first colossi out that is when you make corruptors.

Your spire should be done so you shouldn't die to any silly 2 colossi attack or anything.

You should be taking your third base at a decent time. Personally I like to scout his main/nat before taking my third with speed overlord to see if he's possibly doing a 5-6 gate all in. If he is I delay my third and just hold off his attack and then win the game (or get supply capped and lose :D).

You get double evo chambers once you get all 3 bases going with gas as that is when getting upgrades is the right idea. That is at least what I do as roach/hydra/corruptor is pretty gas intensive .

I like to start my hive once I start upgrading 2-2 as it feels like a really good timing to me this is of course personal preference.

Now for the actual engagement of the stalker/zealot/colossi/sentry army. Have your corruptors focus fire the colossi one at a time (have them contaminate to!) and try to engage in a non choke area. If you engage in a choke it will be alot harder for you to fight his army due to the power of force fields.

another thing to note is you should be remacroing out of all your hatcheries as soon as the fighting starts. So your either remaking roaches or hydra's (both) and lings if you don't have the gas. Don't forget to larva inject as well. This is very crucial as his army will probably still kill yours but your reinforcements well take care of the rest.

Now how to fight the dreaded deathball (that being voidray/colossi/etc.


Fighting the Protoss deathball

+ Show Spoiler +
Now this part won't be to detailed sense this pretty much applies almost the same as the normal toss ball.

So killing the dreaded deathball with roach/hydra/corruptor you can not A move. If you just A move your army will be obliterated and he will have almost all of his units still. you have to micro this effectively. You can A move with roach/hydra if you want but corruptors are very very key in this fight. You have to focus the colossi, not the void rays or phoenix if he has those. If you do NOT focus the colossi your army again will be obliterated.

If you focus fire the colossi with corruptors your army should still die but your reinforcements of roach/hydra/lings will take care of his army. As long as your still macroing during the whole fight if he tries to kill you, your reinforcements well kill his army and even if he's on 3 bases you should win no problem as you will be in a very very good position.

If he's on 2 bases well you know you won there's no way he's coming back after losing his 2 base deathball.

And yes there will be replays of me doing this to toss players so don't worry about that ^_^.


Dealing with 4 gate

+ Show Spoiler +
Now with this build dealing with 4 gate isn't that hard as long as you do it correctly. If you know he's going 4 gate or your pretty sure he is, 2 spine crawlers + roaches will hold it. you will get roaches in time for his attack and as long as you don't supply block yourself, engage stupidly you should hold fine. Try to engage his army when you have our spine crawler support.

The only time you should go out and kill it is if your army is stronger and you have no doubts your army will kill it. your speedling upgrade shouldn't be done when he attacks but it will during it and that is fine, roaches work amazing trust me as long as you don't throw them away or anything. There will be couple replays of this in action as well.


Dealing with Cannon rushes

+ Show Spoiler +
Ah the joys of getting your hatch down and what does he do? cannon rush! Yes you can hold off a cannon rush if you do it correctly. For starters don't let him block your ramp with pylons.

You have to pull drones to deal with it until your spawning pool finishes. Once that finishes and you get lings out the game is yours if he is doing an all in cannon rush.

Not much else to say I will have replays to showcase this.


Going Roach/Infestor

+ Show Spoiler +
All right. Going roach/infestor is something people have been wanting me to do and lately been doing it a bit more efficiently then I was before and have a solid build I like when doing this build.

So my overall build is the same as 15 hatch or 15 pool it doesn't matter. but this is what I do.

Get my gas after pool finishes, get ling speed, take 2 guys off of gas and am purely drone pumping. If you think he is doing a 4 gate, keep your guys on gas and make roach/ling to hold off his attack. If he hasn't taken an expansion by 5:30-6:15 I would anticipate an all in so don't over drone and put guys back on gas.

So this is going to be if he does a Forge FE or 3 gate FE. So you put your guys back on gas at about 7:30-8 minutes your preference and get the other 2 gases while you are doing that. You get +1 carapace then go lair. You should place a spore crawler blindly at each base if he forge FE's, if he 3 gate fe's and you see a lot of sentries then no need for spores, if you see very few I would blindly put spores.



After the energy upgrade finishes get Neural parasite (this is good to mind control mass immortals/colossi).

You should be getting +1 melee/carapace upgrades because at the late game broodlords the upgrades help, and an ultra transition with broodlords is super powerful as well if you can't kill him with the first broodlord attack.

You should always be getting those upgrades, and should be mass expanding as you should be very mineral heavy, gas starved. If you see the protoss go for a fast third on a map like taldarim/shakuras, maps with hard to attack thirds due to protoss Force field and what not go lair at about 13-14 minutes and go faster broodlords.

You get tunneling claws and burrow when you feel you can spare the gas/minerals to do so. I am not a fan of it but I know some players are and that is up to you guys.

Don't forget to make 2 spines/1 spore at each base the later the game goes so dt's don't screw you up later ^_^.



Now thats all I can think of right now for hatch first. The 15 pool I will showcase is pretty much the same as hatch first in facing the deathball and all that. The beginnings just a little different so I will really only be showcasing the build.

15 pool


9 - overlord
13 - Drone scout (personal preference again like to see if they forge first or not)
15 - spawning pool
16-17- hatch if possible
17- overlord
17- gas
queen as soon as spawning pool finishes with 4 lings.
make 2nd queen out of main hatchery right before 1st queen spawns.
22-24- overlord
24-27 (your preference)- Roach warren.


This 15 pool you still do the same things to fight deathball/standard protoss armies so not really much to add .

Now for the replays its a whole pack and I named them with 4gate/cannon rush/etc.

Thanks and enjoy, if I get requests I'll try to add more replays as time goes on ^_^.

and again any clarifications, questions, comments, concerns I will answer! I try to answer every question.

Replays:
http://www.mediafire.com/?smuu5h8a1euexpp
http://www.mediafire.com/?n65dc6592y0sh02 (this is zealot/cannon rush!)
http://www.mediafire.com/?2xrbsqvn2hdfrss (roach/infestor)
When I think of something else, something will go here
GinDo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
3327 Posts
April 08 2011 01:59 GMT
#2
Even though I play Terran its a really good write up. Very intresting indeed. If only people dedicated this amount of time to Terran, but i'm guessing they will once MnM stops working in TvP .

Keep up the good work.
ⱩŦ ƑⱠẬ$Ħ / ƩǤ ɈƩẬƉØƝǤ [ɌȻ] / ȊṂ.ṂṼⱣ / ẬȻƩɌ.ȊƝƝØṼẬŦȊØƝ / ẬȻƩɌ.ϟȻẬɌⱠƩŦŦ ϟⱠẬɎƩɌϟ ȻⱠẬƝ
Kojak21
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada1104 Posts
April 08 2011 02:20 GMT
#3
This is gunna help alot, thanks for this
¯\_(☺)_/¯
RAGEMOAR The Pope
Profile Joined February 2011
United States216 Posts
April 08 2011 03:16 GMT
#4
I have a question about your spire timing. I play toss and often throw down my robo while my expo is coming in. The spire timing (according to your build) seems like it would be super early.

Also, I play a 2 robo timing push where I build 5 immortals, 2 colossus and push. If I scout correct, my 2 colossus can push as soon as you pump a round of units (and stalkers can deny scouting info depending on positioning of colossus). Wouldn't it be a better timing to start making a few corruptors once the robotics bay pops and then mass them once a colossus is spotted?
skypig
Profile Joined November 2009
United States237 Posts
April 08 2011 03:20 GMT
#5
Nice guide, blade - I will definitely try to check out your replays, namely of you holding back the cannon rushes.

However I have a question: how does your 15 hatch fair vs. an aggressive 2-gate from P? I recall trying 15 hatch a few times back in the day, and it would get badly shut down by P players who would assume 15 hatch from the Z and punish it with aggressive 2-gate openings...the zealots would overwhelm the nat hatch before spines/lings/queens could defend properly. Of course, I may have just not understood how to counter it properly, but the threat of 2-gate is the one thing that holds me back from attempting any 15 hatch openers vs. P....any clarification on how to deal with this is appreciated; replays are much appreciated as well.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
April 08 2011 03:28 GMT
#6
On April 08 2011 12:20 skypig wrote:
Nice guide, blade - I will definitely try to check out your replays, namely of you holding back the cannon rushes.

However I have a question: how does your 15 hatch fair vs. an aggressive 2-gate from P? I recall trying 15 hatch a few times back in the day, and it would get badly shut down by P players who would assume 15 hatch from the Z and punish it with aggressive 2-gate openings...the zealots would overwhelm the nat hatch before spines/lings/queens could defend properly. Of course, I may have just not understood how to counter it properly, but the threat of 2-gate is the one thing that holds me back from attempting any 15 hatch openers vs. P....any clarification on how to deal with this is appreciated; replays are much appreciated as well.


thanks!

As for your question the only time 2 gate will kill hatch first is if its proxied (which you should know if he's proxying something when you drone scout or overlord), or close positions meta/shattered temple.

If you go hatch first and he's 2 gating at his main you should be fine just make sure to save larva and make a lot of lings (and throw down a spine crawler). That is how you will hold. I haven't faced a 2 gate in a long time but I have held it in the past doing this so I don't think its changed.

I have a question about your spire timing. I play toss and often throw down my robo while my expo is coming in. The spire timing (according to your build) seems like it would be super early.

Also, I play a 2 robo timing push where I build 5 immortals, 2 colossus and push. If I scout correct, my 2 colossus can push as soon as you pump a round of units (and stalkers can deny scouting info depending on positioning of colossus). Wouldn't it be a better timing to start making a few corruptors once the robotics bay pops and then mass them once a colossus is spotted?


Well if your 2 basing (3 gate expo) you kinda have too incase of colossi. Well if you scout the robotics bay you can if you want but it seems no matter how hard toss players have tried vs me so far I always see that first colossi. Most of the time (maybe all) if toss does get robotics bay yeah you can make corruptors as they do tend to go colossi unless their doing some killer mind game. So far doing what i have done having a speed overlord check every so often until I see that first colossi has not failed me yet.

You just dont' want to blindly make a ton of corruptors even seeing that because if they see how many corruptors you have and their first colossi just finished they will probably stop production and make alot of those corruptors useless. Just my thought on it anyway.
When I think of something else, something will go here
Devastate
Profile Joined August 2010
United States25 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-08 03:42:08
April 08 2011 03:28 GMT
#7
Great post! I'll be sure to check out the replays. I'm so frustrated by A-moving deathballs that I've been considering a switch to Toss. Siiigh.

What about Brood Lords? When do you normally get them and when don't you?

blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
April 08 2011 03:41 GMT
#8
On April 08 2011 12:28 Devastate wrote:
Great post! I'll be sure to check out the replays. I'm so frustrated by A-moving deathballs that I've been considering a switch to Toss. Siiigh.

What about Brood Lords? When do you normally get them and when don't you?


later game, as I said I believe I go hive once I start 2-2 normally, get greater spire, and if no big engagement has happened yet I will sacrafice a small portion of my army so i can have supply to make 8 or however many corruptors I have into broods.
When I think of something else, something will go here
Devastate
Profile Joined August 2010
United States25 Posts
April 08 2011 03:42 GMT
#9
Also, in the replay ZvP 4 gate, I saw you only scouted 3 of the 4 gates. With that many sentries out, how did you know it was a 4gate and not a 3 gate expand?
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
April 08 2011 03:48 GMT
#10
On April 08 2011 12:42 Devastate wrote:
Also, in the replay ZvP 4 gate, I saw you only scouted 3 of the 4 gates. With that many sentries out, how did you know it was a 4gate and not a 3 gate expand?


well I never scouted his natural to see his fake expo (mistake on my part obv) but I saw his army moving out (with quiet a few units) with the watch tower. So I assumed he was either 4 gating, or 3 gate pressure expand.

I also do end up scouting his natural, and see no expansion with a ling before his attack giving me the rest of the knowledge I already assumed from seeing his push.
When I think of something else, something will go here
Devastate
Profile Joined August 2010
United States25 Posts
April 08 2011 04:12 GMT
#11
On April 08 2011 12:48 blade55555 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 12:42 Devastate wrote:
Also, in the replay ZvP 4 gate, I saw you only scouted 3 of the 4 gates. With that many sentries out, how did you know it was a 4gate and not a 3 gate expand?


well I never scouted his natural to see his fake expo (mistake on my part obv) but I saw his army moving out (with quiet a few units) with the watch tower. So I assumed he was either 4 gating, or 3 gate pressure expand.

I also do end up scouting his natural, and see no expansion with a ling before his attack giving me the rest of the knowledge I already assumed from seeing his push.


That makes sense, I see. Do you usually pump roaches then just in case? I noticed you'd made a fair few before really scouting anything that would lead one to think an attack was imminent.

Any chance of you doing this for ZvZ or ZvT? Ty for the quality post.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
April 08 2011 04:16 GMT
#12
On April 08 2011 13:12 Devastate wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 12:48 blade55555 wrote:
On April 08 2011 12:42 Devastate wrote:
Also, in the replay ZvP 4 gate, I saw you only scouted 3 of the 4 gates. With that many sentries out, how did you know it was a 4gate and not a 3 gate expand?


well I never scouted his natural to see his fake expo (mistake on my part obv) but I saw his army moving out (with quiet a few units) with the watch tower. So I assumed he was either 4 gating, or 3 gate pressure expand.

I also do end up scouting his natural, and see no expansion with a ling before his attack giving me the rest of the knowledge I already assumed from seeing his push.


That makes sense, I see. Do you usually pump roaches then just in case? I noticed you'd made a fair few before really scouting anything that would lead one to think an attack was imminent.

Any chance of you doing this for ZvZ or ZvT? Ty for the quality post.


I do have a zvz one actually its in the very beginning of the OP. I do plan on doing a zvt as I have gotten alot of good feedback on the zvz, and same with this one via pm's or in topic. ^_^.
When I think of something else, something will go here
me_viet
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia1350 Posts
April 08 2011 04:23 GMT
#13
So I have my reservation about going hatch first against P.

How do you deal with say a slightly early gate at 12, and when the pylon scout finds you hatching first, the P throws down a forge and chrono out the zlots rallied to your base. The timing is such that the zealot should get to your nat just as the cannon is planted or building.

How do you hold this off, since all you'll have will be drones, and you'll be forced to overproduce lings early.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
April 08 2011 04:26 GMT
#14
On April 08 2011 13:23 me_viet wrote:
So I have my reservation about going hatch first against P.

How do you deal with say a slightly early gate at 12, and when the pylon scout finds you hatching first, the P throws down a forge and chrono out the zlots rallied to your base. The timing is such that the zealot should get to your nat just as the cannon is planted or building.

How do you hold this off, since all you'll have will be drones, and you'll be forced to overproduce lings early.


To be honest I haven't faced it in a long time, and over producing lings to hold off the cannon/zealot rush if you hold your still ahead as long as you don't lose too many drones nor your natural hatchery. thats normally a pretty all in thing to do (delays cyber core, no expansion).

The last time someone did zealot/cannon rush I held it off with drone/lings and then proceeded to win the game as he didn't do enough damage. But like I said that was quiet awhile ago haven't faced it sense but I figure if I did the same thing I did before I should be fine.
When I think of something else, something will go here
me_viet
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia1350 Posts
April 08 2011 05:02 GMT
#15
On April 08 2011 13:26 blade55555 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 13:23 me_viet wrote:
So I have my reservation about going hatch first against P.

How do you deal with say a slightly early gate at 12, and when the pylon scout finds you hatching first, the P throws down a forge and chrono out the zlots rallied to your base. The timing is such that the zealot should get to your nat just as the cannon is planted or building.

How do you hold this off, since all you'll have will be drones, and you'll be forced to overproduce lings early.


To be honest I haven't faced it in a long time, and over producing lings to hold off the cannon/zealot rush if you hold your still ahead as long as you don't lose too many drones nor your natural hatchery. thats normally a pretty all in thing to do (delays cyber core, no expansion).

The last time someone did zealot/cannon rush I held it off with drone/lings and then proceeded to win the game as he didn't do enough damage. But like I said that was quiet awhile ago haven't faced it sense but I figure if I did the same thing I did before I should be fine.


I was actually a huge advocate of hatching first as Zerg in all mu if possible, but after doing alot of testing against a few other high Master Zerg player, with me off-racing as P and just doing a 12 gate and forge when 2nd zealot is building, I manage to come out quite ahead in almost all situations tested.

The zerg either loses alot of drones due to increasing zealot number or have to pull so many drones at start. The first cannon WILL go up 90% of the time unless you're willing to ignore the zealot and just target cannon with drones. It just feels like w/e happens, the P comes out ahead, that going pool/gas would be a better opener. I don't feel it's that all-in since, your core will only be slightly delayed, as you'll only be getting one gas. It'll leave min for nexus/gates w/e follow up P wants.

I think of it as, a 1 gate forge FE, but instead of cannoning your own nat, you're cannoning the Zerg's nat. Yes P's tech is delayed a bit, but if Z is only making Zerglings and drones, you only need zealots anyways.


I also distinctly remember Idra mentioning something about him not going hatch first in PvZ due to cannon play by P in some old interviews. Can't remember the exact interview, but that was the final nail in the coffin for me.

Ofc, this doesn't seem to be that common on ladder, so I might not need to worry about it so much. Although, I can't remember the last P that let me planted a hatch on time haha.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
April 08 2011 05:37 GMT
#16
Well Idra tries too hatch first whenever he can, he just doesn't bother if he see's a probe as he assumes they are going to block so he doesn't. I mean just from what I saw in his tournaments and watching his stream alot he looks like he wants too but doens't due to that pesky probe.
When I think of something else, something will go here
BleaK_
Profile Joined November 2010
Norway593 Posts
April 08 2011 05:54 GMT
#17
Ty for this! When do you stop roach production and switch to hydras? And how do you deal with late game DT's?
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
April 08 2011 06:40 GMT
#18
On April 08 2011 14:54 BleaK_ wrote:
Ty for this! When do you stop roach production and switch to hydras? And how do you deal with late game DT's?


Replays showcase DT's actually late game but I didn't say that.

I don't fully switch to hydra I just go roach/hydra and mix in hydra's at a random time.

Later in the game I put a spore crawler + 2 spine crawlers at every base. Should take care of any dt problems just don't forget it ^_^
When I think of something else, something will go here
ZergGrandma
Profile Joined March 2011
5 Posts
April 08 2011 08:05 GMT
#19
Last time I've 15 hatched P just built 3 pilons and blocked me with cannons. So I had to cancel hatch... From now on only 14/15 pool and then hatch vs P.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
April 08 2011 08:07 GMT
#20
On April 08 2011 17:05 ZergGrandma wrote:
Last time I've 15 hatched P just built 3 pilons and blocked me with cannons. So I had to cancel hatch... From now on only 14/15 pool and then hatch vs P.


Have a drone follow the probe thats the solution to that problem and then hold position I should add that to the guide, thanks for the post so i can add that forgot about that ^_^
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