I am constantly in the top 100 grandmaster on the North american server..
I well be covering a lot of aspects such as the dreaded deathball (colossi/voidray/ground army) with replays. The normal toss ball of stalker/sentry/zealot/colossi, holding off cannon rushes when going hatch first with replays to suite.
I will try to go as in depth as possible. I will answer questions to the best of my knowledge which I feel I did very good at with my first guide.
So this first part will be hatch first and the build I do in like 99% of the games I play when I get my hatch down first.
--------Build--------
9 - overlord 13 - Drone scout (personal preference again like to see if they forge first or not) 15 - hatchery 14- spawning pool (can be 16 if you wish) 17- overlord 17-18- gas as soon as spawning pool finishes make 2 queens. I add a spine crawler due to the fact that most toss players do a stalker/zealot push when they see hatch first if they don't cannon rush. 22-24- overlord 27-30 (your preference)- Roach warren.
some notes to take from this: Also to stop pylon blocks, have a drone either on halt position at the ramp, or follow the probe and if he looks like he's going to do it, hold position on ramp!
Grab 2 watch towers with your lings as its useful. If you can, have an overlord check to see if their taking their natural or not or lings your choice (I do both to make sure they don't cancel it or whatever when possible). If your lings scout his expansion go up and you run away, check again to make sure its still going. This is to stop if he cancels and decides to go 4 gate.
This build is what I do every game about when i get hatch first down (roach warren comes in good timing to get roaches for 4 gate). You can pick to get ling speed on your preference. I tend to like early roaches more then early speedlings especially vs 4 gate as I find slowlings (till speed finishes) + lots of roaches and 2 spines should hold a 4 gate no problem.
When you get to lair get burrow, and burrow movement asap. This is just incase they do a 5 gate all in or anything to that sort. Doesn't hurt either as burrowed roaches are always useful all game long. Some games you well not see this because I hadn't started doing it till after MLG. I would also add in overlord speed for scouting purposes.
I get my spire at kind of random times normally when I see a robo but don't make corruptors until you see the first colossi.
Lair timing is up to you (if you think dt's are coming of course go lair faster). I personally prefer to go lair later and get a better economy unless I think he's going DT's. This is up to you as the player to what you prefer.
Now that the builds laid down lets go over scenarios.
By standard protoss play I am meaning sentry/stalker/colossi/zealot and all that. My unit composition I use is the standard roach/hydra/corruptor. So its nothing new or fancy. While some zerg players think hydra are useless (I do agree they are very weak and way slow but I still think their useful vs gateway units so I add them).
So first thing you should be doing all game is scouting constantly with your lings. Once lair hits and you get overlord speed you should be throwing overlords over the opponent's main to see his tech, his natural, and sometimes into his army.
Once you see the first colossi out, that is when you start making corruptors. You do NOT want to make corruptors blindly as if the opponent is doing a stalker/zealot/sentry/immortal army you will lose. You will get destroyed. So after you see the first colossi out that is when you make corruptors.
Your spire should be done so you shouldn't die to any silly 2 colossi attack or anything.
You should be taking your third base at a decent time. Personally I like to scout his main/nat before taking my third with speed overlord to see if he's possibly doing a 5-6 gate all in. If he is I delay my third and just hold off his attack and then win the game (or get supply capped and lose :D).
You get double evo chambers once you get all 3 bases going with gas as that is when getting upgrades is the right idea. That is at least what I do as roach/hydra/corruptor is pretty gas intensive .
I like to start my hive once I start upgrading 2-2 as it feels like a really good timing to me this is of course personal preference.
Now for the actual engagement of the stalker/zealot/colossi/sentry army. Have your corruptors focus fire the colossi one at a time (have them contaminate to!) and try to engage in a non choke area. If you engage in a choke it will be alot harder for you to fight his army due to the power of force fields.
another thing to note is you should be remacroing out of all your hatcheries as soon as the fighting starts. So your either remaking roaches or hydra's (both) and lings if you don't have the gas. Don't forget to larva inject as well. This is very crucial as his army will probably still kill yours but your reinforcements well take care of the rest.
Now how to fight the dreaded deathball (that being voidray/colossi/etc.
Now this part won't be to detailed sense this pretty much applies almost the same as the normal toss ball.
So killing the dreaded deathball with roach/hydra/corruptor you can not A move. If you just A move your army will be obliterated and he will have almost all of his units still. you have to micro this effectively. You can A move with roach/hydra if you want but corruptors are very very key in this fight. You have to focus the colossi, not the void rays or phoenix if he has those. If you do NOT focus the colossi your army again will be obliterated.
If you focus fire the colossi with corruptors your army should still die but your reinforcements of roach/hydra/lings will take care of his army. As long as your still macroing during the whole fight if he tries to kill you, your reinforcements well kill his army and even if he's on 3 bases you should win no problem as you will be in a very very good position.
If he's on 2 bases well you know you won there's no way he's coming back after losing his 2 base deathball.
And yes there will be replays of me doing this to toss players so don't worry about that ^_^.
Now with this build dealing with 4 gate isn't that hard as long as you do it correctly. If you know he's going 4 gate or your pretty sure he is, 2 spine crawlers + roaches will hold it. you will get roaches in time for his attack and as long as you don't supply block yourself, engage stupidly you should hold fine. Try to engage his army when you have our spine crawler support.
The only time you should go out and kill it is if your army is stronger and you have no doubts your army will kill it. your speedling upgrade shouldn't be done when he attacks but it will during it and that is fine, roaches work amazing trust me as long as you don't throw them away or anything. There will be couple replays of this in action as well.
Ah the joys of getting your hatch down and what does he do? cannon rush! Yes you can hold off a cannon rush if you do it correctly. For starters don't let him block your ramp with pylons.
You have to pull drones to deal with it until your spawning pool finishes. Once that finishes and you get lings out the game is yours if he is doing an all in cannon rush.
Not much else to say I will have replays to showcase this.
All right. Going roach/infestor is something people have been wanting me to do and lately been doing it a bit more efficiently then I was before and have a solid build I like when doing this build.
So my overall build is the same as 15 hatch or 15 pool it doesn't matter. but this is what I do.
Get my gas after pool finishes, get ling speed, take 2 guys off of gas and am purely drone pumping. If you think he is doing a 4 gate, keep your guys on gas and make roach/ling to hold off his attack. If he hasn't taken an expansion by 5:30-6:15 I would anticipate an all in so don't over drone and put guys back on gas.
So this is going to be if he does a Forge FE or 3 gate FE. So you put your guys back on gas at about 7:30-8 minutes your preference and get the other 2 gases while you are doing that. You get +1 carapace then go lair. You should place a spore crawler blindly at each base if he forge FE's, if he 3 gate fe's and you see a lot of sentries then no need for spores, if you see very few I would blindly put spores.
After the energy upgrade finishes get Neural parasite (this is good to mind control mass immortals/colossi).
You should be getting +1 melee/carapace upgrades because at the late game broodlords the upgrades help, and an ultra transition with broodlords is super powerful as well if you can't kill him with the first broodlord attack.
You should always be getting those upgrades, and should be mass expanding as you should be very mineral heavy, gas starved. If you see the protoss go for a fast third on a map like taldarim/shakuras, maps with hard to attack thirds due to protoss Force field and what not go lair at about 13-14 minutes and go faster broodlords.
You get tunneling claws and burrow when you feel you can spare the gas/minerals to do so. I am not a fan of it but I know some players are and that is up to you guys.
Don't forget to make 2 spines/1 spore at each base the later the game goes so dt's don't screw you up later ^_^.
Now thats all I can think of right now for hatch first. The 15 pool I will showcase is pretty much the same as hatch first in facing the deathball and all that. The beginnings just a little different so I will really only be showcasing the build.
15 pool
9 - overlord 13 - Drone scout (personal preference again like to see if they forge first or not) 15 - spawning pool 16-17- hatch if possible 17- overlord 17- gas queen as soon as spawning pool finishes with 4 lings. make 2nd queen out of main hatchery right before 1st queen spawns. 22-24- overlord 24-27 (your preference)- Roach warren.
This 15 pool you still do the same things to fight deathball/standard protoss armies so not really much to add .
Now for the replays its a whole pack and I named them with 4gate/cannon rush/etc.
Thanks and enjoy, if I get requests I'll try to add more replays as time goes on ^_^.
and again any clarifications, questions, comments, concerns I will answer! I try to answer every question.
Even though I play Terran its a really good write up. Very intresting indeed. If only people dedicated this amount of time to Terran, but i'm guessing they will once MnM stops working in TvP .
I have a question about your spire timing. I play toss and often throw down my robo while my expo is coming in. The spire timing (according to your build) seems like it would be super early.
Also, I play a 2 robo timing push where I build 5 immortals, 2 colossus and push. If I scout correct, my 2 colossus can push as soon as you pump a round of units (and stalkers can deny scouting info depending on positioning of colossus). Wouldn't it be a better timing to start making a few corruptors once the robotics bay pops and then mass them once a colossus is spotted?
Nice guide, blade - I will definitely try to check out your replays, namely of you holding back the cannon rushes.
However I have a question: how does your 15 hatch fair vs. an aggressive 2-gate from P? I recall trying 15 hatch a few times back in the day, and it would get badly shut down by P players who would assume 15 hatch from the Z and punish it with aggressive 2-gate openings...the zealots would overwhelm the nat hatch before spines/lings/queens could defend properly. Of course, I may have just not understood how to counter it properly, but the threat of 2-gate is the one thing that holds me back from attempting any 15 hatch openers vs. P....any clarification on how to deal with this is appreciated; replays are much appreciated as well.
On April 08 2011 12:20 skypig wrote: Nice guide, blade - I will definitely try to check out your replays, namely of you holding back the cannon rushes.
However I have a question: how does your 15 hatch fair vs. an aggressive 2-gate from P? I recall trying 15 hatch a few times back in the day, and it would get badly shut down by P players who would assume 15 hatch from the Z and punish it with aggressive 2-gate openings...the zealots would overwhelm the nat hatch before spines/lings/queens could defend properly. Of course, I may have just not understood how to counter it properly, but the threat of 2-gate is the one thing that holds me back from attempting any 15 hatch openers vs. P....any clarification on how to deal with this is appreciated; replays are much appreciated as well.
thanks!
As for your question the only time 2 gate will kill hatch first is if its proxied (which you should know if he's proxying something when you drone scout or overlord), or close positions meta/shattered temple.
If you go hatch first and he's 2 gating at his main you should be fine just make sure to save larva and make a lot of lings (and throw down a spine crawler). That is how you will hold. I haven't faced a 2 gate in a long time but I have held it in the past doing this so I don't think its changed.
I have a question about your spire timing. I play toss and often throw down my robo while my expo is coming in. The spire timing (according to your build) seems like it would be super early.
Also, I play a 2 robo timing push where I build 5 immortals, 2 colossus and push. If I scout correct, my 2 colossus can push as soon as you pump a round of units (and stalkers can deny scouting info depending on positioning of colossus). Wouldn't it be a better timing to start making a few corruptors once the robotics bay pops and then mass them once a colossus is spotted?
Well if your 2 basing (3 gate expo) you kinda have too incase of colossi. Well if you scout the robotics bay you can if you want but it seems no matter how hard toss players have tried vs me so far I always see that first colossi. Most of the time (maybe all) if toss does get robotics bay yeah you can make corruptors as they do tend to go colossi unless their doing some killer mind game. So far doing what i have done having a speed overlord check every so often until I see that first colossi has not failed me yet.
You just dont' want to blindly make a ton of corruptors even seeing that because if they see how many corruptors you have and their first colossi just finished they will probably stop production and make alot of those corruptors useless. Just my thought on it anyway.
On April 08 2011 12:28 Devastate wrote: Great post! I'll be sure to check out the replays. I'm so frustrated by A-moving deathballs that I've been considering a switch to Toss. Siiigh.
What about Brood Lords? When do you normally get them and when don't you?
later game, as I said I believe I go hive once I start 2-2 normally, get greater spire, and if no big engagement has happened yet I will sacrafice a small portion of my army so i can have supply to make 8 or however many corruptors I have into broods.
Also, in the replay ZvP 4 gate, I saw you only scouted 3 of the 4 gates. With that many sentries out, how did you know it was a 4gate and not a 3 gate expand?
On April 08 2011 12:42 Devastate wrote: Also, in the replay ZvP 4 gate, I saw you only scouted 3 of the 4 gates. With that many sentries out, how did you know it was a 4gate and not a 3 gate expand?
well I never scouted his natural to see his fake expo (mistake on my part obv) but I saw his army moving out (with quiet a few units) with the watch tower. So I assumed he was either 4 gating, or 3 gate pressure expand.
I also do end up scouting his natural, and see no expansion with a ling before his attack giving me the rest of the knowledge I already assumed from seeing his push.
On April 08 2011 12:42 Devastate wrote: Also, in the replay ZvP 4 gate, I saw you only scouted 3 of the 4 gates. With that many sentries out, how did you know it was a 4gate and not a 3 gate expand?
well I never scouted his natural to see his fake expo (mistake on my part obv) but I saw his army moving out (with quiet a few units) with the watch tower. So I assumed he was either 4 gating, or 3 gate pressure expand.
I also do end up scouting his natural, and see no expansion with a ling before his attack giving me the rest of the knowledge I already assumed from seeing his push.
That makes sense, I see. Do you usually pump roaches then just in case? I noticed you'd made a fair few before really scouting anything that would lead one to think an attack was imminent.
Any chance of you doing this for ZvZ or ZvT? Ty for the quality post.
On April 08 2011 12:42 Devastate wrote: Also, in the replay ZvP 4 gate, I saw you only scouted 3 of the 4 gates. With that many sentries out, how did you know it was a 4gate and not a 3 gate expand?
well I never scouted his natural to see his fake expo (mistake on my part obv) but I saw his army moving out (with quiet a few units) with the watch tower. So I assumed he was either 4 gating, or 3 gate pressure expand.
I also do end up scouting his natural, and see no expansion with a ling before his attack giving me the rest of the knowledge I already assumed from seeing his push.
That makes sense, I see. Do you usually pump roaches then just in case? I noticed you'd made a fair few before really scouting anything that would lead one to think an attack was imminent.
Any chance of you doing this for ZvZ or ZvT? Ty for the quality post.
I do have a zvz one actually its in the very beginning of the OP. I do plan on doing a zvt as I have gotten alot of good feedback on the zvz, and same with this one via pm's or in topic. ^_^.
So I have my reservation about going hatch first against P.
How do you deal with say a slightly early gate at 12, and when the pylon scout finds you hatching first, the P throws down a forge and chrono out the zlots rallied to your base. The timing is such that the zealot should get to your nat just as the cannon is planted or building.
How do you hold this off, since all you'll have will be drones, and you'll be forced to overproduce lings early.
On April 08 2011 13:23 me_viet wrote: So I have my reservation about going hatch first against P.
How do you deal with say a slightly early gate at 12, and when the pylon scout finds you hatching first, the P throws down a forge and chrono out the zlots rallied to your base. The timing is such that the zealot should get to your nat just as the cannon is planted or building.
How do you hold this off, since all you'll have will be drones, and you'll be forced to overproduce lings early.
To be honest I haven't faced it in a long time, and over producing lings to hold off the cannon/zealot rush if you hold your still ahead as long as you don't lose too many drones nor your natural hatchery. thats normally a pretty all in thing to do (delays cyber core, no expansion).
The last time someone did zealot/cannon rush I held it off with drone/lings and then proceeded to win the game as he didn't do enough damage. But like I said that was quiet awhile ago haven't faced it sense but I figure if I did the same thing I did before I should be fine.
On April 08 2011 13:23 me_viet wrote: So I have my reservation about going hatch first against P.
How do you deal with say a slightly early gate at 12, and when the pylon scout finds you hatching first, the P throws down a forge and chrono out the zlots rallied to your base. The timing is such that the zealot should get to your nat just as the cannon is planted or building.
How do you hold this off, since all you'll have will be drones, and you'll be forced to overproduce lings early.
To be honest I haven't faced it in a long time, and over producing lings to hold off the cannon/zealot rush if you hold your still ahead as long as you don't lose too many drones nor your natural hatchery. thats normally a pretty all in thing to do (delays cyber core, no expansion).
The last time someone did zealot/cannon rush I held it off with drone/lings and then proceeded to win the game as he didn't do enough damage. But like I said that was quiet awhile ago haven't faced it sense but I figure if I did the same thing I did before I should be fine.
I was actually a huge advocate of hatching first as Zerg in all mu if possible, but after doing alot of testing against a few other high Master Zerg player, with me off-racing as P and just doing a 12 gate and forge when 2nd zealot is building, I manage to come out quite ahead in almost all situations tested.
The zerg either loses alot of drones due to increasing zealot number or have to pull so many drones at start. The first cannon WILL go up 90% of the time unless you're willing to ignore the zealot and just target cannon with drones. It just feels like w/e happens, the P comes out ahead, that going pool/gas would be a better opener. I don't feel it's that all-in since, your core will only be slightly delayed, as you'll only be getting one gas. It'll leave min for nexus/gates w/e follow up P wants.
I think of it as, a 1 gate forge FE, but instead of cannoning your own nat, you're cannoning the Zerg's nat. Yes P's tech is delayed a bit, but if Z is only making Zerglings and drones, you only need zealots anyways.
I also distinctly remember Idra mentioning something about him not going hatch first in PvZ due to cannon play by P in some old interviews. Can't remember the exact interview, but that was the final nail in the coffin for me.
Ofc, this doesn't seem to be that common on ladder, so I might not need to worry about it so much. Although, I can't remember the last P that let me planted a hatch on time haha.
Well Idra tries too hatch first whenever he can, he just doesn't bother if he see's a probe as he assumes they are going to block so he doesn't. I mean just from what I saw in his tournaments and watching his stream alot he looks like he wants too but doens't due to that pesky probe.
Last time I've 15 hatched P just built 3 pilons and blocked me with cannons. So I had to cancel hatch... From now on only 14/15 pool and then hatch vs P.
On April 08 2011 17:05 ZergGrandma wrote: Last time I've 15 hatched P just built 3 pilons and blocked me with cannons. So I had to cancel hatch... From now on only 14/15 pool and then hatch vs P.
Have a drone follow the probe thats the solution to that problem and then hold position I should add that to the guide, thanks for the post so i can add that forgot about that ^_^
I think you can't really stop cannon rush behind the mineral line. If he puts canon in good position and it blocks it with pylon you are going to cancel hatch for sure. But since only small percentage of tosses do that it's really worth going hatch first.
The replay you included with the cannon rush is on tal darim. One of the easiest maps to get surface area on the cannons. Despite this you were like 5 seconds away from 2 cannons completing with no lings out, if he had placed a 4th cannon instead of a pointless pylon youd have lost the hatch. Do you have more replays of defending this type of rush?
On April 08 2011 17:27 samuraibael wrote: The replay you included with the cannon rush is on tal darim. One of the easiest maps to get surface area on the cannons. Despite this you were like 5 seconds away from 2 cannons completing with no lings out, if he had placed a 4th cannon instead of a pointless pylon youd have lost the hatch. Do you have more replays of defending this type of rush?
I'll try to find more, I know I have them just didn't look want to keep looking haha ^_^
On April 08 2011 17:07 blade55555 wrote: Have a drone follow the probe thats the solution to that problem and then hold position I should add that to the guide, thanks for the post so i can add that forgot about that ^_^
You're welcome. Note that you'll have to send 1 drone for scouting and 1 drone to prevent pylon block and this is loss of minerals not really significant but... Anyway seem my skill doesn't allow me to execute this build properly as just yesterday I lost 4 games subsequently with different cannon rushes.
On April 08 2011 17:07 blade55555 wrote: Have a drone follow the probe thats the solution to that problem and then hold position I should add that to the guide, thanks for the post so i can add that forgot about that ^_^
You're welcome. Note that you'll have to send 1 drone for scouting and 1 drone to prevent pylon block and this is loss of minerals not really significant but... Anyway seem my skill doesn't allow me to execute this build properly as just yesterday I lost 4 games subsequently with different cannon rushes.
Regarding Cannon Rushes What I tend to do against Cannon rushes/Pylon walls is to cancel the 15hatch if I'm not sure I can defend the cannons, remake the hatch at my opponents natural, cancel it and make an Evolution chamber on the creep.
I also do this if somebody randomly blocks my wall without me going 15hatch as I have a scout drone to do that with.
The Protoss is usually either All-Ining with the Cannon rush or more commonly trying to secure his expansion before yours because you are blocked. He has a Forge and maybe a Gateway but not more than that so his tech sucks if you manage to block his expo.
Of course you are going to be a bit behind because you can't keep up the production with only one hatchery, which goes to something that breaks the contain, but the money goes elsewhere like teching.
This is also related to a question from me regarding the same topic: Is this good to do?
A question about Expand -> Robotics I'd also like to ask that what do you do when you see 3gate Expand into Robotics Facility? Or Forge Expand -> Robo if it's any different or even used.
I'm always very hesitant to do anything when I see this because it's so safe and can transition into pretty much everything. I usually make units because I'm pretty much scared and lose because of me not having Drones.
For example against Stargate after expand I'm like "Yeah I know what's up". Same with 5/6gate or fast Twilight Council. I pretty much mass drone against Stargate and go Burrow v. 6gate/DT/Blink if that matters. With Robo I'm just like "wtf" and go into sort of a panic(read: Make units and push... And most of the time lose because my timing was off.)
Myself, with a couple practice partners of mine were thinking about going Spire when I see the 'fast' Robotics, make a bunch of Mutas, transition elsewhere and use the Spire for Corruptors if/when needed.
Is there anything specific that Zerg should do against Expand -> Robotics or should I just continue scouting and go with that?
this build is pool first or am I just illiterate? 15 pool 16 hatch is my favorite opening on a any 4 player map(ZvP). Will normally always send two drones to the natural to try and kill the probe outright or force him out of the block area and ninja the hatch.
I will have to d/l the replays and look. but what is your standard response to forge/nexus or any FE builds? Do you delay lair/gas slightly to keep up on econ? maps like shakuras, tal altar.
Hey blade. I am wondering what You do if you can't get a 15 hatch down, as some people said most P block the expansion with a probe. Most of the time, I get blocked and so I'm forced to throw down pool/gas at 14/15 food. By the time my exp down (20food) there is no way to put spines down in time for the first wave of units. I will post a replay if you would like. Thanks.
its a nice write up but in my personal opinion a guide for the standard play (roach/hydra/corruptor) does not make sense at all as the build is everything else but a guarantee to suceed - i mean we have seen so much examples already where it failed
the question is still why would you drag a game into a mass expansion game when the protoss army gets stronger by every minute?
Hi, I am a zerg with about 730 right now, used to be higher this season. I've been having trouble with lategame protoss armies that you wouldn't typically consider deathballs, which consist almost excusively of blink stalkers and about 5 collosi. It seems that regardless of what I make I just don't have a large enough army to kill this, I usually have ~10 corrupters, 70 drones, 6 bases (a few mined out), and am maxed on hydra/roach but get obliterated, occasionally I can't even kill the collosi.
I've tried broodlords, and ultralisks, but ultras get raped because the blink stalkers keep blinking away before dying, and even with 3/3/3 and the armor upgrade my ultras die so fast. When I go broodlords I feel like I have not enough units ever in the lategame, and usually end up losing 3-4 maxed out armies of various composition, then running out of money and gging out. Any suggestions on how to beat protoss players who rely on heavy upgrades and exclusively blink stalker + collosi?
On April 08 2011 17:07 blade55555 wrote: Have a drone follow the probe thats the solution to that problem and then hold position I should add that to the guide, thanks for the post so i can add that forgot about that ^_^
You're welcome. Note that you'll have to send 1 drone for scouting and 1 drone to prevent pylon block and this is loss of minerals not really significant but... Anyway seem my skill doesn't allow me to execute this build properly as just yesterday I lost 4 games subsequently with different cannon rushes.
What I highly recommend is grab a protoss practice partner and have him cannon rush the shit out of you till you get good at holding it. Thats what I did anyway played like 10+ games to make sure I knew how many drones I had to pull off to hold it off.
Regarding Cannon Rushes What I tend to do against Cannon rushes/Pylon walls is to cancel the 15hatch if I'm not sure I can defend the cannons, remake the hatch at my opponents natural, cancel it and make an Evolution chamber on the creep.
I also do this if somebody randomly blocks my wall without me going 15hatch as I have a scout drone to do that with.
The Protoss is usually either All-Ining with the Cannon rush or more commonly trying to secure his expansion before yours because you are blocked. He has a Forge and maybe a Gateway but not more than that so his tech sucks if you manage to block his expo.
Of course you are going to be a bit behind because you can't keep up the production with only one hatchery, which goes to something that breaks the contain, but the money goes elsewhere like teching.
This is also related to a question from me regarding the same topic: Is this good to do?
In my opinion if the cannon rush succeeds and you have to cancel your hatchery and they block your ramp I feel its almost unwinnable unless the protoss is just bad and has no idea what to do if his opponent doesn't leave the game when it succeeds. Your hatchery cancel into evo chamber I don't see how its bad to do as honestly your already behind and probably going to lose this only gives you I would imagine a little bit better of a chance to come back as he can't take his expo for a little bit as normally if he does a hardcore cannon rush his gateway is very delayed.
A question about Expand -> Robotics I'd also like to ask that what do you do when you see 3gate Expand into Robotics Facility? Or Forge Expand -> Robo if it's any different or even used.
I'm always very hesitant to do anything when I see this because it's so safe and can transition into pretty much everything. I usually make units because I'm pretty much scared and lose because of me not having Drones.
For example against Stargate after expand I'm like "Yeah I know what's up". Same with 5/6gate or fast Twilight Council. I pretty much mass drone against Stargate and go Burrow v. 6gate/DT/Blink if that matters. With Robo I'm just like "wtf" and go into sort of a panic(read: Make units and push... And most of the time lose because my timing was off.)
Myself, with a couple practice partners of mine were thinking about going Spire when I see the 'fast' Robotics, make a bunch of Mutas, transition elsewhere and use the Spire for Corruptors if/when needed.
Is there anything specific that Zerg should do against Expand -> Robotics or should I just continue scouting and go with that?
For the robo if they do 3 gate robo, I just go the usual roach/hydra. If he's trying to go super fast colossi he won't have enough gateway units, and if he's going immortals well Hydra do very well against that.
I do recommend to keep scouting him though with speed overlords and everything to watch when he starts colossi production and adds more gateways. I wouldn't freak out too much about drone production, I almost always tend to put at least 1 spine down just because protoss can do an attack at any time and spine crawlers even 1 scares them especially if they can't see your army they normally pull back.
this build is pool first or am I just illiterate? 15 pool 16 hatch is my favorite opening on a any 4 player map(ZvP). Will normally always send two drones to the natural to try and kill the probe outright or force him out of the block area and ninja the hatch.
I will have to d/l the replays and look. but what is your standard response to forge/nexus or any FE builds? Do you delay lair/gas slightly to keep up on econ? maps like shakuras, tal altar.
This is both 15 pool/15 hatch. 2 different builds but overall the same game plan just slight different openings that I do.
If your forced to 15 pool and can't hatch first and he nexus's first and has a forge or even if I do get my hatch down first I drone super hard and delay lair a little bit. There's no need to go fast lair or make a ton of units as you know he won't be attacking any time soon.
You can probably get a fast third but I still don't know if they decide to do a 5-6 gate all in if you can hold even with burrow roaches against it. But I imagine it would be fine especially if you have 2-3 spine crawlers.
Hey blade. I am wondering what You do if you can't get a 15 hatch down, as some people said most P block the expansion with a probe. Most of the time, I get blocked and so I'm forced to throw down pool/gas at 14/15 food. By the time my exp down (20food) there is no way to put spines down in time for the first wave of units. I will post a replay if you would like. Thanks.
If you see he's blocking your hatch just throw down a 15 pool, delay your gas you really don't need speedlings that badly. If you think he's going to 4 gate (by scouting or something gives it away) throw down 2 spines at your main and transfer them over. Also I do have the build for my 15 pool in the OP, and the roach warren timing is great you'll get roaches out and everything before his units can get to your natural.
the question is still why would you drag a game into a mass expansion game when the protoss army gets stronger by every minute?
Because its almost near impossible to engage a protoss if they do not want to engage your army (FF/small chokes make it suicide). A thing I am trying to start experimenting with is getting drop tech and start harassing them with my main army while dropping 4-8 roaches in their main or something to cause damage. I should start doing this but keep forgetting to mess with it due to me being a robot sometimes :D
Hi, I am a zerg with about 730 right now, used to be higher this season. I've been having trouble with lategame protoss armies that you wouldn't typically consider deathballs, which consist almost excusively of blink stalkers and about 5 collosi. It seems that regardless of what I make I just don't have a large enough army to kill this, I usually have ~10 corrupters, 70 drones, 6 bases (a few mined out), and am maxed on hydra/roach but get obliterated, occasionally I can't even kill the collosi.
I've tried broodlords, and ultralisks, but ultras get raped because the blink stalkers keep blinking away before dying, and even with 3/3/3 and the armor upgrade my ultras die so fast. When I go broodlords I feel like I have not enough units ever in the lategame, and usually end up losing 3-4 maxed out armies of various composition, then running out of money and gging out. Any suggestions on how to beat protoss players who rely on heavy upgrades and exclusively blink stalker + collosi?
Your best bet vs this is roach/hydra, and I would make more then 10 corruptors tbh. 5 Colossi just tear through your army so fast. I would recommend probably at least 15 corruptors, keeping up on upgrades, and dont' engage at your natural! Try to engage him near his base so you have time to get reinforcements. The key thing is to always be macroing during the battle. Make sure your already remaking units the second you start engaging because you should be able to take out the colossi, + alot of his ground army and if he does a counter your reinforcements will kill it.
Don't go Ultra's vs Toss honestly their a joke due to immortals/blink and the new fungel doesn't stun them very long so it makes them even more useless. Also try not to go Broodlords too fast. Broodlords are a great late game army addition but if your trying to get them before engaging him once its kinda hard as normally his colossi count is pretty high you want to try to engage him at least once before making some broodlords at least in my experiance thats how I have done it most of the time.
I think I may have a replay of me vs nydgmma or something where he goes almost pure stalker/colossi on shakuras plateau. But i can't remember if he also added a void ray or 2 but was mostly stalker/colossi.
i tried a lot of different openings and different stuff lately following aggressive paths and this has completely changed my win % against protoss dramatically and i can really recommend it
An excellent, well articulated guide. Thank you. This is basically what I do as well, so I can vouch for its effectiveness, but there are definitely some tips in there that I had not considered and will do so from now on.
A quick question though: you mention a roach/ling/spine for a 4 gate defense, and against blink stalkers you go pure ling/spine. (I don't know if the guide says this, but I watched the replays.) My style of defending 4 gates skips roaches in favor of more lings/spines, similar to a blink stalker defense. Do you believe the roaches are necessary for an optimal 4 gate hold?
On April 09 2011 07:24 Indrium wrote: An excellent, well articulated guide. Thank you. This is basically what I do as well, so I can vouch for its effectiveness, but there are definitely some tips in there that I had not considered and will do so from now on.
A quick question though: you mention a roach/ling/spine for a 4 gate defense, and against blink stalkers you go pure ling/spine. (I don't know if the guide says this, but I watched the replays.) My style of defending 4 gates skips roaches in favor of more lings/spines, similar to a blink stalker defense. Do you believe the roaches are necessary for an optimal 4 gate hold?
Um maybe not I don't like pure speedling builds (the one I do that in is on scrap station and thats because I knew for 100% fact he was doing a blink stalker build saw the twilight council) so thats why i build pure speedlings and 2 spines there. I think roaches are huge in defending as its less larva so if you droned a little to much its no big deal due to how good roaches are when you get a good mass vs 4 gate and with 2 spines + some lings helps alot.
Just personal preference though I know you can do it with just ling/spine.
On April 09 2011 07:24 Indrium wrote: An excellent, well articulated guide. Thank you. This is basically what I do as well, so I can vouch for its effectiveness, but there are definitely some tips in there that I had not considered and will do so from now on.
A quick question though: you mention a roach/ling/spine for a 4 gate defense, and against blink stalkers you go pure ling/spine. (I don't know if the guide says this, but I watched the replays.) My style of defending 4 gates skips roaches in favor of more lings/spines, similar to a blink stalker defense. Do you believe the roaches are necessary for an optimal 4 gate hold?
Um maybe not I don't like pure speedling builds (the one I do that in is on scrap station and thats because I knew for 100% fact he was doing a blink stalker build saw the twilight council) so thats why i build pure speedlings and 2 spines there. I think roaches are huge in defending as its less larva so if you droned a little to much its no big deal due to how good roaches are when you get a good mass vs 4 gate and with 2 spines + some lings helps alot.
Just personal preference though I know you can do it with just ling/spine.
Hmm, alright. Thanks for the input, man. Looking forward to the ZVT guide.
On April 09 2011 07:24 Indrium wrote: An excellent, well articulated guide. Thank you. This is basically what I do as well, so I can vouch for its effectiveness, but there are definitely some tips in there that I had not considered and will do so from now on.
A quick question though: you mention a roach/ling/spine for a 4 gate defense, and against blink stalkers you go pure ling/spine. (I don't know if the guide says this, but I watched the replays.) My style of defending 4 gates skips roaches in favor of more lings/spines, similar to a blink stalker defense. Do you believe the roaches are necessary for an optimal 4 gate hold?
Um maybe not I don't like pure speedling builds (the one I do that in is on scrap station and thats because I knew for 100% fact he was doing a blink stalker build saw the twilight council) so thats why i build pure speedlings and 2 spines there. I think roaches are huge in defending as its less larva so if you droned a little to much its no big deal due to how good roaches are when you get a good mass vs 4 gate and with 2 spines + some lings helps alot.
Just personal preference though I know you can do it with just ling/spine.
Hmm, alright. Thanks for the input, man. Looking forward to the ZVT guide.
Always glad to help I know how frustrating it can be too play zerg at times and what I have been doing has been working very very well for me lately so decided to make a guide for zvz first, got great feedback, this one, and will do a zvt one in the near future .
Also to note I will be uploading more replays later tonight due to requests of a few more cannon rushes and all that thanks again guys for the feedback!
blade! <3
nice guide, man
coming from you mardow thats a great compliment thanks <3.
@ Blade555555 What happens when protoss stays at 2 bases and push out with that 200/200 stalker/sentry/collosus ball of doom? Ideally with 5-6 hallucinated Void Rays.
Where do you put pressure on your enemy? And if you don't, when do you take your 4th? Or don't you take it? It really comes fast. Like minute 22, and if they pylon block your expansion they can expand faster/same time as you.
Also they tend to come out sometimes and do a little pressure, without losing units but just to let you make units.
Where do you engage the first time? Is it right outside their base? How do you reinforce your army? Is it pure Roach?
On April 09 2011 09:05 Koshi wrote: @ Blade555555 What happens when protoss stays at 2 bases and push out with that 200/200 stalker/sentry/collosus ball of doom? Ideally with 5-6 hallucinated Void Rays.
Where do you put pressure on your enemy? And if you don't, when do you take your 4th? Or don't you take it? It really comes fast. Like minute 22, and if they pylon block your expansion they can expand faster/same time as you.
Also they tend to come out sometimes and do a little pressure, without losing units but just to let you make units.
Where do you engage the first time? Is it right outside their base? How do you reinforce your army? Is it pure Roach?
Hi, the 2 base 200/200 deathball all in. I haven't faced that in a long time like at least a month in a half now when I was on korea some protoss did it to me on scrap and how I beat it was roach/hydra mass corruptor, having the corrupters focus down the colossi before going after the void rays (even hallucinated).
You should not win this battle unless you do something godlike but as long as your still macroing roach/hydra probably more favorable on roaches then hydra's you should hold. You have to engage him though as far from your base as possible as you want time to get your reinforcements. If you engage him at your natural your reinforcements will probably be too slow to kill the rest of the army and you'll lose.
I would take a 4'th, going roach/hydra/corruptor + upgrades is really gas intensive and normally you might be floating some minerals so no reason not to get a 4'th especially sense your gonna need to remax off roach/hydra.
Engaging the first time is yes as outside their base as possible but not in like a small choke, try to engage him in as open area as you can if possible or at least the best spot you can get. I do reinforce more heavily on roaches but add a few hydra's as well. As of right now it works amazingly for me.
On April 09 2011 14:36 sagefreke wrote: Do you stop Hydra production when you start seeing Collossi?
not really no, but I don't ever make too many hydra's just because of how fast colossi tears them apart. But I do always make sure to have a decent amount they do so good against gateway units
Just an FYI for the person who asked, I got zealot/forge rushed today and beat it very easily. Don't know if he 12 gated just know I held it and he was super far behind and I got an easy win.
Have you considered more aggressive kinds of play? This kind of guide is certainly interesting, but I also feel it's very limitating, regarding zerg possibilities of play, i.e. only describing the most classical macro defensive kind of play... which is in my opinion not the best ! Why not considering more aggressive strats?
On April 09 2011 15:35 Macpo wrote: Have you considered more aggressive kinds of play? This kind of guide is certainly interesting, but I also feel it's very limitating, regarding zerg possibilities of play, i.e. only describing the most classical macro defensive kind of play... which is in my opinion not the best ! Why not considering more aggressive strats?
because aggressive strats if your opponent plays defensive enough wins the game. Thats all it takes is for the protoss to see it and defend and then he wins. I don't like that style of play. I prefer long macro games where normally the better player wins. Aggression is something i'm adding too a point like dropping to harass but not aggression like that. Because if they shut your aggression down all game your going to lose and just not my style ^_^
On April 09 2011 14:36 sagefreke wrote: Do you stop Hydra production when you start seeing Collossi?
not really no, but I don't ever make too many hydra's just because of how fast colossi tears them apart. But I do always make sure to have a decent amount they do so good against gateway units
can you be a bit more specific on what you mean by 'decent amount'? Do you get a certain # (like 8 or 10)? Do you try to get as many hydras as roaches? Do you base your hydra number on how many colossus he has?
On April 09 2011 14:36 sagefreke wrote: Do you stop Hydra production when you start seeing Collossi?
not really no, but I don't ever make too many hydra's just because of how fast colossi tears them apart. But I do always make sure to have a decent amount they do so good against gateway units
can you be a bit more specific on what you mean by 'decent amount'? Do you get a certain # (like 8 or 10)? Do you try to get as many hydras as roaches? Do you base your hydra number on how many colossus he has?
Well I don't know I just make hydra's but I would say I have more roaches then hydra's. I would watch the replays I have that are there, there are at least 6 i believe should give you a general Idea.
I've tried ling bling, roach bling, roach corrupter type strategies but every top zerg I talk to always seems to recommend to just go roach hydra corrupter. So why do you prefer this style to say roach infestor? What do you do on maps with tiny chokes and an easily grabbable third for the toss? Also why are certain top pros complaining about zvp lately? Morrow has a very solid roach hydra corrupter style but he says you can't beat toss in a macro game. Dimaga says the same thing as well. (Though, he's always had iffy zvp).
On April 10 2011 06:51 Warrior Madness wrote: I've tried ling bling, roach bling, roach corrupter type strategies but every top zerg I talk to always seems to recommend to just go roach hydra corrupter. So why do you prefer this style to say roach infestor? What do you do on maps with tiny chokes and an easily grabbable third for the toss? Also why are certain top pros complaining about zvp lately? Morrow has a very solid roach hydra corrupter style but he says you can't beat toss in a macro game. Dimaga says the same thing as well. (Though, he's always had iffy zvp).
Roach/infestor I feel loses to stalker/sentry/immortal. If the toss makes alot of immortals roaches kind of get crushed and while the infestor buff was nice, I don't think its all that great zvp. I think the infestor is better used in zvt/zvz. From alot of zvp's I have seen, whenever I see a zerg go infestor they normally lose. The only time I really ever saw it "work" was Idra vs Huk but huk kept making colossi to the pure roach/infestor and the game disconnected so no idea how it would have gone but think Idra would have won.
I have seen Idra do it on stream and almost lose after getting a big advantage but the toss just went mass immortal/gateway and almost came back and won because roaches just aren't as effective vs quiet a few immortals.
Just from observing lots of zergs try to go roach/infestor if they don't win early/mid and toss is going lots of immortals seems zerg players lose. Of course patch hasn't been out too long so its possible they just don't know what to do exactly yet but as of right now infestors are not my ideal choice in the mu.
For roach/hydra/corruptor the reason I prefer it is its actually pretty strong, especially if you can engage in an open area. Hydra's do great against gateway units, and roaches do good vs gateway units as well while the corruptors take on the colossi. Its also easier to reinforce when you lose your army.
When going ling/baneling if you lose your army and he's countering your reinforcements aren't as strong as if those reinforcements of yours were roach/hydra instead of ling/infestor.
With maps with lots of small chokes, and easy 3rd I have been playing normally but I think what I need to be adding is drop play. Just dropping 4-8 roaches at the main/third and attacking him if he's using all his units to go back to his main to defend.
A lot of pro's find zvp very hard right now is because the toss deathball is really incredibly strong, FF can be very annoying to deal with as if they can FF your ramp your almost going to lose because they normally have 6 sentries full of energy and it seems as if they can FF forever. Also engaging the toss is hard because even if you get a flank from the front and back they can just FF the whole back way and kill your front army so flanks aren't too useful vs them. I mean it really is an incredibly frustrating match up thats for sure just because of how FF is, and how strong toss armies can get especially late game.
I have not really seen too much of morrow/Dimaga's zvp lately the last zvp I saw of morrow was vs MC and sansenith I think? And I feel he lost due to making some silly decisions in his game in the GSL world team, and vs MC he overdroned and lost too 4 gate and can't remember game 1 of that series.
Really hard to say as unfortunately for me I don't have the practice partners they have I don't play vs axlav/white ra or any of those top level protoss players so I don't have as much knowledge of it except for what I personally find frusterating . I wish I could but as of right now I just play toss players on ladder and their not always the most amazing players.
On April 10 2011 06:51 Warrior Madness wrote: I've tried ling bling, roach bling, roach corrupter type strategies but every top zerg I talk to always seems to recommend to just go roach hydra corrupter. So why do you prefer this style to say roach infestor? What do you do on maps with tiny chokes and an easily grabbable third for the toss? Also why are certain top pros complaining about zvp lately? Morrow has a very solid roach hydra corrupter style but he says you can't beat toss in a macro game. Dimaga says the same thing as well. (Though, he's always had iffy zvp).
i think this strategy is strong if you have the superior macro - if you hit 200 supply when the protoss is on 140-150 but later the deathball will kill too much of your units and you will kill too few and the top protoss player just have similar strong macro skills and timings
if you consider july's playstyle that was quite sucessful in last gsl then not all pros are following this path; you should also not exclude your own experience as you might have more sucess with other strategies you used - if a strategy doesnt fit your playstyle you will probably never perform it well enough
Hey blade5555 thanks for the thorough response, I'm going to watch your replays and reread what you wrote. Seems like every zerg is trying out all sorts of different strategies at the moment but roach hydra corrupter still seems to be the most solid. Maybe it'll just be refined over time i.e. more multiprong drop play as you suggested and maybe better roach burrow micro/snipiing the obs so you can burrow micro your units.
hmm, nice guide, very well made, i have one small question, in the VR/collosus/gateway deathball, do you ever bother to tech to broods, because that will ultimately diminish your corruptor count
On April 10 2011 12:02 Geniuszerg wrote: hmm, nice guide, very well made, i have one small question, in the VR/collosus/gateway deathball, do you ever bother to tech to broods, because that will ultimately diminish your corruptor count
Um not really, not unless I kill like all his voidrays then i'll do a broodlord switch with left over corruptors if I have greater spire done.
I don't like the replay where you defend against the cannon rush. Although you held it off, the proper Protoss build for that doesn't get gas (not needed for cannons or zealots and can transition into an expand much more easily) and is more effective if cannons are placed behind minerals where they are unreachable. I still have not found a replay of a Zerg defending that kind of properly executed attack yet.
In any case, good guide from what I've read so far. I will finish reading the rest of it later.
On April 10 2011 16:43 DImported wrote: I don't like the replay where you defend against the cannon rush. Although you held it off, the proper Protoss build for that doesn't get gas (not needed for cannons or zealots and can transition into an expand much more easily) and is more effective if cannons are placed behind minerals where they are unreachable. I still have not found a replay of a Zerg defending that kind of properly executed attack yet.
In any case, good guide from what I've read so far. I will finish reading the rest of it later.
If your talking bout the zealot/cannon rush. I think he scouted me last that game? so he didn't see my hatch first till after he put down his gas, then saw that i hatched first. From what I gather from protoss players i have talked too if they scout you last and want to cannon rush you they have to cancel their assimilator (which still wastes) unless its already done.
But I have held it I just can't find them because the players i play don't all in cannon rush anymore it seems because they realize how dumb it is or Idk why they don't.
On April 10 2011 16:43 DImported wrote: I don't like the replay where you defend against the cannon rush. Although you held it off, the proper Protoss build for that doesn't get gas (not needed for cannons or zealots and can transition into an expand much more easily) and is more effective if cannons are placed behind minerals where they are unreachable. I still have not found a replay of a Zerg defending that kind of properly executed attack yet.
In any case, good guide from what I've read so far. I will finish reading the rest of it later.
If your talking bout the zealot/cannon rush. I think he scouted me last that game? so he didn't see my hatch first till after he put down his gas, then saw that i hatched first. From what I gather from protoss players i have talked too if they scout you last and want to cannon rush you they have to cancel their assimilator (which still wastes) unless its already done.
But I have held it I just can't find them because the players i play don't all in cannon rush anymore it seems because they realize how dumb it is or Idk why they don't.
What about on a 2 player map like xel naga? I've had a lot of trouble against it when I practised with a friend, because the cannons are timed to finish just after a hatch finishes so they can cancel if you cancel. The cannons tend to be only attackable by one or two drones and the zealot makes it so that your lings have to kill it before they can target cannons. Later, they can just transition into a forge expand build, or a +1 attack 4 gate.
On April 10 2011 16:43 DImported wrote: I don't like the replay where you defend against the cannon rush. Although you held it off, the proper Protoss build for that doesn't get gas (not needed for cannons or zealots and can transition into an expand much more easily) and is more effective if cannons are placed behind minerals where they are unreachable. I still have not found a replay of a Zerg defending that kind of properly executed attack yet.
In any case, good guide from what I've read so far. I will finish reading the rest of it later.
If your talking bout the zealot/cannon rush. I think he scouted me last that game? so he didn't see my hatch first till after he put down his gas, then saw that i hatched first. From what I gather from protoss players i have talked too if they scout you last and want to cannon rush you they have to cancel their assimilator (which still wastes) unless its already done.
But I have held it I just can't find them because the players i play don't all in cannon rush anymore it seems because they realize how dumb it is or Idk why they don't.
What about on a 2 player map like xel naga? I've had a lot of trouble against it when I practised with a friend, because the cannons are timed to finish just after a hatch finishes so they can cancel if you cancel. The cannons tend to be only attackable by one or two drones and the zealot makes it so that your lings have to kill it before they can target cannons. Later, they can just transition into a forge expand build, or a +1 attack 4 gate.
well xelnaga I don't think I ever can hatch first on there as they always block it. Your best bet on holding cannon rushes where they try to abuse it to where they put the cannon in a location where only 1-2 drones can hit it is when you see his pylon warping in (which your overlord should be over it so you see it) you should pull drones of course, and have 1 drone holding position on that spot so that he can't place it there. Thats what I do when I see possible locations to where that cannon will probably go up due to low surround area. Thats your best bet anyway.
If his cannon rush succeeds, your going to lose unless he is kind to let you win or has no idea what to do when zergs don't leave when you've got it.
I recommend getting a protoss practice partner, and on maps you feel cannon rushing is almost impossible to hold practice it over and over, seeing how many drones you can pull to hold it off, and what spots to put a drone to hold position so he can't place one there.
On April 10 2011 16:43 DImported wrote: I don't like the replay where you defend against the cannon rush. Although you held it off, the proper Protoss build for that doesn't get gas (not needed for cannons or zealots and can transition into an expand much more easily) and is more effective if cannons are placed behind minerals where they are unreachable. I still have not found a replay of a Zerg defending that kind of properly executed attack yet.
In any case, good guide from what I've read so far. I will finish reading the rest of it later.
If your talking bout the zealot/cannon rush. I think he scouted me last that game? so he didn't see my hatch first till after he put down his gas, then saw that i hatched first. From what I gather from protoss players i have talked too if they scout you last and want to cannon rush you they have to cancel their assimilator (which still wastes) unless its already done.
But I have held it I just can't find them because the players i play don't all in cannon rush anymore it seems because they realize how dumb it is or Idk why they don't.
What about on a 2 player map like xel naga? I've had a lot of trouble against it when I practised with a friend, because the cannons are timed to finish just after a hatch finishes so they can cancel if you cancel. The cannons tend to be only attackable by one or two drones and the zealot makes it so that your lings have to kill it before they can target cannons. Later, they can just transition into a forge expand build, or a +1 attack 4 gate.
well xelnaga I don't think I ever can hatch first on there as they always block it. Your best bet on holding cannon rushes where they try to abuse it to where they put the cannon in a location where only 1-2 drones can hit it is when you see his pylon warping in (which your overlord should be over it so you see it) you should pull drones of course, and have 1 drone holding position on that spot so that he can't place it there. Thats what I do when I see possible locations to where that cannon will probably go up due to low surround area. Thats your best bet anyway.
If his cannon rush succeeds, your going to lose unless he is kind to let you win or has no idea what to do when zergs don't leave when you've got it.
I recommend getting a protoss practice partner, and on maps you feel cannon rushing is almost impossible to hold practice it over and over, seeing how many drones you can pull to hold it off, and what spots to put a drone to hold position so he can't place one there.
Yup, I'll keep practising with my friend. If you happen to find any replays of you defending this, can you please upload it? I would be really glad to see a zerg hold it off.
Yup of course, just rare for me to get cannon rushed now of days unlike a few months ago but just can't seem to find the replays I do apologize for that :/
Nice guide Blade, I like to do many things similarly. One thing I've been having trouble is with toss 1 base plays and scouting them. I know that if he doesn't take his 2nd gas, most likely a 4gate is coming. But if protoss takes his 2nd gas, and let's say his second unit is a stalker so he kills my scout quickly, there are so many things he could do. He could just 3gate expand (despite making a stalker), he could fake expand into 4/5gate push, he could do 1 gate stargate and get many pheonixes before I have AA and expand on that, he could do some 3gate push with vray support, even dt rush, etc... My scouting options are very limited. 20% of the time I could sacrifice an ovie and see something, but on many maps and positions that is isn't even an option. And, well, checking energy on the nexus....doesn't help much/isn't reliable. One thing I've been playing with is, if I suspect something tricky, making an evo at some set timing, and creating 2/3 spores (1 at main mineral line, 1 at natural, maybe 1 at natural mineral line). I think maybe I could afford to do that since I don't make a roach warren as early as you do, and I usually manage to get the hatch down at 15. What do you think?
This has been my recent strategy vs. toss, going roaches/hydras/corrupters and sniping the colossi. A few questions.
1) How do you feel the new infestor change has affected this matchup, if at all?
2) Have you switched over to infestors and if so how do you incorporate them into your build order (timing and army composition) after opening with this FE build?
On April 12 2011 00:33 CtrlAltDefeat wrote: Nice guide Blade, I like to do many things similarly. One thing I've been having trouble is with toss 1 base plays and scouting them. I know that if he doesn't take his 2nd gas, most likely a 4gate is coming. But if protoss takes his 2nd gas, and let's say his second unit is a stalker so he kills my scout quickly, there are so many things he could do. He could just 3gate expand (despite making a stalker), he could fake expand into 4/5gate push, he could do 1 gate stargate and get many pheonixes before I have AA and expand on that, he could do some 3gate push with vray support, even dt rush, etc... My scouting options are very limited. 20% of the time I could sacrifice an ovie and see something, but on many maps and positions that is isn't even an option. And, well, checking energy on the nexus....doesn't help much/isn't reliable. One thing I've been playing with is, if I suspect something tricky, making an evo at some set timing, and creating 2/3 spores (1 at main mineral line, 1 at natural, maybe 1 at natural mineral line). I think maybe I could afford to do that since I don't make a roach warren as early as you do, and I usually manage to get the hatch down at 15. What do you think?
I would rather make a 3rd queen then making 3 spores. Thats really a waste of money especially if their not going any kind of air or DT's. There are many ways to see if he's doing some sort of 1 base, checking nexus energy is pretty useful normally when they save 75+ before their cyber's done they 4 gate, if you keep running up the ramp with 1 ling tto see what he has, and natural and see he hasn't made an expo yet and its been awhile. Then you know he's doing either DT's or air or 4 gate.
@ Blade
This has been my recent strategy vs. toss, going roaches/hydras/corrupters and sniping the colossi. A few questions.
1) How do you feel the new infestor change has affected this matchup, if at all?
2) Have you switched over to infestors and if so how do you incorporate them into your build order (timing and army composition) after opening with this FE build?
1. I personally don't really use infestors that much except late late game when getting broodlords and stuff I try too add a few. I don't really think going lots of infestors is viable, especially if they decide to get templar and just feedback them all.
2. Guess I answered this in #1 but with broodlords/ultra normally. I don't like infestors too much in zvp, while they work good in zvt/zvz I just don't feel the same about zvp right now ^^.
How do you handle 2 stargate (1 base) whit a wall in/canons? (2/4 void at 7/8 min) When he attacked whit the void, he expanded and make a lot of gateways. I scouted and made more quens and a spore/base, trying to tech to mutas, but i could not hold it. Do i have to tech hydras? don t i loose all map control? or hold it whit spore+queens? I don t want to roach/ling vs his cannons, they are behind a wall and will be an all in, perhap just scare him so he make some stalkers?
On April 12 2011 06:42 macaronij wrote: Thank you very much for these guides!!
How do you handle 2 stargate (1 base) whit a wall in/canons? (2/4 void at 7/8 min) When he attacked whit the void, he expanded and make a lot of gateways. I scouted and made more quens and a spore/base, trying to tech to mutas, but i could not hold it. Do i have to tech hydras? don t i loose all map control? or hold it whit spore+queens? I don t want to roach/ling vs his cannons, they are behind a wall and will be an all in, perhap just scare him so he make some stalkers?
No problem! Glad you enjoy them.
Lets see the first thing to do if your running up the ramp with your lings (1 at a time so they dont' FF all of them ). And you see cannons that should already give you a huge warning that something is coming.
Try to sacrifice an overlord if possible, I would make an evo chamber asap with more queens as well.
You will lose map control, that is fine you have to remember not only do you have your natural already, his might just be starting when he attacks you with his air (assuming he's not all inning). If your scouting overlord can't see whats going on, I would throw down spore crawlers as honestly there's really 2 builds he could be doing that would make him make cannons up the ramp, DT's, or heavy air play.
So either way spore crawlers will help, extra queens of course will help, and once you see if he's actually going air you can mass drone pump (no point in making ling/roach if he's got 2 stargates as he will not be able to afford that with air units + gateway units).
If you want to get spire tech don't make muta's make corruptors as they smash phoenix's, and will smash his voidrays unless he has a lot which he shouldn't have that many off of 1 base. Yeah don't all in, it probably won't work and not really worth it vs a player that knows how to hold it off.
I would personally get hydra's but I prefer roach/hydra right now over muta (but I still do muta builds from time too time although its been awhile haha ). But to hold the initial void rays will I would do a couple spores + queens, and then either go corruptor/muta or hydra whichever you prefer as his gateway tech I believe they delay it and either way his ground force will need time to be made.
So you can have a killer economy with lots of drones, and then going whatever unit composition you want whether that be roach/hydra, muta/ling/roach or whatever. hope this helps you out
On April 12 2011 06:42 macaronij wrote: Thank you very much for these guides!!
How do you handle 2 stargate (1 base) whit a wall in/canons? (2/4 void at 7/8 min) When he attacked whit the void, he expanded and make a lot of gateways. I scouted and made more quens and a spore/base, trying to tech to mutas, but i could not hold it. Do i have to tech hydras? don t i loose all map control? or hold it whit spore+queens? I don t want to roach/ling vs his cannons, they are behind a wall and will be an all in, perhap just scare him so he make some stalkers?
if the protoss has one base and you have 2 there is no map to control; the key is to scout it and react in time; if the protoss makes air from 2 stargates he invests a lot of gas for one base so queens should be enough to hold and a quick lair for hydras; mutas are too risky and not necessary against one base (where would you harass when everything of the protoss is close together?)
Hey blade5555 have you experimented around with bling drops? When the toss is securing his third and you can't really attack into it an you're maxed I think a roach hydra (with a little less hydra) + bling drop composition might work well. Especially if you multiprong drops without taking away from your main army. I've even seen a few zergs who don't go corrupters and just go roach bling hydra. What do you think about that sort of composition/midgame strategy?
On April 15 2011 04:37 Warrior Madness wrote: Hey blade5555 have you experimented around with bling drops? When the toss is securing his third and you can't really attack into it an you're maxed I think a roach hydra (with a little less hydra) + bling drop composition might work well. Especially if you multiprong drops without taking away from your main army. I've even seen a few zergs who don't go corrupters and just go roach bling hydra. What do you think about that sort of composition/midgame strategy?
I do think bling drops are good. I personally don't do them, but I have seen them used too great effect.
I would not get baneling drops over no corruptors though. If a toss knows you do this blink stalkers can shut it down pretty good, and if he spreads his colossi so banelings can't kill them all with splash. I can agree with doing some and corruptors but I wouldn't ever not make corruptors but thats me personally.
as I have said before I have been trying drop play though like trying too incorporate 4 roach drop in main + third and attacking his natural if I see he moves his whole army to take care of one or both. Just things I have been trying too experiment more.
but its a good strategy but I would still get corruptors
As a followup question why do you get hydras anyway? Why can't you just go roach/corrupter with some blings thrown in? If they do some sort of air opening it might be possible to just overwhelm him with burrowed roaches or deny his expo for as long as possible.
On April 15 2011 08:23 Warrior Madness wrote: As a followup question why do you get hydras anyway? Why can't you just go roach/corrupter with some blings thrown in? If they do some sort of air opening it might be possible to just overwhelm him with burrowed roaches or deny his expo for as long as possible.
I go hydra because once the colossi are out of the way they tear through gateway units really well (especially with roach support). I just like it more then roach/bling/corruptor. Idk just don't like doing baneling drops for some reason I couldn't really say why haha ^^.
I don't really have any reason as to why I don't go roach/corruptor/baneling in terms of if I think its bad or anything I haven't really seen it enough too have a comment and haven't tried it too much myself.
Um...one question to ask, can roaches kite zealots off-creep or without speed upgrade before teching to lair? I try to kite, but zealots hit my early roaches...
On April 25 2011 22:09 Chaos_SC2 wrote: Um...one question to ask, can roaches kite zealots off-creep or without speed upgrade before teching to lair? I try to kite, but zealots hit my early roaches...
Um its hard without speed upgrade if they got a ton. You can on creep a little bit but they will catch up eventually. Once speed upgrade is done yeah they kite easily.
too answer your question kind of but not like a marauder with concussive shells could.
On April 27 2011 15:04 Chaos_SC2 wrote: 2 gate seems going to rise again becoz of the new patch...Is there any replay/tutorial against 2 gate as zerg?
Well I haven't faced 2 gate yet, but once the patch comes out and every toss and their grandma starts doing it to me again I"ll definitely add those replays and bump this thread too let people know!
tried doing just about everything, seems like I'm either always behind in workers, or tech, and if I ever try to get one over the other, I lose for it.
tried doing just about everything, seems like I'm either always behind in workers, or tech, and if I ever try to get one over the other, I lose for it.
Well should have control of the watch tower always in the early game! Not a big one but just something I would point out.
throwing down 1 spine crawler is fine, but throwing 2 blindly like that I wouldn't do that, it hurts drone production. Would rather get your roach warren as its better vs 4 gate then blindly throwing down spine crawlers that may not be useful at all if he expands with 3 gate.
Also with that overlord, there's a spot in the corner where you can see if he expo's, and you can keep checking if he's expanding or not. If you see expansion you can drone and not have too pump out too many units. Although I have roaches too be made so I don't have too worry about making zerglings so early.
The zergling attack you did was pretty bad because most of those could have been drones. So you put yourself way behind especially sense he held it off with no damage.
Needed too throw down a spire also! So you could get corruptors. I mean you kind of lost this game when your ling attack failed as that put you so far behind.
Also you over made hydra's, hydra's are ok but having that many won't work out due to colossi ripping you too shreds.
I would try the exact build I posted in the OP and see how you like it. Watching some of the replays I posted might help you a little bit too, too see how I play it.
Hope this helps you out!
Also I'm not in sPs anymore lots of people from that clan left me being like the first .
Yeah I watched a couple of the replays, they helped a lot. I got destroyed on one map by blink stalkers, so I loaded up your "blink stalkers" replay but all you did was mass lings before he even got blink ><
On April 29 2011 04:14 Indrium wrote: Hey blade, do you ever pull guys out of gas? I suppose in any matchup. Looking for your opinion on this. Thanks in advance.
Yeah I do in almost all mu's but not zvz. I mean early game I do it in zvp/zvt sometimes. I do pull guys off gas late game sometimes when I have alot more gas then minerals as I don't see the point in getting more gas when I really need minerals.
I also sometimes only put 1-2 guys on my 2nd/3rd gas guiser as I don't need 3 on gas. I do it randomly just depends what i'm trying too do. An example would be if I was going too do a roach/ling all in. I would take 1 guy off of gas too leave 2 and just attack. Or if you want too do it more ling heavy after your initial roaches you take all guys or 2 of them off of gas.
When you saw he was doing a 4 gate, don't push out with your roaches as that can backfire on you real fast if he FF's those and your going too lose the game doing that.
In the future if you want too see his army or find its location, just send 1 zergling out as its much more effective and safer!
You want too saturate both your bases if possible before making a ton of units (you held his 4 gate, and saw he was expanding he's not gonna push for awhile).
Too see select your mineral drones only and you can see how saturated it is. 24 is saturated but having 21-23 is fine most zergs don't fully saturate both bases but 21-23 drones on both is what you want minerals only, this is not counting gas!
Also again, you go too Hydra heavy. You want hydra's, but not as the main core of your army. You want more roaches then hydra's most of the time (making a ton of hydra's as reinforcements is different but in this early part of the game you don't want too many due to colossi).
Your spire timing was pretty good try too keep that. remember not too make Corruptors until after you see the first colossi out (you do this by running an overlord in his base, find his army, etc.)
Your doing a good job droning up as well and not just stopping completely after awhile. Thats good, you want too try too get 75 drones is always my goal.
You made corruptors way too early this game, and blindly. That is not what you want too do because if he just goes gateway units your army is going to be alot weaker then it should be.
Could have taken your fourth base earlier as well.
You should get overlord speed, and should have drone pumped a little more as 64 drones is too few as the game goes later on.
You also shouldn't be able too afford using 2 macro hatches with your main hatch, work on that macro! You did pretty good otherwise that whole game, but would make less hydra's early (and add them in a little bit later).
And remember to always be macroing, 1 macro hatch is fine, but should not need 3 that is something you should work on. Keep scouting with an overlord through his main, his army and when you see a colossi that is when you should make corruptors imo.
The problem is that at lower levels (plat and below) people make really funky games, as a zerg i sometimes find it difficult to know whether to drone or make army in certain situations, for example in this game a protoss did a 4 gate (which i knew was coming and prepared for) but continued to make probes, poked a bit into my nat and then fell back and expanded.
As i had stopped my drone production completely to make army, i was behind both in economy and army (his greater eco boosted his army). Thus i droned like crazy taking a risk and finaly managed to win. However, watching the replay, i felt so hopeless: he had a HUGE window to just go outright and kill me.
I made those extra queens and the evo chamber because his push wasnt coming and i feared a possible 3 gate+void push.
On reflection i think that, in the future, I will keep making drones one at a time from the 7:00 minute mark if his push doesnt come.
Any advice? (on anything, not only the droning bit)
By the way, in you first replay, the one where the toss faked a 3 gate expo but was 4 gating, how did you know it was a fake? I saw you start making only units and spinecrawlers even when you saw the nexus.
Thankyou for this marvellous guide! And your stream is great, you make it seem so effortless to kill master level protosses
On April 29 2011 04:14 Indrium wrote: Hey blade, do you ever pull guys out of gas? I suppose in any matchup. Looking for your opinion on this. Thanks in advance.
Yeah I do in almost all mu's but not zvz. I mean early game I do it in zvp/zvt sometimes. I do pull guys off gas late game sometimes when I have alot more gas then minerals as I don't see the point in getting more gas when I really need minerals.
I also sometimes only put 1-2 guys on my 2nd/3rd gas guiser as I don't need 3 on gas. I do it randomly just depends what i'm trying too do. An example would be if I was going too do a roach/ling all in. I would take 1 guy off of gas too leave 2 and just attack. Or if you want too do it more ling heavy after your initial roaches you take all guys or 2 of them off of gas.
When you saw he was doing a 4 gate, don't push out with your roaches as that can backfire on you real fast if he FF's those and your going too lose the game doing that.
In the future if you want too see his army or find its location, just send 1 zergling out as its much more effective and safer!
You want too saturate both your bases if possible before making a ton of units (you held his 4 gate, and saw he was expanding he's not gonna push for awhile).
Too see select your mineral drones only and you can see how saturated it is. 24 is saturated but having 21-23 is fine most zergs don't fully saturate both bases but 21-23 drones on both is what you want minerals only, this is not counting gas!
Also again, you go too Hydra heavy. You want hydra's, but not as the main core of your army. You want more roaches then hydra's most of the time (making a ton of hydra's as reinforcements is different but in this early part of the game you don't want too many due to colossi).
Your spire timing was pretty good try too keep that. remember not too make Corruptors until after you see the first colossi out (you do this by running an overlord in his base, find his army, etc.)
Your doing a good job droning up as well and not just stopping completely after awhile. Thats good, you want too try too get 75 drones is always my goal.
You made corruptors way too early this game, and blindly. That is not what you want too do because if he just goes gateway units your army is going to be alot weaker then it should be.
Could have taken your fourth base earlier as well.
You should get overlord speed, and should have drone pumped a little more as 64 drones is too few as the game goes later on.
You also shouldn't be able too afford using 2 macro hatches with your main hatch, work on that macro! You did pretty good otherwise that whole game, but would make less hydra's early (and add them in a little bit later).
And remember to always be macroing, 1 macro hatch is fine, but should not need 3 that is something you should work on. Keep scouting with an overlord through his main, his army and when you see a colossi that is when you should make corruptors imo.
thanks man, great advice overall. I'd say I made too many hydras that game because (and like you point out) hydras wreck gateway units, and since I over-committed on corruptors, he pretty much stopped colossus production. seems like its scouting, timing (spire, expands) and macro I need to work on. Thanks again man!
Whenever I go hatch first i end up getting my expo blocked by a probe or a pylon if he sucks and wants to sidestep the whole probe micro part. What do you do against this? just about every protoss will know when to scout and still be able to reach your natural before a 15 hatch goes down.
Also, the main build I use vP is: 9 ovie 14gas 14pool 15ovie pull drones off gass at 100 gas speed + queen when pool finishes 22 hatch 22 overlord 24 queen put drones back on gas.
On May 08 2011 05:59 loveeholicce wrote: Whenever I go hatch first i end up getting my expo blocked by a probe or a pylon if he sucks and wants to sidestep the whole probe micro part. What do you do against this? just about every protoss will know when to scout and still be able to reach your natural before a 15 hatch goes down.
Also, the main build I use vP is: 9 ovie 14gas 14pool 15ovie pull drones off gass at 100 gas speed + queen when pool finishes 22 hatch 22 overlord 24 queen put drones back on gas.
How do you think this compares to a 15 pool?
The getting hatch first blocked happens alot. hatch first should be used on bigger maps where you can defend vs cannon rushes easy.
I think 15 pool is better for multiple reasons
If he forge FE's, I can double expand (you won't really be able too do this as fast with 14/14). You really don't need speedlings that fast vs toss as you can't really do any damage with them unless your doing an all in roach/ling attack. I prefer 15 pool but 14/14 is fine if you really like too have speedlings sooner.
Also thought I would point out at high masters/grandmaster league this build isn't as good anymore. Now that toss players got better using protoss this style is much harder too pull off. I don't really know whats the best strategy too do vs toss right now at my level of play but when I add that build too the guide. I have tried roach/infestor and just don't' like it at all, I have yet too beat a decent protoss with it so that is not a build I am going too add.
for anyone below those level of play this guide should work out great still ^^.
I don't see burrow/claws anywhere in your roach/infestor section - is that an oversight, or do you not get them at this point? If you don't get them, is there anything you might scout from P that would cause you to get them sooner? I assume you will want them eventually if you see sentries and/or colossi.
On May 27 2011 11:32 Chutoro wrote: I don't see burrow/claws anywhere in your roach/infestor section - is that an oversight, or do you not get them at this point? If you don't get them, is there anything you might scout from P that would cause you to get them sooner? I assume you will want them eventually if you see sentries and/or colossi.
I haven't been getting them when going infestor, I haven't gotten it yet when going roach/infestor but I know I have extra gas to so I am going to start I guess I should add that in :D
The only time I can see getting it first now of days is if he goes 6 gate no robo.
On May 30 2011 05:00 ETisME wrote: any good tips that can handle a death ball which has DTs, stalkers, colossi and sentries?
the overseer always get sniped too easily and colossi and DTs just kill off all the units trapped by FF.
getting 2-3 oversee'rs (and making sure their behind your army so he can't snipe them ). Also infestors with fungel + neural parasite would be very helpful as well in stopping stalker blinking, dt being revealed and neural'ing the colossi. Would be a great unit composition vs this ^^
I have a general question about going Crackling infestor (into Broodlord/Hydra/Infestor), How do you deal with 2 base Templar Tech? DTs are easy enough to deal with, but when I base my play around getting 3/3 cracklings and infestors chargelot/archon/HT seems to give me a rainy day. I've actually yet to figure out a solid play that beats 2 base templar tech without doing some sort of Losira all-in. Generally when I go infestors I get energy first then after I've gotten a few (or are on 3 bases or if I find I have excess gas I get NP). I Don't get a third base until I feel safe, which is generally when I have infestors. Sometimes I take a faster 3rd and go roach hydra corruptor, but that seems to lose a lot because hydras are really bad at reapplying pressure, plus if they go storms fast your army basically insta dies. If I go ling infestor they just 1-shot feedback, it seems the only way to survive is to get burrow before energy and try and do alot of burrow harass before the infestors get more than 90 energy so FB doesn't 1 shot them.
Here is 2 replays of me losing to 3 base and 2 base templar tech. (This isn't like they rush it, but they use it to kill my initial lot of infestors). Basically its like losing your first 12 mutalisk, its a huge investment and they just get 1-shotted.
I know this should not happen against most decent Protosses, but a good way is to just always right click your ground army in front of the deathball to try to get closer before he Force Fields and get a larger attack area from your Hydralisks. Against late-game Blink Stalkers without Sentries I just shift queue them to move in front then attack when microing my Infestors and such.
I find this up to date, most players reading this probably are not experienced enough as Zerg to execute something like Infestor Baneling, and fast Infestors are really situation-dependant and difficult to write a guide on.
On July 15 2011 14:10 Dubpace wrote: Have you made any big changes to this guide since it was written or do you still consider this up to date?
I did some updates about a month ago. Alot of it I still do today and so do other players. I do plan on editing it out and giving a more refined version of my roach/infestor with some replays within the next week so its "more" up to date.
I have a general question about going Crackling infestor (into Broodlord/Hydra/Infestor), How do you deal with 2 base Templar Tech? DTs are easy enough to deal with, but when I base my play around getting 3/3 cracklings and infestors chargelot/archon/HT seems to give me a rainy day. I've actually yet to figure out a solid play that beats 2 base templar tech without doing some sort of Losira all-in. Generally when I go infestors I get energy first then after I've gotten a few (or are on 3 bases or if I find I have excess gas I get NP). I Don't get a third base until I feel safe, which is generally when I have infestors. Sometimes I take a faster 3rd and go roach hydra corruptor, but that seems to lose a lot because hydras are really bad at reapplying pressure, plus if they go storms fast your army basically insta dies. If I go ling infestor they just 1-shot feedback, it seems the only way to survive is to get burrow before energy and try and do alot of burrow harass before the infestors get more than 90 energy so FB doesn't 1 shot them.
Here is 2 replays of me losing to 3 base and 2 base templar tech. (This isn't like they rush it, but they use it to kill my initial lot of infestors). Basically its like losing your first 12 mutalisk, its a huge investment and they just get 1-shotted.
I am going to say I do not go zergling/infestor. I personally think it sucks if the protoss makes the right unit composition (high templar/zealots with archons is very strong vs this composition). imo roach/infestor is the best vs fast templar. They will need to use the templar feedback which is going to take away a storm normally unless they have 200 energy on their templar. It does suck though when your 6 infestors die instantly to feedback thats so much gas wasted and makes me cry but if you are going to go infestors I would go roach/infestor as roaches are very strong vs chargelots/archons and storms aren't as effective.
On July 15 2011 16:47 Mayor wrote: What do you think is better in this MU - the 15 hatch first described or the 15 pool later mentioned in the post?
Very very map dependent. On taldarim I will do it, metal, shattered are 3 ones I will do if they don't block. To stop it you have to pull alot of drones if they cannon rush. But usually 15 pool is probably what you should do most of the time.
If you like to do 15 hatch like me get a protoss practice partner and have him cannon rush you 15+ times in a row until you get good at defending against it. Thats what I did anyway.
very economic. I am a very macro oriented player so all my builds go that way. You can be aggressive while having a good economy and being able to remake your units insanely fast.
You can do many sort of aggressive action, you can do mass drops, trying to take out the third, etc. Just all depends on your playstyle ^_^.
How do you feel about the 3/3 Mass Ling infestor style against protoss? We have obviously seen that it works wonders against terran (Thank you destiny) But I first saw this composition for the purpose of zvp not zvt. I have tried ling infestors but I still seem to get wasted.
On July 15 2011 17:56 SEA_GenesiS wrote: How do you feel about the 3/3 Mass Ling infestor style against protoss? We have obviously seen that it works wonders against terran (Thank you destiny) But I first saw this composition for the purpose of zvp not zvt. I have tried ling infestors but I still seem to get wasted.
I don't like them in zvp or zvt actually. Right now ling/infestor works vs terran but I won't go into how that could not work vs good terrans.
vs Toss templar/zealot/archons will just demolish it. I feel roach/infestor is way way way superior to ling/infestor in every way zerg vs protoss. Just my take on it and I feel vs a good toss who see's ling/infestor templar/chargelot/archons would demolish it, storm + feedback + zealots + archons are so strong ^_^.
roach/hydra is starting to be relevant again because protoss are moving away from the old deathball army into a +2 blink stalker -> templar/archon/stalker mix. However, I still prefer ling heavy armies because of their powerful backstab and hit and run potential. It's fragile in direct engagement but that can be negated with a well-placed fungal and a baneling bomb. Lings and blings are just so much more versatile compared to roaches and hydras which can only do direct attacks or defense.
On July 15 2011 17:56 SEA_GenesiS wrote: How do you feel about the 3/3 Mass Ling infestor style against protoss? We have obviously seen that it works wonders against terran (Thank you destiny) But I first saw this composition for the purpose of zvp not zvt. I have tried ling infestors but I still seem to get wasted.
I don't like them in zvp or zvt actually. Right now ling/infestor works vs terran but I won't go into how that could not work vs good terrans.
vs Toss templar/zealot/archons will just demolish it. I feel roach/infestor is way way way superior to ling/infestor in every way zerg vs protoss. Just my take on it and I feel vs a good toss who see's ling/infestor templar/chargelot/archons would demolish it, storm + feedback + zealots + archons are so strong ^_^.
I wouldn't dismiss ling/infestor as useless. Against protosses who don't go early robo there is a really strong ling/infestor/burrow timing attack that allows you to outright kill the protosses expansion with infested terrans. Also early/mid game lings are still strong. It's only when storm/archons get out that you need roaches. It's also not a composition with which you can just sit back and wait for the toss to go attack you. You have to stay aggressive and use your expandable lings to do damage.
On July 15 2011 17:56 SEA_GenesiS wrote: How do you feel about the 3/3 Mass Ling infestor style against protoss? We have obviously seen that it works wonders against terran (Thank you destiny) But I first saw this composition for the purpose of zvp not zvt. I have tried ling infestors but I still seem to get wasted.
I don't like them in zvp or zvt actually. Right now ling/infestor works vs terran but I won't go into how that could not work vs good terrans.
vs Toss templar/zealot/archons will just demolish it. I feel roach/infestor is way way way superior to ling/infestor in every way zerg vs protoss. Just my take on it and I feel vs a good toss who see's ling/infestor templar/chargelot/archons would demolish it, storm + feedback + zealots + archons are so strong ^_^.
I wouldn't dismiss ling/infestor as useless. Against protosses who don't go early robo there is a really strong ling/infestor/burrow timing attack that allows you to outright kill the protosses expansion with infested terrans. Also early/mid game lings are still strong. It's only when storm/archons get out that you need roaches. It's also not a composition with which you can just sit back and wait for the toss to go attack you. You have to stay aggressive and use your expandable lings to do damage.
You are referring to Destiny's pet, but not only is it not at all refined, but it also only works because no one has seen it before. Destiny knows as much. I promise you it will stop working very quickly. Why? because 2 cannons can cover the entrance on every base besides XNC and Protoss are just greedy right now by not making a decent spread of their cannons.
Furthermore, I watch Huk's play (where most of this occurred) and the only times it won outright were when he was hardcore teching. He never tried a 5/6 gate or a 1 star expand or anything besides expand into blink stalker or templar. It maybe strong regardless, but Destiny had to start going for his timing attack way before he ruled out 6 gate, and 6 gate hits at 9:30, Destiny's hit close to 11 because he gets 1/1 and about 6 infestors.
Hi, I am top 300 zerg.. about cannon rushing I feel you actually have to bring 2 drones against 13 forge or you will lose hatch if he pulls a 2nd probe. You know how you attack follow his probe then when he goes near ramp or near behind hatchery you stop attacking and you right click into the block spot so he can't S then pylon wall. If he, say, goes to the ramp and while he's at the ramp his 2nd probe comes behind the hatch and 3-pylon walls behind there you lose hatch. If he goes behind hatch with 1st probe then 2nd probe comes to bottom of ramp he 3 pylon walls your ramp and you lose the game. Hence you need 2 drones???
You also need a drone patrolling the ramp by 2:10 on every map no matter what. If you do not, you will have a 100% loss rate against 13 forge. Even no gas 14 pool with auto drone pull to fight the most exposed pylon dies to this.
I don't agree with 22-24 overlord. If you 24 overlord off 15 pool 15 gas and hatch without being blocked this is the optimal overlord. 24 overlord with pylon block is still fine, you're hardly supply blocked. Idra 24 overlords off 15pool 15/16 gas every game even if he gets blocked. If you 25 overlord with hatch first 18/19 gas then this is perfect. 24/25 after hatch first is optimal, 25 you're supply blocked for a tiny bit if you went speed before 25 supply and you're mining pure minerals, but this isn't much of a problem as there's no injection popping yet so spawn larvae isn't stymied. 25 is idra's standard no matter what. 24 and you have no supply blockage. This was egmachines standard a few months ago, not sure what it is now.
On July 16 2011 02:45 arbitrageur wrote: Hi, I am top 300 zerg.. about cannon rushing I feel you actually have to bring 2 drones against 13 forge or you will lose hatch if he pulls a 2nd probe. You know how you attack follow his probe then when he goes near ramp or near behind hatchery you stop attacking and you right click into the block spot so he can't S then pylon wall. If he, say, goes to the ramp and while he's at the ramp his 2nd probe comes behind the hatch and 3-pylon walls behind there you lose hatch. If he goes behind hatch with 1st probe then 2nd probe comes to bottom of ramp he 3 pylon walls your ramp and you lose the game. Hence you need 2 drones???
You also need a drone patrolling the ramp by 2:10 on every map no matter what. If you do not, you will have a 100% loss rate against 13 forge. Even no gas 14 with auto drone pull to fight the most exposed pylon dies to this.
I don't get pylon blocked due to using my drone how I do. I can always get it to block the third pylon before it arrives. Also that is why I have an overlord at my natural'ish area. I will see that probe coming and get a drone to the ramp (or on taldarim) to that choke before that probe can get there to pylon block.
I also scout on 14-15 supply also and if I see a forge I will automatically bring a second drone to prepare in any case.
Are you top 300 on NA or SEA? (this is just curiosity!)
On July 16 2011 02:45 arbitrageur wrote: Hi, I am top 300 zerg.. about cannon rushing I feel you actually have to bring 2 drones against 13 forge or you will lose hatch if he pulls a 2nd probe. You know how you attack follow his probe then when he goes near ramp or near behind hatchery you stop attacking and you right click into the block spot so he can't S then pylon wall. If he, say, goes to the ramp and while he's at the ramp his 2nd probe comes behind the hatch and 3-pylon walls behind there you lose hatch. If he goes behind hatch with 1st probe then 2nd probe comes to bottom of ramp he 3 pylon walls your ramp and you lose the game. Hence you need 2 drones???
You also need a drone patrolling the ramp by 2:10 on every map no matter what. If you do not, you will have a 100% loss rate against 13 forge. Even no gas 14 with auto drone pull to fight the most exposed pylon dies to this.
I don't get pylon blocked due to using my drone how I do. I can always get it to block the third pylon before it arrives. Also that is why I have an overlord at my natural'ish area. I will see that probe coming and get a drone to the ramp (or on taldarim) to that choke before that probe can get there to pylon block.
I also scout on 14-15 supply also and if I see a forge I will automatically bring a second drone to prepare in any case.
Are you top 300 on NA or SEA? (this is just curiosity!)
I don't ladder on NA. This was just estimation after I adjusted for population differences between SEA and NA and my experience against NA players.
Oo early drone scouting would solve the 13 forge problem! I'm just wondering, what do you do if you see 1 gas and some chronos on core and normal 12/13 gate? I feel if you mass ling then he just 1 gas 3 gate expos u have to gg... but if you don't mass ling ur dead to 1 gas 4 gate ;SSS And without 14g14p u cant really keep checking his chronos because his zeal stalker will mean ur lings can't keep poking his ramp. Have you solved this?
On July 16 2011 02:45 arbitrageur wrote: Hi, I am top 300 zerg.. about cannon rushing I feel you actually have to bring 2 drones against 13 forge or you will lose hatch if he pulls a 2nd probe. You know how you attack follow his probe then when he goes near ramp or near behind hatchery you stop attacking and you right click into the block spot so he can't S then pylon wall. If he, say, goes to the ramp and while he's at the ramp his 2nd probe comes behind the hatch and 3-pylon walls behind there you lose hatch. If he goes behind hatch with 1st probe then 2nd probe comes to bottom of ramp he 3 pylon walls your ramp and you lose the game. Hence you need 2 drones???
You also need a drone patrolling the ramp by 2:10 on every map no matter what. If you do not, you will have a 100% loss rate against 13 forge. Even no gas 14 with auto drone pull to fight the most exposed pylon dies to this.
I don't get pylon blocked due to using my drone how I do. I can always get it to block the third pylon before it arrives. Also that is why I have an overlord at my natural'ish area. I will see that probe coming and get a drone to the ramp (or on taldarim) to that choke before that probe can get there to pylon block.
I also scout on 14-15 supply also and if I see a forge I will automatically bring a second drone to prepare in any case.
Are you top 300 on NA or SEA? (this is just curiosity!)
I don't ladder on NA. This was just estimation after I adjusted for population differences between SEA and NA and my experience against NA players.
Oo early drone scouting would solve the 13 forge problem! I'm just wondering, what do you do if you see 1 gas and some chronos on core and normal 12/13 gate? I feel if you mass ling then he just 1 gas 3 gate expos u have to gg... but if you don't mass ling ur dead to 1 gas 4 gate ;SSS And without 14g14p u cant really keep checking his chronos because his zeal stalker will mean ur lings can't keep poking his ramp. Have you solved this?
I get a roach warren at a good timing to where I can make roaches if I see he's 4 gating. You can always scout his expansion if he's going to lay one down or not even when your lings are slow.
I have started getting my gas a little earlier so I can get ling speed just in time for a 4 gate but you can scout just fine with slow lings. Sending 1 ling to the top of the ramp is a good idea even if they are slow. If you see a stalker you have to be cautious for a 4 gate.
You should be controlling the watch towers so you can see if he's moving out or warping in units at the tip of his base. Looking for proxy pylons is smart to so that you can kill them before his warp gates finish. Have a ling hang out behind his natural on hold position and see if his nexus goes up. I check with an overlord but you can check with a slowling to if for some reason you can't get an overlord behind his natural without it dying.
You could also sacrifice an overlord while running a ling up the ramp to try and distract him to see if you can see any tech or anything like that. But Yeah I have a roach warren done about 30 seconds before a 4 gate hits I believe so that I can make roaches and use roach/ling to defend against a 4 gate.
This part of the strategy with my roach warren timing I have been doing sense like beta I think when 4 gate was always done 90% of the time.
What do you do against a 6gate timing push? I'm not sure when exactly it's meant to hit, but I lost to it the one time I did face it, cause I was overwhelmed by the number of gateway units that early in the game.
I still don't get how 15 hatch is safe against a cannon rush :/ Especially if they do a "hot bid" cannon rush hiding their cannons behind a wall of minerals and pylons. You won't even have the surface area to deal with the cannons and would be pretty much forced to cancel :/ How would you deal with it?
On July 21 2011 22:52 Ardhimas wrote: What do you do against a 6gate timing push? I'm not sure when exactly it's meant to hit, but I lost to it the one time I did face it, cause I was overwhelmed by the number of gateway units that early in the game.
If they forge fast expanded then it hits at about 9-9:30 minutes. You want to start making units at 8:30 at the latest if you think a 6 gate is coming.
If he 3 gate expanded I imagine it hits at about 8 minutes maybe but I am not really to sure if its the same time or not with 3 gate expand or not xD.
On July 22 2011 00:35 XXhkXX wrote: I still don't get how 15 hatch is safe against a cannon rush :/ Especially if they do a "hot bid" cannon rush hiding their cannons behind a wall of minerals and pylons. You won't even have the surface area to deal with the cannons and would be pretty much forced to cancel :/ How would you deal with it?
Only on a few maps you can hold it. You need to have a drone on hold position in a spot where they can put a cannon and block with pylons. You have to pull a lot of drones if they do the "all inish" type of cannon rush which if you hold puts you in amazing position.
What I would do if I were you, would have a friend cannon rush you like 50 million times in a row until you are used to holding it off. Thats what I did and it helped alot. I would 15 hatch on metal/shattered temple/taldarim are 3 maps I can think of off the top of my head that I will 15 hatch on if I can and they don't block it.
On July 22 2011 00:35 XXhkXX wrote: I still don't get how 15 hatch is safe against a cannon rush :/ Especially if they do a "hot bid" cannon rush hiding their cannons behind a wall of minerals and pylons. You won't even have the surface area to deal with the cannons and would be pretty much forced to cancel :/ How would you deal with it?
Only on a few maps you can hold it. You need to have a drone on hold position in a spot where they can put a cannon and block with pylons. You have to pull a lot of drones if they do the "all inish" type of cannon rush which if you hold puts you in amazing position.
What I would do if I were you, would have a friend cannon rush you like 50 million times in a row until you are used to holding it off. Thats what I did and it helped alot. I would 15 hatch on metal/shattered temple/taldarim are 3 maps I can think of off the top of my head that I will 15 hatch on if I can and they don't block it.
But on a map like taldarim, there are so many spots behind your nat and the little choke between ur nat and ur main. Like he could do a complete wall at your choke or behind the minerals, so would you just have two drones patroling and then pull three more if he cannons anywhere else?
On July 22 2011 00:35 XXhkXX wrote: I still don't get how 15 hatch is safe against a cannon rush :/ Especially if they do a "hot bid" cannon rush hiding their cannons behind a wall of minerals and pylons. You won't even have the surface area to deal with the cannons and would be pretty much forced to cancel :/ How would you deal with it?
Only on a few maps you can hold it. You need to have a drone on hold position in a spot where they can put a cannon and block with pylons. You have to pull a lot of drones if they do the "all inish" type of cannon rush which if you hold puts you in amazing position.
What I would do if I were you, would have a friend cannon rush you like 50 million times in a row until you are used to holding it off. Thats what I did and it helped alot. I would 15 hatch on metal/shattered temple/taldarim are 3 maps I can think of off the top of my head that I will 15 hatch on if I can and they don't block it.
But on a map like taldarim, there are so many spots behind your nat and the little choke between ur nat and ur main. Like he could do a complete wall at your choke or behind the minerals, so would you just have two drones patroling and then pull three more if he cannons anywhere else?
You should pull more then 3 drones if he starts cannoning as odds are he's doing the cannon rush that if fails puts him behind in tech + a base. I would test vs a protoss opponent and have him cannon rush you 50 games in a row until you are a pro at holding it. Or just not do it . But I like going hatch first if possible, and I know other people are like that but if you dont' want to deal with it dont' have to ^^.
On July 15 2011 17:56 SEA_GenesiS wrote: How do you feel about the 3/3 Mass Ling infestor style against protoss? We have obviously seen that it works wonders against terran (Thank you destiny) But I first saw this composition for the purpose of zvp not zvt. I have tried ling infestors but I still seem to get wasted.
I don't like them in zvp or zvt actually. Right now ling/infestor works vs terran but I won't go into how that could not work vs good terrans.
vs Toss templar/zealot/archons will just demolish it. I feel roach/infestor is way way way superior to ling/infestor in every way zerg vs protoss. Just my take on it and I feel vs a good toss who see's ling/infestor templar/chargelot/archons would demolish it, storm + feedback + zealots + archons are so strong ^_^.
I wouldn't dismiss ling/infestor as useless. Against protosses who don't go early robo there is a really strong ling/infestor/burrow timing attack that allows you to outright kill the protosses expansion with infested terrans. Also early/mid game lings are still strong. It's only when storm/archons get out that you need roaches. It's also not a composition with which you can just sit back and wait for the toss to go attack you. You have to stay aggressive and use your expandable lings to do damage.
You are referring to Destiny's pet, but not only is it not at all refined, but it also only works because no one has seen it before. Destiny knows as much. I promise you it will stop working very quickly. Why? because 2 cannons can cover the entrance on every base besides XNC and Protoss are just greedy right now by not making a decent spread of their cannons.
Furthermore, I watch Huk's play (where most of this occurred) and the only times it won outright were when he was hardcore teching. He never tried a 5/6 gate or a 1 star expand or anything besides expand into blink stalker or templar. It maybe strong regardless, but Destiny had to start going for his timing attack way before he ruled out 6 gate, and 6 gate hits at 9:30, Destiny's hit close to 11 because he gets 1/1 and about 6 infestors.
Morrow also uses a similar style. He goes for banelings and drops before infestors though. He also is far more eco orientated.
Is roach/hyrda/corrupter the go-to composition against sentry/stalker/colossus? I played a game today where I went roach/ling/infestor against the protoss army, but got demolished, to the point where he just walked into my base and killed me. I had 90 drones (above the ideal 80?), which may have been too much, but even I don't think 10 more supply would have helped. I'm just so lost in ZvP in terms of just fighting the units. I'm great at getting a strong economy, but I have no idea what to do with it.
On July 25 2011 15:14 KimJongChill wrote: Is roach/hyrda/corrupter the go-to composition against sentry/stalker/colossus? I played a game today where I went roach/ling/infestor against the protoss army, but got demolished, to the point where he just walked into my base and killed me. I had 90 drones (above the ideal 80?), which may have been too much, but even I don't think 10 more supply would have helped. I'm just so lost in ZvP in terms of just fighting the units. I'm great at getting a strong economy, but I have no idea what to do with it.
If you are going roach/hydra/corrupter you need to be dropping multiple places while attacking to make it viable now of days.
with roach/ling/infestor you should do an attack and try to deny his third, at least lowering his colossi count if possible.
Having 90 drones isn't a big deal, 10 supply won't make that big of a difference in a huge fight if your army is getting rolled over.
Thx for ur comprehensive guide. It helps me a lot in climbing the ladder. Now with the new maps do you go 15 pool on all of the new ones or are there some where u prefer the 15 hatch build. Also how do you scout for a 6 gate timing push after a 3gate FE. Have quite severe problems with the scouting part if toss hides a part of the army and sac of an overlord doesn´t reveal too much in most of the cases. And third a more general question. Do you drone up to 24 drones on minerals per base or 24 total (with 16 drones on mins and 6 on gas)?
On August 15 2011 18:35 gsusBTX wrote: Thx for ur comprehensive guide. It helps me a lot in climbing the ladder. Now with the new maps do you go 15 pool on all of the new ones or are there some where u prefer the 15 hatch build. Also how do you scout for a 6 gate timing push after a 3gate FE. Have quite severe problems with the scouting part if toss hides a part of the army and sac of an overlord doesn´t reveal too much in most of the cases. And third a more general question. Do you drone up to 24 drones on minerals per base or 24 total (with 16 drones on mins and 6 on gas)?
He counts his drones by double clicking them. You want to see 2 rows + 6, believe. 9 in each row + 2 in the third row are on minerals. The other 4 are on gas, and the two missing are inside of the geyser.
I think hatch first is plain bad vs protoss. Often their scout gets to their base as you're either about to plant down the hatch or when you have 13 supply, most maps allow forge expands and it's a risk to go hatch first when you know that there might be a forge instead of a gateway.
On August 15 2011 20:26 Olsson wrote: I think hatch first is plain bad vs protoss. Often their scout gets to their base as you're either about to plant down the hatch or when you have 13 supply, most maps allow forge expands and it's a risk to go hatch first when you know that there might be a forge instead of a gateway.
Its actually possible to hold a cannon rush with hatch first. But you do have to defend almost perfectly and there are some maps where you can't defend it of course. But I hatch first if they don't scout me in time so that I can get it down.
If I see the probe I just 15 pool. To hold it off I would recommend practicing with someone and have him do it to you until you get good at holding it off. You do have to pull a good amount of drones but if you do it right you shouldn't lose any and you will be ahead as even though you lose mining time he invests a ton of minerals in the cannons + 2-3 pylons he makes and delays his expansion AND tech.
Its also good to have a drone follow the probe and have the overlord on look for a 2nd probe to try to block off your ramp or something so that you can have a drone on hold position. If it looks like he's going to cannon rush you should have a drone on hold position behind the natural to where they can place 3 pylons and a cannon but nothing can get inside due to the 3 pylons, this will stop him from being able to do it.
Of course its not a have to hatch first its just personal preference, I do it and hold off cannon rushes a lot of the time, but if you do mess up it is an instant loss.
Sorry for the late response to these did not see any replies to this thread till almost 2 weeks later xD.
Thx for ur comprehensive guide. It helps me a lot in climbing the ladder. Now with the new maps do you go 15 pool on all of the new ones or are there some where u prefer the 15 hatch build. Also how do you scout for a 6 gate timing push after a 3gate FE. Have quite severe problems with the scouting part if toss hides a part of the army and sac of an overlord doesn´t reveal too much in most of the cases. And third a more general question. Do you drone up to 24 drones on minerals per base or 24 total (with 16 drones on mins and 6 on gas)?
I do a very delayed lair build (nestea/losira style). I am actually updating the OP with the build I do as I find it super powerful and you just get a ton of minerals and a sick economy. I love it ^_^.
I try to have about 18-20 drones on minerals, 6 on gas. With the new style I am doing I blindly put spore crawlers if I can't scout inside his base (unless I see him chronoing his warpgates + forge then you know he's doing a 6-7 gate timing).
To scout a 6 gate timing after the 3 gate FE, its tough as protoss can really just decide when they feel like attacking. I would recommend making some units and not over droning, maybe making a spine crawler. Just have watch towers under your control so you can see it coming, make sure not to supply block yourself either or its an instant loss xD. Using an overseer is really good as well as the 6 gate will be a little later then if he does the 4 gate push after 3 gate FE.
very helpful guide, i have a thread asking for advice on what to do against protoss,
each time i sense i may be promoted from bronze i get placed against a protoss sliver player and beats me . also id like to add my games seem to take too long, 30-35 minutes, ive seen some master league games and most are finished within 25min,
the timings are key here, im usually unsure of when to attack, sometimes i sit on my 2 bases up until 12minutes without any aggression...
On April 08 2011 12:20 skypig wrote: Nice guide, blade - I will definitely try to check out your replays, namely of you holding back the cannon rushes.
However I have a question: how does your 15 hatch fair vs. an aggressive 2-gate from P? I recall trying 15 hatch a few times back in the day, and it would get badly shut down by P players who would assume 15 hatch from the Z and punish it with aggressive 2-gate openings...the zealots would overwhelm the nat hatch before spines/lings/queens could defend properly. Of course, I may have just not understood how to counter it properly, but the threat of 2-gate is the one thing that holds me back from attempting any 15 hatch openers vs. P....any clarification on how to deal with this is appreciated; replays are much appreciated as well.
I only switched to zerg a month ago(platinum now, was a diamond protoss) and ive been able to hold off aggresive 2 gates (in base) and save my expo. Ive never encountered a proxy one yet, but i imagine you would probably lose your expo as alot of times i barely save mine from the 2 gates in his main , your most likely gonna take some damage to your hatch no matter what unless yoou stop drone production immediately after your pool pops, but it certainly isnt that hard to hold off if a noob zerg like me can do it XD
Lovely guide blade, really really helped me with this MU. However i have a question, have you ever tried zergling bling infestor composition? If you have, will you include that into the OP? If not, will you try it or you just discard them entirely?
Would it be useful to get more drones on minerals, or do you think its a waste? The number im thinking of is 24 on minerals at each base. Why is it not used?
This guide is really outdated It's rare that anyone uses roach/hydra corruptor against the deathball anymore. The guide should be updated with baneling drops and infestor usage, the crux of modern ZvP.
On August 30 2011 14:29 neoghaleon55 wrote: This guide is really outdated It's rare that anyone uses roach/hydra corruptor against the deathball anymore. The guide should be updated with baneling drops and infestor usage, the crux of modern ZvP.
has infestor play, and I released a new zvp guide with infestor play.
On August 30 2011 14:28 firehand101 wrote: Would it be useful to get more drones on minerals, or do you think its a waste? The number im thinking of is 24 on minerals at each base. Why is it not used?
Um about 20 on minerals is fine, you really need gas as you get gas starved and have excess minerals most of the time unless you don't drone enough.
On August 30 2011 14:21 TolEranceNA wrote: Lovely guide blade, really really helped me with this MU. However i have a question, have you ever tried zergling bling infestor composition? If you have, will you include that into the OP? If not, will you try it or you just discard them entirely?
I do not like ling/infestor and blings with drop are good but I don't do it. I prefer roach/infestor a long stronger imo ^^.
ahh the good old days when victory was only a few blinding laser beams, a couple forcefields and a blink or two away and you never needed to worry about your immobile, green-gooed-up collossi turning against you and zergy terrans popping out of the ground ravaging your expos .... . . . . .
This is very very well written. Thanks for this as I am a terran player switching to zerg and definitely looking for guidance. Also the above new guide ^. Just as amazing.
EPT
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. I wish I could but as of right now I just play toss players on ladder and their not always the most amazing players.
